Marriages and Civil Partnerships (Approved Premises) (Amendment) Regulations 2011

Baroness Williams of Crosby Excerpts

Thursday 15th December 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton]

In general terms I can give no assurance that the European courts cannot override the British courts on this. Indeed, they can override this Parliament. However, with respect to the noble Lord, Lord Tebbit, that is not the issue that this House is addressing today. The House is addressing a simple issue of English law and it has been accurately put by the noble Baroness, Lady O’Cathain: does the legislation that we passed give effect to the intention of this House? That is a question of interpretation of English law. I have no doubt that it gives effect to it because it is so clear. I have read both opinions very carefully and my view is not shifted by them.

I make two further points. First, Professor Hill QC and the noble Baroness, Lady O’Cathain, who accurately reflected this argument, said that there was some risk that local authorities would try to punish churches that did not agree to host civil partnerships by saying that they could not have the authority to conduct marriages. I have absolutely no doubt that there is no foundation for that in even the existing law. Section 41 of the Marriages Act 1949 lays down a process whereby there is no discretion in the local registrar, who is a separate person from the local authority. The person who decides whether a church is entitled to solemnise a marriage is not the local authority but the Registrar-General. He has no discretion in that matter once it has been resolved in terms of the statutory requirements. The legal foundation of that does not exist.

The second point made by the learned professor is that the regulations—not the Act—say that an application can be made by a trustee or a proprietor of the church. He gives rise to the possibility of doctrinal debates in churches about this and one trustee applying when the congregation does not want it and the minister or the priest perhaps does not want it. That is a policy consideration that the state has been concerned about and has made specific provision for. The Government say in relation to their response:

“Following concerns about ensuring that the local congregation is made aware of an application in respect of the premises they use for worship, we will make clear in guidance and on the application form that best practice is for the proprietors or trustees of the premises to make their congregation aware … In addition, each application will be required to be advertised by a local authority and is subject to a period of 21 days’ public consultation, providing further safeguards against applications being made without the knowledge of the relevant congregation”.

I do not think there is any statute in the world that would be able to provide for disagreements within a church about doctrinal issues. What the state has done—and I commend the state for it—is to follow the approach taken in the Marriage Act in relation to the solemnisation of marriage, and this has caused no trouble over hundreds and hundreds of years.

My legal opinion is absolutely clear. Although I completely respect the sincerity of the noble Baroness and completely accept the bona fides of the QCs, there is nothing in what they say and you can be confident that, even though I can give no guarantees that nobody will bring litigation—there is bound to be somebody who will—it only requires one case to deal with it.

[Baroness Williams of Crosby]

Before the noble and learned Lord finishes his extraordinarily useful and helpful speech, could I ask him to come back for a moment to one of the issues raised by hundreds of my correspondents—many noble Lords will probably have similar numbers of correspondents on the subject; I have hardly ever seen so many except for health—which is whether the Equality Act, if approached on the grounds of discrimination, would be able to overcome the specific amendment to which he has referred on both major pieces of legislation? It would be helpful for all of us, in replying to that very powerful public opinion, to know the view of the noble and learned Lord—as the previous Lord Chancellor—on this topic.

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton]

My unequivocal view, which I have been trying to express, though rather badly, is that the provision that the noble Lord, Lord Alli, and I have quoted has the effect of making sure that no discrimination proceedings can be brought under the Equality Act or under the convention in English law as a result of a church saying no to civil partnerships being solemnised on their premises. That is the problem and I am absolutely clear that there is no possibility of discrimination legislation, based on the Equality Act, as a result of the drafting of Section 202.

There is also a broader point of principle. We should not, as a House, be knocked off doing what we decided to do by the opinions of two Queen’s Counsels. We should be clear that we achieved our intention. We used simple language. There is no doubt about what it means and I have absolutely no doubt that the courts will give it effect. I have reason to believe that it might be said that it would be quite easy to amend the provisions, using a provision of the Civil Partnerships Act under Section 259. This would take time, but it would be quite easy to do. It is, however, utterly unnecessary because we expressed our views utterly clearly and the courts will give effect to them.

UK Border Security: 30 November

Baroness Williams of Crosby Excerpts

Monday 28th November 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I condemn the strike as it affects our security and the arrangements we are having to make. That is the condemnation I am still waiting to hear from the party opposite.

[Baroness Williams of Crosby]

My Lords, can the Minister tell the House what assurances, if any, we have from schools about the protection of the safety of children, particularly when their parents are at work or may find it difficult to return from work because of the effects of the demonstration? Can he say whether there have been consultations with the Department for Education on this point?

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I am not aware of any consultations with the Department for Education. I will certainly make inquiries and get back to my noble friend later this afternoon. I am sure there will have been discussions for the very reasons my noble friend raises.

Phone Hacking

Baroness Williams of Crosby Excerpts

Tuesday 5th July 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Browning]

My Lords, I have every sympathy for the noble Lord, Lord Prescott, who I believe is himself a victim of this phone-tapping scandal. Phone tapping or hacking is illegal and is not a matter that the Government regard lightly. It is an offence for a person intentionally to intercept without lawful authority any communication in the course of its transmission. That applies equally to the media. The noble Lord asked me about the decision that my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport has to make about BSkyB. The House will be aware that the Secretary of State in that department has to follow guidelines as already set out in law. He will follow those guidelines in making his decision.

[Baroness Williams of Crosby]

My noble friend the Minister is obviously doing everything that she can to try and help the House, but might she consider the very serious situation in which there has been a considerable loss of trust both in police inquiries and in the work of the Press Complaints Commission? In that situation, would the Minister agree that we need a more fundamental look at the whole situation that now confronts us—one in which the media feel that, to some extent, they do not have to abide by the normal rules of civic behaviour in our society? Therefore, should we not very seriously consider the proposal of my noble friend Lord Fowler, given that such an independent complaints committee might recover trust from the public in making recommendations about what should be done?

[Baroness Browning]

I fully understand why my noble friend raises the issue of trust, because from the beginning these matters have been conducted in ways which have given the public great concern. If I may, let me quote to my noble friend the words of Sir Paul Stephenson, given that the Met is now conducting a very robust and vigorous investigation, whose conclusions, once made, will be ones on which I believe we can rely. Sir Paul Stephenson has said that questions should be asked once the criminal inquiry and any judicial process have been concluded. As I mentioned, the police investigation is ongoing and it is a matter for that inquiry and that investigation to conclude. At that point, Sir Paul Stephenson said, questions should be asked. I can assure the House that we will consider the outcome of police investigations as well as other inquiries that are under way. I am not saying to the House today that we will not have an inquiry, but while police investigations are under way I cannot be pressed on that.

Immigration: Deportation

Baroness Williams of Crosby Excerpts

Tuesday 2nd November 2010 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Neville-Jones]

I hope the noble Baroness will forgive me, but I did not hear all her question, although I heard the last part. One of our objectives is not to be put in a position where any pain-induced compliance technique has to be used. As a result of this latest incident, not only have we gone through with all escorting officers their duties and the methods of restraint they use, but we have taken them all the way through in detail with particular emphasis on the health and safety aspects of the job, including positional asphyxia, which is a particular source of attention at the moment. We clearly need to have extremely well informed and educated guards on duty.

[Baroness Williams of Crosby]

May I express to the Minister our appreciation for the energetic way in which she has followed up the concerns of the House? Will she consider allowing the guidance offered by the UK Border Agency to private companies, which is currently not in the public domain, to be made available in the Library to Members of both Houses? That would help us in sustaining the very high standards that she wants to see.

[Baroness Neville-Jones]

I think that is a perfectly reasonable request and I shall see that it is done.

Statement of Changes in Immigration Rules (Cm 7944)

Baroness Williams of Crosby Excerpts

Monday 25th October 2010 Lords Chamber

We need to be careful about just thinking that new rules can create new solutions. There are some huge cultural and educational issues involved in the whole story of migration.

[Baroness Williams of Crosby]

My Lords, I shall be brief and make just two points. The first concerns the issue of the cap, and on this one I have some sympathy with the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, particularly about the effects of the cap on universities, especially their science departments, at a time when the universities themselves are going through the turmoil of a totally different system of paying for university studies and a sharp decline in the proportion of money made available for teaching. That means that the research standards of universities have become even more important than they were before in terms of attracting the many overseas students who today, frankly, sustain many of our universities and are expected to continue to sustain them. I am not talking about permanent residents but about people who come to our universities as a matter of choice for the length of their degree.

Anyone who knows the universities, particularly the more renowned ones, will be aware that in their scientific departments there is a substantial proportion of young men and women who have come here to study for PhDs and have then stayed on, with the agreement of the British Government, in order to strengthen the quality, the standard and the excellence of those university departments. Whether we like it or not, university teaching is today a substantial element in the prosperity of the whole British economy.

We should not get absorbed into the idea that a cap is something separate from the standing and the attraction of some of our most significant educational institutions. Immigration is central to them; it is a fundamental part of their presentation to a world in which they are still regarded as being second only to the great universities of the United States. That could all quickly disappear if we start trying to cull people of quality who would otherwise have stayed, taught and continued to do research.

My second point follows more closely the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Hylton, who I am sorry to see is not in his place—no, he is back in his place; I am very pleased—which have also been supported by the noble Lord, Lord Judd. Quite simply, as a Government and as a country, we cannot easily go on about the sacred nature of marriage and how much we believe in it and are going to support it, while indicating to some of the most desperate people in the world that they are not going to be part of that privileged state of human existence. It would be particularly difficult not to seem hypocritical when making such a sharp distinction between those who come to this country in an attempt to join husbands or wives who are refugees—especially refugees whose position has been accepted, which is why they have been granted, or may be capable of being granted, British citizenship.

I shall give one example, not least because tomorrow morning there will be a memorial service for a great former Member of this House, Baroness Park of Monmouth, who during her time in the House, from the moment when Zimbabwe stopped being a nation that accepted democracy, fought for the right of Zimbabwean citizens to be left in this country to be able to pursue their opposition to Mr Mugabe’s Government, fought for them to have the right to have their families with them and persuaded that most difficult of departments, the Home Office, to support them until such time as Zimbabwe could guarantee their freedom and safety, neither of which it has been effectively able to do up to this moment.

I mention Baroness Park because of one of her recommendations. She said that refugees are often the most brave, courageous and determined members of their own societies—people who have tried to seek asylum because they have supported democracy and the values of the European court and the European Convention on Human Rights. To deny people with such a powerful right that they have been accepted for citizenship of this country the ability to remain married to the people that they are married to, and bring up their children in a united family, is an extraordinary and last-minute kind of inhumanity. I therefore beg the Government, on both the economic point, which I have made in the context of universities, and the human point, to reconsider what they are trying to do. I do not believe that if such a case were to proceed to the European Court of Human Rights it would be anything other than rejected. There are other, and far more humane, ways to limit immigration if that is what we are thinking of. The way that has been chosen here is very unfortunate and the Government will long find it difficult to justify.

I say clearly that I do not believe that the previous Government had a very good record on immigration. I would be very sorry to see the new coalition Government follow in a tradition that has always been profoundly qualified, profoundly hypocritical and profoundly populist in the worst sense of the word.

[Baroness Sharp of Guildford]

My Lords, I supplement the remarks of my noble friend Lady Williams with two specific points about the implications of the caps for universities. The first relates to the tier 1 cap. I believe the number of points needed to gain entry through this category is likely to be increased. This raises a problem. The points required under tier 1 already place considerable weight on an individual’s prior earnings and probably insufficient weight on their qualifications. This disadvantages academics and researchers, who tend not to be as highly paid as businessmen and bankers but, in many senses, create economic value in a different way. I ask the Minister: is there likely to be a review of the criteria and weightings used within tier 1 of the points-based system to prioritise those with skills and qualifications most likely to generate long-term economic benefit for the UK, and not just the highly paid?

My second point relates to tier 2. I understand that tier 2 applies to occupations where there is a recognised UK national shortage. Academics and researchers are not currently listed as shortage occupations. They tend to fill very specialised and niche vacancies. This change would mean that the tier 2 route would effectively be closed to universities and research institutes. This would severely affect many universities because it would affect both PhD students and the post-doctoral students who come over and fill many research posts in institutions. As the noble Lord, Lord Ryder, implied in last week’s debate, it would impose severe restrictions on what such research institutions could do. Will the Minister ensure that tier 2 is sufficiently flexible to respond to future economic growth areas, and not just to existing skills shortages? I also urge the Government to consider the introduction of a specific new immigration category for research collaboration and exchange, aligning the UK with other EU countries that have already made such a commitment to such collaborations.

Immigration: Detention of Children

Baroness Williams of Crosby Excerpts

Monday 11th October 2010 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Neville-Jones]

The noble Lord points to some of the difficulties that arise. In our view, it is certainly not humane to knock on people’s doors and require them to go absolutely immediately to a train or plane. Indeed, removal to a centre such as Yarl’s Wood, which has facilities, is sometimes the right procedure. The situation varies from case to case but we entirely accept that the procedure to be followed should be humane and in the interests of the family, and the children in particular.

[Baroness Williams of Crosby]

My Lords, is it possible to persuade the border agency not immediately to deport children, often by breaking into their homes in the early hours of the morning, but perhaps, as was suggested just now, to give the family a little more time to consider its position and return to the country from which it comes so that the children can be brought round to understanding what is going on? There is a great deal of evidence from the Royal College of Psychiatrists and others to show the huge effect on young children of suddenly being forced out of their homes in the middle of the night and compelled to go to a totally strange environment.