Health and Social Care Bill

Baroness Williams of Crosby Excerpts

Wednesday 21st December 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Wheeler]

My Lords, in responding to this group I should like first to raise on behalf of my noble friend Lady Thornton the issue of the register of risks on the Health and Social Care Bill. I also apologise on her behalf for not raising the matter at the appropriate time.

In the debate on the Motion of Regret on 7 December several noble Lords referred to the starting point of Report being timed so that the appeal on the Information Commissioner’s report will have been completed and the House will know the result. The Minister himself said:

“I am as keen as anyone to see the matter speedily resolved”.—[Official Report, 7/12/11; col. 736.]

The usual channels are, of course, discussing the next stage of the Bill. We agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, about the risk of this issue not being resolved in time for the next stage. On 7 December, she said:

“I fear that it may hang like a dark shadow over the whole of the Report stage”.—[Official Report, 7/12/11; col. 726.]

In the same debate the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, said:

“I believe the solution proposed by my noble friend”—

the noble Baroness, Lady Williams—

“is the best one … that an expedited decision should be sought from the tribunal”.—[Official Report, 7/11/12; col. 731.]

I have asked my noble friend the opposition Chief Whip, and appeal to the usual channels, not to finalise the arrangements for Report and the timetable until the House has an answer to the question. Our understanding is that a normal timescale, if we are lucky, might mean that we will have a tribunal decision in late February. The Government will then have the option of appealing to the Upper Tribunal. Does the Secretary of State intend to seek expedition of this process? What steps have Ministers taken to ensure that the appeal is heard as early as possible? The Minister can, if he wishes, respond in writing to my noble friend, though obviously he will need to do it as soon as possible.

I shall also speak briefly to this group of amendments generally. I support the amendments tabled by my noble friend Lord Warner and the noble Lord, Lord Patel, all of which seek to strengthen the Secretary of State’s duty to prepare and publish information standards governing the collection, processing and dissemination of information on the provision of NHS health and adult social care. I know that the Minister is in favour of having light-touch definitions in the Bill, but we strongly support being more specific about what the information standard is to be, what it is for and what it should include.

The definition proposed in Amendment 347A underlines that it must include,

“the efficient and effective collection … of information that”—

most importantly—

“benefits the commissioning and provision of health and adult social care services”.

It is equally important to specify that the standard includes the provision of information that will help improve public health and well-being and assist the public’s ability to make informed choices about care and treatment. We also support Amendment 347B, from the noble Lord, Lord Low, which seeks to ensure that the,

“information standard must include a requirement to record patients’ preferred reading format: standard print, large print, audio or Braille”.

We support the general aim of this part of the Bill: to place the current health and social care information centre on a firmer statutory footing, replacing the current special health authority. We have a number of issues to raise, and will do so in the next group.

[Baroness Williams of Crosby]

In view of the reference to me by the noble Baroness, Lady Wheeler, perhaps I may say a few words before the debate proceeds and the Minister replies. The Committee showed good sense—and the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, was good enough not to press the matter to a vote—over the information tribunal’s decision on the risk register. At the time, it was sensible to undertake to withhold our judgment until there had been an opportunity for the tribunal to consider the Department of Health’s appeal. However, the intervention by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay—as the noble Baroness, Lady Wheeler, indicated—clearly suggests that it would be possible, by a mutual approach from the Government and the Opposition, to speed up the processes under which the appeal was held.

Given that the government Chief Whip agreed that the matter should not come before the House on Report before the end of January, that provided an additional three weeks—a reasonable period of time—to try to persuade the tribunal to act reasonably rapidly. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, was good enough to say that in some cases which he knew of, the tribunal had been able to deal with an issue in as little as three or four days. That seems very apposite, since it is hard to think of anything much more constitutionally important than the Report stage of a Bill of this kind, and there should be no question of the debate on Report taking place before there is an outcome to the tribunal appeal.

This House recognised that it was proper that the law should take its normal course. We therefore withheld any attempt to try to press it by, for example, insisting on a vote. I think that that was to the credit of the Official Opposition. However, it is quite clear that the decision is very germane to the Report stage. It is highly relevant. All of us accept that if the appeal is upheld then we will be bound by it in a proper course of law, appropriate to all people who come before the tribunal. However, we also all recognise that it lies upon the Government to endeavour to reach a decision as quickly as possible. I am sure that the Opposition, and certainly we on these Benches, would strongly support an approach of that kind.

I would simply plead with the Minister, who has been so reasonable to the House on so many matters, to recognise that there is a real difficulty if the appeal, not having been heard, hangs over Report, and as a result leaves people able to say, “But if the appeal had gone the other way, X and Y would follow”. If the Department of Health—whose record is patchy, to say the least, as the noble Lord, Lord Owen, has rather sharply pointed out—really cares about information being made available, or at the least upholding the law that makes the tribunal make a final decision, it really is crucial that, at the end of this Committee stage, we hear from the Minister whether steps are being taken to accelerate the process as much as possible to enable Report to start properly at the end of January. I would simply urge that attention might also be paid to the further evidence provided by the noble Lord, Lord Owen, which, to say the least, is somewhat disturbing.

[Lord Owen]

May I just make a slight correction? I said that the debate on the impact of the European Union on healthcare in the United Kingdom in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Kakkar, will be held on 10 January. It will actually be held on 11 January, as the dinner-break business. I want to be quite clear about the timing of that important debate, which at the moment is limited to a maximum of one hour.

While I am on my feet, I want to stress that every word that the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, has said is wholly appropriate. This question of risk assessment is central to the judgments which will have to be made at Report. I hope very much that we do not proceed to Report until the tribunal's judgment has been heard.

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[Lord Mawhinney]

My Lords, at the risk of irritating my noble friend, I should like to make a brief comment about this matter. I assure him that it does not fall into the category of wishing to irritate him. If there is any virtue, it is a virtue of consistency on my part.

Clause 247 again deals with the interplay between the Secretary of State and the NHS board. We have already clearly established in this Committee that the Government wish to give the board a freedom from the overall influence of the Secretary of State that would mark a fundamental change in the way that the NHS has been conducting its business over many years.

Subsection (1) of the clause gives powers to both the Secretary of State and the board, and either can exercise them. I look down to subsections (3) and (4) and see that both the Secretary of State and the board can exercise powers in relation to the provision of health services. I wondered whether this was a belated recognition regarding the board for those of us who have been encouraging our noble friend to give primacy to the Secretary of State and maybe a stepping stone towards returning to the traditional position. On the other hand, if it is a stepping stone, and given the fact that until we hear from my noble friend there is not a lot of clarity as to what is intended here, these provisions may simply confuse the matter, not clarify it.

I am old-fashioned, as my noble friend knows, and I think that the Minister is ultimately responsible for the area for which Her Majesty has called him or her to be responsible. The Secretary of State could delegate powers to the board, but that is not the way that the Government have chosen to interpret this. All of us are grateful to my noble friend for the fact that he has been so willing to review this whole issue and to come back with new proposals on Report. I cannot be the only Member of your Lordships' House who looks forward to seeing what those proposals contain and measure them against the views that have been expressed on this subject over some months now.

However, since we moved away from the first few clauses, there have been examples of this ambiguity and potential conflict between the Secretary of State and the board running right through the Bill. I have tested my noble friend’s patience on a number of occasions by drawing his attention to various examples of that as we have gone through the Bill. I draw his attention to what is but another example of the importance of getting this relationship right—and my noble friend knows what I believe is right and I know what he believes is right. We are both grateful for the opportunity to review that before Report. I should therefore be interested to hear what my noble friend thinks is actually meant, or intended to be meant, by this clause.

Finally, because we have already established that the risk register is legitimate to discuss under Clause 247, I share the view that it would be very helpful to the Committee to have a definitive decision before Report gets under way. In keeping with what my noble friend Lord Newton of Braintree just said, were the Government to lose and to decide to pursue the matter to the next stage, I hope that the Minister will not think that such a decision would be without friends in this House. I cannot be the only former Minister who has conducted examination of potential legislation on the basis of “What if?”.

[Baroness Williams of Crosby]

I underline the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Mawhinney, because the whole area of information is a crucial aspect of the constitutional issues about accountability. In particular, the clauses we are discussing are expressed in complicated ways that are difficult to understand. For example, I find it hard to be clear that personal and identifiable data will not fall within the terms of the clauses, because the phrases “other persons”, “other bodies”, and so forth are scattered throughout the clauses. That disturbs me. Perhaps the Minister could add a little on data protection legislation and address the important point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Mawhinney, about this aspect of the Bill, which of course relates to several others besides.

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, I hope that I can satisfy my noble friends on these issues. If my noble friend Lord Mawhinney is old-fashioned, we are all the more fortunate for that. I feel a little old-fashioned myself, so I understand where he is coming from. He will appreciate that the clause provides powers for the Secretary of State and the NHS Commissioning Board to prepare and publish information standards. As we have debated, standards are important for a number of reasons. They can help ensure that information is of high quality, that it is comparable and that confidential information can be stored and transferred safely and securely.

Our aim is for the Secretary of State to set information standards in respect of public health and adult social care services and the board to set standards in respect of NHS services. Indeed, any organisation providing publicly funded health or social care services in England would be required to have regard to those information standards. When the standard is published, there would be accompanying guidance on how to implement it.

As I said, the Bill makes clear that responsibility for preparing and publishing information standards will sit with the Secretary of State or the Commissioning Board. The process that will be followed when the need for a standard is identified is currently being worked through, but we envisage that, in practice, the NHS Commissioning Board will set the standards for the NHS. We are mindful, however, that the Secretary of State is responsible for the health and social care system as a whole. Therefore, it is right that he has the overarching power for both. It could well be that, within the mandate that he sets the board, information standards will feature as something it is tasked to expedite. Of course there is a need to ensure that standards are consistent across the sectors to which they apply.

We are about to move to a group of amendments where I would be happy to address the questions of my noble friend Lady Williams on confidentiality. If she will allow me to do that, I would be happy to follow that course.

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[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Committee for allowing this question of whether Clause 285 should stand part of the Bill to be taken today. Previous commitments from the Minister have outlined that the Secretary of State’s annual report is an important mechanism through which he will account for the system, and the Bill sets out extensive powers of intervention in the case of failure, which are essential if Ministers are able to retain ultimate accountability for the health service. However, the Secretary of State’s duty of keeping performance under review applies only to national arm’s-length bodies, although we are also debating—and will be, I am sure, on Report—how it might also refer to the clinical commissioning groups.

The aim of this debate is to explore what will happen if Monitor and the CQC do not co-operate. I am simply seeking some clarification from the Minister in response to certain questions. The Bill sets out a formal duty of co-operation between these two bodies—but what practical actions will be taken if this does not happen? On 7 December, the noble Earl, Lord Howe, stated at the Dispatch Box that the Secretary of State would be able to write formally and publicly to organisations if the duty to co-operate is being breached. How will the Secretary of State monitor how effectively Monitor and the CQC are working together? Will they report on how well they have worked together and where they seek to improve their working relationships in the future? What will trigger the Secretary of State to intervene? Can the Secretary of State take responsibility for any services that have been responsible for triggering a dispute?

The Minister also stated that:

“If the breach is significant, sustained and having a detrimental effect on the NHS, the Secretary of State will have a further ability to lay an order specifying that the organisation should take certain actions only with the approval of another specified body, other than the Secretary of State himself”.—[Official Report, 7/12/11; col. 747.]

Will the Government please give a definition of the meaning of,

“significant, sustained and having a detrimental effect on the NHS”,

and explain what this will mean in practice? In subsection (7) there is mention of arbitration, but who will the arbitrator be in the event of a dispute? Is that the Secretary of State?

There may be examples of work between CQC and Monitor that may not be considered significant breaches of their duty to co-operate but may not be best practice in integrated working. This is a particular risk for complex work such as setting the tariff, especially for care pathways for complex conditions that take into account multiple providers. How will the Government ensure that these two bodies do not meet just bare minimum standards but continue to improve the quality of their integrated working, innovate to find new ways of co-operating and share good practice throughout their organisations, so that integrated working is strategically built in at their every level?

There is a particular concern about the effect on long-term conditions if Monitor and the CQC do not work seamlessly together. We have had debates already about the importance of care being integrated to treat patients with long-term conditions. The Secretary of State must be proactive in ensuring that both Monitor and the CQC themselves work proactively to facilitate such integrated working. I would be grateful for some further elaboration on how this will be achieved. I hope that the Minister will be able to assure the Committee that Monitor and the CQC will be required to report to the Secretary of State on how they have collaborated, including an evaluation of how they have co-operated, and that they will be given goals by the Department of Health on how to improve continuously in such working.

When considering potential failure that is recognised by one party but not the other, who will have the power to intervene? This becomes particularly important as Monitor has powers to intervene in failure but not, as I understand it, at the point when an organisation is at risk of working in a way that may result in failure—in other words, in a pre-failure state. At that point, Monitor does not have powers to intervene. I would be grateful if the Minister were able to answer at least some of my questions today. I realise that I have posed a lot of questions, and that some may come better in writing later.

[Baroness Williams of Crosby]

My Lords, I follow the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, and very much share her questions—not least about who will be the arbiter in a situation where co-operation cannot be reached between two of the major bodies involved in responsibilities for the health service. I would add just a couple of things. I very much apologise to the Committee for the fact that, when Amendments 350 and 351 were reached—we were already going through at a rattling pace—I was out of the Chamber so did not move those two amendments. I will not refer back to them or move them now; it would obviously be inappropriate to do so. However, I stress the concern that I have about Clause 285.

The trouble is that there is a very long and elaborate procedure under which, if co-operation fails between the board and Monitor, they have then to exchange views with one another and tell each other what their opinions are, and so forth. They and the Secretary of State then have to make statements of their opinions. This seems most unfortunate, because co-operation and integration are at the very heart of what all of us have been saying in Committee are absolutely crucial elements in the attempt to deal with the problems that confront the NHS, and the health service more generally, at the moment. Therefore, to have a procedure which is as elaborate and which has as many stages in it as this one—with, in many ways, the chances to fuel rather than heal any difference between them—seems not to be a sensible clause at all.

Our amendments simply suggested that it would be much better, at a certain point when we were in what the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, described as the pre-failure period, to allow the Secretary of State to come into the picture. This goes back to what the noble Lord, Lord Mawhinney, was talking about earlier. We are not talking about an immediate intervention. We understand the need to try to get agreement and to decentralise decision-making but in the end, if they cannot agree on how to co-operate and resolve that, either there has to be an arbiter whose voice is such that he or she carries real authority or, since we do not know who that arbiter is, in our view the proper arbiter is indeed the Secretary of State, responsible as he is to Parliament and to the public. Therefore I strongly support the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay. I am very grateful for what she has said. I hope we can hear from the Minister who will be the arbiter, and whether there might be a more rapid and effective way of dealing with a failure of co-operation. I put on record that I think this is absolutely crucial to what this is all about. We need to be able to deal with it reasonably urgently and quickly.