Medicines and Medical Devices Bill

Baroness Wheeler Excerpts

Committee stage & Committee: 6th sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 6th sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 17th November 2020 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Baroness Wheeler]

105: After Clause 16, insert the following new Clause—
“Requirement for consultation with devolved authorities
(1) Before making regulations under section 16 that contain provision which is within the legislative competence of a devolved legislature, the Secretary of State must consult the relevant devolved authority on that provision and have regard to the views of that devolved authority.(2) In this section—“devolved authority” means the Scottish Ministers, the Welsh Ministers, Northern Ireland ministers or a Northern Ireland department; and“devolved legislature” means the Scottish Parliament, Senedd Cymru or the Northern Ireland Assembly.(3) A provision is within the legislative competence of a devolved legislature if—(a) it would be within the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament if it were contained in an Act of the Scottish Parliament;(b) it would be within the legislative competence of Senedd Cymru if it were contained in an Act of Senedd Cymru (including any provision that could only be made with the consent of a Minister of the Crown); or(c) the provision, if it were contained in an Act of the Northern Ireland Assembly—(i) would be within the legislative competence of the Assembly, and(ii) would not require the consent of the Secretary of State.”Member’s explanatory statement
This new Clause would require the Secretary of State to consult the devolved administrations before making regulations concerning UK-wide information systems.

[Baroness Wheeler (Lab)]

My Lords, I am moving Amendment 105 on behalf of my noble friend Lady Thornton; it leads the group of amendments following Clause 16, which provides the legal framework for the medical devices information system. I will also speak to our other amendments in this group—Amendments 128, 130 and 132—and on the remaining amendments, including government Amendment 126.

The number of amendments in this group shows the strength of feeling on this issue. Key issues raised last week and in debate on Clause 16 earlier today are also relevant here. As we have all stressed, First Do No Harm, the landmark report by the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, very much places the importance of the MDIS system centre stage. The complete lack of safety data and record-keeping on pelvic mesh implants in thousands of women—including basic details about the patient’s name, medical history and health problems, and manufacture and supply information for these devices after implantation, which would have enabled patients to be traced and treated—reinforces the need for MDIS and its future role as both an information and tracing system.

Amendment 105 would add a new clause after Clause 16 to place a statutory requirement in the Bill that the devolved Administrations in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland must be consulted before regulations on the MDIS are laid and that the Secretary of State must have regard to the views of the devolved authority. Government Amendment 126 and Amendments 105, 127, 128, 129 and 132 all aim to strengthen consultation provisions, including public consultation before making regulations under any provision of Parts 1, 2 or 3 of the Bill or under Clause 16(1).

This focus on the importance of consultation and ensuring that NHS Digital—with its existing remit and expertise limited to England—fully engages in meaningful and active collaboration with the devolved authorities is absolutely crucial for the UK-wide development of MDIS. If the system is to be fit for purpose, the work to deliver it must be informed by and responsive to the local requirements and realities across the devolved Administrations. The devolved nations must be fully involved in the system’s design and modelling, have equal access to MDIS data analysis and sharing, have a governance structure for MDIS that includes representatives from all the devolved authorities’ institutions, and have parity of funding across the four nations.

I am very grateful for the helpful correspondence of 9 November from the Minister to the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, regarding MDIS and working with the devolved Administrations. It was shared with Members, together with the 4 November letter from NHS Digital setting out its intended “collaborative approach”. These letters contain a number of assurances on both the current work being undertaken and how the future four-way relationship needs to be taken forward to develop the UK-wide system.

The remaining amendments in this group, including the government amendment, refer to the general duty under Clause 41 to consult before making regulations. Our Amendment 132 would insert a new clause on the duty to consult the devolved Administrations and “have regard” to their views. I hope the Minister will agree that that is not an unreasonable requirement.

Government Amendment 126 would amend Clause 41 to ensure consultation with the devolved authorities under Clause 16, headed “Information systems”. Although the inclusion of this statutory duty to consult as far as Clause 16 goes is a step forward, other key parts of the Bill have an impact on the devolved authorities. We want to see a general duty in Clause 41 to consult the devolved Administrations, as is common practice in a number of Bills—not just limited to consultation in relation to Clause 16. I hope that the Minister will undertake to review the Bill after Committee and consider this key point in relation to Clause 41.

In his 13 October letter to noble Lords, the Minister refers to the Government’s amendments as providing “certainty” that the Government will ensure that the devolved authorities’ views are heard throughout the development of the regulations and in their implementation. The certainty given, however, is in relation only to Clause 16 and not to the rest of the Bill, as we would like to see.

Amendment 130 is a probing amendment that would remove the permissive provision in Clause 41(3) that consultation carried out before the Act was passed could satisfy the duty to consult. This clause is very open-ended. Can the Minister provide details of the purpose and intended use of this provision? There is no explanation in the Explanatory Notes. Will there be a time limit on how up to date a consultation needs to be for it to be considered done and dusted?

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[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Fookes) (Con)]

I have not received any further requests to speak, so I call the noble Baroness, Lady Wheeler.

[Baroness Wheeler (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for his extensive and helpful response, particularly on the comments made by my noble friend Lord Hunt about the groups that are consulted. This has been an excellent debate and I have little to add, as noble Lords put forward the issues so ably, in particular on the importance of listening to patients and patient representatives so that the consultation is meaningful and well thought through, given the enormous powers that are in the Bill and will be set out in the regulations. It is timely for my noble friend to remind us of the context of the DPRRC and Constitution Committee reports. I asked the Minister to consider whether Clause 41 should specifically include reference to consultation with the devolved authorities. If he could come back to me on that, that would be helpful. I also asked some questions about his correspondence, which I hope he will agree to follow up.

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

On the question why the government amendment is being made to Clause 41 rather than Clause 16, which I think is what the noble Baroness is asking about, Clause 41 is concerned with consultation. It is important that consultation requirements are provided for in one place, as that assists with clarity and understanding. The legal effect is the same, irrespective of where in the Bill the obligation to consult the devolved Administrations when making regulations under Clause 16 is found.

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[Baroness Wheeler (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for that and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 105 withdrawn.

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Moved by

[Baroness Wheeler]

119: After Clause 38, insert the following new Clause—
“Northern Ireland and regulatory divergence
(1) The Secretary of State must work together with the appropriate authority in Northern Ireland to minimise the potential for and mitigate against regulatory divergence in relation to human medicines, veterinary medicines and medical devices. (2) Where the Secretary of State has identified areas of regulatory divergence in relation to human medicines, veterinary medicines and medical devices between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK, the Secretary of State must lay a report before both Houses of Parliament setting out how the divergence will impact—(a) the UK; and(b) Northern Ireland.(3) The report must set out the steps the appropriate authorities have taken to mitigate against such divergence.”Member’s explanatory statement
This Clause would require the Secretary of State to work with the appropriate authority in Northern Ireland to minimise the potential for regulatory divergence relating to medicines and devices, and report any areas of regulatory divergence to Parliament, including the impact they will have, and report on actions to mitigate against adverse consequences arising from divergence.

[Baroness Wheeler (Lab)]

My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lady Thornton, I am moving Amendment 119 on the important issue of regulatory divergence with Northern Ireland and reporting to Parliament. I am grateful for the support of the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie, who raised this key issue at Second Reading, as did the noble Lord, Lord Patel, whose Amendment 120 is grouped with this amendment. I look forward to their contributions and to those of other noble Lords.

Amendment 119 would add a new clause to the Bill on the interpretation of Part 3, “Medical Devices”. It would require the Government to work with the appropriate authority in Northern Ireland to

“minimise the potential for and mitigate against regulatory divergence in relation to human medicines, veterinary medicines and medical devices.”

Where an area of divergence is identified, the Secretary of State would be required to lay a report before Parliament on the impact it will have and the steps being taken to mitigate it.

Human and veterinary medicines are transferred matters in Northern Ireland. For this reason, Clauses 1 and 8 lay out in black and white the possibility of regulatory divergence, as they give separate powers to Northern Ireland departments to make regulations relating to Northern Ireland. However, despite this being in the Bill, the rest of the legislation as drafted is completely silent on the implications this may have, or on any mechanism for dealing with them. This means Northern Ireland could end up passing different legislation.

As well as those powers in the Bill, there is the wider context of the Northern Ireland protocol, under which Northern Ireland will continue to apply certain European Union standards that will no longer automatically be part of the law governing Great Britain. For example, in the Government’s own guidance on regulating medical devices from 1 January 2021, it is stated that, unlike in Great Britain, the EU medical device regulations and the EU in vitro diagnostic medical device regulations will apply in Northern Ireland from May 2021 and May 2022 respectively.

The risks of divergence have been raised by Members in both Houses, including the risk that what may on the face of it seem to be only minor or technical differences could create a butterfly effect, leading to much larger legal and operational problems. The Bill does not itself create divergence and nor for that matter does the Northern Ireland protocol, but both permit it or create a situation in which it may arise. It is therefore vital that the implications of this are part of discussions on the Bill.