Safety of Rwanda (Asylum and Immigration) Bill

Baroness Wheatcroft Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 19th February 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Stewart of Dirleton (Con)]

My noble friend Lord Sharpe confirmed to me a moment ago that the monitoring committee is already operational; it is up and running.

[Baroness Wheatcroft (CB)]

My Lords, the monitoring committee consists of four people, two of whom are apparently in the pay of the Rwandan Government. Can the Minister reassure us that he thinks it will be completely unbiased?

[Lord Stewart of Dirleton (Con)]

My Lords, in the first instance, the monitoring committee consists of not four but eight people. If I might express the words of my noble friend sitting next to me on the Front Bench, I can give that assurance.

My noble friend Lord Deben quoted John Donne’s line that

“No man is an island, entire of itself”.


I think in that piece of prose, which is one of his sermons, Donne also says the familiar passage about asking not for whom the bell tolls; “it tolls for thee”. None the less, while accepting everything of a universalist nature that my noble friend says about our obligations one to another as humans, I have to say that the Government’s scope for operation is restricted. We can operate within our powers and jurisdiction, must legislate to protect our borders, and cannot seek to exceed our powers.

Both the noble Baroness, Lady Lister of Burtersett, and the noble Lord, Lord Purvis of Tweed, raised the point that the progress and content of this legislation are under scrutiny. His Majesty’s Government fully accept that scrutiny and appreciate that it is timely and important because of the scale of the problem that we face. It is a problem faced across all sorts of different countries, and the Government are undertaking to address it by this legislation.

Safety of Rwanda (Asylum and Immigration) Bill

Baroness Wheatcroft Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 14th February 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bellingham (Con)]

I want to pick up on three quick points before the Minister replies. First, on Amendment 75, I entirely agree with the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, that we had a very powerful speech from the noble Lord, Lord Browne of Ladyton, reinforced by the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Stirrup. I want to ask the Minister this question: if it is not possible to put it in the Bill, is it possible for the Secretary of State to make a firm pledge and commitment? I have had the privilege of doing two stints at the Foreign Office and have seen the extraordinary commitment of staff locally engaged by the British Council. In fact, in many of those countries, staff directly employed by the Foreign Office would be outnumbered, probably by 10 to one, by locally engaged staff, who are incredibly loyal to the Crown and this country, never more so than in Afghanistan, where we had not only a larger cohort of locally engaged staff than in most countries but the defence angle as well, with British-trained Afghan defence force members and special forces whom we trained. I urge the Minister to look at this seriously.

One point that occurred to me is that many illegal refugees who arrive in this country, asylum seekers, tear up their documents. Many of them deny all knowledge of where they have come from, and we have no idea who they are but, presumably, there should be documentary evidence of anyone who served the Crown in Afghanistan, or for that matter in any other country, or who we trained. We would have their names and details, so surely this problem could be solved easily.

I want to pick up on two other points. Like the noble Lord, Lord Alton of Liverpool, I know Rwanda and I imagine a few people have been there—I think the noble Lord, Lord Purvis of Tweed, is going there shortly. The noble Lord, Lord Alton, and I have made common cause on many issues around Africa for a long time. In a region of volatility, Rwanda is a beacon of stability. Would I have chosen Rwanda myself? Not necessarily. There has been a lot of criticism of Rwanda in this Chamber, but since His Excellency Paul Kagame, whom I know very well, took over as president, progress has been made around financial services, tourism and health. Human Rights Watch recently praised Rwanda for the abolition of the death penalty and the use of torture. Transparency International marked Rwanda five out of 47 in terms of corruption indicators. That country has joined the Commonwealth. If you visit Rwanda, you will see the extraordinary progress that it has made. It has signed a treaty that President Kagame has committed himself personally to uphold.

[Baroness Wheatcroft (CB)]

The noble Lord referred to Human Rights Watch. I assume that he has read its report on 2022, which stated of Rwanda:

“Arbitrary detention and ill-treatment in unofficial detention facilities were common”.


That may not fit with financial services thriving, but it does not point to a safe country.

[Lord Bellingham (Con)]

I share the noble Baroness’s concerns about Rwanda because there are many areas about which we can be highly critical, but if we listened to some of the criticism of Rwanda as a country not only in this Chamber but in the media and elsewhere, we would conclude that it was incredibly backward and dangerous, which it manifestly is not.

On the point that the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, made about Rwandan refugees specifically, Clause 4(1) states—the Minister can probably cover this:

“Section 2 does not prevent … the Secretary of State or an immigration officer from deciding … whether … Rwanda is a safe country”.


I humbly suggest that if there were a Rwandan asylum seeker here claiming asylum, they would be covered by that part of the Bill. I hope that the Minister will be able to reply to those three points.

Illegal Migration Bill

Baroness Wheatcroft Excerpts

Report stage
Wednesday 28th June 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)]

I do not know whether the DPP has been consulted on that point but I will certainly find out and write to the noble Lord.

Amendment 112, put forward by the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, would prevent the public order disqualification provided for in the 2022 Act being applied to a person whose positive reasonable grounds decision was based on exploitation which had occurred before they were 18. It is, in our view, entirely appropriate for the public order disqualification provided for in that Act to be capable of applying to all relevant individuals, including those exploited as children. In this regard, it is important to note that the public order disqualification in the 2022 Act applies only to specified persons, such as those who have been convicted of a serious criminal offence. In such cases, the age at which the exploitation took place is, I submit, irrelevant to the threat to public order an individual now poses, and we cannot tie our hands on this matter on the basis of the time at which exploitation took place.

The modern slavery measures in the Bill, alongside the others, are intended to deal with the immediate and pressing public risk arising from the exceptional circumstances relating to illegal entry into the UK. We need to take bold action and now. This Bill will not achieve its objective if removals are put on hold for over 500 days awaiting a conclusive grounds decision. As I indicated at the start, these amendments will quite simply wreck the Bill. I hope therefore that the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, will be content to withdraw his Amendment 12. If he is not, I invite the House to reject it.

[Baroness Wheatcroft (CB)]

I am sorry to interrupt the Minister but he referred again to the 500-plus days involved in the NRM process. Earlier, in response to the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, he said that one of the reasons for that was examining the evidence. However, since he cites this as a reason for going ahead with these appalling proposals, can he explain to the House why it is not possible to shorten that period? Is he content that a process that takes more than 500 days is humane?

[Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)]

Considerable efforts are taken to seek to shorten the period but that is not an easy process. I agree with the noble Baroness that we should aspire to have a shorter period but we have to legislate for the world as it is, not as we wish it to be.

I can now confirm to the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, that the CPS was indeed consulted in respect of these provisions.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Stewart of Dirleton (Con)]

As the noble and learned Lord will be aware, the Rwanda litigation found it to be the case that Rwanda was safe. Beyond that, in relation to the sources of information, the Government operate on the basis of information gathered by their officials, discussed with Ministers and considered in relation to legislation to be put forward.

[Baroness Wheatcroft (CB)]

On that point, can the Minister tell the House whether we should take any notice of guidance from the Foreign Office on whether countries are safe to visit?

[Lord Stewart of Dirleton (Con)]

The guidance furnished by the Foreign Office to British citizens for travelling is a separate matter from the guidance upon which the Government are relying in the present case. I can see that that clearly has not impressed the noble Baroness, but none the less it is the position.

Northern Ireland Protocol Bill

Baroness Wheatcroft Excerpts

2nd reading
Tuesday 11th October 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Wheatcroft (CB)]

My Lords, yesterday much of the debate in this Chamber concerned the havoc in the markets caused by the Government’s mini-Budget. Confidence in the UK’s financial stability has been badly shaken. The cost is huge for ordinary people in this country with mortgages, and the rest of us will all be paying. But this morning the rout continued: the Bank of England had to wade in again to try and restore a degree of confidence.

Imagine how that loss of confidence in the UK would be compounded if we were to unilaterally tear up an international treaty. Now, it may be, as the noble Lord, Lord Bew, suggests, that international law is not always very clear, but when the noble Lord, Lord Howard of Lympne, the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, and the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy of The Shaws, all see things from the same point of view, I tend to think that they might be right. If this Government so clearly state that the UK’s word is no longer its bond, then what does it mean for the value of our bonds, which are already being trashed?

There is so much to detest about the Bill, not just its contempt for international law. This afternoon, we have heard from so many Members about why it is at risk of breaching international law and is about to breach so many of the rights of Parliament. The noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, said that the Bill was about restoring democracy but, as the noble Baroness, Lady Chapman, pointed out, the Bill gives so much power to the Executive and shows such little respect for Parliament that it is an insult to democracy. The noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, pointed out that it is seen as pushing Henry VIII powers further than they have ever been pushed before.

The protocol is not perfect but the threat to impoverish the UK and Ireland, north and south, that we would sustain if we went ahead with the Bill would be appalling. Trade between these countries has flourished post pandemic. For the first seven months of 2022, imports of goods from Northern Ireland to Ireland are actually running 93% higher than in 2019. As the noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, pointed out, what Northern Ireland has is the possibility of the best of both worlds. If we can get a negotiated solution to the problems with the protocol, Northern Ireland is the winner.

The Bill not only jeopardises that but contains provisions which are simply not workable. The proposed dual regulation route for regulated goods is deemed a killer by those in agribusiness, in particular; they simply could not cope. As the noble Baroness, Lady Doocey, said, dual regulation would decimate the Northern Ireland dairy industry. According to the British Irish Chamber of Commerce, the bureaucracy involved would be increased to unmanageable levels.

It is really encouraging that technical negotiations have resumed between the EU and the UK; it is in the interests of both to sort this out. That should be possible; the EU already has veterinary agreements, for instance, with New Zealand and Switzerland. Why not the UK? That would enable Northern Ireland to continue trading without the onerous bureaucracy. The Specialised Committee on the Protocol is already mandated to address any issues with implementing the protocol. If its powers were strengthened, it would be able to respond effectively to the problems perceived by business and provide speedy solutions to smooth cross-border trade, while showing respect for the EU single market.

This may look like a fudge, but fudge is the only way to solve what was always the core problem of Brexit: how to have a border without a border—impossible, so fudge it. Unfortunately, the noble Lord, Lord Frost, whose name is on the speakers’ list, is not here this afternoon. I was hoping he would be able to tell us why he supports the Bill when it was only on Christmas Eve 2020 that he tweeted:

“I’m very pleased and proud to have led a great UK team to secure today’s excellent deal with the EU.”


It was not a great deal but, having agreed to it, it is now incumbent upon our Government to make the best of it and not further damage our international reputation.

Bribery Act 2010: Post-legislative Scrutiny (Select Committee Report)

Baroness Wheatcroft Excerpts

Wednesday 3rd February 2021 Grand Committee

[Baroness Wheatcroft (CB) [V]]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Fookes, who, after more than 50 years of continuous service in Parliament, is deserving of everyone’s attention when she speaks. I also thank the committee for its work in producing this report and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Saville of Newdigate, for his introduction to this afternoon’s proceedings. Given the believed scale of bribery on the international stage, either the Act is proving incredibly successful and, as the noble Lord, Lord Gold, said, frightening many companies into honesty, or bribery is going undetected.

As the report points out, bribery is a crime that is generally detected only when it goes wrong. I was therefore concerned by the comment in the report that suspicious activity reports have very little follow-up. Companies know when competitors seem to be enjoying disproportionate success: if they report suspicious activity, that report should be followed up. Will the Minister comment on how the follow-up of suspicious activity reports could be improved? If that were done, perhaps we would see more cases of bribery come to court.

The committee’s report was largely positive about the way the Bribery Act is working. It welcomed the refusal to allow facilitation payments, and I concede that while this can disadvantage British business in many markets, it is impossible to be, as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay, once said, “a little bit pregnant”. Facilitation payments are bribery, however common they may be in some countries, so this country is right to rule out bribery of any kind—unlike the United States, for instance. I also agree with the committee’s endorsement of deferred prosecution agreements. It seems that these are proving effective in persuading companies to own up to partial failings and improve standards for the future, while not preventing prosecution of individuals.

The aspect of this report on which I shall concentrate my remaining remarks is that of vicarious liability for companies. The noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, was eloquent in her criticism of the way prosecutions for bribery have hit the small business sector rather than the large. The issue is that of the identification principle: that the controlling minds of the company do not have mens rea. I listened with interest to the noble Lord, Lord Stunell, as he drew his analogy with a captain escaping all liability as his ship went down. I share his discomfort with this situation.

The committee made no recommendation on the issue of vicarious liability, but neither did it rule it out. It was looking towards the report of the committee the Government had already established to examine corporate liability for economic crime. Indeed, when the Government published their response to this Select Committee report, in May 2019, they said that the issue of vicarious responsibility was under review, and their response would be issued “shortly”. That was in May 2019. “Shortly”, turned out to be 18 months later and, after such lengthy deliberation, the Government concluded that the call for evidence on corporate criminal liability was inconclusive. They therefore proposed to ask the Law Commission to examine the issue and report on the options by late 2021. By any standards, this looks like kicking a difficult issue into the long grass.

However, the evidence was not in everyone’s view inconclusive. Three-quarters of respondents to the call for evidence agreed that the identification doctrine inhibited holding companies to account for all economic crimes. The noble Lord, Lord German, called, earlier this afternoon, for a new Select Committee report into vicarious liability—I would be very interested to hear the Minister’s response to that. I would also like to hear his view on why there has been such reluctance to address the issue of vicarious liability, when it is quite clear that larger companies are not being held to account in the way that smaller companies are, because the people at the top are able to dodge the issue.

Finally, I raise again, as have others, the issue of the Government’s anti-corruption champion. This is not, by any standards, a high-profile position. Will the Minister tell the Committee whether the current incumbent, John Penrose MP, needs greater powers if he is to be an effective champion of anti-corruption, both in government and in business, as his job description says?

Offender Management: Checkpoint Programme

Baroness Wheatcroft Excerpts

Thursday 27th February 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Wheatcroft (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Bates, on securing this important debate. It is clear that our justice system is not working. We lock up too many people. The noble Lord, Lord Bates, referred to the quality of mercy. I fear that is not a word we are likely to hear very much from our current Home Secretary, but we should find a way to use it.

Almost two-thirds of adults released from prison after sentences of 12 months or less go on to reoffend, so the Durham experiment is clearly a step in the right direction, but four months’ rehabilitation is just the start of turning people away from a life of crime. The crucial thing is getting offenders into employment. Ministry of Justice statistics show that only 17% of offenders get a job within a year of leaving prison. Those not in regular employment are almost twice as likely to reoffend. That is why, in its 2017 manifesto, the Conservative Party pledged to give employers a national insurance holiday if they took on any ex-offender. Last year, I asked what had happened to this manifesto promise and the Government told me that they were consulting on it. Is consultation yet about to turn into action?

Women who leave prison and fail to secure employment are just as likely to reoffend as men and, although the numbers are much smaller, the effects are potentially even more damaging. Every year, imprisonment of female offenders separates more than 17,000 children from their mothers. I applaud the efforts of Working Chance, a charity that helps female offenders into jobs. Its supporters include Pret a Manger and Virgin but, sadly, a lot of the companies that the charity has approached fail to see that this would help them and their staff, but ex-offenders become very loyal workers as the Timpson example has demonstrated. Only 4% of people that Working Chance has placed in a job go on to reoffend, which demonstrates why it makes such sense to fund organisations like it.

A survey by the Government in 2016 found that only half of businesses would consider employing an ex-offender. Can the Government tell me what they will do to encourage businesses to take on these people and help society in general?