Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill

Debate between Baroness Warsi and Baroness Hussein-Ece

Wednesday 28th January 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Warsi (Con)]

My Lords, I will speak to both these amendments, although it may well be that much of what I have to say relates to amendments that will follow. However, I have some general points that will also relate to the debates we are going to have later today.

When the Government bring forward something on a statutory basis, there are two very clear questions that we need to ask: is it absolutely needed, and are we sure that what we are implementing works? The concern that I have in relation to the former of those questions—and I am sure that it will be dealt with in future amendments—is whether we are absolutely clear that it is necessary to introduce Prevent on a statutory basis into the various statutory bodies that we are speaking of in this Bill, including nurseries, schools and universities.

However, I want to focus more on whether we are sure that what we are implementing is working at present. There have been concerns about the Prevent and counter-radicalisation programme for a number of years. There has been a view that it is being done badly, and reports going back as far as five or six years, from 2009 onwards, have consistently argued that the quality of Prevent work is questionable. Indeed, in some cases it has been said that the Prevent work itself has further alienated communities rather than deradicalised them. In those circumstances, it is important for a full review of Prevent to be done before we place it on a statutory footing.

The second concern in relation to Prevent is that, up to now, it has been ideologically rather than evidence based, and the basis on which Prevent work is done has been much questioned. There have been reports from the intelligence service’s behavioural science unit as to whether the linear theory of ideology leading to extremism and then violent extremism can actually be supported. It is a shame that the noble Lord, Lord Evans, is not in his seat today, because I think he would have been able to shed more light on that.

The third issue is definition, which has already been referred to today. What definition of extremism are we working to? A definition has now been provided in the guidance, which has been labelled the Prevent definition, but noble Lords may be aware that there are a number of definitions of extremism currently in government working documents. For example, the definition in the extremism task force paper after the tragic killing of Drummer Lee Rigby is different to that in the Prevent guidelines. It is incredibly dangerous to be stepping into the realms of a statutory basis for a Prevent programme that is going to rely on a definition of extremism that is not entirely defined and clear within all government departments, considering that many of the these statutory bodies will be accountable to different government departments.

My final point is that one of the challenges in relation to Prevent, and indeed in relation to what we are trying to do through the Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill, is how far British Muslim communities are on board. How far are they taking ownership of this work and how far do they feel that this work is genuinely being done to tackle radical violent extremists? Noble Lords may be aware that there was a sliding scale within government to define how far somebody was beyond the pale. If you were so extremist, we would not speak to you; if you were slightly more extremist, we would not take you as partners; if you were slightly more extremist than that, we would not fund your organisations. Nowhere is that made public. Nowhere are we aware what that would look like. Now we are talking not just about groups, organisations and individuals whom we do not engage with or take as partners or fund, but individuals who are not going to be allowed to speak, for example, on any university campus. It is important that we make sure that a proper consultation takes place with the British Muslim communities as to how this will work in practice.

The reason why I raise this is that, as noble Lords may be aware, at the weekend I wrote an opinion piece about what I described as a policy of disengagement— not just by this Government but by the previous Government—with British Muslim communities. More and more individuals and organisations have been defined as beyond the pale and are no longer engaged with. My concern is that a programme, which clearly requires the support of the communities within which it will mainly be operating, is being put in place without clear engagement or consultation with those very communities. The programme will be working in an ever closing space and without a very clear evidence base. For that reason, I have concerns.

[Baroness Hussein-Ece (LD)]

My Lords, first, I apologise to the Committee that I have not spoken before. However, I was present at Second Reading for the majority of the opening speeches, and I was present in the Chamber for much of the Committee stage on Monday, as I am today. I should like to speak briefly in support of the two amendments in the names of my noble friends, and I very much support what my noble friend Lady Warsi has just said.

I wonder whether, when he responds, the Minister could shed some light on why early years education has been included at all. I do not think that anyone has mentioned it yet, but I find the inclusion of early years education here very puzzling. Are we really looking for signs of radicalisation among nursery school children? I do not think that we have had a proper explanation of this and I would welcome one from the Minister.

There is a danger of alienating British Muslims in what is being proposed in relation to further education and university establishments. British Muslims are very well represented in universities, with some 50% now attending higher education. Is targeting universities and placing Prevent in the setting of a statutory duty really the right way to go about supporting the education and aspirations of young British Muslims who are keen to move on in their lives and careers and to integrate, or does it risk alienating whole communities, as has been mentioned by noble Lords around the Chamber? I have real concerns about that. There is also a danger in drawing conclusions about things that are said in universities. We all know that things are said in all sorts of wild situations—there can be debates on all sorts of subjects—but can that be equated automatically with radicalisation? Are we clear what we mean by that?

It is worth going back to something that I consider to be very important. The Minister has said on a number of occasions that the best way of tackling radicalisation and potential terrorism is by engaging with the British Muslim communities and other communities, working with them on an equal footing at the grass-roots level and not by employing a top-down approach. I fear that some of what is being proposed risks alienating people and driving them away, rather than encouraging them to engage in the way that we would want. To date, we have not had any evidence of any consultation or of how Prevent has worked historically. Those of us who have been involved in working with communities in the UK know how much in previous years—under this Government and the previous Government—the Prevent agenda polarised communities. It became a byword for the state spying on communities, not engaging with them, as my noble friend Lady Warsi has just said. It could be counterproductive. We need more evidence of engagement and consultation. We need to know how these so-called panels are going to work and whether they will be inclusive—not top-down and government led but community-led panels that will produce results.

I would appreciate it if my noble friend could respond to some of these points because they are at the heart of what we are trying to get to. If we cannot and will not engage but we go for the top-down approach—which may look very good in the headlines—will it work in practice? Will it achieve what we want it to achieve in terms of preventing terrorism?

Palestine

Debate between Baroness Warsi and Baroness Hussein-Ece

Wednesday 16th July 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Warsi]

The noble Lord will be aware that no members of Hamas have formed the technocratic Government, which of course we welcome. However, it is important that we do not leave aside positions as regards the ceasefire. We welcomed Egypt’s attempt to secure a ceasefire, the Palestinian Authority’s endorsement of it and President Abbas’s commitment in calling on the different Palestinian factions to accept it. The Israelis’ acceptance in principle of the proposed ceasefire and the support for it from the Arab League are positive things, which I hope will soon form the basis of a ceasefire.

[Baroness Hussein-Ece (LD)]

Can my noble friend say whether media reports that Hamas was not even consulted on the so-called peace deal that Egypt announced are true, and that members of the Knesset themselves learnt about it from the media?

[Baroness Warsi]

It is important that any ceasefire and agreement have the agreement of the Palestinian and Israeli peoples through their elected representatives. There has been some reporting about the basis of that ceasefire. Although my noble friend raises an important issue, if the possibility of a ceasefire is on the table, it is important that we do all we can to support that process.

European Union: Turkish Accession

Debate between Baroness Warsi and Baroness Hussein-Ece

Wednesday 5th March 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Warsi]

As noble Lords will be aware, a number of chapters have been politically blocked by, among others, Cyprus. That is one of the reasons for the lack of progress. Noble Lords will be pleased to hear that on 11 February the leaders of the Greek Cypriot and Turkish Cypriot communities respectively met under United Nations auspices. Since then there has been further progress, with the two negotiators meeting several times, and on 27 February they broke new ground when the Greek Cypriot negotiator held talks in Ankara and the Turkish Cypriot negotiator did the same in Athens. That progress is to be welcomed.

[Baroness Hussein-Ece (LD)]

My Lords, Turkey is going through serious internal conflict, with the Government seeking to repress the independence of the judiciary and internet freedoms. Given that Chapter 23, which relates to the judiciary and fundamental rights, has remained blocked within the EU since 2009, does my noble friend the Minister not think that, even now, it would be desirable for the EU to initiate discussions on this to ensure that Turkey remains firmly anchored in Europe, and to encourage these vital reforms?

[Baroness Warsi]

I agree with my noble friend. She referred to Chapter 23. Chapter 24 covers justice, freedom and security. In the light of what is happening in Turkey now, it is vital that progress is made on these chapters. We are a strong advocate for progress—momentum is a priority—to deal with, if nothing else, the immediate challenges within Turkey.

Georgia: Islamophobia

Debate between Baroness Warsi and Baroness Hussein-Ece

Tuesday 4th February 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Warsi]

The noble and right reverend Lord makes an important point. Indeed, we raised concerns about the violence at the IDAHO rally in May of last year, for example. LGBT rights, along with the rights of religious minorities, are a cause for concern. They stem from the concern in parts of the Georgian Orthodox Church about a conflict of values—a conflict between Georgian values, which are laid out in a very orthodox way, and what they see as European values, and the kind of anti sentiment towards them.

[Baroness Hussein-Ece (LD)]

My Lords, does my noble friend the Minister agree that this is part of a wider problem, not just in Georgia but in Moldova, Belarus and Russia, in that there is a lack of legislation that outlaws this type of inequality, and the ostracism of people from minority groups, which keeps them out of employment, education and political participation? The problem is not just in Georgia. Can my noble friend say what can be done to address it—and indeed homophobia—across the region in a more holistic way?

[Baroness Warsi]

This is one of the underlying themes of the Eastern Partnership. Georgia is one of six countries that are part of it. At the Vilnius conference at the end of last year there was a process of trying to encourage these countries to look towards Europe and go forward to signing association agreements, and deep and comprehensive fair trade agreements. This was all about trying to bring these countries to a place where the values that we hold dear become part of the norm. Our concern is that even where legislation is introduced it is not properly implemented. Sometimes legislation can have an alienating effect, as it had in Georgia when specific legislation passed in 2011 meant that Georgian Muslims were regulated by the Georgian Muslim department—which felt to the Muslim community there like a sad return to the Soviet era.

EU: Northern Cyprus

Debate between Baroness Warsi and Baroness Hussein-Ece

Wednesday 16th October 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Warsi]

The noble Lord is aware of the ongoing challenges in the area. I presume that he is correct, but if he is not, I am sure that I will write to him with details of how many citizens from the north of the country are members of European Union institutions.

I come back to the basic point in this matter. The way to resolve these issues in the long run is by achieving a settlement. There is some hope for that. As noble Lords will recall, the current president, Nicos Anastasiades, was one of the few politicians who was supportive of the Annan plan during the 2004 referendum. There is therefore some hope that negotiations will resume and will proceed in a positive way.

[Baroness Hussein-Ece (LD)]

My Lords, perhaps I may press my noble friend a little further on this. If, as she says, the United Kingdom as a guarantor power has a legal responsibility to recognise and support the Turkish Cypriot community, why does it appear that the EU border seems to end at the Green Line, so that 300,000 Turkish Cypriots are denied any fundamental rights under the European Union?

Turkey

Debate between Baroness Warsi and Baroness Hussein-Ece

Thursday 20th June 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Warsi]

The noble Lord makes an important point. As well as reform of the constitution generally that has assisted the Kurdish peace process, progress in that process has meant that Turkey has been heading in the right direction, and we must support and congratulate it on that.

[Baroness Hussein-Ece]

My Lords, after the terrible scenes that we have seen over the past few weeks of how the security forces and police have responded to these demonstrations, does my noble friend share my view that Turkey’s huge economic success in the past decade now needs urgently to be matched by democratic reforms to ensure an anti-authoritarian, inclusive society that the younger generation in particular, who are educated, middle class and secular—I include women in this—are demanding? I declare that I have family and friends who have been involved and caught up in this, especially women’s groups with whom I work. Does my noble friend also think, as has been touched on, that the UK and the EU now need to engage more than ever with Turkey? As has been mentioned, fundamental chapters have been closed, such as Chapter 24 that would force the reform of justice, freedom and security, and Chapter 22 on regional development.

[Baroness Warsi]

My noble friend makes an important point in relation to Turkey’s economy. It has enjoyed 5% growth on average over the past 10 years. It is effectively one of Europe’s strongest-growing economies. We must congratulate Turkey on that. Britain has seen success on the back of it, but I take the noble Baroness’s point in relation to further European accession. It is because Turkey continues its path towards European accession that it carries on making these reforms and we must therefore encourage rather than discourage it.

Violent Extremism

Debate between Baroness Warsi and Baroness Hussein-Ece

Monday 3rd June 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Warsi]

I can speak as someone who led the community response to the tragic killing of Drummer Rigby, when Muslims in this country came out vociferously and with a single voice said, “This was not done in the name of our faith. This was not done in our name”.

[Baroness Hussein-Ece]

My Lords, is it not the case that people of all faiths and backgrounds have deplored the barbaric murder of Lee Rigby on the streets of Woolwich? Is there not a risk of demonising Muslims, including the 3 million Muslims in the UK, which is not the answer? Does the Minister think that it is appropriate for decent voices of moderation to be drowned out by radicals such as Anjem Choudary— discredited people—who are given a media platform on the BBC and Channel 4? Drowning out other voices does more harm than good. Does the Minister agree with the Deputy Prime Minister, who said at a cross-party interfaith event last week, “Terrorism has no religion”?

[Baroness Warsi]

I absolutely add my voice to the words of the Deputy Prime Minister. I agree with my noble friend that one of the positives to come out of this tragedy is the way in which communities of all faiths have stood united and said that we will not be divided by the extremists who conduct these horrific acts in the way that they have.

Schools: Campaigns

Debate between Baroness Warsi and Baroness Hussein-Ece

Thursday 8th March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Warsi]

My Lords, the noble Baroness is correct that the National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children recently produced a report that stated that 16 per cent of teenage boys and, tragically, 33 per cent of teenage girls had experienced some form of sexual violence or abuse, predominantly from a partner. The teenage rape prevention campaign, which was launched earlier this week by the Deputy Prime Minister, will build on the recent teenage relationship abuse campaign. All partners and front-line practitioners with whom the Home Office has been working, which include teachers and schools, will have access to this further information and resource material. It will also be featured on the Times Educational Supplement Connect website and on the Department for Education’s corporate Facebook page. Before I came into the Chamber, I typed in “teenage abuse”, and the Home Office-funded website “This is ABUSE” and information about the new campaign, including a very hard-hitting video, are immediately available as the top click.

[Baroness Hussein-Ece]

My Lords, many of us will agree that forced marriages have no place in any civilised society and are also against the teachings of any religion that we are aware of. I am aware that the consultation ends on 30 March. However, most people are unaware that forced marriages are not illegal. Does my noble friend the Minister agree that making this a criminal offence would act as a deterrent, would support victims and would send out a very strong message that it is simply illegal to force any young girl to marry against her will?

[Baroness Warsi]

My Lords, I agree with my noble friend’s comments, and I completely agree that this issue is not confined to any specific culture or religion. Indeed, no religion condones this kind of behaviour. The forced marriage consultation, which started in December last year, is looking specifically at moving from a civil remedy to a criminal sanction. That consultation concludes at the end of March. During the consultation we are speaking to victims’ groups, lawyers and specialists who have been involved in this area for many years. There are arguments on both sides as to whether this should be a criminal offence. I have made it clear in both opposition and government that the time has now come to make it a criminal offence, but of course the Government will have to consider all responses to the consultation before we come to a final decision.