Ukraine

Baroness Warsi Excerpts

Tuesday 13th May 2014 Lords Chamber

[The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Warsi) (Con)]

My Lords, with the leave of the House, I shall now repeat a Statement on Ukraine made earlier today in another place by my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary. The Statement is as follows:

“Mr Speaker, with permission, I would like to make a Statement on recent events in Ukraine. I will update the House on the situation on the ground, the diplomatic work going on to reduce tensions, the decisions we made at the Foreign Affairs Council in Brussels yesterday, and the approach we will continue to pursue over the coming weeks.

Presidential elections will be held in Ukraine on 25 May. In the vast majority of the country, preparations are proceeding well under OSCE observation. The UK is contributing 100 observers to the OSCE Office for Democratic Institutions and Human Rights Election Observation Mission—10% of the total number; £429,000 for the first round of elections. We have also given £1 million in funding so far to the Special Monitoring Mission. I met the heads of both of these vital missions in Ukraine last week, and I thanked them for the hard work of their teams in difficult and sometimes dangerous circumstances.

But in two of Ukraine’s 25 regions—namely Donetsk and Luhansk in the south and east of the country—the situation has deteriorated markedly over the last two weeks. A constant barrage of propaganda by the Russian media, and a steadily mounting death toll, are contributing to an atmosphere of fear, uncertainty and division. So-called pro-Russian separatists—led by people who, by their training, equipment and behaviour, give every appearance of being Russian special forces—have continued to seize and occupy government buildings in the south and east of Ukraine, using many of the same tactics that were deployed in Crimea. We have seen intimidation of journalists, abductions and murders. Missiles have been used to destroy at least four Ukrainian military helicopters, giving the lie to Russia’s claim that these are the actions of spontaneously organised local protestors, rather than of well trained, well equipped professionals. On 2 May more than 40 people died in Odessa, including many pro-Russian protesters trapped in a building that was set on fire, an act we condemn unreservedly.

This weekend, separatist groups staged sham referendums on self-rule in parts of Donetsk and Luhansk. The polls were marked by blatant fraud, including multiple voting, no proper voting lists, and threats and intimidation against Ukrainians standing up for the unity of the country. These referendums met none of the basic standards of objectivity, transparency and fairness, and they have no credibility whatever. We will not recognise these or any other attempts to undermine the territorial integrity of Ukraine, including Russia’s illegal annexation of Crimea. The Government believe that our national interest lies in a democratic Ukraine able to determine its own future, and in defending and protecting a rules-based international system. So our objectives remain to avoid any further escalation of the crisis, to support the independence and sovereignty of Ukraine, and to uphold international law.

I visited Ukraine, Moldova and Georgia last week to show our support at a time when all three countries are feeling acute pressure. We look forward to the signing next month of Georgia and Moldova’s association agreements with the EU which will also establish deep and comprehensive free trade areas, which are currently under parliamentary scrutiny. I gave our strong support to the Moldovan Government’s plans to sign and implement the agreement, and encouraged them to make more progress on reform and in the fight against corruption. In Georgia I discussed and thanked the Government for their contribution to their partnership with NATO.

In Ukraine, I met the Prime Minister, Foreign Minister and the head of the National Security and Defence Council, as well as the Governor of Donetsk and two of the presidential candidates. I encouraged all Ukraine’s leaders to communicate with people in the south and east of the country, and to counter Russian disinformation. I welcomed the steps the Government have taken to launch an inclusive dialogue on constitutional reform and decentralisation, and to offer an amnesty for those who peacefully leave occupied buildings in eastern Ukraine. I assured Ukrainians of our support for the presidential elections, which must be allowed to take place free from violence and intimidation. On top of our strong support for the work of the OSCE, the UK is providing technical assistance to support public financial management and other reform efforts in Ukraine. We have led the call for the urgent imposition of EU sanctions targeting individuals suspected of misappropriating funds from the Ukrainian state. We hosted the Ukraine Asset Recovery Forum two weeks ago in London, with the United States and Ukraine, in order to co-ordinate this work.

As I have always stressed, the doors of diplomacy remain open. We continue to discuss the situation with Russia, and the Prime Minister had a long conversation with President Putin on 1 May. We strongly supported the Geneva agreement of 17 April and deplore the failure of Russia to join in implementing it. It is right to try now to revive the diplomatic process, and I support and welcome the efforts being made by OSCE Chair-in-Office and President of Switzerland Burkhalter. Last week I met him in Vienna, and I have held further discussions with him over the weekend and yesterday in Brussels. Last Wednesday he met President Putin and put forward a four-point plan, including the immediate launch of a national dialogue by the Ukrainian authorities with OSCE support. We have encouraged Ukraine to respond positively and it is now doing so. The Government have announced that they will hold the first meeting tomorrow, and agreed that there will be both Ukrainian and international mediation in this process.

I strongly believe it is in the interests of all concerned to seize these opportunities to reduce tensions. It is manifestly in the interests of the people of Ukraine, including in Donetsk and Luhansk, where there is a danger of the violence growing even worse and many more lives being lost. It is in the interests of Russia, because some events have already moved beyond their control, and because the long-term economic and political costs to Russia of an escalating crisis will be very serious. It is also urgent, because the situation is deteriorating and the elections are only 12 days away. We look to Russia to exercise its influence and to take every opportunity to restrain those responsible for violence and disorder, consistent with President Putin’s remarks last Wednesday that the elections are a step forward.

Yesterday I attended the Foreign Affairs Council, where we made it clear that attitudes and behaviour towards the holding of the elections will have particular importance in deciding whether or not wider economic and trade sanctions will be applied. Preparations for these sanctions are at an advanced stage. There is no doubt that the Ukrainian authorities are making thorough preparations for the elections to be held, and therefore Russia’s willingness to exercise its influence over illegal armed groups in parts of eastern Ukraine will be the decisive factor in whether everyone in the eastern provinces will be able to exercise their right to vote. Since Russia has taken no practical steps to de-escalate the crisis so far, we agreed to add a new group of 13 individuals and two companies to the list of those persons sanctioned. This is the first time that such entities have been sanctioned by the EU in relation to Ukraine.

We agreed to expand the criteria for sanctions. These will now cover not just individuals directly responsible for undermining the security, territorial integrity, sovereignty and independence of Ukraine, but also a broader range of individuals and entities linked to separatist and illegal activities. For the first time, the sanctions will also be applicable to entities in Crimea or Sevastopol whose ownership has been transferred contrary to Ukrainian law and to those who obstruct the work of international organisations in Ukraine.

At the Foreign Affairs Council, we also called on Russia to take effective steps to fulfil its Geneva commitments: to refrain from provocative actions and intimidation, to use its influence with separatist groups to compel them to disarm and to vacate illegally occupied buildings, and to cease its destabilising campaign.

We demanded that Russia move its troops away from the Ukrainian border. President Putin said last week that troops were returning to their regular training grounds. However we have seen no evidence that Russia has reduced the huge number of its troops stationed just miles from Ukraine, and in fact Moscow continues to encourage the actions of separatists, including through Russia’s state-controlled media.

In addition to these steps, we agreed as Foreign Ministers that the EU will prepare a possible civilian mission to Ukraine to support capacity building in the fields of rule of law and judicial and police reform, and we maintained our firm commitment to sign the remaining provisions of the association agreement with Ukraine, including the deep and comprehensive free trade area, as soon as possible after the presidential elections. It is clear that if Russia does not take the path of de-escalation, the long-term cost to it will grow, in an economy already shrinking and suffering massive capital flight. G7 energy Ministers met in Rome last week and committed themselves to reduce market power and political influence through energy supply. EU leaders will discuss further detailed measures when they meet in June.

The people of Ukraine deserve the right to choose their own Government in a free and fair election, just as we do. They also deserve to be free from external interference and duress and to have the chance to chart an independent future without the debilitating corruption and mismanagement of recent years. They should have every opportunity to be a bridge between east and west—not to have their country pulled apart by the fanning of hatred, the wilful sowing of violent disorder and the insertion of provocateurs and separatists from over their borders.

There is now a fresh opening for Russia and anyone else fostering violence and tension to turn back from the brink. The coming days will demonstrate whether they are going to take it, and the UK will do everything it can to encourage that and to support the holding of open and fair democratic elections.

The international community must continue to be prepared to act with resolve and determination to persuade the Russian Government to change their approach, to defend the rules-based international system, and to prevent a deterioration of the situation in the wider region”.

My Lords, that concludes the Statement.

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[Baroness Warsi]

My Lords, I thank the Benches opposite, and indeed the noble Lord, for the bipartisan approach that has been adopted in this matter and for their support for the Government’s approach.

The noble Lord is absolutely right that actions must follow words and of course some of those words have been positive, such as the reference to the elections as a step forward and the commitment to the Geneva agreement. It is because we must hope for the best but plan for the worst that, at an EU level and bilaterally with many of our partners, we continue to plan for further measures if there was to be an escalation. The kinds of situations to which the noble Lord referred are exactly the kind which would be seen as further escalation. Any sort of prevention of people being allowed to vote or a disruption of these presidential elections would be seen as the kind of areas which would lead to further measures.

The broader criteria will now mean that the people and entities now under consideration go much broader than the initial group of people that we were considering, but I think that the noble Lord will understand if I do not provide him with details of who they are or the kind of organisations that they may be. There are 28 nations at the EU level with which we try to get agreement on these matters, and it is important that we allow the process to take place to reach that agreement.

The noble Lord raised an important point about whether this is an isolated incident. I spent parts of my Recess in Central Asia, where it was interesting to hear from people from the ex-Soviet bloc states, such as Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan, as to how this was being perceived by them and the impact that it could have on the potential customs unions that Russia wishes to take forward. The actions of Russia in relation to its neighbours—the lack of respect for the territorial integrity of its immediate neighbours—does not necessarily bode well for what is considered to be, I hope, an equal relationship when forming those customs unions.

The noble Lord also raised an important point in relation to the Geneva agreement. The signatories to that agreement were of course Russia, Ukraine, the EU and the US. That is the right format in which to take these matters forward, but there is a whole series of measures agreed back on 17 April in that Geneva committee which have not yet been implemented. Specific things were asked of Ukraine: for example, tabling an amnesty law, which has been done; a commitment to constitutional reform, aimed at decentralisation, which has been made; and guarantees on the protection and status of the Russian language, which have been given. There were certain very specific asks of Russia also, which, as the noble Lord said, have not been met. We want to see progress on the asks that have already been agreed and on the specific things agreed at the Geneva committee.

It is important to push back on some of the rhetoric we are hearing about what the people in south and east Ukraine want. Credible polls have been held by organisations that are very close to the ground, which said that something like 70% of people do not see a future for themselves within Russia and do not feel that the Russian language is under attack, for example. We have a responsibility to push back on what clearly is not an accurate account of the situation on the ground.

I thank the noble Lord and the Benches opposite for the huge support they have given to our approach.

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[Baroness Falkner of Margravine]

My Lords, from these Benches I, too, wish to thank the noble Baroness for repeating the Foreign Secretary’s rather comprehensive Statement today updating us on the European Council. It is a happy coincidence that President Didier Burkhalter of Switzerland happens to chair the OSCE at this time, because the OSCE is the right body to defuse tensions. We were very heartened to see that he has suggested to the President of the European Council that he hold a series of round tables to try to mediate the situation. Can the noble Baroness tell us whether the Foreign Ministers of France, Germany and Poland—or, indeed, their representatives—will play a prominent role in the OSCE negotiations? That group of countries negotiated the first accord, which I think was acceptable to all sides in the conflict.

Will the noble Baroness also tell us about the position of Germany? I understand that the German Government are keen that Ambassador Wolfgang Ischinger, the chairman of the Munich Security Conference, should lead a separate round of mediation efforts. I am sure that the noble Baroness does not need me to remind her of this, but I put on the record that it is absolutely critical for the European Union to remain united on this issue through the OSCE. To have individual countries breaking off and setting up their own initiatives for their own geostrategic reasons can hardly be a welcome development from our side but would be welcomed by Mr Putin; it would be an opportunity for him to obfuscate further.

[Baroness Warsi]

My noble friend has always made very incisive and important points. President Didier Burkhalter is indeed leading the OSCE negotiations. Again, the parameters of those negotiations have been clear in relation to the cessation of violence, the facilitation of disarmament and the immediate establishment of a national dialogue. It is important that Ukraine delivers for the Ukrainian people and therefore allows stability within the nation to form the strength and backbone of its approach with Russia.

Our European partners and the Foreign Ministers to whom the noble Baroness refers support that process. It is important that there is a unified EU position. However, as I said earlier, there are 28 member states and Russia relies on the fact that the EU may have a difference of opinion within itself. I took great comfort from the Foreign Affairs Council meeting yesterday, given the fact that we managed to reach agreement on a much broader approach to sanctions. The agreement that, if there is a further escalation, there will be an escalation of sanctions shows that Europe is, thankfully, singing from the same song sheet.

[Lord Wright of Richmond (CB)]

My Lords—

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[Lord Wright of Richmond]

My Lords, I welcome the passage in the Statement that refers to the need for the doors of diplomacy to remain open. Although that clearly relates primarily to the difficulties we have with the Russians on Ukraine, does the Minister agree that there are other subjects that urgently need continued diplomacy with Russia, such as the situation in the Middle East, Syria and Egypt and the threat of Islamic extremism, let alone climate change and energy? It is very important that, however we react to Russian misbehaviour, we do not close those doors.

[Baroness Warsi]

I fully take those views on board. That is why we continue to sit with the Russians on the E3+3 negotiations with Iran. We want Russia to continue to play its role as an international partner, but it must abide by international norms and laws if it wants to continue to do so.

[Lord Soley]

Perhaps the Minister could take this opportunity to remind the House of the importance of a debate on Russia. I have been arguing for that for some time and the Chief Whip has written to me about it. We need to talk about Russia. The first thing that I would like to ask the Minister is whether we are raising with Russia the recognition that there is genuine concern about Russian speakers or people of Russian ethnicity, but they can be better protected by normal human rights legislation, not by moving in special forces to stir up local trouble. Exactly the same concerns arise about the minorities in Crimea, who will now feel very much at risk in view of the occupation by Russia. The way of dealing with minorities in east Europe and Crimea should be part of the agenda.

[Baroness Warsi]

The rights of minority communities, and indeed minority languages, are an issue that every country deals with and struggles with. Indeed, part of my role in the United Kingdom is about dealing with faith and communities and ensuring that all communities feel part of our nation. However, what part of international norms is about saying that you have to invade the territory of another country because you feel that somehow you have an affiliation to a language that may be spoken by some people in that country? Of course it is important for us to support the Ukrainians in their support for these minority communities and to speak out against xenophobia and anti-Semitism, but it is also important to set out what the international norms are.

[Lord Howell of Guildford (Con)]

Earlier I heard someone in another place say that this was now a matter for the whole of the Atlantic alliance, as of course it is. However, when it comes to the matter of illegal annexations, is it not also a matter for the entire global community, including the rising powers of Asia and including China? Have we had any contact with the Chinese authorities? Has the Minister noticed that Mr Putin is going to be in Beijing in a few days’ time, seeking to secure a major long-term sales contract with the Chinese for gas that he feels he may not be able to sell to Europe? Should we not be a bit cautious? Would it not be a pity if we ended up seeing Russia and China driven closer together as a result of our policies?

[Baroness Warsi]

My noble friend may be aware of the United Nations Security Council vote on 15 March, at which Russia found itself completely isolated, and indeed on that particular vote China abstained. In the General Assembly vote a couple of weeks after that on 27 March, the result was 100 to 11. That clearly shows not just a NATO/Russia or US/EU/Russia issue but actually a world issue where Russia is finding itself more and more isolated.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea (Lab)]

My Lords, yes, Russia must be made to pay a heavy price for its conduct, but does the Minister agree that, if there is to be a lasting settlement, the legitimate interests of Russia will have to be recognised and accommodated, and that those interests include, yes, the cultural and linguistic interests of the Russophone people but also the fact that full membership of NATO should not be extended to Ukraine, and that there should be substantial devolution to those areas of the east and the south of Ukraine that want it?

[Baroness Warsi]

I hear what the noble Lord has said, but the legitimate and natural interests of the Ukrainian people surely come before the legitimate interests of any other peoples. It must of course be right that the Ukrainian people are free to decide their future. I do not think that the European Union, or indeed the US, are forcing the Ukrainians to go down any path; I was at the Vilnius conference where these discussions in relation to the association agreement started. I refer the noble Lord right back to when these debates were being held at these Dispatch Boxes; we were incredibly careful with our language, constantly asked for matters to de-escalate and constantly spoke with the Ukrainians to ensure that the issues being raised by the Russians were being addressed.

[Lord Stirrup (CB)]

My Lords, the outgoing Secretary-General of NATO has made clear his concerns about the trends in defence expenditure within the alliance, particularly in light of the international situation. The United Kingdom used to set an example in this regard and thus was able to speak from a position of moral authority. Given the fraught international situation and the issues that we are discussing today, does the Minister not believe that it is time that the United Kingdom resumed its rightful place in this regard?

[Baroness Warsi]

This question has arisen on a number of occasions when we have discussed Ukraine. The noble and gallant Lord will obviously always make a strong case for defence spending. I assure him that in relation to the resources required, certainly to step up the Baltic air-policing mission, the necessary Typhoons were deployed.

[Baroness Rawlings (Con)]

My Lords, the BBC World Service used to broadcast in both Russian and Ukrainian, but these services were cut back with the approval of the Foreign Office. This was based on the argument that the new Russia no longer needed such an effort and that funds should be redirected to the Middle East. Russian and Ukrainian now have only an online offer. In the light of the present situation, will the Foreign Office now allocate some resources for changing this situation fully to support broadcasting to this part of the world, particularly television?

[Baroness Warsi]

My noble friend makes an important point; she knows that this funding was cut back in 2011, and of course matters have changed since then. This matter should be kept under review. The decision made by the BBC will be editorially independent, but in light of how much of this conflict appears to be about a war of words and misinformation we should certainly consider the matter.

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

My Lords, I agree with the Minister’s assertion that the referendums that were held in the east of Ukraine were clearly deeply flawed, and would not pass any normal test of a free and fair election. But I am troubled by the implication of much of what she said, that somehow the feelings in eastern Ukraine and in Crimea are entirely an anxiety manufactured by Russian foreign policy, and that they bear no relation whatever to the real feelings of the people in the area. I put it to her that we are all democrats; we all respect the judgment of the people. Is it really the position of Her Majesty’s Government that whatever the views expressed by people in eastern Ukraine and in Crimea on separation, devolution or independence and whatever their judgment is, these people must remain within the present boundaries of Ukraine under the present constitutional arrangements there? I ask this, of course, with the background of a referendum shortly to take place in part of the United Kingdom about its future boundaries.

[Baroness Warsi]

I sincerely hope that that was not the impression that I gave. If I did, I apologise; it was not how I intended it. From the outset of this crisis, we spoke about making sure that the legitimate concerns of the Ukrainian people, who were raising concerns about minority rights and language, and about decentralisation and much more localised governance, were taken into consideration. This formed the basis of the Geneva agreement, and we have put money into making sure that that is the kind of work that the Ukrainians have started and put in place. Alongside that, the commitments made by Russia too need to be fulfilled and we see no progress on that.

[Baroness Williams of Crosby (LD)]

My Lords, I commend the noble Lord, Lord Grocott. For five years I was an adviser to the Parliament of Ukraine, shortly after Ukraine became independent. I want to bear out what the noble Lords, Lord Grocott and Lord Anderson, said. There are very long historical stories between Ukraine and Russia that are not easy to follow for those of us outside. It is of the first importance that we recognise the need for minorities and their language and culture to be respected and do not involve NATO in any oversight or inspection of the outcome of all this. Does the Minister agree that the OSCE should indicate clearly its support for human rights for minorities? I know this has been said, but it needs to be said over and over again until the Ukrainian Parliament says it too—it is of great importance that we are recognised to be supporting the human rights of everybody in Ukraine, whether they are Russian speakers or Ukrainian speakers.

[Baroness Warsi]

I completely endorse the comments of my noble friend. That is why we continue to press parliamentarians in Ukraine to speak out against xenophobia and anti-Semitism, but we must also remember those minorities which are now in an annexed Crimea. Let us not forget, for example, the Tatar community, which now feels under siege because of what is happening in Crimea. I do not think we can have one rule for one part of Ukraine and not for the other. We must continue to make those demands and expectations of the Ukrainians and also of Russia.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan (CB)]

Without seeking in any way to undermine the principles very properly enunciated by the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, and the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, is it not the case that the attitude of President Putin has been that of unprincipled and utterly ruthless rapacity towards Ukraine, particularly bearing in mind that Russia was one of the signatories of the Budapest pact guaranteeing the very existence of that country and undertaking in the event of any disruption of that situation that the matter be immediately reported to the Security Council? If it be the case that there have to be further sanctions, will Her Majesty’s Government bear it in mind that President Putin has said on many occasions that the defining moment of success in his public life was the introduction of Russia into the G8? Without considering the expulsion of Russia from the G8, the situation could be bypassed by concentration upon the G7. Is that not something that might be demanded on account of not just the rapacity in relation to Ukraine but the possibilities of wider intentions towards many other countries that were part of the old Russian empire?

[Baroness Warsi]

The noble Lord is right that Russia’s actions contravene its obligations under the UN charter, the OSCE Helsinki Final Act and the 1997 partition treaty on the status and conditions of the Black Sea fleet and are in breach of its commitments under the Budapest memorandum signed in 1994. Russia is not following a plethora of its obligations.

[Lord Davies of Stamford (Lab)]

My Lords—

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[Lord Higgins]

Does my noble friend agree, first, that the combination of coalition government and fixed-term Parliaments seems to be resulting in longer and longer recesses and that there is a strong case for us having time to debate this issue in this House on a full-time basis? Secondly, is it not extraordinary that we have such elaborate arrangements on the military defence side of things yet very little thought seems to have been given to economic defence, with the result that we do not have the ability to reach agreement on short notice in the light of the present crisis on economic sanctions? What body is setting up the immediate procedure for dealing with the economic problems and the need to take economic measures in response to this crisis? Should we not have a permanent arrangement covering that?

[Baroness Warsi]

First, in relation to the point on recess, my understanding is that apparently the number of recess days does not exceed what has happened in previous years. As a Minister who is part of this coalition Government, I cannot remember the last time I had recess.

On the economic consequences, it is already clear, for example from the recent downgrade of growth for Russia’s economy from 2.3% to 0.2% this year, the $63 billion capital flight and the downgrading of Russian bonds, that this is having a real impact on Russia’s economy. The format for making sure that these sanctions are having an impact has been, among other things, the EU Foreign Affairs Committee. It is because there is constant planning happening that when there is an escalation in the situation there is an escalation in sanctions, and those sanctions are biting.

[Lord Davies of Stamford]

The Minister said a few moments ago that she was very careful about language. I put it to her that her right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary was most unfortunate in his language in one section of the Statement, when he said:

“We demanded that Russia move its troops away from the Ukrainian border”.

I do not need to remind the House and the Minister that Russia’s troops are, unfortunately, already within the Ukrainian border, in Crimea. It is most unfortunate, undesirable and dangerous to use language that implies that, even if we have not accepted that situation formally or legally, we have somehow psychologically acquiesced in the annexation by Russia of Ukraine.

Does the Minister agree with me that President Putin will naturally take whatever he thinks he can get away with? The sanctions that we imposed on him after the illegal annexation of Crimea were so footling—at the time I think that I described them as “derisory”—that it is hardly surprising that he has come back for a bigger bite. Does the Minister accept that, if we are going to need new sanctions, they had better this time be a great deal more powerful, because she has a very considerable credibility gap to cover?

[Baroness Warsi]

I have outlined the impact that the sanctions are already having. We are designing these sanctions in such a way as to have a maximum impact on Russia with the minimum impact on others—but, of course, there will be an impact on others, including on ourselves. HMG do not accept—the Foreign Secretary has said this on numerous occasions—the illegal annexation of Crimea. I do not think that anything in the Statement suggests that we do.