Fracking
Debate between Baroness Verma and Lord Wigley(9 years, 8 months ago)
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Baroness Verma
My Lords, the economic impact of shale, both locally and nationally, will of course depend on production. However, there will clearly be opportunities for the UK to benefit, particularly through being much more self-sufficient in energy production. On the wider issues that the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, mentioned, we need to make sure that, during the process, communities—the public—have opportunities to partake in the consultation at many junctures.
Lord Wigley (PC)
My Lords, does the Minister accept that, since the Infrastructure Bill went through this Chamber a few months ago, there have been changes with regard to both Scotland and Wales and that control over on-land fracking will be devolved? Indeed, in the National Assembly in Cardiff, an indicative resolution was passed supporting a moratorium, supported by Members of all parties. In these circumstances, can she give an assurance that all those approaching the department with regard to fracking will be notified that the situation in Wales and Scotland may be different?
Baroness Verma
My Lords, we have made it clear that onshore exploration will be devolved.
Wales: Fracking
Debate between Baroness Verma and Lord Wigley
Lord Wigley
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what representations they have received from the Welsh Government concerning the control and management of fracking for gas in Wales.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change (Baroness Verma) (Con)
My Lords, the Government have been in regular contact with the Welsh Government on the subject of shale gas and have had a number of official representations. The UK Government welcome the Welsh Affairs Committee’s report, Energy Generation in Wales: Shale Gas, which was received in June. Both Governments engaged throughout the process of that committee by submitting oral and written evidence. We welcome the conclusion from the committee that it is vital that the UK identifies new sources of gas to safeguard the UK’s security of supply. The UK Government are clear that developing shale gas and oil will not come at the cost of public health or the environment.
Lord Wigley (PC)
My Lords, in view of the recommendations of the Smith commission report that responsibility for the licensing of onshore gas development in Scotland should be transferred to the Scottish Parliament, and in view of the commitment given by the Prime Minister on 19 September that Wales would not miss out with regards to any such development in Scotland, can the Minister give an assurance that consideration will now be given to transferring to the National Assembly for Wales and to the Welsh Government responsibility for fracking in Wales?
Baroness Verma
My Lords, as I made quite clear in my opening remarks in reply to the noble Lord’s Question, the Government are in close communication with the Welsh Government on these issues.
Infrastructure Bill [HL]
Debate between Baroness Verma and Lord Wigley(10 years ago)
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Baroness Verma
My Lords, I note the clause stand part amendments and the amendment proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, regarding the application of the right to use deep-level land for the purposes of exploiting petroleum or deep geothermal energy in Wales. The Government support the development of shale gas and oil. Natural gas from shale could play a crucial role in supporting UK energy security, as well as an important role as a part of the transition to a low-carbon economy, and that was well debated previously. The carbon footprint of UK-produced shale gas would likely be significantly less than coal and lower than imported liquefied natural gas. Domestic shale gas could also benefit the UK in terms of jobs, tax revenues and growth, mitigating some of the falling revenues from the North Sea.
However, it has become clear that difficulties in obtaining underground access pose a barrier to exploring this new industry. The same problem also applies to the deep geothermal industry, which is likewise at an early stage of development in the UK. New lateral drilling methods that can cover much larger areas underground mean that existing processes for obtaining underground access can be disproportionately costly and time consuming in relation to the potential benefits. Currently, companies must negotiate rights of access with every landowner living above underground drilling. If these negotiations fail, an oil and gas operator can make an application to the Secretary of State, who may refer the matter to the courts. This process gives a single landowner the power to delay a development significantly and, in the case of geothermal, it is likely to stop the project entirely.
The right to use deep-level land would help unlock exploration for shale gas and deep geothermal as we move towards a low-carbon economy. However, let me be clear that we are not proposing any changes to the regime for surface access, and the regulatory system that deals with the potential risks associated with drilling and hydraulic fracturing will remain the same. I can reassure noble Lords that a company looking to develop shale or geothermal would still need to obtain all the necessary permissions, such as planning and environmental permits. The onshore oil and gas industry has committed to engage with communities at the early stage of operations, as well as consulting through the planning application process. Our robust regulation will protect residents while allowing this source of homegrown energy to develop in a way that is fair to communities.
EY has estimated a thriving industry could mean 64,500 jobs nationally. Locally, that could mean cementing contracts, new facilities and jobs for local companies. Communities that host shale development could see a share of this, which is why we welcome the developers community benefit package, similar to other technologies such as wind. This will pay communities £100,000 per hydraulically fractured well site at exploratory stage and 1% of revenue if it successfully goes into production. As with wind farms, wider communities will benefit too, as local councils will also be able to retain 100% of the business rates that they collect from productive shale gas. Therefore, there are many potentials of this industry to communities in Wales if shale production takes place.
Petroleum extraction is a non-devolved matter. As such, the proposals for oil and gas will apply across England, Wales and Scotland. The proposals on deep geothermal energy also cover England, Wales and Scotland, where in Scotland deep geothermal energy is exploited for the sole, or main purpose of electricity generation. Schedule 7 to the Government of Wales Act 2006 sets out the conferred subjects over which the Welsh Assembly can exercise legislative competence. Oil and gas are clear exemptions from the conferred list of economic development and, furthermore, the exploitation of deep geothermal resources could not be considered to have been conferred under any of the subjects in Schedule 7.
Although deep geothermal and oil and gas activity may impact upon conferred subjects such as environmental protection, that is not what they properly relate to for the purposes of the legislative competence test in the Government of Wales Act 2006. In addition, the right of use clauses are not removing any existing regulatory requirements. We therefore see no ground on which this measure would be within the legislative competence of the Welsh Assembly. On that basis, there is no rationale for requiring approval by the Welsh Assembly before the section can apply in Wales.
It is also worth noting that, while oil and gas are non-devolved matters, all existing planning authority procedures and powers will remain in place. As such, the different UK planning regimes will continue to regulate shale gas or geothermal developments according to their existing planning procedures. I have reflected on the noble Lord’s amendment and in response to his concerns I have offered him a government perspective. Therefore, I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, will withdraw his amendment.
Lord Wigley
I am very grateful to those who have taken part in the debate and to the Minister for her response. Quite clearly, I would be unlikely to carry the House on the amendment that the clause should not stand part of the Bill. Although my heart would want me to go down that road, I suspect that I would come to a blind alley. Therefore, I will not press it on this occasion because there will be opportunities in another place. I have no doubt that many Members of all parties in the other place will wish to come back to this because there is deep concern outside.
Even if one was in favour of fracking in principle, I would have thought that it would be very wise to pay attention and take the maximum possible notice of the reservations that exist outside, because these are the real fears of real people in real communities, and they need to be addressed. Members in all parts of the House have expressed that in the series of debates we have had tonight.
Turning to the lead amendment in the group, which relates to the powers of the National Assembly for Wales, I think that it is ironic that at a little earlier than this time tomorrow—as the noble Lord, Lord Bourne, on the Government Front Bench, will be well aware—we will consider an amendment that would change the model of devolution for Wales to a reserved-powers model of the sort that exists for Northern Ireland and Scotland. This was a recommendation of the Silk commission, of which the noble Lord, Lord Bourne, was a member, and which appeared to have all-party support in Committee in this House. The Report stage of that Bill takes place tomorrow. That being so, unless there was a specific exemption made for these purposes, it would not be enough to rely on the 2006 Act, which the Minister has relied on in the debate tonight.
However, rather than argue technical, legalistic points arising out of legislation, I put this to the Minister in conclusion. When the National Assembly for Wales has responsibility for the environment, particularly for town and country planning, transport, and economic development within Wales, as well as health proposals, then surely it makes all sense to put the responsibility for this area also into its hands—at the very least to make sure that there is a working together. That surely was the intention of the Government when they responded to the Select Committee on Welsh Affairs report. I will not quote it again, but it underlined the fact that planning policy is a devolved matter and that planning is integrally involved in the decisions we are talking about in regard to fracking.
Therefore, I ask the Minister whether she will take this away between now and the debates in another place and give further thought, particularly in the light of the debate we will have on the Wales Bill tomorrow, as to whether there is a mechanism to make sure that the National Assembly for Wales and the Government of Wales are totally on board in a dialogue on these matters so that, in keeping with the principle of subsidiarity, the decisions affecting communities can be taken as close as possible to those communities—in this context, decisions affecting Wales can be taken by the National Assembly where possible. On that basis, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Energy: Action on Bills
Debate between Baroness Verma and Lord Wigley
Baroness Verma
My Lords, I thank my noble friend for his endorsement of the Statement and the work behind the scenes to ensure that we have not lost all the important elements and measures that will reduce carbon, provide energy efficiency and help the most vulnerable households that we need to make sure we are helping.
My noble friend asked when the new schemes will come in. They will come in around mid-2014. They have to follow the proper processes and consultations. Ofgem regulates the distribution network operators. It is for Ofgem to ensure that the costs the networks are proposing are viable. We must accept the package in the round. A lot of things need to be done. This Government are taking that on board.
My noble friend asked about competition and coal. We are taking both extremely seriously, and I hope to come back with a little more detail about how we propose to see Ofgem strengthen what it is doing to ensure that there is greater transparency on how energy companies use their profits.
Lord Wigley (PC)
My Lords, the Minister will be aware that in many rural areas people are dependent on off-grid supplies for their energy. In what way and by what mechanism will those people in rural areas be helped by this package?
Baroness Verma
My Lords, I fear I shall not be able to answer the noble Lord straightaway. If he will allow me, I shall write to him. I suspect that this will not have a direct impact, but I shall clarify that rather than a make a statement that fails.
Nuclear Power: Procurement
Debate between Baroness Verma and Lord Wigley
Baroness Verma
My Lords, on my noble friend’s first question, I will be happy to put into the Library the information that we have at hand. However, the memorandum of understanding is between two private companies, so I will go back to see if they will be happy to have something put in the Library. On my noble friend’s second question, while MOX remains the Government’s preferred option, we are in active talks with a number of providers. I reassure my noble friend that the conversations are ongoing, but we still have a preferred option.
Lord Wigley (PC)
Does the Minister understand that in the context of the proposed new Wylfa B nuclear power station, the likely builders are a Japanese-led consortium led by Hitachi, which has also been looking at building nuclear power stations in Lithuania and possibly other locations on the European mainland? Does she accept that the uncertainty with regard to the future UK membership of the European Union may well mititate against maximising the number of contracts for British companies arising from situations such as that in Wylfa?
Baroness Verma
My Lords, the fact is that we have a lot of interest from a lot of companies coming to the UK. We should be very proud that there is so much interest. We have an excellent skills base here and we should welcome all investors to our country.
Energy Bill
Debate between Baroness Verma and Lord Wigley
Baroness Verma
My Lords, I thank the noble Lords, Lord Whitty and Lord Grantchester, and the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, for their amendments. I also thank all noble Lords who have taken part in this important debate on the nuclear regulation clauses in the Bill. My noble friends Lord Jenkin and Lord Caithness, who have a great deal of experience and knowledge in these matters, are right to point out that there could be some confusion if we were to take these amendments as they are laid out.
Amendment 76A seeks to expand the ONR’s nuclear safety purposes to include responsibility for the environment. As my noble friend Lord Jenkin pointed out, a regulatory framework is already in place to protect the environment and the relevant agencies—the Environment Agency, the Scottish Environment Protection Agency and Natural Resources Wales—are well placed to carry out this role. The interim ONR has a strong working relationship with these regulators, which will continue once the ONR becomes a statutory body.
I understand noble Lords’ interest in the regulation of the environment but it would not be appropriate to expand the ONR’s purposes to overlap with those of established regulators. This would create conflict between two different regulators in the same field and place additional regulatory burdens upon members of the regulated community. As I said earlier, it would create confusion.
Amendment 78B seeks to include a new clause in the Bill concerning the design and construction of nuclear installations. It places a responsibility on the ONR, in conjunction with the Environment Agency, to regulate the design and construction of installations. The amendment also requires that the ONR alone is responsible for ensuring not only the highest technological and safety standards but that the most cost-effective measures are taken.
First, I reassure noble Lords that the regulation of the design and construction of nuclear installations is firmly within the ONR’s purposes and that the organisation, through well established legislation such as the Nuclear Installations Act 1965 and the Health and Safety at Work etc. Act 1974 will continue to do this. Secondly, the ONR has a strong working relationship with the Environment Agency in its generic design programme, and this will continue to be in place. To place such a duty in the Bill is therefore unnecessary. It would also be inappropriate to place the ONR under a duty to require the industry to use the most advanced technology available. The role of the ONR is to ensure that the design and construction of nuclear installations meet safety standards. This may involve the use of new or advanced technology. However, the focus is rightly on achieving the highest possible safety standards.
I reassure noble Lords that in undertaking its function with respect to the design and construction of nuclear installations, the ONR will work to ensure that these plants are designed and built not only to be safe but to make use of appropriately advanced and proven technology. It would be grossly inappropriate to place a duty on the safety regulator to regulate the cost efficiency of the construction of these installations. Such a requirement risks diverting the ONR’s attention away from its crucial safety role and placing potentially conflicting requirements on its regulators.
I agree with the sentiment that nuclear installations must be designed, built and operated to deliver value for money. However, I do not believe that this should or can be achieved by placing the safety regulator in the position where it must ensure that this is the case. It is for companies such as EDF to build and operate new nuclear power stations and make decisions about which reactors they use. It is important that any reactor used is safe and effective in its design, and the UK has a strong regulatory regime in place to ensure that that is the case. I understand that we need to have value for consumers, but it is not the role of the ONR to involve itself in the cost of design. The central role for the ONR is to ensure that we have the highest standards of safety in place.
My noble friend Lord Jenkin asked whether the ONR was expecting too much in terms of safety. The ONR expects nuclear installations to reduce risk as far as is reasonably practical. That is an established tenet of health and safety law and the nuclear industry is comfortable working within this regulatory framework.
The noble Lord, Lord Wigley, asked what would happen to the decommissioning costs if an operator became bankrupt. Under the funded decommissioning programme, operators of new nuclear power stations will be required to meet agreements from the Secretary of State to ensure that costs of waste management and decommissioning are met from day one for operators. These arrangements will need to be independent of the operator and will therefore take account of the operator going bankrupt.
Lord Wigley
I am very grateful to the Minister. I have no doubt that there will be a funding process that ensures that there is a pool of money to meet what is foreseen as the decommissioning costs. However, what happens if the standards, as they develop over a lifetime or 20 or 30 years, change in a way that leads to additional costs, or if the economic circumstances of the company disintegrate, for whatever reason, and it is not able to top up that pool as it goes along? What, then, is the safeguard that she and the Government can give to communities that there will be somebody who will step in and not leave them with a nuclear hulk, with all the implications that that could have? Those assurances are needed by the communities that are going to be welcoming these nuclear installations.
Baroness Verma
My Lords, I take the noble Lord’s concerns very seriously. It may be helpful if he would allow me to write to him in further detail about the decommissioning plans that we have in place. I will try to reassure him that the independents with these funds in place are away from the operators, and we are keen to make sure that the funds are met. However, since I have not reassured him enough, I think it may be helpful to write to him.
My noble friend the Duke of Montrose asked if the ONR will regulate ongoing operations of power stations. The ONR will continue to regulate and monitor installations as they are operating and beyond. It will continue to work closely with the Environment Agency and, of course, the other, separate agencies of the devolved powers to ensure that the effects of nuclear power generation on the environment are monitored and action taken where necessary.
My noble friend Lord Caithness said that we should have a single design for reactors. The Government’s position has always been clear in that we encourage diversity in reactor design but of course, as with all things, they have to meet the highest standards that we expect of them.
Energy: Long-term Supply
Debate between Baroness Verma and Lord Wigley(11 years, 1 month ago)
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Baroness Verma
My Lords, my noble friend is of course right to raise the greater transparency that energy companies need to demonstrate in showing where costs are. However, the main driver behind energy price rises has been wholesale energy costs. We want a secure energy market; we need a diverse mix. We also need to meet our legal obligations, which have been set through the Climate Change Act 2008 and our globally agreed targets. We are working hard to ensure that we press energy companies to be as transparent and as open as possible with what they are putting on their energy bills.
Lord Wigley (PC)
My Lords, as a keen supporter of having new reactors at the Wylfa nuclear power station in Anglesey, I press the Minister to clarify the Government’s policy on the decommissioning of nuclear power stations. Is she aware that the Trawsfynydd nuclear power station, which ceased electricity generation 20 years ago, still employs 700 people on the decommissioning? Will she give a guarantee that, first, the companies providing new reactors will have to internalise the costs of decommissioning and, secondly, in the event that that fails to happen, there will be a copper-bottomed government guarantee that the communities welcoming these new developments will not be left without cover for those costs?
Baroness Verma
My Lords, the noble Lord asks a very important question. Of course, the Government have pledged not to put any public subsidy in place for any costs of new nuclear, including decommissioning. As part of the acceptance of any agreement with a company wishing to site nuclear, it will need to show that decommissioning costs have already been included in its costings.
Atmospheric Carbon
Debate between Baroness Verma and Lord Wigley
Lord Wigley
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they will take to address the increase in the level of atmospheric carbon recently recorded by the monitoring station at Mauna Loa in Hawaii.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change (Baroness Verma)
My Lords, I am aware that this spring, for the first time, atmospheric carbon dioxide levels briefly reached 400 parts per million in some parts of the world, compared with pre-industrial levels of approximately 280 parts per million. Domestically, the UK has committed to achieve at least an 80% cut in carbon emissions by 2050. Internationally, through the UN Framework Convention on Climate Change, the Government are working towards adopting an ambitious and legally binding global deal in 2015, increasing mitigation ambition in the period up to 2020, and continuing to build a climate regime that will ensure that countries’ commitments are measurable, transparent and comparable.
Lord Wigley
My Lords, is the Minister aware that the last time atmospheric carbon hit the 400 parts per million level was 3 million years ago when the Arctic was free of ice and sea levels were 40 metres higher than they are today? Given the comments of the Environment Minister, Owen Paterson, on “Any Questions?” last Friday, which suggested that he is in denial about the contribution of carbon to climate change, can she give an assurance that the Government will stick by their policy and confirm that they recognise that the greatest contributor to climate change is in fact carbon? That is the opinion of the overwhelming majority of the scientific community. Will she put it to the Government that this issue should be high on the agenda at the G8 meeting next week in Northern Ireland?
Baroness Verma
My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord that a large majority of scientists around the world agree that there is evidence of global warming through carbon emissions. We as a Government remain committed to reducing carbon emissions and I hope that my first Answer gave the noble Lord some reassurance on that.
Energy: Prices
Debate between Baroness Verma and Lord Wigley
Baroness Verma
My noble friend is absolutely right, but America is a very different place from the United Kingdom. Through our diverse mix of energy sourcing and our usage of traditional energy supplies, we are determined to give our consumers the best possible deal that they can get. However, to reflect on the point I made earlier, global prices are going up because emerging economies have a greater demand on them.
Lord Wigley
My Lords, have the Government given any consideration to the earlier payment of winter fuel allowance so that recipients can not only better plan their fuel expenditure but can also buy earlier in the year when prices are cheaper?
Baroness Verma
My Lords, it is an interesting option, which I think I will take back to the department. Through the Energy Bill and through the ECO the Government are reaching out to the most vulnerable families and tackling as early as possible the issue of those who need support. We are doing that and helping 2 million households at the current time.
Severn Barrage
Debate between Baroness Verma and Lord Wigley(11 years, 10 months ago)
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Baroness Verma
I am extremely grateful for my noble friend’s support for my Answer. I reiterate that it is incumbent on all Governments to make sure that whatever projects they agree to have looked at all the detail. Thus far, we are not satisfied that we have had enough detail from the consortium on this.
Lord Wigley
My Lords, subject to the environmental conditions that the Minister mentioned being met, given that the project could generate 5% of the UK’s energy needs, and in view of the Welsh economy’s need for a kick-start of this sort, will she give an assurance that the Government will support this project?
Baroness Verma
I cannot say that the Government will support this project until we are satisfied that all the details that are needed to ensure that it is environmentally and economically viable are met. Those conditions have not yet been met.