Infrastructure Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Verma and Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts

Tuesday 14th October 2014 Grand Committee

[Baroness Verma]

I have laid out very clearly our position in government. Generally, hypothecation of revenue is not something that we support.

I conclude by recognising that the noble Lord has made some incredibly important points, but I feel that I cannot accept his amendment and hope that he withdraws it.

[Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts]

I thank my noble friend. I feared that “inappropriate” and “hypothecation” would be words used in the arguments produced. I am grateful to noble Lords who have taken part in support of the amendment. The noble Lord, Lord Teverson, put his finger on the matter. If we do not set it up when we start, it will never get set up; it either happens now or it will never happen. Once the money starts to flow, no Government will ever take their hands off it, and the Treasury certainly will not. So we either set the framework up now or this will go the same way as North Sea oil.

The argument that my noble friend has not answered at all—it is unanswerable—is about the inter-generational fairness. Why should we spend it all on ourselves? No matter what the situation may be, if we have got ourselves in a hole we should clamber out of it and not try to rob future generations of what they should share with us. I shall not go on any further, but I am disappointed with what my noble friend has said, although I am not surprised. I shall discuss the matter with people who are more sympathetic with what I am trying to achieve and see whether they want to come back to this at a later stage. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Charities Act 2006 (Principal Regulators of Exempt Charities) Regulations 2011

Debate between Baroness Verma and Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts

Tuesday 5th July 2011 Grand Committee

[Baroness Verma]

Since this is a legal and technical matter, perhaps I could write to my noble friend. I know that such words can change the law very quickly, and I shall not be drawn into that trap by my noble friend today.

On the issue of independence, both the Charity Commission and the Cabinet Office are satisfied that the appointment of the Secretary of State for Education and the Welsh Minister as principal regulators will not give rise to an inherent conflict of interest. The commission and the principal regulator will work together to ensure that a charity’s independence is maintained. The functioning roles already have accountability. There is no conflict, since assurance is largely derived from the funding function and both roles require similar levels of assurance.

We all accept that the law on exempt charities is an incredibly complex area with a complex history. More than anybody else in this Committee, my noble friend is aware of the difficulties that this law raises. I accept that we would rather be in a better position, but we are where we are and it is difficult to unpick some of the complexities. As a result, we should go for a simpler legal regulatory framework for exempt charities. It has always been intended for exempt charities to be exempt. When the ASCL Bill was enacted, it was agreed that this would be done through exempt-charity SIs. That is what these instruments do.

My noble friend Lord Hodgson spoke on the MOUs. Principal regulators are not expected to be experts in charity law. It is not their job to be, nor is it their duty to promote charity law unless charity law compliance requires it. Expertise in charity law lies with the Charity Commission. That is why the commission has investigation and enforcement powers in relation to exempt charities.

My noble friend also asked why the Education Funding Agency is not the regulator. As I said to my noble friend Lord Phillips, the EFA will be an agency of the Secretary of State. It will not have a separate legal personality, so it cannot be appointed as the principal regulator.

[Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts]

Will the MOU be in place when the regulations come into force on 1 August?

[Baroness Verma]

I have been told by my experts behind me that it will be shortly afterwards.

The noble Baroness, Lady Royall, reminded us of the effectiveness of the regulators. The principal regulator approach will not mean less effective regulation. It will be entirely valid to use different models of regulation to fit the circumstances so that we end up with smarter regulation that maintains trust and confidence in charities. Using an existing regulator’s processes and procedures to oversee charity compliance avoids costly and wasteful duplication.

The noble Baroness asked also about free schools. Free schools are a type of academy. They are charities in the same way as other academies. She asked also about the MOUs between the Charity Commission and principal regulators. MOUs will be published on the Charity Commission website. We are happy to deposit copies in the House Library.

I suspect that I have not given satisfactory answers to my noble friends who are experts in this area. I hope that they can be assured that I will provide written responses to questions to which they feel they have not answers.

The regulations are about making the system leaner and smarter. I therefore commend them to the House.