Social Fund Winter Fuel Payment Regulations 2024
Debate between Baroness Verma and Lord Empey(2 months, 2 weeks ago)
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Baroness Verma (Con)
My Lords, I have listened to the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, and my noble friend Lady Stedman-Scott on the Front Bench, and I have sat here thinking, “How did we come to this?”—a first-world country that could treat our pensioners so badly. How could we sit here and have a debate about taking away really needed money from the elderly and most vulnerable people in our communities? Today is quite a cold day; it suddenly went cold, and I am feeling it, and I am pretty certain that most pensioners in their households will be thinking, “Should I switch the heating on or leave it off?”
I speak on behalf of the 10,207 pensioners in the city of Leicester who are now not going to receive this payment. I feel sad, but also ashamed that we are standing here debating a very small saving in the bigger scheme of things. I do not understand it—I do not get it—because I felt that we were a country that looked after the most vulnerable. I felt that we were this gold standard that people looked at, and that we were able to say that we protect those who cannot protect themselves. Yet here we are, quite happy to debate £1.4 billion. I am not going to challenge the public sector workers’ pay award; I just want to focus long and hard on why we are sitting here thinking that we have no hope in changing the Government’s mind. If the Government really want to help, they need to take this ridiculous notion back and rethink. If the Government want to save £1.4 billion there are plenty of other ways of doing it, and I urge the Government to use them.
Lord Empey (UUP)
I, and I think many colleagues in the House, were surprised when this measure was selected to save money. We understand why Governments have to save money from time to time; we seem to have forgotten that we spent our way out of the Covid crisis, which has contributed very substantially to the debts this nation has and which the next generation will be paying back—and maybe their children as well. The Labour Party has just won a very convincing election victory, and while I understand what the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, and indeed what the noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, said with regard to challenging this measure, I personally do not think it is appropriate for us to challenge a newly elected Government at this stage, even though this measure was not in their manifesto and must have been clearly in their mind before the election—they did not just invent it on 4 July.
However, this idea is bonkers. It is not going to save £1.4 billion and, as the noble Lord, Lord McCrea, said, it will probably increase the number of people who will have to engage in health service requirements. If we manage to increase the take-up of pension credits, that is well and good, but that will also take away from the £1.4 billion saving. The Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee, a very highly respected committee in this House, has rarely produced a more depressing commentary than that on how the Government have dealt with this.
I would also like to localise the impact of this measure. The noble Lord, Lord McCrea, made a point about how my own region in Northern Ireland will be affected. We have 306,000 households that get the allowance, but that number will be reduced to 57,000, plus whatever additional pension credit is claimed. The noble Lord, Lord Davies of Brixton, made a forensic assessment of these proposals, but we all know that that is going to be at the margins; no matter how we push these things, there are a whole variety of reasons why we cannot achieve them. Nevertheless, of all the issues that we could look at to save money, this is the last area at which we should look. I just do not understand it. This is a poll tax moment for the Labour Party—it is on that scale, and it will last. It will not go away.
I can only suggest to the Government what I think has happened: they have got themselves on to the hook, and for tough-guy leadership reasons the Prime Minister does not want to be seen to be backing off —blah, blah, blah. The Government forced their MPs into the Lobby or sent them off with a slip for the day. They said, “Get out of the way, do not vote against us”, et cetera. I understand all that.
However, I think that we all would respect and acknowledge a Government that said, “Okay, perhaps we haven’t gone about this the right way. We will find other savings, but we will start a consultation process as we normally would, through the system, and see what we can come up with”. We all know that many of us in this House get the benefit, and we do not need it. So, tax it, or do whatever you like—the noble Lord, Lord Palmer, is an accountant and he knows these things—but, whatever can be done, let us do it. “Please”, we must say again to the Government, “this is bonkers”.
Warm Home Discount (Miscellaneous Amendments) Regulations 2015
Debate between Baroness Verma and Lord Empey(9 years, 9 months ago)
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Lord Empey (UUP)
My Lords, in very broad terms I welcome the extension, although the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, makes a fair point about its annual nature. However, there is one part of the regulations that concerns me, and that is the territorial extent and application. The regulations are confined to Great Britain. I have no doubt that the noble Baroness will say, “There’s devolution and therefore the Northern Ireland Assembly has a role”. However, the Welsh Assembly Government have a role. Indeed, they have a fuel poverty strategy and a budget. The Scottish Government also have a role. They have a very substantial budget and are involved as well.
Fuel poverty exists throughout the United Kingdom but the area with the highest level of fuel poverty is Northern Ireland. There are two reasons for that: first, earnings are lower and, secondly, energy costs are dramatically higher. The lack of an extension of the natural gas network to very large parts of the Province has meant an overdependence on kerosene for heating. Until comparatively recently, kerosene has been extremely expensive, and electricity has been notoriously expensive for more than 30 years.
I do not have a fundamental objection to the proposal before us but I am concerned to know precisely what part of our devolution settlement distinguishes Northern Ireland from Scotland and Wales in regard to this issue. It is perfectly clear that Scotland and Wales have policies, strategies and budgets and that they are involved in this. Energy suppliers throughout the country are of course involved as well, and I understand that. However, some years ago the Government conceded that there was a gap in the system, because devolution is an evolving process. We have just had a discussion about planning, in which it was said that planning in Scotland is separate from planning in England. That is fine, but it is just not realistic to imagine that expertise in an area such as nuclear waste disposal can be devolved and spread around the country.
I just make the point that there appears to be a difference of opinion here. Age Sector Platform in Northern Ireland lobbies Parliament every year. It did so towards the end of last year and it spoke to Members of both the House of Commons and your Lordships’ House. It has consistently argued that this is a national as well as a local issue. I would be very grateful if the Minister could explain to me precisely what differentiates Northern Ireland from Scotland and Wales in this matter. If the response is not immediately available, I shall be very happy if she writes to me, as I accept that there are complications. However, I just wanted to flag up for the record that we have doubts as to whether this is something that is entirely devolved in our case. The noble Baroness may say, “Of course, if we spent more money”—and money has been allocated here—“there would be Barnett consequentials for Northern Ireland, as there would be for Scotland and Wales”. That is true, but Barnett consequentials are not necessarily spent in devolved regions on the matters for which they receive the money. To take an extreme example, if there were a Barnett consequential as a result of this proposal, a devolved Administration could spend it on transport or anything else—there is no link. In other words, the money is not ring-fenced, yet Northern Ireland has the highest level of fuel poverty compared with anywhere in the United Kingdom. No one argues about that; it is a fact.
We have here a proposal that I broadly support, but I am concerned that I, and a number of people in Northern Ireland, are not clear on why there is this differentiation. As the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, will know, the devolved Administration has energy responsibilities; indeed, I was Energy Minister myself for three years in the early stages of devolution. I know that our Department for Social Development also has a role: it promotes boiler replacement schemes and other measures that I know are very important to people. We have had insulation proposals and draught-proofing—the routine sorts of things that we all have. However, it is the differentiation between Scotland and ourselves in particular that I am unclear about, and I would be grateful if the Minister could clarify it, either today or at a later date.
Baroness Verma
My Lords, I am extremely grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Empey, and the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, for their contributions. I agree with the noble Baroness—we are agreeing a lot today—that it is criminal to have so many of our citizens living in fuel poverty. However, we also have among the most energy-inefficient housing stock in Europe, and we need to address a number of issues at the same time. The scale of this is huge.
To return to today’s order, the response to the question of why it should be extended for a year if it is working so well is that we want to extend it to a year but, as the noble Baroness is aware, the commitments will then be dependent on the next spending round. While we can commit to the extension this year, the next Government will have to make commitments for further extensions, or not. We need to look at the core reasons underpinning why people are living in such inefficient homes and at how we better ensure that we resolve that part of the difficulty. The measures that we have undertaken, whether it is the Green Deal, the ECO or the rollout of the smart metering programme, will all add to helping consumers to take greater charge of how they have control over their own energy needs.
I agree with the noble Baroness that we have a long and high hill to climb, which is why, as she points out, we need to work much better across government. We are working with the Cabinet Office on how we can better data-share. On her question, “Why use energy suppliers?”, the mechanism to deliver this is cost-effective. It is right that we also try to ensure that we do not add extra costs in delivery. If it is in the interests of the suppliers, given that competition is now greater in the marketplace, it will ensure that they deliver better, more effectively and more efficiently; otherwise, they know that the process of switching to another supplier is much easier. There are lots of processes going on, and we need to ensure that those people who need to benefit the most have access to the information.
I say to the noble Lord, Lord Empey, that it would be better to write to him. He has laid out rather a detailed question on Northern Ireland. He has already mentioned the Department for Social Development, which, as he will know well, already offers energy efficiency improvement schemes for low-income households. It would not do justice to his question if I were to skimp on replying now; I would rather write to him and perhaps send a copy to the Committee, if that is agreeable.
Baroness Verma
As the noble Baroness is always aware, I am very happy to take that away and have discussions outside of the Committee with her and any other noble Lord who would be interested in the subject matter. The ultimate goal for all of us is to try to reduce the impact of any extra cost on those who can least afford it. I am very happy to take that away and have discussions with the noble Baroness and others.
Lord Empey
I am very happy that the Minister has said that she will write to me; I appreciate that. For clarity, I am aware of the Department for Social Development’s role, but my precise point is that similar roles appear to be played by the Scottish and Welsh Governments. I am trying to get at the precise difference between those three. I am very grateful to the noble Baroness.
Energy Bill
Debate between Baroness Verma and Lord Empey
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change (Baroness Verma)
My Lords, I speak to the government amendments in this group, which I hope noble Lords will welcome. The amendments extend the decarbonisation provisions in Part 1 across the UK so that they cover the Northern Ireland electricity sector. The provisions currently extend only to Great Britain.
As set out in the other place, it has always been the Government’s ambition to extend this policy to Northern Ireland. However, since energy is a transferred matter with respect to Northern Ireland, it was appropriate that we first go through the formal process of seeking agreement from the Northern Ireland Executive. I am pleased to say that we now have this agreement and that they will bring forward a legislative consent Motion in due course.
I will briefly set out the effect of these government amendments and their benefits. Their primary effect is to extend the provisions in Part 1 to the whole of the UK. If and when the power is exercised, there will be a legal requirement on the Secretary of State to ensure that the carbon intensity of electricity generation in the UK as a whole is no greater than the upper end of the decarbonisation target range. This duty is intended to be met through the existing powers of the Secretary of State or through negotiation with Northern Ireland Ministers.
The provisions in Part 1 include a number of ways to ensure that there will be proper and full consideration of the impacts of any decarbonisation target range on the single electricity market, which is the wholesale electricity market operating in Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. For example, Clause 2(2)(f) and (g), with our amendments, require the Secretary of State when setting or amending a target range to consider the impact of any target range on the Northern Ireland energy market and take into account the difference in circumstances between Northern Ireland and the rest of Great Britain.
Furthermore, Clause 4, with our amendments, will require the Secretary of State to consult Northern Ireland Ministers before setting or amending any target range, and if and when making further provision about the definition of grid carbon intensity under the power in Clause 4(4).
These amendments will mean that a decarbonisation target range could be set across the whole of the UK and, as a result, could help to provide greater investor certainty on the long-term trajectory of the electricity sector across the UK as a whole. This would complement our efforts in meeting our legally binding carbon budgets, which are also set for the whole of the UK, and provide further investor certainty as part of the contracts for difference framework which will apply in Northern Ireland.
Alongside other policy measures, this UK-wide decarbonisation target range could help us to meet our existing UK targets cost-effectively, and any targets set by the devolved Administrations, including Northern Ireland’s target of 40% of electricity consumption from renewable sources by 2020.
In brief, these amendments improve the Bill by ensuring that the provisions on decarbonisation extend to the whole of the UK in a manner consistent with the approach taken in the Climate Change Act. On this basis, I beg to move.
Lord Empey
My Lords, I welcome these amendments but want to ask the Minister about a couple of matters. I had responsibility for this area for three years. Long-standing availability contracts signed many years ago constrain the flexibility of the Northern Ireland energy sector. That is one of the issues. We have set ourselves very challenging targets for renewable sources but still need, and will continue to need, large amounts of availability from more traditional generating sources. We have also been encouraging the development of interconnection with the Irish Republic. Not only will that be a positive thing from the point of view of reliability and reinforcement of supply, it will mean that the Irish Republic will have a proportionately larger renewable sector than we are likely to have in the foreseeable future.
There is one technical point on which I would like the Minister to advise the Committee, or perhaps write to us about at some stage, which has arisen in other areas where we have national issues but powers are devolved. Assuming that there will be a legislative consent Motion—which I sincerely hope there will be—there is the issue of the Sewel convention and the Government’s response to that. In recent correspondence with the NIO on other issues, there seems to be a tremendous adherence to it. That effectively means that this Parliament does not wish to overrule or supersede a devolved Administration. It would apply equally to Scotland. We need to bear in mind how that particular issue will be dealt with if we sign up to international obligations, which we may very well do, as we have provisions in the Northern Ireland Act 1988 which mean that Northern Ireland must comply with the international obligations of the United Kingdom. However, if it is not covered by an international obligation, the Secretary of State here may set targets which he or she believes are appropriate for the UK as a whole.
Given that electricity supplies are provided through the private sector, and that there are availability contracts, I want to be assured that the Government will not allow themselves to be hampered by a very narrow implementation of the Sewel convention. We have to have flexibility. This is a hugely important area for our activities. Given that the electricity market in both Scotland and Northern Ireland is comparatively small, one can easily see why people ignore it. However, everybody has to do their bit and we all have to make a contribution. Perhaps the Minister could offer those assurances in her winding up or could write to us at a later stage. I believe that these amendments are positive and I fully support them.
Lord Whitty
My Lords, from these Benches, I, too, support the amendments and much of what the noble Lord, Lord Empey, has said. However, I have some serious queries. I have an amendment in this group—I will not press it because I think it is superseded by the Minister’s amendments—as it seemed to me that the requirement to consult Northern Ireland Ministers was not sufficiently reflected throughout the Bill.
I had better declare a past interest, in that last year I wrote a report on the Northern Ireland energy sector for the Consumer Council over there. It was a very good report and I recommend it to everyone—unfortunately the successor to the noble Lord, Lord Empey, did not entirely agree with it, but there we go. In the course of that, I saw that there were some very different features in the energy situation in Northern Ireland compared to over here. I therefore wonder whether the position is quite as simple as this amendment indicates. It is right that the decarbonisation target should apply to the UK—if the Northern Ireland Ministers and Executive are happy with it, Northern Ireland’s contribution to that can clearly be worked out. At present, as the noble Lord, Lord Empey, said, there is a very ambitious target for renewables in Northern Ireland—40% by 2020, which is far in advance of what we are likely to achieve in GB. On the other hand, there is still oil-fired generating capacity in Northern Ireland, at least partially, so it is a different situation. It is also a very different situation at the consumer end, which is presumably why the consumer regulations in here do not apply to Northern Ireland. Therefore, in relation to Part 1, I am fully in favour of adopting this amendment.
However, I am not entirely clear how the extent provisions in Clause 140, to which the Minister has referred, as regards particularly Part 2, and Part 3, will cover Northern Ireland. Because there is a different structure of electricity supply, it is difficult to see a clear read-across for the contracts for difference, or for that matter the investment contract provisions, with the situation in Northern Ireland. As the noble Lord, Lord Empey, and the Minister have said, there is a wholesale, all-Ireland electricity market for a start, which complicates issues. In relation to the capacity mechanism, it is also true that availability contracts are still outstanding and have been running for years in Northern Ireland and the Republic. In my judgment, consumers in Northern Ireland have probably paid too much for that capacity over the years and are continuing to do so.
It is difficult to see how the contracts for difference mechanism will apply there if we have an all-Ireland market and capacity which is differentially based in terms of existing capacity and ability to roll on existing capacity. Obviously, future new capacity would be available on an all-Ireland basis. Therefore, I find it difficult to understand quite how the mechanisms for contracts for difference would operate in Northern Ireland. I should be grateful if the Minister could get her officials, with the agreement of her Northern Ireland counterparts, to set out how she sees that working. For example, we are now talking about one counterparty but we have a different regulatory system in Ireland. I cannot really see how one counterparty can operate in the Northern Ireland context.
There are issues in relation to interconnection and contracts for difference can be for capacity which is not in GB. You could have wind farms in the Irish midlands or French nuclear power stations involved in the contracts for difference. But I do not think that that is what is meant in terms of using Part 2 to cover the Northern Ireland electricity market. I am not against trying to apply the same principles and I am very much in favour of the precise amendment which relates to the decarbonisation target. However, I feel that the totality of the position in Northern Ireland is much more complicated than simply writing in the Bill that Part 2 extends to Northern Ireland.
No doubt these things are still under discussion between London and Belfast. I suspect that quite a lot of details have to be sorted out and a number of legislative moves have to be made in the Assembly and here. But, given that this is early on in the debate and that we have the opportunity to register it, I register it now and will not repeat it as we go through the rest of the Bill. Perhaps the Minister and her officials could set this out clearly so that by the time we come to Report we understand the totality of the position.
Baroness Verma
My Lords, I shall write to the noble Lord on that and make the letter available to Members of the Committee.
Lord Empey
My Lords, if the Minister is not in a position to address today my point on the Sewel convention, can she write to us on that and on any issues which it might create with regard to the Bill?
Baroness Verma
My Lords, energy policy is transferred in relation to Northern Ireland. Therefore, it is right that we should seek the agreement of the Northern Ireland Executive before making these amendments. We have sought their agreement in order to fulfil our obligations under the Sewel convention. I hope that that satisfies the noble Lord, Lord Empey.
Lord Empey
My Lords, I understand what the Minister says, but we have had a case recently where the National Crime Agency has been refused permission effectively to function in Northern Ireland. Ministers have said to me in correspondence that, because of the Sewel convention, they would not intervene. There is a fundamental contradiction in amending the territorial extent of a piece of legislation and then saying, “Well, if people aren’t prepared to do it, we’re not going to do anything about it”. Perhaps we could come back to this on Report, because there is a contradiction there which needs to be resolved.
Baroness Verma
My Lords, I am quite happy to take away the noble Lord’s concerns and, I hope, respond to him in writing.
Energy: Wind Farms
Debate between Baroness Verma and Lord Empey
Baroness Verma
My Lords, my noble friend raises a number of very important points. The Government recognise that smart electric heating may in future provide a low-carbon solution to a range of energy challenges, including balancing the supply of electricity. DECC’s heat strategy team have had constructive discussions with utilities and manufacturers to discuss this potential further. The Government will publish a document on the strategic framework for heat in the coming months.
Lord Empey
My Lords, will the noble Baroness confirm that, because of the intermittent nature of wind power, there will be—there can be—no reduction in generating capacity from fossil fuel and nuclear sources? In this country cold weather, such as that we had two years ago, tends to be accompanied by high pressure, which means no wind. The intermittent nature of wind power will therefore not result in a reduction in fossil fuel or nuclear generation.
Baroness Verma
My Lords, that is why we look at onshore as being a part—a small part—of the renewable energy mix.