International Women’s Day: Progress on Global Gender Equality

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Lord Young of Norwood Green

Thursday 8th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, the theme of International Women’s Day this year is “Press for Progress” and I have been struck by the amazing examples of progress in many of the contributions today. Similarly, as many noble Lords have noted, there is more—much more—that needs to be done. The noble Baroness, Lady Northover, highlighted so many shocking and astonishing examples; I will have to have a word with my husband tonight about whether he would give me a kidney. My noble friend Lady Browning enthralled us with her contribution about culture and the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, has just expanded our understanding of economics. There is so much food for thought and I give my heartfelt thanks to all the contributors. There are far too many to mention.

The vote has been mentioned by many and it would be remiss of me if I missed it out. It is just 100 years—about four generations—since women, albeit not all women, were granted the right to vote. Since then, other courageous and inspirational women from all sides of politics have blazed the trail that has got us to where we are today. We have our second female Prime Minister and our third female Home Secretary, and almost a third of government posts are currently filled by women. There are so many more, as mentioned by my noble friend Lady Jenkin and the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton. Some of the campaigners of 100 years ago have their names written forever in history, including Emmeline Pankhurst, Millicent Fawcett and Emily Wilding Davison—and Princess Sophia Duleep Singh, who was mentioned by my noble friend Lord Suri. I know that she has been mentioned in your Lordships’ House before. A great many more have not achieved national recognition, or perhaps notoriety, and we may never know their names. They were just ordinary women doing their bit to challenge injustice.

It was 40 years after women gained the right to vote and to become MPs that they were able to sit as life Peers in your Lordships’ House. In 1958, just 60 years ago and within the living memory of some noble Lords, Baroness Swanborough became the first female Peer to take her seat. Since then, 294 female life Peers have been created and there are now 203 female life Peers in your Lordships’ House. That means that seven out of 10 such Peers ever created are still here. The noble Lord, Lord Loomba, talked about getting our own House in order—so I had a quick look. I have been in your Lordships’ House for 18 months and made my debut at the Dispatch Box in this debate exactly a year ago. Of the 14 political appointments 18 months ago, of which I was one, eight of us were women—more than half. So the former Prime Minister, my right honourable friend David Cameron, was a man of deeds and not words when it came to women’s representation.

This is the most diverse Parliament in British history, with the highest number of women MPs ever. Women make up 32% of all MPs, up from 22% in 2010. But compare that to countries as diverse as Senegal, where 41.8% of MPs are women, and Norway, which has 41.4%. We must and can do better. We must use the examples of all courageous and inspirational women to galvanise women and girls, including those from the BAME communities, as mentioned by the noble Baronesses, Lady Hussein-Ece and Lady Uddin, and my noble friend Lady Manzoor, to use their voices and have a say over what our future looks like.

Since 2010 the Government have been making a real difference to “Press for Progress” for women. There are 1.48 million more women in employment than in May 2010 and the employment rate remains at a joint record high of 70.8%. What is more, the full-time gender pay gap, as mentioned by many noble Lords, including the noble Baroness, Lady Burt, has fallen to a record low of 9.1%, while the overall gender pay gap has fallen from 27.5%, in 1997 to 18.4%. Our ground-breaking gender pay gap reporting legislation, as mentioned by the noble Baroness, Lady Donaghy, and the noble Lord, Lord Young of Norwood Green, will encourage employers to take responsibility and take positive steps to close the gap even further.

The deadline is approaching and I am sure that all noble Lords are very excited by this. I can share with noble Lords that many times more companies have registered than have already submitted their data. So time will tell; I remain positive. Companies leave things to the last minute, as we know. So let us keep an eye on that and see how we do.

We are championing female representation at all levels—an issue that was mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Brooke. Through the Hampton-Alexander Review and the Women’s Business Council, we are supporting business to get more women into senior leadership positions.

We recently launched the national campaign to promote and increase the uptake of shared parental leave, and 97% of all UK workplaces now offer some form of flexible working. The noble Baroness, Lady Burt, mentioned childcare. As a mother I agree with the noble Baroness that it is one of the biggest challenges that any family faces when they are deciding how to structure their family going forward. We have doubled free childcare for working parents of three and four-year olds and we have introduced tax-free childcare to help working families.

We have had a wide-ranging debate today. The noble Lord, Lord Pendry, gave us a stunning tour-de-force on the world of women in sport. He paid tribute to my honourable friend Tracey Crouch in the other place in her role as Minister for Sport, and I would completely agree with him. He talked about Sport England and the This Girl Can campaign. This girl can, too—but only very occasionally because I am usually too busy. In terms of This Girl Can, over 11,000 organisations have registered, which is a great step forward. I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Pendry, will agree with the noble Lord, Lord Addington, and indeed with me, that we now have some more superstar sporting heroes and role models who have come out of the Winter Olympics, including of course Lizzie Yarnold and Elise Christie for the way she faced up to the challenges that she had. The noble Lord, Lord Addington, also spoke about the benefits of sport and the action being taken. I note his question on coaches. If he will forgive me, I will write to him further on that when I have the full facts at my fingertips.

My noble friend Lady Manzoor spoke very movingly about a crime of the past that is still a crime of the present: sexual abuse, rape and grooming. This was also mentioned by my noble friend Lady Wyld. Large-scale sexual abuse and grooming in our cities must be tackled. Indeed, it must be stopped. The noble Baroness, Lady Gale, spoke about sexual harassment in schools. The Government are taking concrete action. We are working to make relationship and sex education mandatory in secondary schools and relationship education mandatory in primary schools. The DfE, too, is busy improving the guidance available to schools. It will be publishing specific guidance on child-on-child sexual harassment and violence, revising bullying guidance, and consulting on proposals to strengthen the safeguarding guidance Keeping Children Safe in Education. Those changes should come into effect in September 2018—so the Government are not hanging around. The DfE is ensuring that all expert views are reflected, including through an expert advisory group, as mentioned by the noble Baroness, and wide consultation on both the content of the sex education programme and also Keeping Children Safe in Education.



The noble Baroness, Lady Gale, also spoke about the domestic abuse consultation launched by Her Majesty’s Government today, and mentioned why she thought that the Bill was solely focused on criminal justice and a criminal justice approach. The Government are committed to doing everything they can to end domestic violence, and the consultation seeks views from all sides. From legislative and non-legislative action, we need to look at the different things that the Government can be doing to tackle this devastating abuse.

The consultation and the proposals for the domestic abuse Bill are all about intervening early so that we can get people the support that they need. We have made clear in the consultation document our commitment to review funding for safe accommodation, including refuges. This is why we are conducting the most thorough review of domestic abuse services that we have ever undertaken—to make sure that we get this absolutely right.

The noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, mentioned mental health. This is an area that is very close to my heart as I have worked in mental health provision in the past. The Government are committed to achieving parity of esteem for mental health. I am proud of our achievements. We have invested more than ever before in mental health, with spending estimated to have increased to £11.6 billion. There is additional investment to improve services for eating disorders, which, as we know, disproportionately affect women, and we have introduced the first waiting time standards for mental health.

The noble Baroness, Lady Gale, and the noble Lord, Lord Young of Norwood Green, raised the issue of apprenticeships. We are using the employer Apprenticeship Diversity Champions Network to champion gender representation in industries where improvement is needed. The recently published careers strategy includes a commitment to ensuring that STEM encounters—I think that just means meetings with people from STEM organisations—such as employers and apprenticeships—yes, there we go—are built into the school careers programme by updating the statutory guidance.

The noble Baroness, Lady Gale, mentioned encouraging women into STEM and engineering; as a former engineer myself, I think that is a great thing. This is the Year of Engineering, and we have invested in many programmes to encourage the take-up of STEM-related subjects and courses. We announced substantial spending commitments in the 2017 Autumn Budget on maths, digital and, of course, technical education and the T-levels, which I think will be very important.

The noble Baroness, Lady Hussein-Ece, mentioned BAME women and the particular challenges that they can face. We are committed to addressing these issues. In October 2017, the Government published the Race Disparity Audit showing how people of different ethnicities are treated across public services, and we have begun a programme of work to tackle some of the disparities with targeted action in employment, education and the criminal justice system.

The noble Baroness, Lady Healy, mentioned women in detention at Yarl’s Wood. We are committed to treating women who seek protection with dignity and respect. We take our responsibilities towards detainees’ health and welfare seriously. We have worked closely with partners including Asylum Aid, the Refugee Council and UNHCR on a range of initiatives to ensure that gender sensitivity is embedded in the asylum process.

On the last area that I would like to mention in relation to domestic matters, the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, spoke about the reform of the Gender Recognition Act; I have heard her mention this in the past and I encourage her to keep going. The Government have already begun engaging with a wide range of people and organisations, including LGBT groups and women’s groups. I would like to reassure her that we are standing firm and will bring forward the consultation shortly.

However, it is not just at home where we are pressing for progress. The UK is an international leader on gender equality. We have brought critical issues such as sexual and reproductive health and rights, female genital mutilation and child and early forced marriage to the world stage. The noble Lord, Lord Loomba, called some of these practices uncivilised and barbaric, and I would agree with him. The noble Baronesses, Lady Northover and Lady Tonge, graciously mentioned the good work done by DfID over many years, and indeed many of these issues were raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Tonge, in her contribution.

We have been able to leverage ground-breaking international partnerships and commitments. A good example of this is our instrumental role in securing the inclusion of global goal 5 on gender equality and ensuring that gender equality is mainstreamed across all the other goals. Since 2014, the Department for International Development has had pioneering legislation in place requiring the Government to consider gender equality in all our development and our humanitarian aid. Our leadership puts us at the forefront of global efforts to demand rights for women and girls, and is the key feature of global Britain.

Key to this is that we work across government to achieve the best development, diplomatic, defence and trade approaches to achieve the maximum impact for women and girls. I hope the noble Lord, Lord Loomba, will feel reassured that there is indeed cross-departmental action. A good example of this is our cross-departmental government strategy on ending violence against women and girls. I pay tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Loomba, for his work in this area, particularly in highlighting the plight of widows and the Spotlight Initiative.

In January, the Government launched our new UK National Action Plan on Women, Peace & Security, which has nine focus countries, many of which we have discussed in the Chamber today. They include Afghanistan, the DRC, South Sudan and Syria. It puts women and girls at the heart of our cross-government work to prevent and resolve conflict and focuses on diplomacy, development and peace. As my noble friend Lady Hodgson noted, we absolutely know that in peace processes where women are able to exert a strong influence, it is much more likely that an agreement will be reached and implemented and peace is 35% more likely to last for 15 years. This is why the UK has provided around $2 million to the Women’s Peace and Humanitarian Fund, to enhance the capacity of local women to prevent conflict, respond to crises and emergencies and seize key peacebuilding opportunities. We work across government to deliver strong gender-equality messages and secure progressive languages, for example, through the G7 and the G20.

Education was mentioned by many noble Lords as a priority. Between 2015 and 2017, DfID supported 7.1 million children to get an education. That included 3.3 million girls. In April, we will collectively strive for a commitment at the Commonwealth Heads of Government Meeting to 12 years of quality education for all girls across the Commonwealth.

The noble Baroness, Lady Barker, mentioned LGBT issues and the Commonwealth. My right honourable friend the Prime Minister has spoken about the UK’s special responsibility to help change hearts and minds, and is committed to ensuring that LGBT issues are discussed at the Commonwealth summit. I heard what the noble Baroness said about the evidence being gathered of the costs of discrimination, and look forward to seeing that when it is available.

My noble friend Lady Hodgson mentioned a variety of issues, including the prevention of sexual violence in conflict, an initiative set up in 2012. The UK has committed more than £40 million to this initiative since it was founded. We have supported 23 projects in 14 countries in this year alone, and more than 17,000 police and military personnel have been trained. She will be very pleased to hear that the UK plans to host another PSVI summit to continue with the momentum that we have, and it will take place in 2019.

My noble friend Lady Hodgson and a number of others mentioned CEDAW. The UK strongly supports CEDAW and believes that it is an effective treaty-monitoring body. It is one of the best mechanisms to promote women’s rights around the world. The Government engage with CEDAW and submitted their eighth periodic report to the UN CEDAW committee in 2017, which highlighted the UK’s record on gender equality. A range of factors are considered before making a decision about UK representation on bodies such as CEDAW, and sometimes this means making difficult decisions about which bodies to seek election for. The Government are carefully considering whether to nominate a candidate for the 2020 election.

I turn to the comments made by my noble friend Lord Suri. I thank him for his ideas and thoughts on the activities of NGOs overseas, particularly on potential unwelcome behaviour by certain members of staff. On 12 February, the DfID Secretary of State wrote to all UK charities that directly receive UK aid, asking them to provide full assurances that they have sufficient safeguarding measures in place. Based on these returns, DfID has made 26 serious incident reports to the Charity Commission. At the safeguarding summit on 5 March, the Secretary of State put in place new, enhanced and specific safeguarding standards for all organisations that are recipients of UK aid.

I pay tribute to my noble friend Lady Hooper for her work with the Inter-Parliamentary Union. It is very interesting to hear about women in local government. Often, we talk about women in national government and it is very heartening to hear that women are active in local government. Indeed, it is disappointing to hear that progress at a national level is slightly slowing. Obviously, we will continue to support that work.

I may just have time to address the comments made by the noble Baroness, Lady Tonge. I pay tribute to her tenacious campaigning in this area over the years—I know that she has done a lot of work on it. The UK firmly believes in supporting comprehensive sexual and reproductive health and rights of women and girls. On the issue of safe abortion, our position is absolutely clear. Research shows that restricting access to abortion does not make abortions less common, just less safe. The UK will continue to show global health leadership in this area.

We all know that there is still a way to go before we achieve gender equality in the UK—

[Lord Young of Norwood Green]

Before the Minister sits down—I was looking at the Clock—perhaps she could at least comment on Malala Yousafzai. I do not expect her to deal with the issue, but perhaps she could comment on it.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

It is a superb idea. I had her speak at a conference I organised in 2015—but that does not mean that I take responsibility for it. I encourage all noble Lords to support that idea.

We all know that there is a way to go, but we simply cannot afford to let anyone waste their talents because of missed opportunities or social barriers. In 1903, the mantra “Deeds not Words” was adopted by Emmeline Pankhurst, and I encourage all noble Lords to carry on the deeds they are doing. Together we must, and we can, create a fairer and more equal world where everyone has the same rights and the same opportunities, no matter their gender.

Technical and Further Education Bill

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Lord Young of Norwood Green

Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 27th March 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lords, Lord Young and Lord Watson, for tabling this group of amendments. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Young, in particular for his kind words relating to the intent of the Bill.

I turn first to consider Amendment 4. Ensuring that apprentices get the support they need to make the most of their apprenticeship and to progress into an engaging and rewarding career is essential. This amendment provides that the Secretary of State should bring forward proposals for the establishment of an apprenticeship helpline, managed by the Institute for Apprenticeships. Such an amendment is unnecessary as such a helpline already exists.

The National Apprenticeship Service operates a helpline that does two things: it provides advice to employers who wish to offer apprenticeships on all aspects of the scheme, including information on training providers, funding and recruitment; it also provides support to individuals who would like to apply for an apprenticeship and signposts them to vacancies on the GOV.UK site “Find an apprenticeship”. The helpline also provides help and support for apprentices and employers who have concerns or complaints. Teams within the National Apprenticeship Service investigate these where appropriate. If an apprentice raises concerns about employment law, the helpline refers them to ACAS if necessary. Advice on technical routes is currently offered by the National Careers Service. However, with the expansion of the remit of the Institute for Apprenticeships from April 2018, we will consider whether one service should be expanded to provide a one-stop shop for apprenticeships and technical routes.

I would now like to speak to Amendment 7. I welcome the sentiment behind the amendment: that small and medium-sized enterprises are encouraged and supported to employ apprentices and that these apprenticeships are of high quality. The noble Lord, Lord Young, is absolutely right that small and medium-sized employers are crucial to the success of our apprenticeship reform programme. After all, only 1.3% of employers will be paying the apprenticeship levy. To that end, the Department for Education is ensuring that smaller employers understand the benefits of apprenticeship training for their business, and that they take advantage of the support available, including the substantial contribution of 90% of the training and assessment costs for an apprenticeship.

To raise awareness and support smaller levy payers and non-levy payers, every local enterprise partnership has been given £5,000 to work on employer readiness for the levy and to support campaigns to raise the profile of apprenticeships. We are undertaking a wide range of communications and engagement activity to ensure that employers of all sizes are aware of how they can make the most of the opportunities presented by apprenticeships. The Get In Go Far campaign, for example, has focused specifically on helping small employers understand the benefits of apprenticeships.

However, on the noble Lord’s request that the institute has a specific role to monitor this, I believe that we have already established a remit for the institute which will ensure that apprenticeship standards and assessment plans are of high quality for apprentices employed in organisations of all sizes. The institute has been given a clearly defined role in which it will be responsible for: setting quality criteria for the development of apprenticeship standards and assessment plans; reviewing, approving or rejecting them; advising on the maximum level of government funding available for standards; and quality assuring some end-point assessments. While we expect the institute to engage with organisations such as local enterprise partnerships and local authorities, formally to monitor their performance would create an undue burden on the institute, preventing it from carrying out the range of its other duties effectively.

I hope I have provided sufficient reassurance that the Government recognise the importance of small and medium-sized employers and that the institute is already assuring the quality of all apprenticeship standards and plans, regardless of the size of employer.

I turn finally to Amendment 19 in this group. There is evidence that, in the past, some apprentices have not been clear on what their apprenticeship entitles them to and employers do not always understand their responsibilities towards their apprentices. Ensuring that all parties involved in an apprenticeship have a clear understanding of their roles and responsibilities is essential for it to be a success.

However, an amendment is not necessary to ensure this outcome. Section A5 of the Apprenticeships, Skills, Children and Learning Act 2009, which was inserted by the Deregulation Act 2015, provides that an apprenticeship agreement is an employment contract. It follows that all the safeguards which apply to employment contracts also apply to apprenticeship agreements. In addition, since the introduction of apprenticeship standards, we have required that apprenticeship commitment statements be signed by the apprentice, the employer and the provider at the outset of the apprenticeship. If the apprentice is under 18, it should be signed by a parent or guardian. This is required through the Skills Funding Agency funding rules.

The apprenticeship commitment statement sets out details of the apprenticeship and covers three areas: the name of the standard the apprentice is following and the start and end dates; the training that will be undertaken by the apprentice and who will deliver it; and the roles and responsibilities of the parties involved. For example, for the apprentice this might include a clear articulation of when they should attend work and when they should attend training, as well as appropriate behaviours in the workplace—although I am not sure that it will mention the laundry basket. For the employer, it might include how they will ensure successful delivery of the apprentice and preparation of the apprentice for their end-point assessment, and for the provider it might include clearly setting out the advice and support they can offer both the employer and the apprentice. The statement should also include details of how the parties will work together and how issues will be resolved. This is in addition to the employment law requirements on employers to set out the particulars of employment. Turning to the point—

[Lord Young of Norwood Green]

I welcome a lot of what the Minister has been saying, but is that formal signing process taking place now in all cases, or is the noble Baroness advising us that it will be a requirement from whenever? Can she clarify that?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

Unfortunately, I am unable to clarify that at the moment, but I will write to the noble Lord. I will also unfortunately have to write to the noble Lord, Lord Watson, on his point about the Consumer Rights Act.

As a requirement of the Skills Funding Agency funding rules, the training provider must ensure that a commitment statement and the apprenticeship agreement are in place before funding is released, which implies that these things are happening—otherwise, funding would not be released—but I will confirm that. This is monitored by the SFA, and duplication by the institute is therefore not necessary. I hope that noble Lords will feel reassured enough on the basis of my explanation not to press these amendments.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

Again, I am unable to confirm that, but I will write to my noble friend. If not, I think perhaps it should.

[Lord Young of Norwood Green]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for her comments. A number of them seem extremely helpful. I am appreciative of the fact that she will consider the one-stop-shop approach.

I may be wrong and only time will tell, and I do not accuse the Minister of complacency because I do not believe that that is the case, but I think that the Government are erring on the side of optimism in relation to small and medium-sized employers. The feedback I am getting—and I am sure I am not the only one—suggests that, while employers welcome the training costs being met, along with some other contributions, it may be that they have underestimated the position of employers who are saying, “I have a business to run and I am having enough trouble keeping it going. Now you are asking me to take on the responsibility of an apprentice”. In many cases, small employers do not have any experience of dealing with the administrative side. They may exaggerate its complexity, but nevertheless they see it as a burden and a disincentive. They say, “I still have the wage costs, which are not insignificant, and for at least the first six months and up to a year I do not necessarily have a fully productive employee”. In these dialogues I always say, “The point you are making is interesting, but when a business takes on an apprentice and the arrangement is working well, I am told that the young person is making a positive contribution”. A fresh pair of young eyes is able to suggest to the business how to make a significant number of improvements, not least in areas like IT where the young person is often more knowledgeable than the employer.

I would urge the Minister to look at the situation again. There is still uncertainty about how the levy is going to operate and how it will filter through to small and medium-sized employers. On its own, I do not think that meeting 90% of the training costs is going to achieve what is needed. The Government should not take my word for it. They should talk to chambers of commerce and the Federation of Small Businesses. I think that they will be given the kind of feedback that I have set out today.

Obviously, I welcome what has been said about the contract of employment. While there are a couple of points on which the Minister will come back to us, overall it is good. I do not know whether the response has covered the point I was trying to convey—perhaps I did not set it out well enough. I referred to trying to ensure that the formal signing of the apprenticeship contract is marked as an occasion, because it should be. I look forward to the day when I can go into a secondary school and see on the wall not only the names of those who have gone on to Oxford, Cambridge and other institutions of higher learning, but also a board showing the young people who have achieved apprenticeships. Surely that is just as important and, in my view, as life changing a proposition for young people as going to university.

Overall, I welcome some of the information we have been given because it is positive and useful. I have indicated the areas that I think the Government should revisit and I thank my noble friends who have contributed to the debate. My noble friend Lord Watson made a point about consumer rights and I welcome the support of the noble Lord, Lord Lucas. Obviously, I anxiously await the replies to the issues we have raised, but at this point I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

My Lords, I welcome the opportunity to debate the amendments in this group. I thank all noble Lords for their contributions.

I fully understand why the noble Baroness and the noble Lord have tabled Amendment 6, which seeks to define technical education qualifications as,

“the full range of work-based qualifications”.

I reassure them that all relevant and appropriate occupations in the economy will be covered within the technical education routes. What is important is that there is good provision for everyone and that the reformed technical education system focuses on occupations for which skilled technical training is a requirement.

The Sainsbury panel report has already provided a clear definition:

“Technical education must require the acquisition of both a substantial body of technical knowledge and a set of practical skills valued by industry”.


Trying to define these qualifications in this manner could restrict the scope of technical education qualifications, both now and in the future. In practice, technical education qualifications will be defined by the coverage of the 15 technical education routes. Each route will provide a framework for grouping together occupations where there are shared training requirements. An occupational map will identify all the occupations within the scope of each route.

When defining the coverage of the 15 technical education routes, it is important to highlight that not all occupations will be included. The Sainsbury panel was clear that unskilled and low-skilled occupations that do not have sufficient knowledge requirements would not warrant a technical education route. Rather, these occupations can be learned entirely on the job, often within a matter of weeks. For these occupations, it would not be appropriate to offer technical education qualifications.

I reassure the noble Baroness and the noble Lord that within the technical education routes there will be comprehensive coverage of the skilled occupations that are vital to the success—

[Lord Young of Norwood Green]

I would like some clarification. The Minister said that the Sainsbury panel identified low-skilled or unskilled occupations that could be learned in a matter of weeks. We are talking about apprenticeships. The Government have already said that the minimum period for an apprenticeship is one year. That covers a very wide range of occupations. I would not necessarily call them unskilled or even low-skilled. Whether it is retail or anything else that is sometimes referred to in this manner, I do not think that is fair, especially if we are talking about an apprenticeship. We have said, I believe, that 20% of an apprenticeship should be off-the-job training. Which are the groups that do not require any technical qualifications whatever?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

I thank the noble Lord for his intervention. I think it is unhelpful to try to put things into the brackets of “low-skilled”, “high-skilled” and “medium-skilled”, particularly based on what we experienced when we were much younger, and to try to connect them with apprenticeships. We are talking about technical education qualifications specifically, which may not be related to an apprenticeship. Occupations at the higher skill level will have technical education qualifications. Other occupations, while equally valid, will not.

Within the technical education routes there will be comprehensive coverage of skilled occupations. However, it is important to be clear that as well as meeting the technical education requirements set out in the Sainsbury panel, there must be labour market evidence to demonstrate employer need and a genuine skills gap. We will review this regularly and will continue to listen to any evidence from employers.

I am grateful to the noble Baroness and noble Lords for tabling Amendment 28 and for providing an opportunity to debate this issue. I hope that my explanation will put their minds at rest. The Ofqual register of regulated qualifications is a public-facing database listing the many qualifications that Ofqual regulates, including A-levels, GCSEs and functional skills. It is used as an indexing tool and includes information that helps employers, students and others understand the relative size and challenge of qualifications.

As noble Lords will be aware, new Section A2HA proposes that the institute will maintain a list of approved high-quality technical education qualifications based on the knowledge, skills and behaviours that employers have identified as requirements for particular occupations. When approving qualifications, the institute will need to ensure that the qualifications are at a level appropriate for the associated occupation or group of occupations. Qualifications will need to contain stretch and challenge that is commensurate with their ascribed level. They will need to be of an agreed size that reflects the amount of time involved in teaching and assessing them. This information will be clearly indicated in the list of qualifications maintained and published by the institute.

Once the institute has approved a new qualification, we will consider future funding for current similar qualifications on a case-by-case basis. We will not withdraw funding for students who are part-way through their course. Ofqual’s register of regulated qualifications and the institute’s register are both important parts of the system, but they have different purposes. If the institute’s register were to replace the Ofqual register, this would remove public information and a frame of reference for thousands of qualifications that would be outside the remit of the institute and which would have already been taken by students, including GCSEs and A-levels.

My noble friend Lord Lucas made a point about the suggestion from the noble Baroness, Lady Cohen, about “professional”. We have given this some consideration, and at the moment there is no consensus on an alternative to “technical education”. We have had a conversation today about technical education versus the entire gamut of qualifications or tests that you might take to work, which was mentioned by the noble Baroness, Lady Wolf. It is important that technical education retains a certain status within the minds of learner and employer.

There is a public need to maintain both registers. I hope that my explanation has reassured the noble Baroness to the extent that she is prepared to withdraw the amendment.