HMRC: Tax Returns

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Lord Cormack

Wednesday 10th January 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

Without further information about that case, it would obviously be very difficult for me to comment. If the noble and learned Baroness would like me to pass her friend’s information to HMRC, I would be very happy to do so.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, when my noble friend telephoned, as she said in answer to my noble friend Lord Forsyth, how long did she have to wait before she had a proper answer?

Destitution: Low Median Wage

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Lord Cormack

Thursday 23rd November 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

It is the case that of course those are assessments made by people far cleverer than me, within the OBR and the Treasury, but that is the analysis. Of course, people will be able to choose whether they work longer hours, but the simple point is that if somebody does work longer hours, they get more pounds in their pocket, so it is not beyond the wit of man to understand that they might want to do more hours.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, as we advance into winter, will everything possible be done to assist those charities who are doing everything they can to get people off the streets and into proper accommodation? Can my noble friend give the House an absolute assurance that those who provide tents will not be fined for doing so?

Railway Stations: Ticket Office Closures

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Lord Cormack

Wednesday 20th September 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The important thing to understand here is that this is a genuine consultation. The people who have received all the responses to the consultation are independent—they are independent passenger bodies, including Transport Focus and London TravelWatch. They will look at the responses that they get and the proposals put to them by the TOCs. They will listen to concerns and refine the proposals with the TOCs to ensure that appropriate service levels are being offered.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, will the figures be published? Does my noble friend the Minister not realise that many of us get the feeling that it has been decided that this is what we want when many of us do not?

E-bikes

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Lord Cormack

Tuesday 11th July 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I absolutely agree with the noble Lord, but of course these are operational matters for the police. The police are operationally independent. However, they respond to pressure from local communities and the police and crime commissioner; therefore, I encourage those people to ensure that the police are doing what I am sure many would want in their local areas.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, I am totally in awe of my noble friend Lord Hailsham and believe he should be allowed to use an e-bike, as he does in Peckham. Does my noble friend agree that e-scooters are a different thing entirely? They overtake taxis, their riders never have helmets, they have no registration numbers—they are an absolute menace. Can the wretched things be got rid of, as they have been in Paris?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

This Government are not a great fan of banning things, but we do need to think very carefully about e-scooters on our roads. As my noble friend will know, it is illegal to ride a private e-scooter on a public road—it has always been, and it remains, illegal. When parliamentary time allows, we will bring in legislation for micromobility which will cover private e-scooters, but it will also provide a licensing framework for the rental micromobility operations which are currently in trial across the country.

Low Traffic Neighbourhoods

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Lord Cormack

Monday 3rd July 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The scrappage scheme in London is of course under the remit of the Mayor of London, and the Government have no recourse to have any influence over it.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, raised an important point. Would it not be sensible for the Government to have some conversations with these local authorities? Oxford, with a bereft high street, is not the Oxford most of us know and love, and it is important that we get this thing in perspective. The Government surely have an overall duty here.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, one-way streets, traffic calming and pedestrianisation have been used for decades. In some circumstances, they have been put in and are not working, and in those cases it is for the local authority to be held accountable by the local electorate. The Government do, however, provide various bits of guidance, both statutory and non-statutory, to assist local authorities to come to the right decisions.

Driving Licences

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Lord Cormack

Monday 5th June 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am certainly not going to confirm that, because, as I have said, I have worked closely with DVSA to ensure that we limit that as far as possible. Indeed, I do not believe that the reselling of tests is a huge problem. Again, working with DVSA, we have created over 900,000 more slots—37,000 per month—to try to get as many people through as possible. As I have said, if people are better prepared, they will pass first time and will not need a secondary test.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

Would my noble friend accept that road safety does not depend just upon drivers? Would she consider recommending to the Government, following the example of Paris, a ban on these wretched electric scooters?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I agree with my noble friend that road safety does not only require the safety of drivers. Indeed, that is why the Government adopt the safe system approach, which looks at drivers, vehicles on the road and the road itself. The Government are, of course, looking at e-scooter safety. We are analysing the evidence and will come forward with further proposals soon.

Railways: Trans-Pennine Express

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Lord Cormack

Tuesday 23rd May 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am not wholly sure where the noble Lord gets that evidence from. Certainly, if he goes back to look at the period before industrial action really took hold, he will see that many of the train operating companies were working exactly to contract and better, and therefore getting performance fees. I want to point out as well—I think it is important—that while I absolutely note that some noble Lords will have had trouble travelling recently, those noble Lords who have not, such as me, will not say that they actually had a very good service. But I have had a fantastic service on LNER, on South Western Railway and on Avanti.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

Following what my noble friend has just said, could I just put in a good word for LNER, and encourage noble Lords in all parts of the House to come and explore the glories of Lincoln? They will almost certainly get there on time, and get back on time, unless there is a strike.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My noble friend has hit the nail on the head. It is likely that any noble Lord will get there and get back on time, unless there is a strike.

Global Britain: Traffic

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Lord Cormack

Monday 15th May 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

That is slightly beyond the scope of the Question. Obviously, the Government are committed to the integrated rail plan for the north, and the noble Lord will know that we are investing £5.7 billion under the CRSTS for sustainable transport schemes in many of our major cities.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

Is my noble friend aware that many of us look back with fond nostalgia to the days when London had one mayor living in the Mansion House? Would not it be a very good idea if we looked again at the whole idea of giving so much power to such an incompetent man and instead had a proper London authority? Bring back the old days!

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, sometimes it is impossible to go back to the old days, and this Government have no ambition to withdraw from the devolution settlements that are in place.

Vehicles: Headlamp Glare

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Lord Cormack

Tuesday 9th May 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

Actually, what the Government are doing to support the car manufacturing industry is working in lockstep with our colleagues internationally. As the noble Baroness will know, many of the regulations around type approval for cars come from this international community—about 75%. The extent to which we are able to work with our friends and neighbours in other countries on road safety issues means that this provides the level playing field that the UK automotive manufacturing sector needs.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

Does my noble friend agree that one of the curses of the age is light pollution? It is very difficult to go anywhere and enjoy natural evening light. While I accept the importance of safety features on vehicles, can the Government also do something to encourage developing more areas which are not polluted by light?

Aviation: Cost of Travel

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Lord Cormack

Wednesday 7th December 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

Ah, yes, the sorry saga of the Scottish ferries—I am very pleased that that is not in my inbox for the time being. It is the case that the public service obligations operate between the Scottish islands. They are supported, so those fares are subsidised. But the point here is that it is not up to this Government to take taxpayers’ money gathered from teachers and policemen and all sorts of people to subsidise air fares where there is a competitive market. The Government simply are not going to do that. What we will allow is for new operators to come into the market, which is what we are trying to encourage, to make the market as competitive as possible.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, it certainly is the Government’s obligation to think carefully about the question asked by my noble friend Lord Deben. It is appalling that we are not encouraging people in every possible way, when we get over this series of terrible strikes, to use the railways between Scotland and England rather than to fly. There is a far better option.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The Government believe in choice. While we absolutely want to resolve the rail strikes as soon as possible, because they will be turning people away from the railways, which is absolutely not what we want to see, when it comes to flying we believe that it is the case that we can decarbonise aviation. That is what we set out in our Jet Zero Strategy, and that is the plan that we are going to follow.

Rail Cancellations and Service Levels

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Lord Cormack

Thursday 1st December 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

Perhaps the noble Lord will allow me to finish. Officials meet Avanti weekly. A recovery plan has been agreed with Ministers and with the ORR, and we are monitoring whether or not Avanti is meeting that recovery plan—currently it is—and 100 new drivers have entered into service between April and December. I reiterate to the noble Lord, as I believe I have done previously, that removing the franchise from an operator would not make the service any better, because not even the Government can rustle up train drivers out of nowhere.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, the word “nationwide” occurs in the Question. I have every possible sympathy with the noble Lord, Lord Snape, and others, but there are those who use the east coast main line, and various strikes are threatened. Is my noble friend at all confident that the strikes between now and Christmas, which could prevent my coming here or going back from here, will take place, and what is being done to try to ensure that they do not?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I recognise that industrial action is planned between now and Christmas. The Government are doing whatever they can to act as a facilitator and a convenor. The position remains that negotiations need to happen between the train operating companies and the unions. However, we know that strikes make matters worse for the union members, passengers, the railway and, indeed, the economy. My fear is that as the strikes continue, we risk driving passengers away and entering into a cycle of decline in our railways that we do not want to see. Therefore the Government are very focused on trying to get to a stage where we no longer have the strikes. That depends on having modernising reforms, which are needed such that we can then afford a fair agreement with workers.

P&O Ferries

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Lord Cormack

Tuesday 29th March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I too noticed that a letter from Mr Hebblethwaite had been published on Twitter earlier today. Unfortunately, I do not have an update following that letter. Obviously, we are considering his response and will have an update in due course, while of course working speedily on a package of measures. We note the response from Mr Hebblethwaite; we have views on that.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

What are we going to do to put Mr Hebblethwaite on the spot and make sure that the 800 people who have been shamefully and appallingly treated get some recompense? What about the remark that he made about compensation? Has he explained what he means by that?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

We are aware that Mr Hebblethwaite has made a number of remarks recently. We are trying to get to the bottom of them. We are also trying to get to the bottom of the explanations by P&O Ferries for some of the actions that it has taken recently. We are looking at them to establish whether they are legal. We are also aware of some suggestions that there have been breaches of the national minimum wage. Therefore, the Business Secretary has asked the Employment Agency Standards Inspectorate to investigate that. Of course, the Maritime and Coastguard Agency is inspecting every single ship that is due to sail on these routes. To date, two have failed their inspections and therefore further work is required.

Railway Timetables: Disruption

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Lord Cormack

Thursday 13th January 2022 Lords Chamber

[A noble Lord]

They cannot get to work.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, can the Minister say—she did not really answer the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, fully on this—when we can expect to have a reasonably certain timetable? Those who travel by train regularly need to be able to plan carefully, and many of us feel that, although Covid has been a reason for much, it has been an excuse for many things as well.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I completely accept my noble friend’s point. It is the case that we want all passengers to be able to travel with confidence. At the moment, we are advising passengers to check first, but that is why the process that we put in place because of the Omicron intervention was two-phased. There was a reactive phase over Christmas, which necessitated some short-term cancellations. We knew that employee absences would possibly rise, so that is why we were proactive and put in place this planned timetable just for six to eight weeks until 26 February. That will provide some certainty until then. Then, of course, I would have to ask my noble friend to look at the timetable again.

Hitachi Rail: Rail Travel Disruption

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Lord Cormack

Wednesday 19th May 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I absolutely agree with the noble Lord. GWR is operating an amended timetable, and passengers need certainty nowadays, so that they can plan when to travel. GWR has every confidence that its amended timetable will run. Of its 93 class 800 trains, only 21 remain out of service. I therefore encourage passengers to travel and travel safety.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, I entirely endorse what my noble friend just said about certainty. I am delighted to report that I had a good and punctual journey from Newark on Monday this week, but it is important to reinstate the service from Lincoln as comprehensively as possible. Most important is that, having got a timetable, we stick to it. Could my noble friend use her best endeavours in that regard?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am greatly relieved that my noble friend had a reasonable journey to London this week; I do not think I could have coped with another bad journey. I reassure him that LNER’s timetable will be in place until 7 June. As I am sure the noble Lord knows, this is to take into account the east coast upgrade works at King’s Cross.

Rail Disruption: Social and Economic Impacts

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Lord Cormack

Thursday 13th May 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I wish I could reassure the noble Lord that the 7.30 will operate, but I am sure that the train operating companies are watching and will make sure that it does. I can reassure him that we always engage with our counterparts in the devolved Administrations in these circumstances. Priority has been given to resolving this at an operational level; it has been at an operational level that we have been collaborating. It is interesting to note that this issue has emerged also on the ScotRail class 385 fleet, with 10 out of the 70 units there experiencing a similar problem, but, thankfully, there has been no impact on services in Scotland.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, while safety is of course paramount, I have twice this week had to take a car from Lincoln to London and I shall return by car today. What we need is some degree of certainty. Can we please have for next week a programme of cancellations and running trains given at the beginning of the week?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

It is in the train operating companies’ interest to provide as much certainty as possible. I know that they are working incredibly hard on contingency planning such that, as we move to the new timetable—which also comes in next week—we will be able to offer as many services as possible. I am aware that the services from Lincoln have been particularly hit; I believe that it is now possible to get to Peterborough and then to change there, but I hope that the noble Lord’s services are back running as soon as possible.

Transport Infrastructure

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Lord Cormack

Tuesday 11th February 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, in the prologue, long before we got to the dappled trees, my noble friend referred to Lincoln. I am glad that she recognised the congestion outside that great city. Can I infer from that that Lincoln will be high in the order of priorities as our roads are improved?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

I thank my noble friend for his local question about Lincoln. I do not have statistics to hand about our roads investment in Lincoln. I am fairly sure there will be something, and I will write to him.

Transport: Buses

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Lord Cormack

Thursday 24th October 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, in relation to a point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, will my noble friend the Minister try to ensure that all new buses have details of concessionary fares on the side?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

I shall certainly take that very good point back to the department. It is also important to make sure that we make the most of the data that local operators have about their buses and collate it in one place, so that people can see information about where their bus is, and how much it will cost them, when they get on it.

Railways: Trans-Pennine Freight

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Lord Cormack

Monday 7th October 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

I thank the noble Lord for his question but, of course, it is not either/or; the two must be developed together. We often end up looking at a single mode for freight; what we must do is look at all the options, which will include road and, obviously, rail. But he brings up an important point. We will look very closely at cross-modal freight across the country in a strategy for the future starting this autumn.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, as we are moving around the country, I take this opportunity to thank my noble friend’s predecessor for the new services which begin a fortnight today: four trains a day between Lincoln and London and, from December, six trains a day. I also renew the invitation to her and her colleagues to pay a visit to Lincoln on one of these trains in the fairly near future.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

I thank my noble friend for his intervention. I was not aware that we were anywhere near Lincoln, but I am happy to discuss it. I am grateful for his words of thanks. These are just some examples of the extra services that the Government are putting back on the track. I will take noble Lords back up north: on the Northern and TransPennine Express franchises, we are delivering extra capacity of 40,000 passengers a week across 2,000 services.

Brexit: No-deal Ferry Contracts

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Lord Cormack

Wednesday 1st May 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

I am pleased to be able to tell the noble Lord that we have reached a settlement with the ferry companies, as I pointed out earlier, and that the termination fees are £43.8 million. It is clear that we have co-operated with the ferry companies, and we are grateful to them for the amount of mitigation that they have been able to do to reduce the amount of money that we have had to pay. We have had negotiations with them. We tried to sell as many tickets as possible to reduce the cost to the taxpayer and the ferry companies have cancelled sailings. We are grateful for their co-operation and believe that this is a fair settlement of the contract.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, if it is necessary, which I hope it is not, to take out further insurance policies of this nature, can we be absolutely sure that the ferry companies that we contract with will actually have some ferries?

Privatised Probation System

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Lord Cormack

Monday 4th March 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Dholakia, for his comments. The NAO report made a number of very long-standing criticisms, of which we were, of course, already aware. We have taken action to respond to those criticisms, many of which I hope to come to in other answers. The noble Lord asked specifically about reoffending. As I mentioned in my opening statement, it is a very complex and difficult issue to solve; certainly, we are approaching it from a cross-government perspective. The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster recently established the cross-government Reducing Reoffending Board, which brings together senior Ministers from all relevant departments to tackle the impact of reoffending on society as a whole. The core member of this group is the MoJ, but it also includes health, education—which is so important—the DWP, the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government and, of course, the Home Office. By working together we can reduce reoffending. Nobody would suggest that it is easy, but I believe that with a cross-government approach we will be able to do it.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, in both Houses and with Governments of both parties, I have consistently made the point that it is wrong for the state to opt out of crime and punishment. I believe that now even more strongly. Will my noble friend the Minister and her colleagues at least consider this alternative? None of us would advocate a private police force and I do not believe that any of us should advocate or support a private probation service or private prisons. That has been my consistent view throughout. I urge my noble friend to say that this matter will at least be reconsidered.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

I thank my noble friend Lord Cormack for his comments. He will be unsurprised to learn that I disagree with him. I do not see this as an opting-out of crime and punishment. Certainly, people in the private, third and voluntary sectors have lots of experience in this area. It is important for us to use that and work with them. However, at this moment we are looking at the responses to the consultation that closed on 21 September. We will look closely at what people have said and the way that this should be planned going forward. We will bring further plans to Parliament before the end of the year.

Honda in Swindon

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Lord Cormack

Tuesday 19th February 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

My Lords, the best way to encourage sales is to make sure that the cars represent value for money. One of the most difficult challenges in the electrification of cars is the battery, as I am sure all noble Lords know. That is why the Government committed £246 million to the Faraday battery challenge. This will make sure that the UK is at the forefront of developing and designing the batteries that we need for these cars. Eventually, the price of the car will come down as the batteries become more effective and their range improves. They will, therefore, become much more attractive to consumers as the cost per car falls.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, the Secretary of State has repeatedly and bravely made it plain that for this country to leave the European Union without a deal would be a disaster. Would my noble friend thank the Secretary of State for his steadfastness in proclaiming this and suggest that he has a quiet talk with those members of our party who support the ERG and whose wish is to crash out without a deal?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

I thank my noble friend for his comments. Nearly all noble Lords will agree that no deal would not be a good outcome for the automotive sector or the economy as a whole. The Government are working extremely hard to get a deal. In the meantime, we are doing what any responsible Government would do and putting in place the necessary legislation for no-deal exit.

Sexual Offences Legislation

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Lord Cormack

Monday 28th January 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, the dead cannot answer. There is still a question mark that has not been removed from the reputation of the great George Bell. Should it not be the absolute rule, and should not the Government give this immediate attention, that for any dead person accused there should be no publication of their name until there is really substantial evidence of guilt?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

I refer my noble friend to my answer to a previous question. Following the events of recent years, there has been a substantial and significant change to the College of Policing guidance. This now covers deceased persons too, and is published on the Authorised Professional Practice website, available for all practitioners to see. The previous Home Secretary asked the HMICFRS to do a short and targeted review of this issue in particular, to make sure that the release of people’s names prior to charge is done in only the right circumstances.

Inquiries Act 2005: Child Sexual Abuse

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Lord Cormack

Thursday 22nd November 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

I do not think there is a Member of your Lordships’ House who would disagree with that. It is fair to say that the IICSA inquiry under way at the moment has set up the Truth Project, under which it has so far been possible for 1,500 victims and sufferers to come forward to give their accounts of what has happened to them, and we expect that many more will join them.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

What is paramount, surely, is that justice should be honoured in all cases. Although I accept what my noble friend said about not interfering in inquiries already established, what is really behind the Question of the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, is the real concern throughout the country, and particularly in this House, about reputations that have been trashed without adequate evidence. I put it to my noble friend that it is therefore incumbent on the Government to have a separate inquiry into how those who have been accused of historical abuse and are now dead can have their reputations defended.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

My Lords, we have discussed this topic many times over recent months, and I entirely understand where my noble friend is coming from. Of course, we recognise and have every sympathy in circumstances where people have been unable to clear their name, but at the moment, there are no grounds to justify a further review.

Ivory Bill

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Lord Cormack

Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 24th October 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, these amendments seek to widen the scope of the Clause 2 exemptions, which provide for:

“Pre-1918 items of outstanding artistic … cultural or historical value”,


and which are rare and important examples of their type. Their effect would be to increase—in some cases quite significantly, as noted by my noble friend Lord Hague—the number of items that would meet the criteria to be exempted under this category. This exemption is just one of a package of five carefully balanced and deliberately limited exemptions. This package was developed following extensive consultation with stakeholders and represents what we believe is a proportionate and reasonable approach, while retaining the integrity of the Bill’s critical purpose. The exemption in Clause 2 recognises that there is a strata of items, made of or containing ivory, which are traded for their artistic, cultural or historical value rather than their ivory content. This exemption is specifically intended to be narrow and applicable only to rare and important items of their type.

Amendment 3, tabled by my noble friend Lord De Mauley, would change the backstop date of this exemption from 1918 to 1947. That would significantly increase the number of items which fell under the exemption. I recognise my noble friend’s concerns that ivory items from the Art Deco period would not be included in the exemption. However, I emphasise that the intention of the Bill is to ban dealing in ivory with narrow exemptions. In the case of any ban, there will always be items that fall outside any exemptions. We believe, as I am sure many other noble Lords do, that the 1918 backstop date is reasonable and proportionate.

However, as per the exemption set out in Clause 9, acquisitions by qualifying museums will not be affected by the ban—this was noted by my noble friend Lord Carrington and mentioned in her speech by the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell. Significant items from the Art Deco and Art Nouveau periods may be sold to accredited museums, where they may be enjoyed by the public and preserved for the nation. I reiterate: the Bill has no impact on any individual’s right to personally own, bequeath, gift or inherit these items.

Amendments 4, 5 and 6 would alter the definition of items in this exemption by removing “outstanding” or “outstandingly high”, and replacing “important” with “significant”. The effect of these amendments would be similar to others, by significantly increasing the number of items which fall into this category. In setting the criteria for this exemption—my noble friend Lord Carrington raised this—we will draw on existing criteria used to assess pre-eminence and national importance, such as the Waverley criteria and the export licensing regime for cultural objects. We will of course consult and work alongside expert institutions, museums and other key stakeholders to establish regulations setting out the detailed criteria for this exemption.

We are clear that items must be valued for their artistry, historical or cultural value, not their ivory content. As my noble friend Lord Gardiner and my right honourable friend the Secretary of State have said on a number of occasions, the Government intend to reduce the desirability of ivory items domestically and internationally. But nothing in the Bill will prevent anyone continuing to appreciate, enjoy or admire the artistry or craftsmanship of any ivory item that they own, have collected, have been given or have inherited.

My noble friends Lord De Mauley and Lady Neville-Rolfe talked about the inevitable loss of items. Why will these items be lost? The items might be artistic— perhaps an Art Deco sculpture. Why would they be destroyed? They might be theatre tokens, as in the case mentioned by my noble friend Lord Cormack. These items are interesting and elements of our social history; you would not destroy them.

[Lord Cormack]

They are also personal property, legally and properly acquired by people who felt that they would at some stage be able to sell them if they needed to. This is an invasion of private ownership and the principle of being able to dispose of what you legitimately acquired and own.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

I think that we have been through that particular hoop a number of times. Indeed, this Bill complies with the European Convention on Human Rights. It is a proportionate response to an issue of global concern.

These objects will not be destroyed. Perhaps even if individuals no longer want them, they could do what I do and give them away or use Freecycle for items with little sale value. I find items on Freecycle last for about a day. There are many options available to individuals who want to pass on their items containing ivory.

With that explanation, I hope that my noble friend feels able to withdraw his amendment.

Ivory Bill

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Lord Cormack

Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 12th September 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, I had not intended to take part in this brief debate. I do not support the amendments, which will not cause any great surprise. Not for the first time, I am rather provoked by the noble Baroness who has just spoken.

I do not believe that this Bill is the result of great care and massive consultation. This is hogwash, if one looks at the number of responses—and I will read these into the record yet again. First, the paper which went out did not state information for and against a total ban on ivory. That could have helped those who were genuinely concerned to come to an informed conclusion. Of the responses, 39,485—almost 40,000—were identical emails from members of the Stop Ivory campaign. Another 66,472—52%—responded to a 38 Degrees campaign. They would only have signed if they supported a total ban.

I come back to the point that those of us who believe that this is an example of gesture politics have made time and again. No single living elephant—all of which any sane, sensible person would wish to preserve—is going to be helped by this stringent, draconian ban on the sale of antique ivory. We are creating a massive and unnecessary bureaucracy which would merely be compounded by the passage of any of the three amendments that have been spoken to. I put this on record, though it will come as no surprise to any Member of your Lordships’ House to know that I feel very strongly on this issue. This legislation is entirely well motivated but ill conceived.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

My Lords, this group of amendments relates to reporting on enforcement resources and the impact of the UK ivory ban on international ivory markets.

Before I turn to the amendments, I should like to reassure the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, that my noble friend Lord Gardiner will respond to the points he raised about the operation and funding of the enforcement system in a group that noble Lords will come to later this afternoon. I will focus my remarks specifically on the reporting element of the amendments.

Amendment 38 raises the critical issue of ensuring effective enforcement of the ban. I assure your Lordships that this issue is of foremost concern to the Government, and I reassure the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, that it will not be neglected.

Marine Special Protection Areas

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Lord Cormack

Monday 21st May 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

I agree with the noble Lord. We are not aware of any major impact on plans or projects from the regulations currently in place.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, I remind my noble friend that there is a Bill before your Lordships’ House dealing with the appalling damage caused to our parish churches by bats. Will she look very sympathetically on those provisions, because our parish churches are as important to tourism as are the Isles of Scilly?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

My Lords, it was my great pleasure to be the Whip on the Front Bench for that Bill on that Friday. I listened to the arguments. It could not have escaped anyone’s attention that the Bill did not receive support from any of the Front Benches.