Financial Services and Markets Bill

Debate between Baroness Tyler of Enfield and Baroness Penn

Committee stage
Tuesday 7th March 2023 Grand Committee

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

On interchange fees, decisions regarding the operation and funding arrangements for an ATM network are taken by the parties involved. The noble Lord will know that LINK has commitments to protect the broad geographic spread of free-to-use ATMs and is held to account against those obligations and commitments by the Payment Systems Regulator. It has specifically committed to protect free-to-use ATMs more than one kilometre away from the next nearest free ATM or Post Office and free access to cash on high streets, and it supports free-to-use ATMs in deprived areas through its financial inclusion programme.

I recognise the point that the noble Lord has made. Coming back to the provision in the Bill, while I understand that different amendments have been tabled to look at how it could be enhanced or altered, it is important to acknowledge that legislating to protect access to cash is the Government recognising the point that the Committee made and taking action to address it. We want to have flexibility in how that is delivered, but we are providing for it in primary legislation and I hope that principle is welcomed, even though there are different opinions about how it could best be delivered.

Drawing towards the end of my remarks, I was going to note specifically on accessibility that that question was considered by the most recent Financial Inclusion Policy Forum. As I was saying to the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, while the Government do not support these amendments, I hope that noble Lords recognise the action that is being taken through the Bill and elsewhere, because the Government take these issues seriously. It is right to consider the outcome that we are all trying to deliver in a changing world: accessible financial services. That can mean a range of things, such as for people on low incomes being able to budget their money or for accessibility when it comes to disability, age or other factors. The way we have tried to approach access to cash in the Bill is by looking at delivering those outcomes in a flexible way, so I hope that at the moment the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, is able to withdraw her amendment and that other noble Lords do not press their amendments.

[Baroness Tyler of Enfield (LD)]

My Lords, it feels some time now since we started this group of amendments. I thank the Minister for her measured response in which she tried hard to reflect quite a wide range of views on the issues we have been talking about. I also thank all other noble Lords who have contributed. This has been a fascinating debate. There has been a reasonable degree on consensus in places, but by no means full consensus, and I certainly understand that.

I want to refer to a very important comment made by the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe. He said that this group is different and is about whether we want a divided society. Another noble Lord said—I am sorry but I cannot remember who it was—that banks are not charities. I think we all understand that but it is for us as legislators, a point I made in my opening speech, to decide on the sort of society that we want. That is actually what this group of amendments is about.

I listened to the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, and others, and I assure your Lordships that I am not stuck in the past. I make most of my payments by holding out my phone. However, a very helpful point was made by the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, which was that there are times when I do not want to pay like that. I still want to use cash sometimes, even though I can hold my phone out, and it is rather important that I have that choice.

Carers in England

Debate between Baroness Tyler of Enfield and Baroness Penn

Monday 6th March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

The Government welcome all contributions and ideas to this space, and I am sure that we will consider the proposals very carefully. As I have said, the Government set out their own plans in this area last year. We will update those plans, looking to put people at the heart of the social care system, this spring.

[Baroness Tyler of Enfield (LD)]

My Lords, with over 7 million people in the UK juggling work alongside unpaid care, and continuing to contribute their much-needed skills to the economy at a time of labour shortages, will the Government commit to produce a cross-departmental strategy for unpaid carers? Will the Minister agree to meet me to discuss how this might best be done?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

I will happily take the suggestion from the noble Baroness back. I, or perhaps someone else in the Government, could meet her to discuss it. She talked about many people juggling unpaid care with working responsibilities. That is why I am pleased that the Government are backing the Private Member’s Bill on carer’s leave, which will provide one week’s unpaid leave for carers.

Financial Services

Debate between Baroness Tyler of Enfield and Baroness Penn

Wednesday 11th January 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

I will absolutely be looking very carefully at all the details of yesterday’s debate. I do not think it necessary to amend the Bill to achieve what the noble Lord talks about. On face-to-face services and bank branch closures, there is already FCA regulation on banks seeking to close branches. That guidance has recently been strengthened and is very clear about the expectations for the provision of alternative services; also, the impact of branch closures on customers must be considered very carefully.

[Baroness Tyler of Enfield (LD)]

My Lords, recent research shows that blind and partially sighted people are twice as likely to be digitally excluded—and, by extension, financially excluded—as the general public. Does the Minister agree that the Financial Services and Markets Bill, which we discussed only last night, must give the FCA a “have regard to financial inclusion” statutory duty to ensure that financial inclusion is protected and advanced for blind and partially sighted people and other vulnerable groups?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, I recognise the strong interest in this area. As we debated last night, the previous Financial Services and Markets Act put an obligation on the FCA to look at it. It has brought forward its new consumer duty and believes that that fulfils the same function. I am sure that we will discuss this further in Committee.

Financial Inclusion in England

Debate between Baroness Tyler of Enfield and Baroness Penn

Wednesday 30th November 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, our approach is that accepting cash is a decision for the firms involved. We have taken action to ensure that people can access cash through ATMs and elsewhere. My noble friend also makes an important point about digital inclusion and digital payments. We are looking at how we can promote that alongside financial inclusion in our work through the Financial Inclusion Policy Forum and other avenues.

[Baroness Tyler of Enfield (LD)]

Will the Minister say which Minister has formal lead responsibility for financial inclusion now? Under the previous arrangements, it was not one but two Ministers: one in Treasury and one in DWP. It is not clear to me who is currently leading. The Minister just referred to the Financial Inclusion Policy Forum. What is going to happen moving forward and how frequently will it meet?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

The noble Baroness asks a very good question, and I am afraid I will have to double-check and get back to her. The reason that it has traditionally been a DWP and a Treasury Minister is their joint role on that policy forum. It is not me in the Treasury, but I will find out who it is. The Government and others have found it a useful forum to drive forward action in this area and I am sure they will want it to continue with its good work.

Financial Inclusion

Debate between Baroness Tyler of Enfield and Baroness Penn

Monday 11th July 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, I agree that school is a very important place to start for people’s life chances, and also their financial understanding. I am pleased to say that under this Government, the achievement gap for children at school between those in the poorest households and those in the wealthiest households has narrowed. That is something that we need to continue to make progress on.

[Baroness Tyler of Enfield (LD)]

My Lords, pursuing the point on poverty that we have just heard about, is the Minister aware that the poverty premium—the extra costs that people in poverty or on low incomes pay for essential products or services—costs the average low-income household some £430 a year? That is the equivalent to some 10 weeks’ grocery bills. Could the Minister explain why she does not think that giving the Financial Conduct Authority specific powers to tackle financial inclusion, including the poverty premium, is a good idea? I just do not understand it.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, I am aware of the poverty premium: it can exist in different ways in different sectors. There is already work under way to tackle that poverty premium; for example, the other week in Questions I spoke about work in the insurance sector to ensure that those with pre-existing conditions or those who are older can access products. We are continuing to work through the Financial Inclusion Policy Forum to make sure that things such as the poverty premium are tackled.

Financial Conduct Authority: Financial Inclusion

Debate between Baroness Tyler of Enfield and Baroness Penn

Tuesday 22nd March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, financial education is covered within both the citizenship and mathematics curricula, and primary schools are strongly encouraged to teach citizenship, including financial education. In addition, the Money and Pensions Service published financial education guidance for primary and secondary schools last year to support school leaders in enhancing the financial education that is currently delivered in their schools to make it memorable and impactful.

[Baroness Tyler of Enfield (LD)]

What assessment have the Government made of the effectiveness of the FCA in tackling the poverty premium—that is, the extra cost that people on low incomes pay for essential services and products such as prepayment energy meters? Does the Minister agree that, as the cost-of-living crisis grows, the FCA could make more progress on this vital issue if the regulator were required to consider financial inclusion across all areas of its work?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, the Government are conscious of the poverty premium, and so is the Financial Conduct Authority. We are committed to ensuring that all consumers can access financial services and products that are affordable to them. There are examples of concrete action in this area—for example, a pilot of a no-interest loans scheme and a pilot of prize-linked savings schemes for people who are struggling to access appropriate and affordable financial services. That is something that we want to continue to build on.

Cash Infrastructure

Debate between Baroness Tyler of Enfield and Baroness Penn

Monday 19th July 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, the Government have committed to financial inclusion in all its forms. As I said, we are taking forward this action on access to cash. We also want to look at more modern methods of payment and make sure that those who may have trouble accessing them have help and that they are made as accessible as possible to everyone in the country.

[Baroness Tyler of Enfield (LD) [V]]

My Lords, does the Minister agree with me that the Financial Conduct Authority should be given overall responsibility for maintaining a well-functioning cash infrastructure as part of its proposed new duty of care to consumers? Can the Government provide details of what discussions they have had with the regulator about it taking on this role and the additional powers it may need in order to do so effectively?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, the Government propose that the FCA is the lead regulator for the provision of cash withdrawal and depositing facilities. There are other regulators that have a role to play in access to cash—for example, the Payment Systems Regulator and the Bank of England. The Government convene all those regulators together on a regular basis to make sure that they are all working together properly.

Deprived Areas

Debate between Baroness Tyler of Enfield and Baroness Penn

Thursday 1st July 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, the levelling-up agenda will be about improving life chances across the UK, and the Government’s proposals in that area will be set out in a White Paper later this year. The noble Baroness has given me the opportunity to expand on some of the other important government policies that the noble and right reverend Lord asked about, so I say that introducing the national living wage and the pupil premium has focused support on those most in need.

[Baroness Tyler of Enfield (LD) [V]]

My Lords, yesterday’s report highlights the need for an ambitious new framework to reduce health inequalities, focusing far more sharply on the wider social determinants of health to make a reality of building back fairer from Covid, which has cruelly exposed and amplified inequalities in life expectancy. Given that mental health problems are the number one cause of death for men under 50, and the leading cause of maternal death in the UK, what immediate steps are the Government taking to improve the mental health of at-risk groups living in deprived areas?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, absolutely: as part of the NHS long-term plan, the Government have committed to improving mental health services and increasing the funding that goes to those services, as a proportion of overall funding, in every year of that plan.

Covid-19: Hospital Patient Referrals

Debate between Baroness Tyler of Enfield and Baroness Penn

Monday 28th June 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, given the number of times my noble friend has appeared at this Dispatch Box to answer questions from noble Lords during this pandemic, the noble Lord’s question is without any merit. I am sure that he will welcome the fact that he will see my noble friend at this Dispatch Box two or three times tomorrow.

[Baroness Tyler of Enfield (LD) [V]]

My Lords, in recent weeks, Ministers have quoted from the Public Health England report published in May, which claimed that only 1.6% of outbreaks in care homes potentially came as a result of hospitals discharging patients who had Covid—this despite the report having been widely criticised by independent experts in the sector as presenting an unrecognisable picture of the impact that hospital discharges in the absence of testing had had. Last week, the noble Lord, Lord Bethell, in response to a question from the noble Baroness, Lady Wheeler, said that he was not aware that the report was being revised. Will the noble Baroness now commit to investigating this issue properly and publishing the outcome?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, I will absolutely take that point away. My understanding is that there is the Public Health England report, while a number of other retrospective studies in Scotland and Wales have looked specifically at the impact of discharge policies. Although there has been a slight variation in the policies implemented across the four nations and the evidence is not as yet conclusive, the studies have indicated that discharge policies were not responsible for a significant number of outbreaks in care homes in the UK. We look at a number of pieces of evidence and we always look to make sure that that evidence is up to date. I will take back the noble Baroness’s specific point on the revision of that data and see what I can write to her in response.