Lords Spiritual (Women) Bill

Baroness Trumpington Excerpts

Thursday 12th February 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Trumpington (Con)]

My Lords, with permission, I am speaking in the gap, mainly because I am 92 years old and I thought that, as such, I was entitled to represent those women who are not here today in welcoming the future bishop, in whose elevation we are rejoicing at this moment. We have heard one or two excellent speeches from women but there is room for more, and I am, very inadequately, representing them—I hope, wholeheartedly—in our welcome. We look forward to seeing her in person.

A long time ago when I first came here, Lord Hailsham was on the Woolsack and for some unknown reason there were about 11 Bishops on the Benches. It so happened that Lord Hailsham sneezed. There was a very short pause, then he turned to the Bishops and said, “Won’t any of you bless me?”.

Be that as it may, things have moved on since those days. Certainly in 1988, when I first came here, a woman bishop would have been unthinkable. However, the House has put up with the likes of me for all these years and I am very grateful, as we all are. I wish the future bishop the greatest good fortune. I hope that when she enters this Chamber, even though it will not be to the sound of real trumpets, there will be trumpets sounding somewhere.

Power of Attorney

Baroness Trumpington Excerpts

Monday 11th November 2013 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Baroness Trumpington]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they will take to make it easier to nominate a power of attorney.

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally) (LD)]

My Lords, the Government have taken the following steps to make it easier to make a lasting power of attorney. First, the Office of the Public Guardian has released a test version of a digital tool which allows donors to make lasting powers of attorney online. Secondly, it has redesigned its paper forms to make them easier to follow and is consulting on proposals to combine the application processes of the two types of lasting power of attorney and to introduce a digital signature. The fee for registering a lasting power of attorney has been reduced from £130 to £110 from 1 October this year.

[Baroness Trumpington (Con)]

My Lords, I wonder who has told who about that reduction because I was quoted £200 by the lawyers. Many women, and maybe men as well, are thoroughly put off by the amount of money it will cost simply to do what one used to do. If the Minister asks his more elderly relations he may find out that one used to get a bit of paper, write on it “I give you power of attorney”, sign it and send it to the bank—that is all you had to do. This whole business seems to me unnecessarily expensive and time-consuming. I ask whether we might return to having a simple piece of paper.

[Lord McNally]

My Lords, I have to tell the noble Baroness that the number of older relations I have is becoming increasingly small. I take the point that she made, but we also have to be careful in dealing with matters where often quite considerable sums, in terms of inheritance, are in question. There has to be an orderly process that can be much better checked than the noble Baroness’s scrap of paper with a line on it. We are trying—and the Office of the Public Guardian is making every effort—to consult on this, and the consultations end on 26 November. We are trying to simplify and make it easier for people to do this without having to pay expensive legal fees.

Ian Brady

Baroness Trumpington Excerpts

Thursday 31st October 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

That is the value of this exchange. I will take that suggestion back. This is not a responsibility of the Ministry of Justice—as I say, the Legal Aid Agency is responsible for the legal costs on that side—but, as it now stands, those three health trusts are liable. I will report back to the Health Secretary and see whether this could be looked at. I hope that this will remain an almost unique case but, as the noble Lord indicates, there is a possibility that another such case will arise so we should look at this.

[Baroness Trumpington (Con)]

My Lords, does the mental health review tribunal come into this picture? I was proud to be a member of that tribunal, serving regularly in sessions at Broadmoor. Surely the tribunal should come into the picture, including the financial side of things. Examining Brady could come under its financial services.

Prisons: New Prisons

Baroness Trumpington Excerpts

Wednesday 20th March 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

Indeed. I have drawn attention before to the very high number of people in prison. While we are building new prisons, we are also closing old prisons. Our older prisons are ill equipped for rehabilitation. I hope that the proposals that we will be bringing forward on the rehabilitation and management of offenders will address some of those issues. I could not agree more that there are better ways of spending taxpayers’ money than on circulating repeat offenders through our prison system.

[Baroness Trumpington]

My Lords, may I stretch the words of the Question a little further to include farming? Farming was formerly part of a prisoner’s range of choices, particularly with a view to future jobs and a lifestyle. Apart from that, the meat that they provided from pigs and cows was fed to the prisoners and was perfectly delicious, as I know from Pentonville prison.

Prisoners: Voting Rights

Baroness Trumpington Excerpts

Thursday 22nd November 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for repeating the Statement. It is an issue of enormous interest and concern, not only in your Lordships’ House and the other place but across the country.

This is not the first time the UK Government have had to look at this issue. As the noble Lord said, it has been controversial since the 2004 Hirst case, when the European Court of Human Rights ruled that the UK’s blanket ban on prisoner voting was contrary to Article 3 of Protocol 1 of the convention. The Labour Government disagreed with the court’s decision. We appealed and we continued to challenge the decision until we lost office. There may be differences of view on this issue but the Labour Government provided clarity and a consistent position throughout our time in government.

One of my concerns now is the lack of consistency and the confused messages from this Government on the issue. Many of us will recall Prime Minister David Cameron’s comments in the House of Commons in November 2010 that it would make him,

“physically ill even to contemplate having to give the vote to anyone who is in prison”.—[Official Report, Commons, 3/11/2010; col. 921.]

As the Minister said, he has made similar comments since. Just a few weeks after those comments—in fact it was the last day in the Commons before the Christmas Recess in 2010—the Government snuck out a Written Statement announcing that prisoners on sentences of less than four years would get the vote. That would have meant roughly 30,000 prisoners getting the vote, nearly 8,000 of whom having been found guilty of violent and/or sexual offences, although other prisoners, presumably guilty of the same offences but serving slightly longer sentences, would not have got the vote. At the time, we asked the Government to share the legal advice on which the decision was based, but they refused to do so.

Then, following an overwhelming vote in the Commons in favour of the status quo on 10 February 2011, the Government appeared to abandon that policy and, this year, the Attorney-General again appealed to the European Court in the Grand Chamber and we supported that appeal. Then, just last month, the Guardian newspaper reported government plans for a draft Bill on prisoner voting. At the time, that was categorically denied by the Government, yet, four weeks later, we have a draft Bill. We need to digest the details of this draft Bill and will work with the Government to ensure that it receives the pre-legislative scrutiny that any such Bill deserves.

The Labour Opposition’s views on this issue are well known and well documented. We are unhappy with the European Court ruling on prisoner voting. It is not a case of our Government failing to hold free or fair elections, or of massive electoral fraud; this is about those convicted of an offence deemed so serious as to warrant a prison sentence being denied while they are in prison a number of rights and privileges, including the privilege of voting. The Labour Government remained consistently of the view that this should be within the margin of appreciation that nation states are given by the court.

Prison is a punishment, and we feel equally strongly about the state’s responsibilities aggressively to intervene to address offending behaviour of prisoners and to try to prevent reoffending. Improving physical and mental health, literacy, preparation and training for work and preparation for life outside prison are crucial ways in which any country should seek to end the cycle of offending. The notion that depriving a serving prisoner of the vote means that it is more likely that they will reoffend is absurd.

We have to respect, and will respect, the rule of law. We cannot abide just by those judgments that we agree with. We are mindful of our obligations under the European Convention on Human Rights and of the way that it has protected human rights across Europe for more than six decades. However, we regret that the Government wasted the opportunity to reform the court during their recent chairmanship of the Council of Europe. They failed to secure changes that would have led to the court respecting the unique circumstances of each individual member country and have prevented it adjudicating on domestic social policy such as this.

Parliamentarians should know the Government’s legal advice on what is needed to discharge our obligations under the convention on human rights. We need full information and clarity on the ramifications of any decisions that Parliament may take, because there is a risk that choosing the wrong option could lead to compensation claims from prisoners and to us as a country being in breach of the rule of law.

We have again requested that the Government publish their legal advice so that Parliament can make an informed judgment. Does the Minister consider that it would be helpful to your Lordships’ House, the other place and any Joint Committee if the legal advice on which the draft Bill relies could be made available to Parliament? If not, why not?

How long do the Government anticipate the pre-legislative scrutiny lasting? My reason for asking is that the Government’s position on this issue has changed so often and caused so much uncertainty that it would be helpful for it to be clarified as soon as possible. When is Parliament likely to be able to vote on these options as the Government have outlined and are the Government likely to recommend any of the three options to Parliament?

This is an important issue that causes enormous concern in the country, in your Lordships’ House and in the other place, and we need clarity. On the one hand, we have the Prime Minister saying that even contemplating giving prisoners the vote makes him physically sick and the Government denying press reports that there would be a draft Bill, yet, on the other, we have a draft Bill being published today. Surely, on this issue, the Government should offer some consistency and leadership and be clear about their intentions.

[Baroness Trumpington]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Trumpington]

My Lords, I do apologise for jumping up earlier and I shall jump down pretty soon. My remarks are based on many years as a member of the board of visitors of Pentonville prison and many years as a member of the mental health review tribunal dealing with Broadmoor.

First, I wonder about the inmates of Broadmoor, some of whom, one hopes, will become normal, if not totally, criminal lunatics with time. Will they eventually get votes? The same would apply to institutions where the prisoners are drug addicts. What would be their position? I have a feeling that every prison has a hospital. Who is going to judge whether the patients in the prison hospitals are in fit state to vote?

I also wonder whether Members of Parliament who have prisons in their constituencies have thought about their future voting figures—rather different perhaps from what they are now. There are a great many questions to be answered. I have a feeling that I share the views of the Minister and I hope that he can put my mind at rest on some of my questions.

[Lord McNally]

My Lords, the list of questions raised by the noble Baroness illustrates why this has been a very difficult issue. The issue of prisoners with mental illnesses has been looked at separately, but parallel, to this. However, the level and seriousness of illness has been a concern and that is why there are a range of options. I hope that when the Joint Committee is set up it will look at some of these issues and take evidence from a wide range of people with experience and expertise. I pay tribute to the noble Baroness’s personal expertise and experience in this area. Some serious examination is needed now based on good analysis and well informed opinion from people with experience. That then needs to be synthesised by the Select Committee into a well informed recommendation to Parliament. It is a sensible process and the indications are that all sides of the House will pay their part constructively.

Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill

Baroness Trumpington Excerpts

Tuesday 27th March 2012 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally)]

My Lords, I beg to move the order of consideration Motion.

[Baroness Trumpington]

My Lords, I apologise. Perhaps I may ask the noble Lord, Lord McNally, whether the removal of the boards which have recently been erected in Parliament Square will have to wait until the Bill supported by the noble Lord, Lord Marlesford, is passed. If so, I consider that the relevant authorities are wet.

[Lord McNally]

My Lords, I am not sure of the answer to that question. I know that I have just moved a formal Motion. In case the noble Baroness thinks that she will have to wait until about 11 o’clock to get an answer, I should say that all the Motions between this one and the Report stage of the Parliament Square (Management) Bill are formal. Perhaps she will let me move this formal Motion, and we can then move on very quickly to Parliament Square, when she might want to intervene again.

Crime: Reoffending

Baroness Trumpington Excerpts

Thursday 1st March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

My Lords, I fully support what the noble Baroness said about the treatment of women offenders. I have said before at the Dispatch Box that we have far too many women in our prisons. We will shortly launch a consultation on community sentencing. We are also, as the original Question suggested, moving a lot of this treatment to local authorities, with the funding and encouragement to take a holistic approach. As the noble Baroness rightly said, it is better that drug and alcohol dependency and other factors should be treated holistically.

[Baroness Trumpington]

Will the Minister very briefly tell me whether he agrees that the lack of reading and writing abilities among prisoners makes it difficult for them to get jobs when they leave prison? Will he therefore encourage more educational facilities in prison?

[Lord McNally]

I assure the noble Baroness that that is high on our list of priorities and that we intend to do so.

Public Disorder: Restorative Justice

Baroness Trumpington Excerpts

Wednesday 26th October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

Marylebone Road. Thank you. I am about to give the right answer now. I appreciate how convenient it was for Members of both Houses to be in Horseferry Road, but in fact they now have to go to a splendid new court in Marylebone Road.

[Baroness Trumpington]

Is the Minister aware that the Horseferry Road courts, which I presume are the ones he is talking about—in which I sat as a magistrate for several years, although never, I regret to say, when the noble Lord was present—were new buildings and new courts?

[Lord McNally]

I think I would prefer Judge Jeffreys rather than the thought of being up before the noble Baroness. Again, I will write with full details, but I suspect that under the previous Administration—

Prisons and Young Offender Institutions: Education and Training

Baroness Trumpington Excerpts

Monday 28th February 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Trumpington]

The Minister has just talked about illiteracy. Does he agree that it is very difficult to get a job when you leave prison and you cannot read and write? Can he explain why the farms and gardens are closed? They provide very suitable work for people who may have a great love for that kind of work but who cannot read and write.

[Lord McNally]

Across the Prison Service we are trying to identify opportunities for people to be trained. As the noble Baroness says, for somebody who lacks literacy—although I hope we address that in our programmes—gardening and similar park activity may quite often provide rewarding and worthwhile employment.

Prisoners: Diet

Baroness Trumpington Excerpts

Tuesday 21st December 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

I warmly endorse the noble Lord’s last comment, and hope that all noble Lords will take home for their Christmas reading the Green Paper which my department has published. However, welcome as his point was, it was a little far from the Question. I shall just say that the amount that we spend per day on prisoner meals is £2.20.

[Baroness Trumpington]

Does the Minister think that it was a good idea to get rid of the prison farms, which supplied pork, vegetables and other necessities for prisoners’ well-being?

[Lord McNally]

My Lords, I do think that it was wrong to get rid of the prison farms. One thing that we are looking at as part of making prison terms working terms is looking again at the idea of prisoners doing farm work. I think that it would be a very good thing to return to.