Nursing and Midwifery (Amendment) Order 2018

Debate between Baroness Thornton and Lord Willis of Knaresborough

Monday 25th June 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Thornton (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for his excellent explanation of this order, which provides the Nursing and Midwifery Council with the necessary legal powers to regulate the nursing associate profession. On these Benches, we will be supporting the order, and I thank the Nursing and Midwifery Council and the RCN for their excellent briefs.

We are ready to accept that the creation of nursing associates is a welcome addition to building capacity. Some of us who are long in the tooth—there may be one or two in the House today—will remember SRNs and SENs and wonder whether we have gone full circle to move forward. However, I accept that there is some urgency to get this on the statute book because, initially, 2,000 nursing associates were training at 35 Health Education England test sites, with a further 5,000 starts planned for this year. The first nursing associates will qualify to apply for registration with the NMC from January 2019, so I accept the urgency to implement this order.

The Minister says that the nursing associate role is a defined care role to act as a bridge between unregulated healthcare assistants and the registered nursing workforce. Now that that role has been created, we agree with the Royal College of Nursing that,

“there must be absolute clarity that the nursing associate … is not a separate profession, but a new role within the nursing family that works under the delegation of the Registered Nurse”.

It went on to ask for “urgent guidance” to be published on “the precise relationship between” nurse associates and registered nurses,

“in terms of delegation and accountability”.

I hope that the Minister has taken that on board.

It is important to recognise that this new role is not the answer to the huge workforce challenges faced by the NHS and the social care system. Last week when the Government announced their funding proposals for the NHS, and the creation of a 10-year plan, many noble Lords said—we agreed—that it would be meaningless if this does not cover healthcare workers and social care workers together, given their importance in the future of our healthcare and social care system. Given that Health Education England has had its budget slashed, that we have a huge decrease in healthcare workers from the European Union, and the soon-to-be-removed—I hope—ridiculous visa system for non-EU health workers, the fact is that more nurses are leaving the profession than joining it, and there is a demographic challenge in that one in three nurses is due to retire in the next decade. In that context there is a well-founded anxiety that nursing associates could be used as a substitute for registered nurses.

Also in that context, has this new role been thought through, or is it a quick response to nursing shortages, with unfilled nursing posts which, as we know, are at a record high? Linked to that, how do we ensure that this new role does not impact negatively on the social care workforce? The head of Health Education England has highlighted that problem.

The role of a nursing associate was created before this SI was even introduced. Has there been enough time to consider the standards and levels of training for nursing associates to be registered with the NMC? I have to say that I am comforted by two things. One is the comprehensive brief from the NMC which suggests that it is on top of this, and indeed the notes accompanying the amendment order itself. I want to raise two things with the Minister, which are on page 5 of the accompanying notes and concern the cost-benefit impact analysis and the regulation of the nursing associates. Two risks are identified:

“First, there is a financial risk that the agreed initial set up costs escalate beyond those currently agreed with NMC. Second, the unquantified costs mentioned above relating to setting up and/or amending existing nursing associate courses as well as the accreditation of education providers”.


Those risks need to be mitigated before this moves forward in an orderly fashion. Finally, I think that there is provision in the order to take account of European Economic Area nursing associates, but I understand that this is not a uniform description or role that fits the narrative across the board. Will the Minister also comment on that?

[Lord Willis of Knaresborough (LD)]

My Lords, I rise from the second Bench—I am not quite trusted to be on the front yet—

Public Bodies Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Thornton and Lord Willis of Knaresborough

Monday 28th March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Thornton]

My Lords, we turn to Amendments 49 and 50 and the subject of the HFEA and the HTA somewhat late in the evening again. We have now had time to reflect on what the Minister said on 9 March, to read the letter to my noble friend Lord Warner, which the noble Lord thoughtfully copied to me and others, and to compare the two. In reading the debate on 9 March, I realised it had centred on the issues that arise out of the siting of the HFEA rather than on the proposals for the HTA, so I shall start by raising a few issues that are particularly pertinent to the HTA.

Since the previous debate, the Government have announced that the HTA has been appointed as the competent authority to regulate the quality and safety of organs under the EU organ donation directive. The HTA is now the competent authority for two EU directives. I would be grateful if the Minister will explain where this competence will sit under the various options he outlined in his letter to my noble friend Lord Warner. In addition, the HTA’s responsibilities with respect to EU legislation extend across the UK, but the Care Quality Commission’s remit extends to England only. The Minister can see where I am leading with this question because of the statutory implications that such a move might involve. For example, have the Government consulted the Welsh Administration about this matter or would they divide the legislation or extend the geographical remit of the CQC? Indeed, what if the Welsh said no to such matters regulated by the CQC?

We also need to look at the context in which these changes are being proposed. There are loopholes between coroners legislation, the Human Tissue Act and the Police and Criminal Justice Act which the HTA is addressing at the moment. I think it is right to be concerned with the Government’s continued determination to abandon the idea of establishing a chief coroner’s officer, the abolition of the National Policing Improvement Agency combined with proposals to break up the HTA’s functions. Added to the squeeze on resources in the central government’s resource, one should ask what guarantees will continue to be there and where they will be concerning human tissue not being retained without consent.

When the Minister answered this debate on 9 March, he took the trouble to explain in some detail the Government’s thinking about the future of the HFEA and the HTA and spoke about the possible creation of a new health research agency, which I think largely met with a great deal of approval across the House, and I shall return to that matter in a moment. His letter to my noble friend explores the various options that the Government might take with the powers that the Bill will grant them. I know my noble friend Lord Warner will want to explore the contents of that letter, so I shall limit myself to two issues that are still outstanding and need to be addressed before Parliament grants such powers with regard to these two bodies.

The first is the nature of the pick-and-mix proposals for the future of the HFEA and HTA, which the Minister suggested in his reply to the House on 9 March and in his letter to my noble friend, because I do not think it is acceptable to ask for powers fundamentally to change these organisations and not to know at this stage how those changes might be achieved and what they will do. The Minister spoke about this being a road of travel. Roads of travel are fine when one is developing policy but they are more difficult when one is putting into legislation things which will have a direct effect—in this case, on these two organisations.

Secondly, I return to public confidence, which I raised in Committee. I have read the Minister’s reply on the importance of keeping public confidence in the functions of the HFEA and the HTA. It centres around the fact that he is keen to assure the House that the legislation, and the ethics that underpin that legislation creating the HFEA and HTA would not be fundamentally changed. But I am puzzled: I do not see how, as regards the options outlined by the Minister—the orders that would need to be consulted on—he would intend to stop those ethical issues that lie at the heart of that legislation being discussed at length because of the public confidence that resides in them. When change is being proposed, that reassurance and the assurance that the new arrangements will do their job is obviously very important. Option papers do not usually provide the necessary assurance about people’s jobs or functions and, in this case, about where the ethical issues that underpin that legislation would lie.

I feel that the Government have the opportunity to move forward with the creation of a new science body, and the future of the HFEA and the HTA, with a great deal of agreement across the House and with a great deal of good will to make that happen. I do not think that this Bill is the place to start that, which probably is the heart of the problem.

[Lord Willis of Knaresborough]

Before the noble Baroness leaves the issue of ethics, if the agency model is developed, which would have a separate ethics committee that I think most of us would accept, does she agree that it is not just simply the ethics of research that is important, it is also the ethnical decisions about developing clinical practice? The need for those to be kept together within the new agency is of paramount importance in order that there is public confidence. Without the setting up of the agency, there will be a huge gap that needs to be filled.

[Baroness Thornton]

The noble Lord, Lord Willis, makes the point extremely well and much more eloquently than I was able to. It underlines the point that I have been trying to make. Taking the powers to break up the HFEA and the HTA, as it were, is not the way to start that process. The noble Lord makes exactly the right point. The Minister should recognise that there is a great deal of good will to make this happen across the House but not starting here. I beg to move.