Health Bill
Debate between Baroness Thornton and Baroness NargundWednesday 28th October 2026
(1 week, 1 day ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Health Bill 2026-27 View all Health Bill 2026-27 Debates Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts Amendment Paper: HL Bill 52-I(Rev)(a) Amendments for Committee (Supplementary to the Revised Marshalled List) - (28 Oct 2026)
Baroness Thornton (Lab)
My Lords, I thought it would be appropriate for those of us who have been involved in this for the last 15 years or so to join in the debate a little. The noble Lord, Lord Lansley, is quite right: this is about transition. It is about a transition that affects two groups of people: patients and people who work in the NHS.
I am a veteran of the transitions that we have had so far, because I was abolished in 2020. I became a member of my local CCG, which I very much enjoyed serving on, having worked on the 2012 legislation that created it. I then took refuge as a non-executive director in my local hospital. I helped to create our local ICB, which is now being abolished with a super-ICB being created. I feel as if I have been at the governance coalface of the reorganisations for the last 15 years. This is an important debate, and I am in favour of the abolition of NHS England.
I intend to involve myself in Committee mostly with equality, social care, patient records and so on, but I have a question for my noble friend the Minister about the arrangements for the people who will move from NHS England into the department and where they stand right now. Those people are very precious to us, and many of them are very experienced. I would like to know how the TUPE arrangements are progressing, what the dates are for those arrangements and when we are likely to see some documentation about how that will actually happen.
Baroness Nargund (Lab)
My Lords, I understand and support the general thrust of this amendment. I have worked in the NHS for nearly 40 years and have worked very closely with NHS England. Having experienced all the transitions that have happened with local health boards, PCTs, CCGs and ICBs, and having worked with CCGs and ICBs across England as a provider and doctor and with NHS England, as I said at Second Reading, I wholeheartedly support the abolition of NHS England. It will cut the bureaucracy and the unnecessary layer. I support the Secretary of State taking back the power to give it away to ICBs where patients are treated. It also fits in with the neighbourhood health plan, because they are best placed to develop and deliver that.