Official Controls (Amendment) Regulations 2024
Baroness Suttie Excerpts(4 days, 18 hours ago)
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Baroness Suttie (LD)
My Lords, as ever, I thank the Minister, as did the noble Lord, Lord McCrea, for her detailed explanation of these regulations, as well as for her tireless work in trying to find solutions to this complex set of issues.
As is now customary in these debates, there are really two debates going on simultaneously. The first is on the details of the regulations before us, and the second is on the highly complex constitutional and worrying things that noble Lords opposite have been mentioning this evening. The noble Lord, Lord Frost, used the word “unsatisfactory”. It is true that the second area of concern is about the difficult relations between the EU, Great Britain and Northern Ireland following Brexit. As the noble Lord, Lord Bew, said, it is a messy compromise; that is the situation we find ourselves in. The noble Baroness, Lady Hoey, is right—as usual—in thinking that I am saying what I believe to be the solution to this, which is not the same as what she believes to be the solution to this problem.
We support these regulations; we think they are necessary as a stopgap before a full-blown SPS veterinary agreement is put in place. I repeat what I have said in previous debates, that I hope the new Northern Ireland Committee of this House will provide a useful mechanism for carrying out the much-needed greater scrutiny of many of these issues, as the noble Lord, Lord Dodds, said. He is quite right: there needs to be greater scrutiny of these regulations, and it is important that from time to time, we debate them in this Chamber, but I hope that your Lordships’ new Northern Ireland Committee will be able to look at these issues in great detail and perhaps carry out detailed inquiries, specifically on some of these issues regarding food and plant biosecurity.
Since we last had one of these debates, it is welcome that the noble Lord, Lord Murphy, has been appointed as independent reviewer of the Windsor Framework. As the noble Lord, Lord Dodds, said, he will bring a great deal of experience and wisdom to that role. It is also welcome, at least on these Benches, that the Government have not ruled out joining the pan-European customs union, which we believe will be greatly welcome as a first sensible step towards improving and deepening our relationship with the EU, as well as strengthening the economy. Obviously, the Minister is not the Minister for these issues, but I would like her to confirm that joining such a pan-European customs area would significantly reduce the bureaucratic burden for businesses, including many of those affected by these particular regulations.
Turning to the regulations themselves, I ask the Minister—as did the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie—for an update on progress regarding the new SPS veterinary agreement. Is the Minister able to give some more information and detail on progress on that agreement and how long does she now think it will be until we are able to reach an agreement? Does she think there is any risk to animals and of animal-related disease during the period before such an agreement is reached? I believe that the veterinary SPS agreement was a Labour Party manifesto commitment, so I am absolutely sure that the Government are keen to make progress on this sooner rather than later.
In the Explanatory Memorandum attached to these regulations, paragraph 5.22 refers to
“debt recovery and collection costs for unpaid fees”.
Is the Minister able to tell us the total cost of unpaid fees and the average fee charge for the service provided? Is it the case that the non-payment of fees is endemic, or is it just a small proportion of the overall costs involved?
Finally, the Minister will remember that, at the time the previous Government were introducing border control posts, which, as other noble Lords mentioned, were not at the point of entry to the country but some miles away, there was genuine concern about the likelihood of some goods deliberately avoiding control posts, which could result in goods entering the country without the necessary sanitary and phytosanitary checks. The Minister touched on this a little in her introduction, but can she give further reassurances that there is no such likelihood of this happening either now or in the future?
Generally, from these Benches we support this SI as the next stage in a process which is already in train and which has so far been working fairly effectively, but we sincerely hope that an SPS veterinary agreement can be finalised soon.
Lord Caine (Con)
My Lords, I too am very grateful to the Minister for setting out the main provisions of the instrument before us this evening, and to the noble Baroness, Lady Hoey, for bringing the debate to the Chamber this evening. I also thank all other noble Lords for contributing to a debate which has, somewhat unsurprisingly, covered much familiar territory regarding the position of Northern Ireland following the United Kingdom’s decision to depart from the European Union.
As the noble Lord, Lord Dodds of Duncairn, made clear in his contribution, the statutory instrument before your Lordships this evening is very technical. If noble Lords will forgive me, given the lateness of the hour, I will not follow noble Lords into those weeds, if I can put it like that. Rather, I will turn briefly to the regret amendment in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Hoey, whose criticisms, along with those of other noble Lords, I fully appreciate apply as much to the Government in which I and my noble friend Lord Frost served at various junctures as they do to the current Administration.
I do not intend to engage in a detailed defence of all that we did in government, but I hope that the noble Baroness and others who have spoken will accept that I genuinely respect the views that they have put forward this evening. I know they are deeply and sincerely held and reflect the views of a great number of people in Northern Ireland itself. It is therefore important that both the Government and the Opposition continue to listen to those concerns and, wherever possible, seek to address them. If that is the approach to be taken by the Government, they will certainly have our backing in doing so.
As a Minister, I was very clear that the Windsor Framework and the Command Paper Safeguarding the Union, which was published a year ago this Friday, represented considerable improvements on the original flawed protocol, and indeed the 2017 joint report, which, I am afraid to say, is the root of so many of the problems that we have faced, as the noble Lord, Lord Bew, has consistently pointed out. I also spoke on this before I became a Minister, when I was a member of the same committee as the noble Lord, Lord Dodds. It was very flawed.
As the House knows, I spent a great deal of time from the other side of the Dispatch Box implementing many of the provisions of the framework and the Command Paper, which in my view aimed to strengthen and future-proof Northern Ireland’s place within the United Kingdom and to protect the integrity of the UK internal market for the long term. But I never for one moment suggested that the framework or the Command Paper were in any way perfect, or necessarily the last word. Indeed, I remember that, when I took the Stormont brake regulations through your Lordships’ House, in my closing section I had a sentence in which I said that the framework was not the perfect agreement. It will not surprise some noble Lords to learn that my officials wanted me to strike out that sentence, and I had to reinsert it when I got to my feet in the House. So, I have never thought that the provisions that we brought forward in government were beyond any improvement.
It was and remains my view that, where there is evidence of disadvantage to Northern Ireland as a result of current arrangements, any Government have a duty to listen and to act, using the provisions and bodies that are in place to resolve problems, or indeed to bring forward proposals for more substantive change. We have heard this evening a number of suggestions from noble Lords across the House and the Opposition, under new leadership and new management, will look with an open mind at practical and workable solutions that are put forward to us. Of course, we also look forward to the conclusions of, and hope to participate in, the review being carried out by the noble Lord, Lord Murphy of Torfaen, along, in due course, with the Government’s response.
We should at all times in this House be guided by what is in the interests of the United Kingdom as a whole, and that must include an enduring commitment to delivering the best outcomes for our fellow citizens in Northern Ireland. I look forward to the noble Baroness’s reply.
Movement of Goods (Northern Ireland to Great Britain) (Animals, Feed and Food, Plant Health etc.) (Transitory Provision and Miscellaneous Amendments) Regulations 2024
Baroness Suttie Excerpts(1 month, 3 weeks ago)
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Baroness Suttie (LD)
My Lords, I thank the Minister again for introducing these regulations and for the extremely constructive way in which she has taken a personal interest in trying to find pragmatic solutions to this undoubtedly very complex set of issues.
It is clear from the several debates we have had on the Windsor Framework regulations, today and previously, that they provoke strong emotions and reactions from the noble Lords of the DUP and the noble Baroness, Lady Hoey. However, it is true that in Northern Ireland there are also different points of view on these matters, which we heard very clearly, eloquently and constructively expressed by the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie.
I will not repeat the Brexit arguments that I have made previously, but it is none the less true that we would not be debating these issues if we were still in the European Union or if the whole of the United Kingdom had remained in the EU single market. There are genuine and legitimate issues about how to carry out parliamentary scrutiny of EU single market regulations when we no longer have representation in EU institutions and have to be a rule-taker without a say in the process. I have suggested previously that it would be useful for the whole House to have a wider debate, at some point soon, on our relations with the EU and on the much talked about reset with the EU and what it would look like in reality. It would also be useful to have a debate on the approach towards parliamentary oversight of decisions and regulations adopted by the EU and their impact on UK businesses in both Northern Ireland and Great Britain.
On the specifics of the regulations we are debating this evening, from these Benches we broadly welcome them as a further pragmatic and temporary step to try to make this complex arrangement work slightly more effectively. As these regulations apply only to sanitary and phytosanitary controls on European Union and rest-of-world goods entering Great Britain from Northern Ireland, we believe that they sharpen the competitive advantage of Northern Ireland traders moving qualifying Northern Ireland goods.
I have three questions. The first is the same as the one the noble Lord, Lord Dodds, asked. Can the Minister say when this long-term approach to these issues is likely to be published and adopted? As she said in her introduction, these temporary measures will apply only until July next year. Can she say how MPs, noble Lords and all Northern Ireland political parties and businesses will be consulted in this process?
My second question is the same as the one the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie, asked. Can the Minister say a little more about progress or otherwise on an SPS and veterinary agreement? It is clearly for the new Northern Ireland Affairs Committee in your Lordships’ House to decide its own programme, but it would be very useful if it were to look at some of these issues when it starts work next year.
My third and final question is something I ask every time. Can the Minister explain a little more about how these regulations will be enforced and policed in reality? Other noble Lords have raised this in a different way. I conclude by thanking her once again, and I look forward to hearing her responses.
Lord Blencathra (Con)
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Dodds of Duncairn, for bringing this regret amendment to the House. I listened to some very powerful speeches by him and his noble friends on both sides of the House.
His Majesty’s loyal Opposition have some significant doubts and concerns about these regulations, given the impact they may have on goods moving from Northern Ireland into Great Britain, but we will not oppose them. We welcome that some goods will continue to have unfettered access to Great Britain, but we are concerned about the non-qualifying goods and the effect this will have on businesses that trade across the Irish Sea.
While the Windsor Framework was a significant improvement on the original protocol, that is not to say that improvements cannot be made wherever necessary. The Opposition will continue to scrutinise the secondary legislation and assess its impact. Can the Minister confirm to the House that the Government will keep these regulations under review and take any action necessary to lighten the burden on businesses trading across the Irish Sea where possible?
The businesses affected by these regulations may need extra support. Can the Minister outline the steps that the Government are taking to give businesses in Northern Ireland the support they need? Indeed, what assessment have the Government made of the effect of these changes on businesses in Great Britain trading with Northern Ireland? How will the Government support that smooth trade?
Goods from Northern Ireland must be traded as freely as possible, and they should not be at an unfair disadvantage. That was at the core of our work when we were in government. We all know that the Windsor Framework was the result of a painstaking negotiation with the EU, but the Government should do everything they can to ensure Northern Ireland’s smooth and unfettered access to the UK internal market. As my honourable friend the Member for Brentwood and Ongar said in the other place:
“The Windsor framework, I believe, is better than the protocol. ‘Safeguarding the Union’ is better than the Windsor framework, but that does not mean that further progress is not possible”.—[Official Report, Commons, 6/12/24; col. 627.]
Does the Minister agree with that assessment?
We look forward to scrutinising the Government’s approach to Northern Ireland policy further, and to the Minister addressing our concerns about smooth trade between Northern Ireland and Great Britain and about upholding the importance of biosecurity—biosecurity not just in GB but Northern Ireland for goods that stop there. We will press the Government to bring forward plans to encourage businesses to trade across the sea so that we all benefit across the whole of our United Kingdom.
Windsor Framework (Non-Commercial Movement of Pet Animals) Regulations 2024
Baroness Suttie Excerpts(2 months ago)
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Lord Morrow (DUP)
My Lords, it will hardly come as a surprise to anyone that I will support the amendment from the noble Baroness, Lady Hoey, as will my colleagues. In the debate on these regulations in another place, the Minister’s main defence was that they should be celebrated as an achievement because they represented an advance on what went before. There are two huge problems with that argument, as I see it, and I implore the Minister to be more sensitive to Northern Ireland—somehow, I think she will be—than the Minister in the other place was.
In the first instance, if these regulations were an improvement on what went before, they would be wholly unacceptable, because they are still a function of EU regulation 1231, which has already been mentioned tonight by others. It allows our country to be divided in two and hands the governance of that division, in the final analysis, to the European Union. In the second instance, they are not an improvement on what has gone before but a deterioration, because the marker against which the Government suggest that an improvement is being made is entirely theoretical, because the division to which they allude was never ever accommodated.
Let us, therefore, not play with words: these regulations confront us with a new level of division within ourselves from March 2025. I also appeal to the Minister not to confuse the issue by saying that Northern Ireland has always been treated differently for SPS purposes. There is a distinction, in my view anyway, between internal SPS checks within a sovereign country, on one hand, and the imposition of an international plant health border—I cannot think of any other way to say it—along with an international customs border, on the other, for the purpose of dividing our country into two. This is why people travelling from England to Northern Ireland have never before had to travel with a pet passport, border checks and the possibility of having their dogs remitted to an SPS facility. It is incredible—unbelievable.
I also appeal to the Minister not to tell us in Northern Ireland that we have nothing to worry about because the difficulties face those moving from GB to Northern Ireland and not the other way around. In the first instance, it is not correct that there are no burdens imposed on the movement of pets from Northern Ireland to GB. EU regulation 1231 makes it clear that pets must be microchipped, which is currently common only for dogs. In the second instance, however, and far more importantly, people who state that we have nothing to worry about because the burden is on east-west movements completely misjudge the situation and completely misunderstand us. Northern Ireland is the smallest part of the United Kingdom. If the Government impose any obstacles on people moving from GB to Northern Ireland, that necessarily makes the people of Northern Ireland feel more isolated and cut off, which is completely unacceptable.
The regulations confront us with exactly the same difficulty we confronted when looking at the Windsor Framework (Retail Movement Scheme: Plant and Animal Health) (Amendment etc.) Regulations 2024 in October. On that occasion we were forced to recognise that it was impossible to scrutinise the regulations without also scrutinising EU regulation 2023/1231, especially Articles 4 and 12. On this occasion, we have to look especially at Articles 12 and 14 of regulation 1231, as well as the regulations immediately before us.
In coming to today’s debate we must first remind ourselves of the title of EU regulation 1231:
“Regulation (EU) 2023/1231 of the European Parliament and of the Council of 14 June 2023 on specific rules relating to the entry into Northern Ireland from other parts of the United Kingdom of certain consignments of retail goods, plants for planting, seed potatoes, machinery and certain vehicles operated for agricultural or forestry purposes, as well as non-commercial movements of certain pet animals into Northern Ireland”.
This is a piece of legislation that relates not just to Northern Ireland but to the whole United Kingdom and it divides our country by an international border imposed by and governed by the EU.
Article 12 requires that if you wish to travel from Great Britain to see family in Northern Ireland with your pet dog, you can do so only if, first, you acquire a pet travel document validating that your pet is micro- chipped. Secondly, you have to sign a form renouncing your right to travel with your pet into the Republic of Ireland. Thirdly, your pet and its papers have to be checked on moving from GB to Northern Ireland—and you do so uncertainly, because you know that both you and your pet can be prevented from proceeding freely and may be sent to an SPS facility and not allowed to leave unless and until permission to do so is granted. In other words, you are made to feel like you are visiting a foreign country, and we are made to feel like we are foreigners.
In the last debate, the Minister sought to defend the imposition of EU regulation 1231, by which the EU not only imposes but asserts its sovereign right to govern the border in a way that is completely contrary to international law. The UN Declaration on Principles of International Law concerning Friendly Relations and Co-operation among States in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations does not tolerate any action such as that effected by the Windsor Framework and EU regulation 1231. It states that:
“Every State shall refrain from any action aimed at the partial or total disruption of the national unity and territorial integrity of any other State or country”.
How can we accommodate legislation, such as the Windsor Framework, that violates international law? No country can accommodate its division into two, especially when this also results in the disenfranchisement of 1.9 million people and the creation of a colony in 2024. The Government can kid themselves that all is well and that we can all live with this, but no country with an ounce of self-respect or commitment to its citizens, and any hope of a future, can accommodate this. They must wake up and adopt the EU (Withdrawal Arrangements) Bill that is to have its Second Reading on 6 December in another place.
As my noble friend Lord McCrea has ably stated, we do not do majoritarianism in Northern Ireland. We have not been doing it for 50 years but, all of a sudden, in this instance, it is the acceptable way. If there was to be majority rule on other things in Northern Ireland, I suspect that those who are in favour of this regulation would be the first on their feet to say, “This is not the way we do things”. This is not the way it is done in Northern Ireland and the pending vote, which the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie, has already referred to, is a departure from those who gave us the Belfast agreement.
Baroness Suttie (LD)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for her introduction to these regulations, and for all the hard work she is doing to try to resolve the extremely difficult issues, which have been raised so eloquently by so many noble Lords.
I have three brief points. Like the noble Lord, Lord Dodds, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Hoey, for the opportunity to discuss these issues. However, I am not going to disappoint her, and I am going to say what she predicted I would. I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie, and, as I have said on several occasions during these debates, I am afraid that we are in this situation because of the type of hard Brexit that the previous Government chose to adopt, as the noble Lord, Lord Empey, eloquently said when he read out Boris Johnson’s memo.
In the rush to get Brexit done, incompatible promises were made in haste, which means that measures such as these regulations will keep on being introduced in order to make the system work. None the less, these Benches welcome these regulations because we believe they are a significant improvement on their previous requirement, as set out in the Northern Ireland protocol. They are a move towards a common-sense approach to these matters, allowing maximum freedom for pets between Great Britain and Northern Ireland, while recognising the need to maintain high biodiversity standards.
It is particularly welcome that the pet travel document will be valid for the lifetime of a pet, which I believe—indeed, I hope—will minimise the need for bureaucracy. However, I would like to follow the question asked by noble Lords from the DUP, although I will ask it in a slightly different way. It is about how these regulations will be enforced in practice. As I understand it, the pet owner will be obliged to confirm that the pet which has travelled from Great Britain to Northern Ireland will not then subsequently move to Ireland, and therefore the EU. However, given that there is no border on the island of Ireland, how will these provisions be checked and enforced in reality?
My second question is really one of curiosity: why are these regulations just limited to dogs, cats and ferrets? What happens to pets being transported from Great Britain to Northern Ireland that are not currently covered by these three categories? Perhaps there is a logical reason for it, but I am not quite sure what it is.