Intelligence and Security Committee of Parliament Report: Fusilier Lee Rigby

Debate between Baroness Stowell of Beeston and Marquess of Lothian

Tuesday 25th November 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

Religious bodies are excluded from the list of groups that will be bound by the Prevent measure that we are going to put on a statutory footing in the counterterrorism Bill because we are focusing on public bodies, and clearly religious faiths do not qualify in that area. That does not mean that all religious faiths do not have a responsibility to support us in preventing extremism and terrorism. Indeed, there is a wide range of different programmes, some of which are supported though the Department for Communities and Local Government. There is a lot of work going on in that area.

My noble friend asked about the Government’s response to the report being provided in January. Today, the Prime Minister’s Statement provided our initial response. The measures in the counterterrorism Bill being introduced tomorrow stem from two things: JTAC’s change of the security status earlier in the summer to the increased level that it is now and the creation of the extremism task force, which the Prime Minister put together following Lee Rigby’s death. The counterterrorism Bill contains measures that have been put together after careful thought and consideration. They are most definitely not a knee-jerk reaction to the ISC report published today.

[The Marquess of Lothian (Con)]

As one of your Lordships’ two representatives on the Intelligence and Security Committee, I welcome the commendation of our report by both the Government and the Opposition. I also welcome the announcement of further resources in this area, which is an important measure—although it is important to stress that such is the extent and pressure of the terrorist threat in this country at the moment that the prioritisation of threats to be dealt with by the agencies will have to continue.

I also make the point that despite the criticisms in this report of the agencies in regard to this particular case, on behalf of the committee I would like to commend our intelligence agencies for the sterling and tireless work they do in protecting all of us in this country from the threat of terrorism.

Finally, I raise a subject which has been raised before, which is what I call the capability gap in the agencies accessing communications from overseas communications service providers. Along with the measures that she has mentioned, I wonder whether the Minister would agree with me that in the end the United Kingdom has to use its influence with the United States through the exceptional co-operation on security between our two countries to find a final and lasting way to resolve this situation. Perhaps the Minister could say a word about what steps are being taken in that regard.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I am certainly grateful to my noble friend for echoing the support for the security services and the work that they do to keep all of us safe in this country. I would also like to take this opportunity to thank my noble friend for his work as a member of that committee. I know that the noble Lord, Lord Butler, from this House is also a member of the committee, and there are other Members of this House who have been previous members of that committee.

On my noble friend’s point about prioritisation still being necessary even in light of increased funding, that is right and will always be the case. There is a need for balancing prioritisation with not delaying the necessary steps. I quoted from the statement of the MI5 Director General in the Statement by the Prime Minister that I repeated. The security services do not have an army of people waiting to deploy; they have to use their resources all the time as best they see fit, and they are doing a very good job.

On the capability gap regarding communications service providers, which my noble friend mentioned, he is right that we have to use our influence at all levels and I can confirm to him and the House that that is happening right up to the highest level, including the Prime Minister with the President of the United States.

Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Bill

Debate between Baroness Stowell of Beeston and Marquess of Lothian

Tuesday 4th June 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

It is discriminatory now and we are not changing anything.

Some noble Lords expressed concern about the Bill’s impact on freedom of expression and freedom of conscience. Particular reference was made to whether teachers would be forced to promote same-sex marriage and be dismissed if they criticise it, whether employees will be barred from criticising same-sex marriage and whether registrars will have any choice but to conduct such marriages.

The position of teachers has been the subject of a lot of debate and scrutiny already in the other House. My right honourable friend Michael Gove, the Secretary of State for Education, who would like to think that he has the word “standards” stamped through him like a stick of rock, was clear in the evidence that he gave to the Public Bill Committee that there is a significant difference between a teacher explaining an issue and promoting or endorsing it. No teacher will be forced to promote or endorse same-sex marriage. Any teacher will continue to be able to state their own belief or that of their faith about same-sex marriage. However, teachers and schools will be expected to make clear as a matter of fact in teaching about marriage that the law in England and Wales enables same-sex couples to marry.

We do not consider that the Bill changes anything in this area and we are clear that the existing protections for teachers are sound. As I said yesterday, though, we are continuing to listen to, and discuss these concerns with, religious groups and others to ensure that we have done all we can to make those protections clear.

As for changing the Bill to ensure that employees cannot be dismissed or disciplined for criticising same-sex marriage, we do not consider that there is any need to do so. Indeed, there could be harm in making such an amendment by raising doubt in other areas, such as criticising homosexuality or civil partnerships. It is lawful to express a belief that marriage should be between a man and a woman, and it is lawful to do that whether at work or outside work. That is a belief that is protected under the religion or belief provisions of the Equality Act 2010, and penalising someone because of such a belief would be unlawful discrimination under that Act. This will still be the position once the Bill is enacted.

None the less, we have been considering what steps we can take to ensure that employers, and particularly public bodies, are completely clear about their responsibilities to respect the rights of people who believe that marriage should be between a man and a woman. With that in mind, the Equality and Human Rights Commission will be reviewing relevant guidance and statutory codes of practice to ensure that the position is completely clear.

On registrars, the Government remain of the view that public servants with statutory duties should not be able to exempt themselves from providing their services for same-sex couples.

Regarding the Government’s position on this important issue of same-sex marriage, at the moment those of us who love someone of the opposite sex can get married, and those of us who love someone of the same sex can be civilly partnered. In legal terms, there is little difference except in the way they are formed and the way they can be dissolved if that sadly becomes necessary. Yesterday I explained why marriage is important to us as a society. Others referred to it as a social good. We all agreed that the institution, the enterprise, the endeavour or whichever word we think best to describe it is a good thing, and that it is important. Some noble Lords, including the right reverend Prelates on the Bishops’ Bench, my noble friend Lady Cumberlege and others, have suggested that gay couples should have their own institution separate from marriage. My noble and learned friend Lord Mackay of Clashfern repeated that today, and made clear that he believes so on the grounds of procreation.

On the question of a separate institution, gay men and women already have their own institution called civil partnership. Like the Bill, the arrival of civil partnerships was a huge change. Unlike the Bill, which has 19 clauses, the Civil Partnership Act had 200 clauses and was contested strongly in debate in your Lordships’ House. After it was finally passed, same-sex couples had access to equal legal rights but they remained different. Marriage remained the preserve of couples made up of one man and one woman. It is the success of civil partnerships that has driven greater acceptance of same-sex couples. In an amazingly short space of time we hear people, including those who used to oppose them, say, “We can’t believe we were all so concerned at the time”. Civil partnerships have led many people—indeed, the majority—to say, “Do you know what? If civil partnership is marriage in all but name, why can’t gay men and lesbian women get married, if that’s what they want to do?”.

Another institution just for gay couples, as suggested by several noble Lords, is not going to make the demand for them to be able to get married go away. Another institution just for gay couples will not address the fundamental purposes at the heart of this Bill: the acceptance of gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender people for who they are, and the preservation of marriage itself as a vital institution to our society.

In his powerful contribution, my noble friend Lord Black said that legislation drives social change, and up to now the Civil Partnership Act has been the best example of that. As some noble Lords pointed out during the debate, positive social change, when it favours minority groups, is not by definition about numbers. In 2010 the Government made a commitment to push forward unequivocally for gay rights in the coalition agreement. The fact that three years later we are legislating for same-sex marriage reflects the accelerating acceptance of same-sex couples and the possibility that change is possible.

The Bill does not change the religious doctrine or beliefs of any religious organisation that does not want to change them. The Bill protects and promotes religious freedom. Outside of religion, though, gay couples want to marry and many straight couples want them to be able to. The majority of people are ready to open the door to marriage and to welcome those who want to commit publicly to their partner, because they see that they want to do so for all the same reasons as them.

The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Leicester asked yesterday,

“Do the gains of meeting the need of many LGBT people for the dignity and equality that identifying their partnerships as marriage gives outweigh the loss entailed as society moves away from a clear understanding of marriage as a desirable setting within which children are conceived and raised?”.—[Official Report, 3/6/13; col. 962.]

That may be a legitimate question for the church to ask itself when or if it ever considers whether to allow same-sex couples to marry. However, I would argue that, outside the church, people already understand that two gay men or two lesbian women marrying each other is the same as a man marrying a woman. They have accepted that it is okay for same-sex couples to marry and that them doing so will not redefine their own marriage, because they understand that gay men and women decide to enter a civil partnership for the same reason that a straight couple decide to marry. Same sex couples and opposite sex couples are different physically, but that which leads them to want the same is not different.

I urge this House to ensure that the protections that allow the church and other faiths to maintain their very legitimate belief in marriage being only between a man and a woman work properly. This House should also debate and scrutinise whether the Bill protects freedom of speech and freedom of expression; that is what we really need to ensure is the case. We need religious belief in marriage to sit comfortably alongside what the state allows in law, just as we already do for divorce, contraception and abortion. It is possible for us to allow something in law that not everyone agrees with and to respect our differences of view. The Bill, which allows same sex couples to marry, is, as I said at the very start of the debate yesterday, also about protecting and promoting religious freedom. I say again that, if further changes are necessary to make those protections clearer, the Government will consider doing so.

There have been many powerful speeches but I hope that noble Lords will forgive me, and that my noble friend Lord Jenkin will not be embarrassed, if I say that I thought that his was one of the best. He said better than I ever could that this Bill will not redefine marriage because it will not redefine his own of 60 years, which has provided mutual comfort and support.

Over the past two days, we have heard lots of views about what marriage means and we have all expressed ourselves differently, but we all unite on three points of principle: marriage is a serious commitment between two people; we think that the institution itself is vital to our society; and we respect and must protect religious freedom and freedom of speech. The Bill supports all three principles. I hope that your Lordships’ House, building on its tradition of supporting social change, will wish to affirm that the Bill should have its Second Reading here. I urge noble Lords who support the Bill, and those who remain unsure and so want it to be scrutinised in detail before they decide, not to accept the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Dear. If the noble Lord calls a Division, I urge all noble Lords to vote not content.

[The Marquess of Lothian]

There was a long discussion about the vote in the House of Commons being an all-party vote. I spent nearly 37 years there, and I know what is euphemistically called an all-party vote. I want my noble friend to assure the House tonight that when we are having a free vote in this House, it will be a genuinely free vote so far as the Conservative Members of this House are concerned, including Front-Bench Members.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

Of course. I am pleased to confirm that to my noble friend.

Equal Marriage Consultation

Debate between Baroness Stowell of Beeston and Marquess of Lothian

Tuesday 11th December 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I am grateful to the noble and right reverend Lord for making those points. I obviously note them, but I leave it to the church to comment on its own position on this matter.

[The Marquess of Lothian]

May I enter a slightly dissenting note in what otherwise appears to be a consensus? I fully accept the merits of civil partnership in our society, but are the Government aware that in moving towards this legislation, they will create two distinct and potentially divisive forms of marriage—statutory marriage on the one hand, which this legislation will create, and real marriage between a man and a woman on the other, which cannot be redefined by statute any more than night can be redefined as day by statute, or fiction as fact?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

There is only one form of marriage and what we are setting out here is that it will remain a matter for religious faiths as to how they define marriage within their own faith. There is only one legal type of marriage and that will apply both to couples of opposite sexes as well as to couples of the same sex.