House of Lords (Peerage Nominations) Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Stowell of Beeston and Lord Cormack

2nd reading
Friday 18th November 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, as always, it is a great pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Kerr of Kinlochard. I must begin by declaring an interest in that I am chairman of the Campaign for an Effective Second Chamber, which I founded with my noble friend Lord Norton—my very good friend—more than 20 years ago. That is what makes it such a very special pleasure to be able to speak in this debate to congratulate my noble friend and to say that although every Bill is capable of improvement, particularly by an experienced scrutinising body, this is a good start. I hope it will follow the other incremental reforms that have come out of the Campaign for an Effective Second Chamber, namely the Bill introduced by Lord Steel of Aikwood, which brought about provisions for retirement, and the Bill brought by the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman—a former distinguished Lord Speaker—which enabled us to take action and to expel those who had transgressed in very serious ways. I hope the Bill will come along.

I am afraid I did not have any text with LOL in it, any more than the noble Lord, Lord Leigh of Hurley, did, but I had a very good conversation with David Cameron when he rang me. I was delighted to be invited, but I said, “I will be a working Peer. I will come all the time. But I must say that I will regard it as my duty to exercise independent judgment and therefore to vote as I think appropriate.” He said, “Well, you’ve always done that in the other place, so I can’t really ask you to behave differently.” I have taken that as my licence ever since I got here and will continue to do so, because it is the duty of your Lordships’ House to examine critically, to ask the other place to think again and, if necessary—this is the ultimate, and we have not done it since I came here—to give a Bill a whole year before it can come back. There might be one before us at the moment where we have to take that sort of action.

I digress. It is very important that attendance accompanies membership. I would go further than many and say that unless a Member, without good reason or cause, such as serious illness, bereavement or whatever, puts in 20% attendance in the course of a year, he or she should be disqualified from being a Member of your Lordships’ House. You cannot be an effective member of a body unless you attend it fairly regularly and play a real part.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston (Con)]

Will my noble friend give way?

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[Lord Cormack (Con)]

I cannot, really, because there is no time.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston (Con)]

My noble friend is very kind. What he is asking for with a commitment to attendance, which I have some support for too, is something we could deal with through our internal procedures. That is not beyond our existing powers to implement now. Now that we also have the power to disqualify on grounds that we might consider fit, we can do all these things.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

I will take a minute’s injury time for that. I will not respond because my noble friend, for whom I have a high regard, misses the point. It is very important that we move forward here.

What has disturbed me more than anything has been the cavalier disregard for the constitution by Prime Minister Johnson, amounting almost to a trashing of it. It is very important that a Prime Minister has an ethics adviser and follows their advice. It is very important that we have an appointments commission on a statutory basis. The Prime Minister is in no sense prevented from making nominations but he should listen to the advice of that appointments commission.

My greatest concern of all is the position of the monarch. We have a new King. We must not put him in an invidious position, because he is the fount of honour. He has to award peerages on a recommendation. We should have a real sensitive regard for his position, just as we must listen to what the noble Lord, Lord Butler of Brockwell, said. When we get this Bill in Committee, which I hope we will, we must try to make sure that there is no opportunity for the courts to be dragged in. That is very important.

Like the noble Lord, Lord Kerr of Kinlochard, I took issue with my very good friend, the noble Lord, Lord Fowler, and his letter to the Times. To say that there is broad consensus for an elected senate is not right. To have an elected senate with 400 people elected and 100 appointed will create two problems: first, the clash with the other place by the elected people; and secondly, the 100 who would inevitably be regarded as second-class Members. That is not a good idea.

When my very good friend the Minister comes to reply, I hope she will say that the Government will assist the progress of the Bill through Committee so that it can be critically examined and go to the other place. I think, like the noble Lord, Lord Butler, that it would then stand a real chance of going on to the statute book.

Outcome of the EU Referendum

Debate between Baroness Stowell of Beeston and Lord Cormack

Monday 27th June 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

As I have already said, clearly it is very important that Parliament has a role in this process, but at this time I am not able to specify what that role is.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, does my noble friend accept that an enormous responsibility lies on the shoulders of the members of the Conservative Party in this country? They will be choosing not only a leader of the party but effectively a Prime Minister. Therefore, is it not crucial that they take into account the qualities of those who may be on offer, bearing in mind that we need a steadying hand on the tiller and someone who has the gift of statesmanship, and that the gifts of demagogy are not necessarily the same as the attributes of statesmanship?

European Council

Debate between Baroness Stowell of Beeston and Lord Cormack

Monday 22nd February 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

No, I am afraid I do not agree with the noble Lord’s description of who benefits most, Europe or us, from the relationship. I shall not take up time rattling through all the statistics, but I say this to the noble Lord: in the end, it is about what is of greater benefit to all of us—to the UK and to the rest of Europe. As a trading bloc, we all benefit from the UK being in the European Union. It is not just about how we benefit in this country—although we do. As for the noble Lord’s questions about sovereignty, I refer him to what I said to my noble friend Lord Lawson. I really do disagree with what he says about that.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, as we begin four months of campaigning, should we not just gently reflect that the most publicly apparent achievement of eight years of amusing, dynamic, flamboyant leadership in London has been gridlock?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

No, I do not agree with my noble friend.

European Union: United Kingdom Renegotiation

Debate between Baroness Stowell of Beeston and Lord Cormack

Thursday 4th February 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I think so.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, as is clear from the exchanges today, and yesterday in another place, many parliamentarians want to play a vigorous part in the forthcoming referendum campaign. Can the Minister guarantee that the timetable of the two Houses will be arranged so that there are not impossible clashes, and there is a proper opportunity for parliamentarians on both sides to conduct an elevated and proper campaign?

House of Lords: Strathclyde Review

Debate between Baroness Stowell of Beeston and Lord Cormack

Thursday 17th December 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

Like the noble Baroness, and as I have already said, I feel very strongly and care passionately about this House having the right to scrutinise and challenge the Government and to do what it is here to do as far as primary and secondary legislation, and policy more generally, are concerned. I welcome what she said about my noble friend’s report.

However, by her contribution she has also illustrated what I am trying to say to the House. I do not want to debate the substance of the policy, because we are talking now about procedures. Back in October, the noble Baroness was at pains to tell the House that her amendment was not a fatal Motion but that it would allow the Government to think again. But it was never established in fact that what she was doing did not amount to a fatal Motion—we were in disagreement about it. There is no definition of these things in the Companion. We have a choice: we either withhold our consent or we give our consent. It was not possible for this House, using the method that the noble Baroness chose, to ask the Government or the House of Commons to think again, because we do not have that facility. We either approve or we do not.

If the noble Baroness is arguing for this House to be able to ask the House of Commons to think again, my noble friend Lord Strathclyde, in his paper, is suggesting a way which would provide the very thing that the noble Baroness is arguing for today and argued for back in October.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords—

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[Lord Cormack]

My Lords, I am most grateful. I am sure we are all grateful to my noble friend for what she has said, but I would ask her two things. First, it is right that we should have a full and extensive debate. However, as this report has been produced on the eve of the Christmas Recess, can we have a week or two after we come back where we can talk together informally, across the House, and then have a well-informed debate? Secondly, can that debate be informed by the fact that it is the Government who are answerable to Parliament—not the other way round—and by the fact that we are in this mess largely because of the appallingly inefficient way in which the other place deals with secondary legislation? It is therefore crucial—I ask my noble friend to talk to her colleagues in Cabinet about this—that the other place also debates this matter in detail, so that we have a more satisfactory balance in the way both Houses look at secondary legislation.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

As my noble friend may not have had an opportunity to study my noble friend Lord Strathclyde’s report, he might not yet have spotted that it includes a reference to the other place and its role in secondary legislation. My right honourable friend the Leader of the House of Commons is also making a Statement today in the other place about this same topic.

As for when we will schedule the debate in January, clearly we will have to consider the timetabling of it alongside other matters when we return. However, my main commitment to this House is that there will be a substantial debate; it will be in government time; and we will do so early in the new year.

Rugby World Cup 2015

Debate between Baroness Stowell of Beeston and Lord Cormack

Wednesday 11th November 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords—

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Stowell of Beeston) (Con)]

My Lords, I am so sorry to intervene. It is actually the turn of the Conservative Benches, which we have not heard from. While I am on my feet, I remind noble Lords that we are now starting to get very lengthy in the questions that we are asking. I would pay particular attention to some of the original supplementaries that are being asked.

[Lord Cormack]

My Lords, does my noble friend agree that a little goes a very long way in the field of heritage? To a cathedral needing maintenance, £250,000 means a vast amount; it is a tiny drop in the ocean. Would she convey that message to the Chancellor before the spending round is announced?

House of Lords: Membership

Debate between Baroness Stowell of Beeston and Lord Cormack

Monday 7th September 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

The noble Lord points to something which was in the coalition agreement. We are no longer in coalition; this is a Conservative Government and we therefore stand by what was in the Conservative manifesto. I have already made clear my view on the size of the House. The noble Lord directs an interesting point to the Liberal Democrat Benches.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, could not the noble Lord, Lord Rennard, and his colleagues lead by example? Believing, as they do, in proportional representation, and having just been inflated into the most unrepresentative party in this House, if he and 40 of his colleagues took retirement, under the advantages of the 2014 Act, then the problem would at least begin to be addressed.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My noble friend is using me as a channel to ask questions to the Liberal Democrat Benches. He is quite right that we are all responsible for the effectiveness of this House and making sure that that happens.

House of Lords: Membership

Debate between Baroness Stowell of Beeston and Lord Cormack

Tuesday 21st July 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

But the Bill did not succeed in making its way out of the House of Commons. The manifesto that we stood on at the last election said that we would not seek to introduce comprehensive reform at this time, and it was on that manifesto that we won the general election.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords—

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[Lord Cormack]

The Question came from the Cross Benches.

I am sure we appreciate the thoughtful way in which my noble friend has sought to answer these questions. I have the honour of chairing the group to which the noble Earl referred. We hope to produce a report that the House can consider later in the year. Will the Leader give an assurance that that will be taken seriously into account by the Government if it makes constructive proposals?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I say to my noble friend and the House as a whole what I have already said: we should take advantage of this period of stability. If proposals come forward that are workable and attract consensus, I am all ears and will listen very carefully to what noble Lords put forward.

English Votes on English Laws

Debate between Baroness Stowell of Beeston and Lord Cormack

Thursday 2nd July 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I do not want to comment on the processes of voting in the other place, but I do not think that they are getting as far as electronic voting. I am very grateful to the noble Lord for his warm welcome of what the Government are bringing forward today and agree with the points that he made in his contribution.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, anyone who believes in the integrity of the union will recognise that what is being proposed has profound implications. All I would say to my noble friend—who has presented the Government’s Statement entirely properly—is that this House should have an opportunity to debate something that has profound constitutional implications for the future of the union. Even if we had to sit one day later in July, surely we could have a proper debate. There is a great deal of expertise and experience in this House and it would hardly damage what is being proposed if it were thoroughly examined and scrutinised in the way that legislation is in your Lordships’ House.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My noble friend is a very experienced parliamentarian, but I really am not sure that I agree that, at this stage, this is something that requires this House to debate it. Before rising for the summer, the House of Commons will have a debate on changes to its own Standing Orders. Presumably, it will divide and decide on that. As I say, the procedures and powers in this House will not change. If that were to be the case, and something were to be different in the future, I would clearly reconsider the answer that I have given to my noble friend.

Parliament: Conventions

Debate between Baroness Stowell of Beeston and Lord Cormack

Monday 2nd March 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

The noble Lord is absolutely right. The fact that we are an unelected Chamber right now does not in any way diminish the important work that we exist to do. In revising and scrutinising legislation, we give the public confidence in the laws that Parliament makes.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for what she has said, but if we are to have continuing amicable relations with another place, for which we all hope, it is not very helpful if another place peremptorily kills off a Bill that has been fairly exhaustively debated in this place, as it did last Friday. It might well be that some us think we should flex our muscles on a Bill that came from the other place.

EU Council

Debate between Baroness Stowell of Beeston and Lord Cormack

Monday 23rd February 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

The report, to which the noble Lord refers, by the European Union Committee of this House was a comprehensive, serious piece of work. I was grateful to study it over the weekend; I thought that its publication was timely.

As for a debate on it, the usual process is for the Committee Office to respond to my noble friend the Chief Whip’s usual call out for what proposals it wants debated, so we would expect to hear in the first instance through the Committee Office, but my noble friend will of course want to liaise constructively.

The main thing about Europe, Ukraine and threats to others is that, yes, absolutely, we must be united; we must have a united force strength against Putin. Putin wants us to appear not to be united. We must present a united front. That is there. Via NATO, we are committed to protecting the Baltic states, should there be any attempt to threaten them in future.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, I wish to follow up the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Soley. I ask my noble friend, as Leader of this House, to ensure that we have a debate on the report and the wider situation. This is the gravest international situation that we have had in years. This Parliament will come to an end in four or five weeks’ time. It would be quite wrong—indeed, shameful—if this House, with all its expertise, did not have the opportunity for a full day’s debate. Will my noble friend absolutely guarantee that that will happen?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I can absolutely guarantee that if the committee, having produced its report, proposes a debate on that report via the Committee Office in the normal way, we will find time for it. We will find time for debates on committee reports, because we are committed to doing that. I urge the noble Lord and other members of the committee to make their request via the Committee Office in the normal way.

Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011

Debate between Baroness Stowell of Beeston and Lord Cormack

Tuesday 27th January 2015 Lords Chamber

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Stowell of Beeston) (Con)]

My Lords, we have plenty of time. When two noble Lords stand up, perhaps one of them could be courteous to the other and decide to give way.

[Lord Cormack]

My Lords, I am most grateful to my noble friend Lord Tyler. As one who fought all the elections to which my noble friend the Minister referred, will he accept that those of us with that sort of experience have evaluated? We do not need to wait until 2020. This is a disservice to the constitution and the sooner it is consigned to the legislative rubbish tip the better.

House of Lords: Governance

Debate between Baroness Stowell of Beeston and Lord Cormack

Tuesday 20th January 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I am sorry the noble Lord feels that I did not respond to the questions that were put to me during that debate, as I felt that I gave a very comprehensive response to the points that were raised. It is not that long ago since we considered the role of the Lord Speaker. As I have just said, we debated it, there was a Division and the House made clear its view on the matter.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, fundamental to the Question of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, is the relationship between the two Houses. While it is crucial that we continue to recognise the constitutional supremacy of the other place, we do not have to recognise its geographical or territorial supremacy. Therefore, it is very important indeed that this House is equal with the other when we are talking about joint services.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My noble friend is absolutely right. To be absolutely clear, some joint services are already operating between this House and the other place. The joint procurement service is the most recent example of this—through that joint procurement service we have already achieved some significant savings and ensured that the service provided remains effective and operates well. However, my noble friend is right: when we look at other possibilities of services being shared, we have to ensure that we do not end up being in any way subordinate to the House of Commons.

Select Committee Reports: Government Responses

Debate between Baroness Stowell of Beeston and Lord Cormack

Tuesday 13th January 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

The decision on when to hold a debate about a Select Committee report is taken very much as part of a discussion between the Whips’ Office and the Committee Office. Some Select Committees decide to hold their debates before they have had a response from the Government and some decide that they want to wait until after the Government have responded. There is no hard and fast rule on that.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, will my noble friend, as Leader of this House, tell her Cabinet colleagues that we feel that many of them do not take this House seriously enough and do not pay enough attention to what this House says either in reports or on the Floor of the House?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I would like to think that, in the responses that I have already given to some of the questions today, I have demonstrated that the Government have taken the reports from Select Committees very seriously. There has been action as a result of them. So far as concerns my colleagues in government giving evidence to committees, last year alone nine Cabinet Ministers gave evidence to Select Committees of this House, including the Chancellor, the Home Secretary, the Justice Secretary, the Deputy Prime Minister, the Scotland Secretary, the Transport Secretary and the Environment Secretary. Tomorrow the Home Secretary and the Justice Secretary together will give evidence to a Select Committee here. We take this House very seriously, and we are right to do so because the work of the Select Committees is excellent, as is demonstrated all the time.

Implications of Devolution for England

Debate between Baroness Stowell of Beeston and Lord Cormack

Tuesday 16th December 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

As the noble Lord knows, what we have done in this Parliament and through this Government is given greater power to local authorities in terms of control of their own finances. They are now in a much greater position than they were before to make the kind of steps that are about real change in their approach to providing services for local authorities.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, would not my noble friend accept that with three months left of this Parliament and a general election, with all the frenetic atmosphere that goes with it, this is no time to rush a constitutional settlement? The constitution is not the possession of any party: it is the responsibility of us all. I urge my noble friend, while I agree with my noble friend Lord Lang that it is good that there are options in this paper, not to attempt to rush pell-mell before the general election. In the calm—I trust—atmosphere that will follow, we have to try to reach a solution where we do not have two classes of Member of Parliament at the other end of the corridor.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My Lords, my noble friend was a Member of the other place and I was not, but there are already two classes of MPs in the other place. We have at the moment MPs for Scottish constituencies who are not able to vote on matters that affect their constituents, but they are able to vote on matters that affect people in England. We feel that this is a fundamental matter of fairness. It is not something that we are rushing into. This issue has been around for a long time. Five reports have been published on how to address this very important matter over the past 15 years. In the past few weeks, we have done some further thinking and put forward some options. I urge all noble Lords interested in this to come forward with their views—but this is something that it is now right to address.

Ukraine (Shooting Down of MH17) and Gaza

Debate between Baroness Stowell of Beeston and Lord Cormack

Monday 21st July 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

The current calls for Russia to de-escalate and the sanctions that we are putting in place are in response to Russian activity in Ukraine, which predates last week’s incident. It would be wrong of the noble Lord to suggest that all our efforts being made now are only on the back of the terrible crime committed on Thursday. What happened on Thursday has focused minds, but it has not led to the start of our demands for Russia to take all the necessary steps to withdraw from its aggression in Ukraine.

As for what President Putin said in response to my right honourable friend, I do not have details of that. I can say to the noble Lord that clearly the conversation that the Prime Minister had with President Putin has had some influence. Thankfully and finally, we are starting to see some co-operation from the separatists in Ukraine to help ensure that the bodies there are treated with the dignity and respect that they deserve, that the right authorities are properly able to do their job, and that we can get to the bottom of just what happened.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, building upon the wise words of my noble friend a moment ago and on the extremely sensible comments of the noble Lord, Lord West, does my noble friend accept that if we are not sensible we shall drift into another cold war from which no one will benefit? Could we not ask the Secretary-General of the United Nations to summon a special conference of all the parties to address the Ukrainian situation: to ensure the territorial integrity of Ukraine, a proper recognition of the legitimate interests of Russia, and an end to this drift—as I say—into a new cold war?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My noble friend is right to raise the United Nations. I repeat what I have already said: the UK is playing a leading role to secure UN action. There is a meeting of the UN tonight. There is an Australian-led draft resolution, which the United Kingdom very much supports. Along with Australia, we have accelerated discussions on this, which welcomes a Ukrainian-led investigation, containing strong language on access to, and dignity in dealing with, the bodies and incorporating tougher UK language from the draft press statement.

Leader of the House: Cabinet Membership

Debate between Baroness Stowell of Beeston and Lord Cormack

Wednesday 16th July 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I would emphasise to the noble Baroness and to all noble Lords that I shall sit around the same Cabinet table and participate fully in its discussions in exactly the same way as all my predecessors did. It will be a great privilege to do so. As to her question about the salary that the post attracts, I can assure the House that careful consideration is being given to the propriety of any arrangement.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, what is at stake here is not the status of my noble friend but the status of this House.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I can tell my noble friend that I believe that we have a duty to uphold the reputation of the House as a serious and distinguished institution that serves the public interest. That is what we will be judged on and that is what I intend to do. I hope that I have the support of all noble Lords in fulfilling that responsibility.

Business Rates

Debate between Baroness Stowell of Beeston and Lord Cormack

Wednesday 11th June 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I am glad to hear that the noble Lord is not intending to introduce business rates for farmers. I am sure they will be very pleased to hear that.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

With reference to the question asked by my noble friend Lord Forsyth, surely it would be right for the Government to look again at online retailing. Shops in the high street bring life to our communities; online retailing spells death for them.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

Both my noble friends make an important point about the increase in online shopping, which is the new way in which people are spending their money and doing their shopping. It is important for us to introduce measures that support high streets and town centres, and that is what we are doing. Alongside these changes in business rates, we are making changes to reduce burdens on parking and making sure that town centres and high streets thrive. We have to be able to combine what we are doing on business rates with other measures that are particularly targeted at high streets.

Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Bill

Debate between Baroness Stowell of Beeston and Lord Cormack

Monday 24th June 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cormack]

My Lords, it seems to me that adding the amendment to the Bill can do no harm to anyone and give reassurance to many. In that context, I hope my noble friend Lady Stowell will be able to give a reply that shows she understands why the right reverend Prelate introduced the amendment and why a number of us feel that he was entirely justified in so doing.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I am grateful to the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Leicester for introducing his amendment and also for quoting me from December of last year when I repeated the statement of my right honourable friend the Secretary of State when the Government published their response to the consultation. I actually remember what I said to him that day about the Bill, as we intended at that time, not being designed to change society but to reflect society as it is changing. I stand by that statement in response to his question that day. I hope that I can reassure him and other noble Lords that the protections already exist to allow people to express a perfectly legitimate belief that marriage should be only between a man and a woman.

I know what my noble friend Lord Cormack has just said but I think it is important for me to stress again that that is an absolutely legitimate belief. People have the absolute right to express that belief and such a religious or philosophical belief is a protected belief under Article 9 of the European Convention on Human Rights and under the Equality Act 2010 itself. I am sure from the contribution he made in earlier debates that if the noble Lord, Lord Lester, was here he would also refer to the Human Rights Act and quote,

“so far as it is possible to do so, primary legislation and subordinate legislation must be read and given effect in a way which is compatible with the Convention rights”.

Perhaps more significantly in this context, Section 13 provides:

“If a court’s determination of any question arising under this Act might affect the exercise by a religious organisation (itself or its members collectively) of the Convention right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion, it must have particular regard to the importance of that right”.

There is therefore no doubt at all that belief that marriage should only be between a man and a woman is both legitimate, as I have said, and mainstream. I hope that from the debates we have had already on this topic during Committee, and my responses to them, I am able to reassure noble Lords. However, I will go over some of the key points again in response to the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Leicester.

Our commitment to protecting the right of people to believe that marriage should be of one man with one woman was demonstrated in particular, as he has acknowledged, by the Government’s amendment to the Public Order Act 1986, which the House agreed last week. This puts beyond doubt that offences regarding stirring up hatred on the grounds of sexual orientation do not outlaw the reasonable expression of the view that marriage should be between a man and a woman. We were able to insert this clarificatory wording in that case because it amends an existing avoidance of doubt provision. There was therefore no risk that it might cast doubt on whether the reasonable expression of other views might amount to hate crime.

However, that is not the case with this amendment. This amendment would open up uncertainty as to whether discussion or criticism of other matters, such as civil partnerships or homosexuality in general, might of themselves constitute unlawful discrimination or harassment under the Equality Act 2010. However, as I have said, we recognise and agree that there is a need to ensure that employers and public authorities do not misinterpret or misapply their responsibilities in this regard. That is why we have committed to working with the Equality and Human Rights Commission to ensure that its statutory codes of practice and guidance in this area are as clear as possible. During the debate on Amendment 13 on the public sector equality duty, I undertook to write to the noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, to set out how the provisions contained in the Equality Act 2010 will provide adequate protections for religious organisations and individuals, and why the equality duty cannot be used to penalise those who do not agree with same-sex marriage.

I understand the concern that has been expressed by the right reverend Prelate and understand the points that have been made by my noble friend Lord Cormack. However, I do not think that I can be any clearer than I have been today, and in response to previous debates, in making the point that it remains absolutely legitimate for people to have that belief and it remains absolutely legitimate for them to be able to express that belief. The Bill as we have drafted it protects the religious freedoms of faiths that want to maintain their existing belief in marriage being between a man and a woman. I hope that, with my restating all these points, the right reverend Prelate will feel able to withdraw his amendment.

Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Bill

Debate between Baroness Stowell of Beeston and Lord Cormack

Monday 22nd April 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cormack]

My Lords, whether it is a runner wearing a black ribbon in a marathon or a coffin draped in the Union flag, there is a real and proper place for symbolism. If this is all that we are debating, why on earth are we removing this particular symbol? In our last debate at Report, I abstained, feeling slightly guilty, I have to admit. One reason I abstained was that the commission had not come out with a clear, unequivocal statement such as has been quoted by the noble Baroness from the opposition Front Bench this evening. If the commission believes that having this symbolic duty does not retard its work or its progress, and if it believes that it is a declaration—and there is room for the declaratory as well as the symbolic—and that this is helpful to its work, with all the respect that I have for the noble Baroness, Lady O’Neill, and all the belief that I have in her capacity and competence, I can think only that she and her colleagues can be helped.

I wish we had no need for such a commission; I am sure we all wish that. It is one body that we would like to see work itself out of a job. Unfortunately, society as it is means that there is a need. If there is a need, there is a need to define. If there is a need to define, there is a need to say, in broad and simple terms, what the commission should be for and what it should be doing.

I admire greatly the noble Baroness, Lady Campbell. We know it is not easy for her to address this House. She does so with courage and most articulately. The case that she made this evening and that was so ably backed by the noble Lord, Lord Low of Dalston—we are pleased to see him back from his recent operation—was frankly an unanswerable case. I have to say to my noble friend who will respond to this debate: why? What is the point? What is the purpose? There are occasions when a Government have to fight for something that may be unpopular. I have gone into the Lobbies supporting Governments fighting for things that have been unpopular for over 40 years. Nevertheless, this is asked for by those bodies with which the commission has regular dealings. It is not going to add to the sum from the public purse. It is not going to obstruct the commission in the specific duties which it has to follow. So what is the point and what is the purpose of doing this?

In following up a point made by the noble Lord, Lord Low of Dalston, I have also to say that the other place, of which I was proud to be a Member for 40 years, has not exactly examined this matter with critical care and scrutiny. It has given it a quick turnover and sent it back. Well, at the end of the day, the view of the Commons, as the elected House, prevails; that is my constitutional view. However, I think we have to say to it again, “Look, you have got this wrong. Including this section is not going to impede the Government in their work. It is not going to do any damage to your economic strategy. It is not going to do any damage to your social strategy. What it is going to do is to give the commission what it believes to be helpful and necessary on what those bodies which deal with the commission believe the commission should have”.

I did abstain last time; I shall not abstain tonight. I hope that we can send a clear signal to the other place that it should back down, come off it and do something sensible.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My Lords, I am grateful for all contributions to this debate, and I mean that quite sincerely. As I respond, I am very conscious of the strength of opinion that has been expressed in your Lordships’ House this evening.

I will start by responding to a point raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Campbell of Surbiton, in response to my remark about us all wanting the commission to be as effective as it can be so that it is respected by everyone. I want to clarify what I mean by that because I think there are two separate issues here. One concerns the ICC’s status, or the commission’s A status being conferred on it by the ICC, and any suggestion that that is at risk. I reassure the House that the Government have had ongoing discussions with the ICC. I know that the chairman of the commission—the noble Baroness, Lady O’Neill—is continuing her dialogue with the ICC. The non-legislative changes that we have made around the budget and the framework document all strengthen the situation with regard to its status. I do not think that that is at risk. In talking about respect, I was trying to get at a slightly different point in that I want the Equality and Human Rights Commission to be respected not just by those of us who automatically take very seriously equality and human rights but also by those who do not. In order for us to create the kind of society that we are talking about in this context, we need the commission to be supported by everyone.

That takes me to another point that the noble Baroness, Lady Campbell, raised, and was echoed by my noble friend Lady Hussein-Ece, on the origins of Section 3 and the general duty. Today marks 20 years since the tragic murder of Stephen Lawrence. I cannot express to the House how much respect I have for Doreen Lawrence, who had to suffer the murder of her son for progress to be made in this country on some equality issues. That is beyond words. I pay tribute to everything that she has achieved and wish that she had not had to suffer in the way that she did in order to achieve what she has. However, I say with the greatest respect to the noble Baroness, Lady Campbell, and others who referred to the death of Stephen Lawrence in the context of the general duty, that that tragedy resulted in the introduction of the public sector equality duties in the Equality Act 2010. That terrible event did not result specifically in Section 3 and it is important to be clear on that point.

The noble Baroness, Lady Campbell, referred to reporting and monitoring. It is clear that the general duty then becomes a practical issue because the Act states that the commission is required to monitor that general duty and report on it. The noble Baroness suggested that by changing the monitoring requirements the commission would no longer be able to hold up a mirror to society and would be able only to hold up a mirror to itself in terms of what was happening when it produced its reports. I absolutely disagree with that. In my opening remarks, I made it clear that the new monitoring requirements would allow the commission to continue to hold up a mirror to society. It is our view that the new monitoring requirements will lead to a much more focused report, which we hope will have greater value for Parliament and other bodies that may want to refer to it.

The noble Lord, Lord Low, asked whether, in the absence of Section 3, the commission might be more open to judicial review as regards its work under Sections 8 and 9. The commission has never raised this concern in its briefings on the duty. We have no reason to think that the detailed and clear duties in Sections 8 and 9 would be made any more vulnerable by the removal of the general duty.

The noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, mentioned the advice given by Sir Bob Hepple and the Government’s response to his view. I say two things to the noble and learned Lord. First, at earlier stages of the Bill, we heard from the noble Lord, Lord Lester, a contrary view to that expressed by Sir Bob Hepple about the role of Section 3. Further, in our view, there is no indication that Section 3 has any interpretative value in relation to any other legislation, including the Equality Act 2010 and the Human Rights Act 1998.

The noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, and others pointed to the commission’s recent briefing and its statement that it supports maintaining the position established by the Lords for retaining its general duty. In response, I acknowledge that that is what the commission has said publicly and I understand and respect that view. However, in the same briefing paper it has also made it clear that removing the general duty would not affect the commission’s ability to do its work. On those matters, it is worth making it clear again that by removing the general duty we are not preventing the commission doing any of its very important and good work. It will not lose any of its vital powers of promoting equality, tackling discrimination and promoting human rights. As I have already said, when it comes to monitoring, producing quinquennial reviews in future should lead to it providing something more analytical and of greater value to those who want to use it as reference.

As I said when I first stood up, I am very aware of the strength of views expressed around this House. This is an issue where the noble Baroness, Lady Campbell, supported by all those who spoke tonight, feels differently from the Government. I have tried to set out again why the Government feel that this change will lead to a stronger Equality and Human Rights Commission, which is what we really want. When we come on to the next discussion about caste discrimination I will be able to reflect how important the role of the Equality and Human Rights Commission is. I ask your Lordships to agree with the Commons in their disagreement of the Lords amendment and the noble Baroness to withdraw her Motion

Equal Marriage Consultation

Debate between Baroness Stowell of Beeston and Lord Cormack

Tuesday 11th December 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

There is only one form of marriage and what we are setting out here is that it will remain a matter for religious faiths as to how they define marriage within their own faith. There is only one legal type of marriage and that will apply both to couples of opposite sexes as well as to couples of the same sex.

[Lord Cormack]

My Lords, notwithstanding what was said by the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries, and my noble friend Lord Deben, the fact is that for the majority of Christians in this country, at the heart of their religious belief is the belief that marriage is between a man and a woman. In that context, can the Minister assure us, first, that the 500,000 people who signed the petition that was reported in today’s press will be taken into account? Secondly, will she assure us that every member of Her Majesty’s Government, as well as Back-Benchers, will have a free vote on this issue?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I have tried to make clear that in bringing forward our proposals we recognise and respect the religious freedoms of those who are committed to their faith and the position that their respective faiths take with regard to marriage. Perhaps it is worth reminding my noble friend that the consultation was about how we bring about same-sex marriage and not about whether we should. The huge response was the largest that we have ever had to a consultation. In the consultation document that has been published today, we are very clear that in addition to the 228,000 who responded many others signed their names to a petition. We are firmly of the view that we are moving forward in the right way and taking account of everyone’s position on this. On my noble friend’s final point, I can confirm again that it will be a free vote.

Protests: Tent Pitching

Debate between Baroness Stowell of Beeston and Lord Cormack

Thursday 3rd November 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cormack]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they will introduce emergency legislation to make pitching a tent in a non-designated public space, or on a public thoroughfare, a criminal offence.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My Lords, the Government brought forward provisions in the Police Reform and Social Responsibility Act 2011 which allow local authorities to attach the power of seizure to their by-laws for encampments on local authority land. These provisions will be commenced shortly. It is therefore not necessary to introduce emergency legislation. Protests on private land are the landowner’s responsibility but the Government are looking at existing laws to consider whether any additional measures are needed to deal with such encampments.

[Lord Cormack]

My Lords, in thanking my noble friend for replying, I welcome her to the Dispatch Box and wish her many happy and successful years there. But perhaps I may also ask her if she will rethink part of that Answer. Will she impress upon the Government that we are facing a potentially disastrous situation? Next year, extra millions of people will come to this country for the Olympics and the Cultural Olympiad. They will come to admire our great public buildings and open spaces, not to see squalid encampments. It is essential that the Government take effective action to prevent what happened at St Paul’s three weeks ago happening in other places, thereby defacing the very image of this country next year.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for his remarks; he has for many years been a leading figure in debates on matters such as this, both in the other place and in this House. The point that has to be made—my noble friend the Minister made it last week when answering a similar Question—is that protests on private land are the responsibility of the landowner. However, as my noble friend the Minister also said last week, and as I said in my original Answer to the noble Lord, the Government are looking at existing laws and considering whether any additional measures are needed.

Procedure of the House: Select Committee Report

Debate between Baroness Stowell of Beeston and Lord Cormack

Monday 27th June 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My Lords, I welcome the report and its limited recommendation. I see it as a positive step forward. I understand the decision to make only changes that do not require primary legislation at this time, but I hope that, as part of the scrutiny of House of Lords reform, or via some other mechanism, further and more far-reaching changes can be made.

I am concerned, especially if we are to remain an unelected Chamber that we respond adequately to the modern expectations people have of us as public servants. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Parekh, about redundancy payments and that access to the Library and other facilities is a huge privilege. Because of that, I am disappointed that all Members granted leave of absence and permanent retirement will be treated equally and will continue to benefit from access rights. Attendance and participation in the legislative process is a privilege but it is what we as Peers are appointed to do. To people outside the Chamber, that is our job. Where else can someone decide not to do their job any more but retain the perks associated with it? On access to the Palace and its facilities, it seems wrong to me that those who have not bothered to fulfil their responsibilities to the House will be treated in the same way as those who have served the House well for a long time and have decided to retire for honourable reasons. Will the matter be reviewed again in another forum?

On a separate matter, Paragraph 63 of the Leader’s Group report recommended that,

“in future the honour of a life peerage should not automatically entail appointment to membership of the House, which should be reserved to those who are willing to make a significant commitment to public service in Parliament”.

I wholeheartedly support that recommendation, believing that if we are to remain unelected, there must be a clear set of expectations for Peers both in terms of attendance and active engagement, with penalties if a Peer fails to meet those expectations. Will my noble friend say whether the Joint Committee on reform of the House of Lords will consider options such as this?

[Lord Cormack]

My Lords, I was not going to say anything but I have been slightly provoked into doing so by my noble friend Lady Stowell of Beeston. It is very dangerous to talk of membership of this House as being a job. It is not a job; it is a calling to public service. It is also very dangerous to talk in terms of attendance as measuring the effectiveness or otherwise of a Member of your Lordships’ House. There are so many Members in this place—it was a sub-theme of our debate last week that this was the case—who are here because of what they have achieved outside and because of the knowledge, experience and expertise that they can bring to our proceedings. That is the essence of your Lordships’ House.

Noble Lords will know that I do not wish to see significant change in the manner of composition of this House. I, of course, accept that the number of Members is an issue and I welcome the thoughtful and constructive comments of my noble friend Lord Hunt and his committee. Clearly these things have to be examined by all of us. It has to be recognised that at some time each one of us should seek leave of absence. It is not retirement, nor should it be provided with a consolation prize of dining rights and Library access, even though it might, as a courtesy, be good to have that. We have to face up to these issues. We certainly should not be dictated to by arbitrary retirement ages. There are those in the House, far, far, older than I, who make a magnificent contribution to our proceedings, sometimes regularly and sometimes less so, but when they speak the House listens. One has only to cite the example of the remarkable speech last week of the noble Baroness, Lady Boothroyd, to illustrate that fact. This is an issue that must be dealt with extremely carefully and sensitively. Please let none of us be seduced into talking of our presence here as holding a job.

Fixed-term Parliaments Bill

Debate between Baroness Stowell of Beeston and Lord Cormack

Tuesday 15th March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cormack]

I make one brief point following the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Martin. Surely in a coalition Government the Prime Minister could not do what his partner, the Deputy Prime Minister, did not wish him to do. So why are we here?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I want to repeat a point I made on Second Reading, which does not seem to have been raised so far today. I do not bring any preconceived ideological support for fixed-term Parliaments. The Bill is a positive step to address the lack of public confidence in the political system. One of the points I made on Second Reading, which is the most powerful reason to support the Bill, is that it would ensure that the Government and the Opposition had to face the electorate on a predetermined date, whatever the political conditions are at that time. That is the most compelling thing about fixed-term Parliaments. As to the length of the term and whether it should be four or five years, I was struck by the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Armstrong of Ilminster. He made the point about Governments being distracted by preparing for elections and said that if there were to be a fixed-term Parliament, in his view as a former Cabinet Secretary, it should be five years.