Implications of Devolution for England
Debate between Baroness Stowell of Beeston and Lord Beecham(10 years ago)
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Lord Beecham (Lab)
My Lords, is the Leader aware that the Prime Minister’s pledge on the morning after the referendum about English votes for English laws, and the proposals in this White Paper, are in fact an answer to the SNP’s prayers and will reinforce it considerably? Will the Leader also explain why in chapter 2 of the document Decentralisation and Localism in England: Achievements to Date, there is no mention of the singular achievement of the Government in imposing the biggest ever cuts on local government funding to the extent that even Conservative councils believe that by the end of this decade they will be able to provide only statutory services—if them alone?
Baroness Stowell of Beeston
As the noble Lord knows, what we have done in this Parliament and through this Government is given greater power to local authorities in terms of control of their own finances. They are now in a much greater position than they were before to make the kind of steps that are about real change in their approach to providing services for local authorities.
Local Government Pensions Scheme (Transitional Provisions, Savings and Amendment) Regulations 2014
Debate between Baroness Stowell of Beeston and Lord Beecham
Baroness Stowell of Beeston
As Mayor of London, some of his functions are similar to those of police and crime commissioners. However, he is not regarded as a police and crime commissioner for the purposes of the Local Government Pension Scheme. His status is as mayor and not as a PCC.
Baroness Stowell of Beeston
The point about police and crime commissioners—this is an area which, in due course, we will want to examine—is that, since they were recently created, we felt that it was not appropriate to make this change at this time. I do not assume that it will be something that will be left unattended for ever.
My noble friend Lord True asked, when we were talking about savings, about the publicity budget for my department. He suggested that somebody in the Box would have the answer. Because I have a great bunch of officials with me, yes, indeed, I do have the answer, which is £2.5 million—which I would guess is a whole lot less than it was under the previous Government.
I can assure the House that the Government did not take this decision lightly. We certainly looked carefully at transitional arrangements for those councillors who are in the pension scheme. I note that the noble Lord, Lord Palmer, dismissed the concessions that we made following consultation that will see that existing members will leave the scheme only at the end of their existing fixed four-year term of office. That means that councillors’ membership of the scheme will be phased out between 2014 and 2017 and that no change to the reasonable expectations that councillors had when they ran for their fixed term will be made. I can also confirm to my noble friend Lord Vinson that he is right that nothing will stop councillors contributing to a personal private pension in future, but the key point is that they will not be able to join a scheme to which taxpayers contribute as their employers.
I firmly believe that the best thing we can do to encourage more people to take part in municipal public life is to decentralise power to local communities so that being a councillor is an even more meaningful and rewarding role. We need to attract and retain a wide range of enthusiastic councillors, and I agree with noble Lords who said that this is important. When we are talking about ensuring that we have a wide range of councillors—in fact my noble friend is back with me on the Front Bench—it is worth noting that one of her successors as leader of Trafford Council is 26 years old, comes from a modest background and put himself through university. It is simply not true to suggest that people do not want to put themselves forward to become councillors.
The reason we are starting to attract a wide range of people is that this Government have made many changes to local authorities that mean that councillors are in a greater position to deliver change. For example, we have abolished the Audit Commission and government offices. This means that councillors can rightly focus on meeting the needs of local people, rather than spending their time dancing to the tune of central government. We have introduced new rights for communities to lead and deliver change, including through neighbourhood planning. This gives exciting opportunities for councillors to support and encourage local people to help them deliver their own aspirations.
The noble Lord may laugh, but neighbourhood plans are seeing a fantastic turnout at referendums, when local people know that, as a result of getting engaged, they will see change and will be able to take control of decisions in their local area. We have introduced the general power of competence. This means that councillors now have greater scope to do things to meet local people’s needs. We have helped councillors better represent their constituents and better enrich local democratic debate by scrapping the Standards Board and clarifying the rules on predetermination. These are just a few examples of the steps this Government have taken to strengthen the contribution that councillors can make to their communities.
The LGA briefing note that was distributed to noble Lords prior to this afternoon’s debate said that,
“76% of people trust their local councillor the most to make decisions about how services are provided in their areas”.
That is great news, and the reason for that kind of result is that councillors have the power to lead their communities, to speak for their communities and to deliver for their communities. That is a very good thing.
Social Fund
Debate between Baroness Stowell of Beeston and Lord Beecham(10 years, 10 months ago)
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Baroness Stowell of Beeston
The Department for Work and Pensions is committed to reviewing how local authorities have been providing this support until now, and it will continue to do so during the course of 2014. What I hope we will see from that is that the very best practice which is being carried out in some local authorities will be used to inform other local authorities, and that the best practice is spread widely.
Lord Beecham (Lab)
My Lords, the amount of funding for local councils to replace the DWP crisis loan scheme was set for some reason at 2005 levels. In Newcastle, 1,800 awards have been made so far this year, covering issues such as free meals during school holidays, people fleeing violence, fire, and a range of other emergencies. As my noble friend Lady Lister said, the local government finance settlement makes clear that government funding will end in 2015-16. Will the Government now heed the plea of Newcastle Council’s revenue officer, echoed by others up and down the country, for,
“this money not to be cut”—
and, if not, why not?
Baroness Stowell of Beeston
As the noble Lord knows, the process of deciding the amount of funding that is made available through the local government finance settlement is very much considered on the basis of a range of issues, including pressures and demands that may be greater in some parts of the country than others. That is why we provide a higher rate of funding in some areas as opposed to others, as we do in Newcastle. Certainly, what we are also expecting all local authorities to do is to carry out measures that allow them to realise their own savings so that they can continue to provide the services that are needed by local people.
Local Government Finance Settlement
Debate between Baroness Stowell of Beeston and Lord Beecham(10 years, 11 months ago)
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Baroness Stowell of Beeston
I am not suggesting that people overemphasise, I am suggesting that the different approaches between this Government and the noble Baroness’s Government led to authorities focusing on where they faced difficulties rather than focusing on how they could benefit from opportunities.
One of the best illustrations of this Government’s approach is the new homes bonus, an incentive that will be worth almost £1 billion next year. This year, Bradford can expect some £2 million in new homes bonus for year 4 of the scheme, Wiltshire some £3 million and Walsall £1.2 million. The Government have listened to local authorities about not topslicing the new homes bonus, which was acknowledged by the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie. I am listening to noble Lords who call for even greater localism and I am interested in what they say but I also hear some contradictions in the various analyses that have been made by noble Lords in the debate today.
One of the other major points raised by noble Lords is that some parts of the country are losing out compared to others. However, the settlement represents a fair deal for every part of the country: north and south, district and county, city and shire. On average, councils will have spending power worth £2,089 per household. The average spending power reduction is just 2.9% in 2014-15. There is protection for more deprived areas of the country, those areas which are most dependent on grant. They continue to receive significantly more government grant. Notwithstanding the comments made by the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, it is worth making the point that Newcastle, for instance, receives in the region of £900 more per household than authorities such as Windsor and Maidenhead.
We have also recognised—
Lord Beecham
Does the Minister not recall the indices of deprivation to which I referred? The required spending is much higher per head than in Windsor and Maidenhead. On that basis, how can she possibly compare the two?
Baroness Stowell of Beeston
This system acknowledges that there is greater need in an area such as Newcastle. That is why it is receiving considerably more per household than areas that are not in as great a need. We acknowledge that and that is what we are doing. However, we also believe, taking on board the point made by my noble friend Lady Hanham, that Newcastle, along with every other area of this country, also has great opportunities to raise more funding in its own area through the various different kinds of scheme that are there and that will increase growth in the area if the opportunities are taken. We have also recognised that services can sometimes be more difficult and expensive to deliver in rural areas and have set aside £9.5 million to help them as they modernise their services.
The noble Lord, Lord Beecham, raised questions about the inclusion of social care funding. Social care funding, or the better care fund, which is worth £3.8 billion, is jointly agreed by councils and the NHS locally. Provisional settlement figures show that authorities facing the highest demand for services receive substantially more funding.
As councils are now in the process of setting their budgets, council tax payers will be looking to them to keep bills down. When we look at the local government finance settlement, local council tax payers are very much in the front of our mind. The Opposition talk a lot about the cost of living, but it is worth pointing out that under the previous Government, as my noble friend Lord True said, council tax more than doubled. This Government have done everything possible to protect hard-working families from further rises. Over the past three years, we have offered enough funding for councils to freeze council tax without losing income. We will be doing the same again for the next two years, with a further £550 million available to councils. We also intend to roll that funding into the baseline, giving certainty that councils will not lose out tomorrow by helping council tax payers today. Where bills have been frozen, the average bill payer could have saved more than £700. I very much hope that as many councils as possible will take up this offer, passing on these savings to their residents and doing their bit to help people with the cost of living.
I do not think that any noble Lord raised the issue of council tax referendums but I am sure your Lordships will wish to know that we are still consulting on the principles of that. The threshold will be announced shortly. Noble Lords should be aware that we are open to representations about a lower threshold than that set up to now. Transparency and accountability to local taxpayers are absolutely critical. Those authorities which have been setting a 1.9% increase to avoid the 2% threshold for a referendum are simply not having an honest conversation with their residents. The money is there to freeze bills so why not take it?
Lord Beecham
I am grateful to the noble Baroness. Is she saying that you can have any increase you like under 10% as long as the Government approve of it? Why does she not allow the electorate to make its judgement as it does upon Governments, at the ballot box at elections?
Baroness Stowell of Beeston
The noble Lord knows very well that we are ensuring that councils can freeze council tax. We think that it is important that that can be delivered as a way to support families who struggle with the cost of living. The noble Lord, as concerned as he is about the cost of living, should support councils in freezing their council tax.
I do not agree with the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, that my right honourable friend the Secretary of State has not paid tribute to what many councils have done to try to transform services. We acknowledge that many councils have taken steps to make savings through common-sense measures, but much more could still be done. I also do not agree with the noble Lord, Lord Smith of Leigh, that nothing more can be done because only low-hanging fruit was available to them. We are not talking small change here. It is estimated that some £2 billion a year is lost through local fraud. Local authorities spend £60 billion a year on procurement. There remains plenty of room for councils to save significant sums through more joint working, sharing back-office functions and using smarter procurement practice. Council tax payers rightly expect to see councils tackle these issues before they start putting up bills or cutting back on services. As has already been mentioned, the Government published Fifty Ways To Save. I will not accept any cynicism about this because no council is yet fully realising the potential set out in that document. As one example, there are only around 20 shared chief executive posts in the country. There are plenty of other examples where local authorities have made significant strides forward in this area and demonstrated what is possible.
Councils also have more than £19 billion in reserves. People would be surprised to hear that that is increasing while at the same time local authorities plead poverty. There is also something like £2 billion-worth of uncollected council tax. Councils have varying degrees of success in their collection rates, but all need to aspire to the best. That is even before we begin to consider the more fundamental transformation in services through models like the troubled families programme or the whole place community budgets, where the emphasis is on early intervention and prevention. Over time, these programmes promise to be more effective and efficient. I could offer more examples but do not have the time. I highlight this kind of approach in response to the noble Baroness, Lady Pitkeathley, and others who raised concerns about some specific services. We have set aside £200 million from capital receipts to support service transformation. Next year, there will be a further £330 million to continue this transformation, including a £200 million expansion of the troubled families programme.
Several noble Lords raised questions about the timing of the announcement. I am sure that noble Lords will understand that the settlement must follow the Autumn Statement, which this year was on 5 December. The noble Baroness, Lady Donaghy, asked about the consultation period. I make the point to her and other noble Lords that the consultation period we are in at the moment is on top of widespread consultation during the course of the year that led to the provisional settlement. I have already mentioned in respect of the new home bonus one change that we made in light of listening to that consultation. My honourable friend the local government Minister has already had one conference call open to all local authorities. He will hold another and continues to have an open-door policy available to all those wishing to engage and discuss matters with him.
The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Ripon and Leeds and the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, asked about local welfare provision. Councils will continue to provide support to those in the community who face financial difficulty or find themselves in unavoidable circumstances. The LGA has raised those issues with DWP Ministers, and I understand that it is in discussion with the DWP at this moment.
As I said, I will follow up some other points in a letter that I will write following the debate. In concluding, councils have taken important steps towards modernising and transforming their services, and I pay tribute to them for their efforts, but it is possible to do more while also keeping council tax down. We have delivered a settlement that is fair to all parts of the country, and we believe that the flexibility is there to help councils to meet this challenge and, most importantly, to serve their local taxpayers even more efficiently and effectively than they have been able to in the past.
Justice and Security Bill [HL]
Debate between Baroness Stowell of Beeston and Lord Beecham(12 years ago)
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Lord Beecham
My Lords, for the avoidance of doubt, I should say that the Opposition support Amendment 56. My noble friend Lady Kennedy beat me to the Public Bill Office in putting her name to it. As she and the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, have said, it is important that the press and the media generally should have notification of applications of this kind. It complements a later amendment that will require the regular reporting of the number of applications that have been made, so to some degree the two things flow together.
The manuscript amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, has arrived very late in the day and, given the other excitements we have been enjoying, I confess that I personally have not given it sufficient attention. I will be interested to hear the views of the Minister if she is replying to that particular amendment in due course. I would also be interested to learn the views of the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, on it, if he is able to give them. On the face of it, the amendment seems fairly persuasive, but it has been brought forward so late that I am finding it difficult to come to a decision, although other noble Lords may find it easier to do so. But certainly so far as Amendment 56 is concerned, and indeed the original amendment in this group, the Opposition are fully supportive.
Baroness Stowell of Beeston
My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords for their remarks. I will speak generally and respond to the noble Lord, Lord Phillips. The noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, has not said anything about his amendments in this group but what I will say applies to those as well.
The Bill does not seek to change the rules in relation to civil proceedings, save where this is necessary to have a closed material procedure; we are not otherwise changing the ordinary rules in civil procedures relating to disclosure of evidence. The noble Lord, Lord Phillips, in speaking to his manuscript amendment, talked about adding a lasso. We believe that the Bill already provides a lasso. We agree with the thrust of the points he makes but do not think it is necessary to accept his amendment, because the Bill provides for the essence of this point in Clause 9, where it says that, subject to securing closed material procedures, the ordinary rules of disclosure must otherwise apply. The way that his amendment is worded may also be a potential source of confusion in that it is unclear what is meant by the word “necessary” in the amendment in a particular case. More specifically, we are already providing for the concerns that he has raised.
Baroness Stowell of Beeston
The point that I am trying to make, and I have made it several times, is that in the amendment that the Government are moving we are ensuring that it is now going to be part of the formal process of the courts to alert those who may be interested of the judge’s decision. As far as the media are concerned, we do not feel that it is necessary for there to be a specific notification to the media of the fact that the CMP has been applied for and consequently has been agreed or not agreed. There is nothing in that that is about withholding information.
The media report on other cases that use CMPs, in particular they are able to report on a finding on the issues. Indeed on other CMPs there does not seem to be a problem at all with the way that this works. In terms of the media being able to intervene in individual cases, which is another aspect to this amendment, civil damages cases that would be heard under this legislation are private law claims and it could be inappropriate for third party interventions to be made in such claims. The claimant may not want the media to intervene in the proceedings. I think that the most important point is that the outcome of all CMP cases will be reportable, increasing the opportunities for the media to report on these kinds of cases, as at present the Government are obviously having to settle rather than a claim being seen through to its conclusion.
I will turn to the other point that the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, raised about closed judgments, which is also covered in the JCHR amendments. It may be helpful for noble Lords if I briefly give some background on how closed judgments already work. There is a judicial safeguard on the use of closed judgments. In a case involving sensitive material, the judge must be satisfied that any material in the closed, rather than open, judgment would be damaging to national security and so could not be released. Special advocates can also make submissions to the judge about moving material from the closed judgment to the open judgment. If the court is persuaded that there would be no harm to national security, the material can then be moved to the open judgment.
The Government believe that it is important that those that are entitled to access closed judgments are able to do so. For this reason, the Government have created a searchable database containing summaries of closed judgments that will allow special advocates and HMG counsel to identify potentially relevant closed judgments. It is worth making the point that this new initiative has been put in place following the various stages of the passage of this Bill, both in terms of hearings and of discussion at JCHR. I am grateful to all noble Lords who have led to that new database being available.
The amendments also propose a review mechanism. Although I welcome this suggestion, the Government do not think that this particular proposal would work in practice. As drafted, it could mean that a person could attempt to subvert the disclosure process built into closed material proceedings by applying for the information immediately after the court had decided what information should be contained within the open and closed judgment, and then at regular intervals thereafter. A person could also abuse the process and put in an application each day. This would place a serious resource burden on the courts and agencies.
Having listened to the debate today and the findings from the JCHR report, the Government recognise that the review of closed judgments is an important issue and needs further thinking. The Government therefore request that Ministers have more time to look into the issues and report our findings to Parliament during the passage of this Bill. Obviously this may be something that would be looked at in the other place. To conclude, I ask noble Lords to accept the government amendment not to have CMPs without notice. I hope from the course of this debate that the noble Lords who have amendments in this group feel able to withdraw them at this time.
Lord Beecham
Before the noble Baroness sits down, in relation to the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, would it be a way forward for her to take that back so that it might be raised, if necessary, at Third Reading? It is very late and the Minister is in difficulty—I think that we are all in difficulty—in terms of understanding the implications of the amendment, so this may be a way through the dilemma.
Lord Phillips of Sudbury
I am grateful for that suggestion. I do not want to keep apologising, but I do think, if the Minister agrees, that that is the way to deal with this.
Justice and Security Bill [HL]
Debate between Baroness Stowell of Beeston and Lord Beecham(12 years, 4 months ago)
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Lord Beecham
My Lords, we have previously debated amendments that would help to secure oversight of this system, if indeed this Bill survives the legislative process. Most, though not all, noble Lords who have spoken in the debates in Committee have expressed considerable reservations about the principle. Most have then spoken to amendments that would mitigate the effect of the principle if indeed it emerges in the final transition of the Bill to the statute book.
For my part, I concur very strongly with the views of the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, and the noble Baroness, Lady Berridge, regarding the establishment of a system for identifying the case law and the judgments and making them available, at some point at any rate, to inform the judicial process. That seems very important to me and certainly I lean towards amendments that ultimately would require the publication of reasons for a decision.
I am less attracted, however, by the first parts of the amendment moved by the noble Baroness, which would allow the media to intervene in proceedings. I am not quite certain of the form in which such intervention would take place, but in any event I am not at all persuaded thus far that this is something that would materially assist the process as opposed to simply promoting the interests of the media. It is difficult to see how that would work in practice, so we cannot support those elements of the amendment.
However, we look to the Government to respond constructively to the points made about the recording and availability of case law and the justification for particular decisions being made at a point when security interests are no longer as strong as when the closed material procedures, if indeed they exist, are implemented in a particular case. There ought at some point to be a disclosure. To that extent we sympathise with that part of the amendment, but in relation to its first parts we cannot really support what the noble Baroness is trying to do.
Baroness Stowell of Beeston
My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend Lady Berridge for tabling this amendment because it is important that, in a Bill such as this, we have an opportunity to discuss freedom of expression and the media’s important role in holding the Government to account and scrutinising what happens in this country. I think my noble friend suggested that one of the purposes of her amendment was to ensure that there is public trust in the judicial system. She certainly made several remarks about the importance of open justice, and was joined in that by other noble Lords. We obviously share that objective and, from the report of the Joint Committee on Human Rights, we are aware of its concerns about the impact on public trust and confidence in the courts.
However, it is important that we remind ourselves that this Bill is also about allowing justice to be done where that has not been possible before—and doing so in a way that is as fair as we can make it. Throughout the debates on the closed material procedure aspect of the Bill the Government, through my noble and learned friend, have been at pains to stress that as much material and judicial reasoning as is possible without damaging national security will go into open court. The special advocates will assist with pushing as much material as possible out of the closed case into open court, and at all stages of the process: at the application stage, during the substance of the case and at the point of judgment, when they will challenge the material in the closed judgment and make representations about why it should be in the open. The media will have access to all open elements of proceedings, as normal. Indeed, as I will come on to explain, we believe that in this process they will have access to more material than they might otherwise have had.
My noble friend and the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, referred to safeguards. I think the noble Lord said that it was important to build in safeguards in order not to undermine the need for secrecy. There was some consensus built around the later legs of the amendment, which refer to what I might describe as the declassification of the judgments. I will come back to that later.
My immediate response to the first part of the amendment is that it raises some practical difficulties as far as giving the media access to intervening in the proceedings. Indeed, I was interested to hear the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, express his doubts about whether that would actually add to the proceedings. While I know that my noble friend mentioned the suggestion of the media being appointed a special advocate in order to be able to intervene in proceedings, it is important to recognise that the media is not in and of itself an institution with a formal responsibility to represent the public interest. The media have several functions, whether to report or to investigate. Certainly in open proceedings, they are there representing the public alongside the public who are already there. To give them access to something that is closed because the nature of the discussion and the evidence at issue could, if brought into the open, damage national security, would seem an anomaly. It would also be difficult to make possible in practice.
Justice and Security Bill [HL]
Debate between Baroness Stowell of Beeston and Lord Beecham(12 years, 5 months ago)
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Baroness Stowell of Beeston
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, my noble friend Lady Berridge and other noble Lords who have contributed to this short debate. It raises some important issues about how an Act of Parliament, especially one such as this, is scrutinised after Royal Assent. I understand the intention behind the amendments, which is to ensure that effective mechanisms are in place for reviewing the operation of CMPs and other aspects of the Bill. I also understand, support and indeed share the objective of ensuring accountability of Government to Parliament, particularly in an area where we are moving towards new measures which are different and mark a significant step away from what has been routine until this point.
Amendment 67A, moved by the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, would require an independent review of the impact of the provisions under Part 2 three years after Royal Assent. It may be helpful to remind noble Lords that any Act has always been liable to some form of post-legislative review, whether by a parliamentary committee or internally within Government. Since March 2008, an additional and more systematic process has been in place. Normally, three to five years after Royal Assent, the responsible department must submit a memorandum to the relevant Commons departmental Select Committee. The memorandum will include a preliminary assessment of how the Act has worked out in practice, relative to objectives and benchmarks identified during the passage of the Bill. The Select Committee, or another committee, will then decide whether it wishes to conduct a fuller post-legislative inquiry into the Act. The process applies to all Acts receiving Royal Assent in or after 2005. This process already covers a requirement for a review after several years. Therefore, I think that the objective outlined in the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, is already covered.
Amendment 67B and the first part of Amendment 88 seek respectively to introduce annual and quarterly reports on the operation of this part of the Act. The noble Lord, Lord Judd, made an important point. While it is important to have a process for calling the Government to account and for reviewing the operation of the Act and the CMP process, we need to be careful of the law of diminishing returns by introducing a process that is so systematic that over time it is no longer as impactful as it might otherwise be. What is important is that the Government collect the relevant data so that if a Select Committee or any parliamentarian wants to ask a question, or if there is a debate or a parliamentarian wishes to scrutinise the operation of CMPs, we are in a position to do so. My noble friend Lady Berridge referred to that point. During the process between now and Report, as we consider the implementation phase of the Bill, we will carefully consider how best to do that. I will certainly take on board the points made in the debate.
The second part of Amendment 88 seeks to add the review of the provisions in Part 2 of the Bill to the remit of the independent reviewer of terrorism legislation. I am concerned about how practical such a proposal may be to achieve its aims, given that the remit of the independent reviewer has already been extended on several occasions. His statutory responsibilities relate to the Terrorism Act 2000, Part 1 of the Terrorism Act 2006, the TPIM Act 2011 and the Terrorist Asset-Freezing (Temporary Provisions) Act 2010. Furthermore, the Protection of Freedoms Act, which came into force this year, requires that the independent reviewer or someone on his behalf undertakes a review of any detention of a terrorist suspect beyond the current statutory limit and if the Government intend to commence functions in the Coroners and Justice Act 2009 relating to the independent reviewer inspecting places of terrorist detention.
The TPIM Act is unique in that its measures are designed to restrict the behaviour and activities of individuals suspected of involvement in terrorism who, the Government argue, cannot be prosecuted or deported. This is why Parliament legislated for close post-legislative scrutiny. David Anderson QC indicated, when giving evidence to the Joint Committee on the Draft Detention of Terrorist Suspects (Temporary Extension) Bills, that his role has already increased and that there is a limit to how much one person can do. It is important that we avoid diluting the effectiveness of the role by overburdening it. Notwithstanding this, I recognise the valuable contribution that David Anderson QC has made to the debate about the need for CMPs. His reviewer functions for asset-freezing and TPIMs already include the use of CMPs. There is nothing to prevent Mr Anderson or any future post-holder being asked to undertake ad hoc reports into issues of wider national security relevance or being invited by Parliament to give his opinions. It is important that any such ad hoc report should not seek to provide oversight or review of the judiciary’s decisions on individual cases. That would not be appropriate.
My noble friend Lady Berridge asked about the database that is being made available to the special advocates. I can inform her that the closed database is to ensure that special advocates have access to judgments for legal precedent value. However, the database will contain sensitive information and will not be appropriate for disclosure generally to Parliament.
All that said, I hope that I have gone some way to reassuring the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, and other noble Lords that the measures currently in place are sufficient to ensure that the Act, if the Bill achieves Royal Assent, is properly scrutinised and that the department takes seriously its responsibility to ensure that we are in a position to be held accountable in the way that Parliament has every right to expect. On that basis, I hope that the noble Lord feels able to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Beecham
My Lords, if I am right, this is the first occasion on which the noble Baroness has responded to a justice debate. I welcome her to her new responsibilities. I wonder whether she is by any chance related to Lord Stowell, an eminent 18th century judge from Newcastle. He was the brother of the Tory Lord Chancellor, Lord Eldon—the most reactionary Lord Chancellor that the country has ever had. Perhaps she would enlighten me on her genealogy or, if she is not sure, look into it.
Baroness Stowell of Beeston
I will not detain the House. He is no relation but I know of his existence, which is why my title is Baroness Stowell of Beeston.
Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill
Debate between Baroness Stowell of Beeston and Lord Beecham(13 years, 5 months ago)
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Lord Beecham
I confess to being in two minds, having heard my noble friend’s argument for the case, supported by the noble Baroness, but also the objections to the proposed course from the noble Lords, Lord Howard, Lord Dear and Lord Stevens. I can see the force of the objection to the prospect of a limited number of pilots stretching over a number of years, but it is not so much a question of democratic principle being at risk from such an exercise. The concern is around precisely the issue of checks and balances. If it goes through and we have an elected police commissioner, that is relatively straightforward; it is what happens in that context over time that will tell whether the checks and balances that some of us feel are inadequate are sufficient to meet the case. Actually, a limited number of pilot examples might not demonstrate that. The noble Lord has a point in that respect.
To develop a theme that the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, advanced, I wonder whether the practice of what is a major constitutional change in the way in which the police service in this country is run could be reviewed after a period of three years. I do not mean on the basis of a number of pilots, but we could take a considered view after three years, say, and look at whether the expectations are being fulfilled. I accept that the Government are genuine in their belief that they have got it right or are getting it right on checks and balances. Without a formal sunset clause, perhaps we could have an indication that that situation would be reviewed and adjustments made, if necessary, around the areas of concern that many noble Lords have voiced about the practice of this new structure, with its implications for accountability and effectiveness, both at local level and in connection with the other concerns about national strategies and the like.
It is less of a formal legislative process that I am suggesting might be considered and more one in which it would be possible to revisit these concerns, taking a broad look across however many authorities will be involved in any new structure and with a view to fine tuning, as it may be, or making perhaps more substantial changes in the light of what will by then be a general experience, which might tell us whether the hopes of Ministers in proposing these changes are being fulfilled. Would the Minister care to consider whether such a process might be acceptable to the Government without necessarily changing the terms of the Bill?
Baroness Stowell of Beeston
My Lords, I do not support this amendment. I said at Second Reading that some noble Lords might want to propose piloting elected police and crime commissioners because it is a radical change from the current system, but I do not believe that that is what is needed. After we have finished properly scrutinising this Bill, we need to get on with it and to do it. We need to implement this change. People want stronger local political leadership in their fight against crime, and they want it now.
I referred at Second Reading to some research that my noble friend Lord Ashcroft, the founder of Crimestoppers, commissioned, which showed unanimity between police officers and the public in their views on crime. One conclusion that that research showed was that they shared a common view on the lack of local accountability.
Recent public attention has been focused more on the justice system rather than on the policing system. In raising the justice system, I am thinking particularly of the Dowler family last weekend. The reason why I raise this is because most of us have never suffered the kind of violent crime of which that family were victims, and we have never had to testify against defendants accused of crime in a court of law, but their experience resonated with people because it illustrated a wider sense of unfairness felt by the law-abiding. It made people ask who is on their side. Tonight we are not talking about the justice system—we are talking about policing—but through this Bill and through implementing elected police and crime commissioners, we have the opportunity to provide an answer. So I do not want us to wait years to address this weakness; I do not want us to wait years to answer people’s questions. I want us to get on with it. For that reason, I do not support piloting and I do not support this amendment.