Illegal Migration Bill

Debate between Baroness Stowell of Beeston and Baroness Ludford

Committee stage
Wednesday 14th June 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Ludford (LD)]

I hesitate to interrupt the noble Baroness as I will have a right of reply after the Minister, but I do not think I have said any such thing. I did not say that everybody who crosses the channel or comes in another way irregularly is entitled to refugee status. Obviously, they are defined as refugees under the refugee convention, but if they are seeking status in the UK, they have to go through a process and those who do not qualify should be removed—deported. That is what a rational, fair and proper asylum procedure looks like. Our objection to the Bill is its refusal to admit anybody to the determination process. I have never said, nor have any of my noble friends, that everybody who arrives should be allowed to stay, under whatever status. Of course you cannot run an asylum system in that way and we have never said that.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston (Con)]

What the noble Baroness does through many of her contributions is argue against anybody using the terminology “illegal immigrant” by virtue of the fact that they have come via that route and have claimed asylum. My understanding of what she is arguing is that their status as an asylum seeker should be accepted by virtue of the fact that they have made that claim.

I said at Second Reading that I based my remarks on conversations that I have had with people who work alongside immigrants in workplaces which are very different from the one we spend our time in. I said that if there was one way I could define the main message that they were seeking to make clear to me and to this House and to Parliament as we consider this legislation—I am quoting myself here—it was:

“Don’t assume or believe that everyone attempting to enter our country illegally is a genuine asylum seeker fleeing persecution”. —[Official Report, 10/5/23; col. 1814.]


I said that because I think that some of the arguments being made about being able to work are based on a desire for us to address that in a context where the noble Baroness’s perception of the situation is rather different from that of other people.

The noble Lord, Lord Kerr, invoked economic and productivity arguments in favour of allowing asylum seekers to work. Again, I can see where he is coming from and I do not in any way disagree with him or any noble Lord about the hard-working nature or enterprising disposition of people who come to this country. That is not something I would enter into any kind of discussion about. But I think that if we are going to raise economic arguments as a reason for the Government to accept these amendments and allow asylum seekers, at this current moment in time, to work in the way proposed, we must also remember that we have 5 million people on out-of-work benefits at a time when there is a record number of job vacancies.

EU: UK Settlement

Debate between Baroness Stowell of Beeston and Baroness Ludford

Wednesday 8th June 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Ludford (LD)]

My Lords—

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Stowell of Beeston) (Con)]

My Lords, I will sit down and see which of these noble Baronesses—

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My Lords, I am sorry to have to get up again. I think it is the turn of the Lib Dem Benches, having not heard from them. Then we can come back to the Conservative Benches.

[Baroness Ludford]

Does the Minister agree that the February decision of the heads of state and government—not of the European Council—and indeed our future in the EU, has a degree of clarity and certainty which shines out, compared with the sketchy and shifting scenarios that we hear from the Brexiteers, whose model is based variously on Norway, Canada or Albania, depending on the speaker, the day or the hour?

European Council: March 2016

Debate between Baroness Stowell of Beeston and Baroness Ludford

Monday 21st March 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I certainly agree with the noble Lord that it is because we are there at the table that we have been able to be influential in coming up with this comprehensive plan to deal with this very serious situation. Not only is that good, because it makes sure that we can fight for Britain’s interests in coming up with a solution, but also, if we were not at the table, this problem would still exist, and we would not have been able to ensure that in its design we would protect the United Kingdom’s interests as well as supporting these very desperate and poor people who need Europe’s support.

[Baroness Ludford (LD)]

Can the noble Baroness the Leader of the House explain why, notwithstanding her remarks just now, the Government stubbornly refuse to put their own efforts—their laudable humanitarian aid contribution and rather less admirable resettlement offer—squarely into a European policy framework, and then add a relocation effort under the criteria that my noble and learned friend mentioned? Surely, EU asylum policy is part of the European security agenda, on which the Prime Minister has rightly declared an intention to lead. Why cannot what we are doing be squarely in the European framework?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

Because, my Lords, we work in Britain’s overall best interests, and we are seeking to assist Europe in making sure that, in the package as a whole, what Europe does in protecting its borders and supporting people is very much in line with what we believe is the right thing to do, while retaining control of how we support these refugees. That will in future be very much in line with what Europe is doing. It is Europe that is following our lead—but what we are able to do is to retain control ultimately of the number of people who come into this country. That is what the British people want us to do—to be able to influence but to retain control. That is why, to coin a phrase, it is the best of both worlds.

European Council

Debate between Baroness Stowell of Beeston and Baroness Ludford

Monday 22nd February 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I think I will leave the noble Lord to get into a battle about Latin with somebody else—I hope he will forgive me, but I will not engage in that. However, I am very grateful to him for recognising that what the Prime Minister achieved in Brussels was substantive and valuable. He is quite right about the reaction in Europe to what the Prime Minister has achieved. Unfortunately, I have only recently been given some quotes so I will not try to read them out, but clearly, the other leaders in Europe have been able to explain to their people that the UK has got itself a new status in Europe, with new terms. They have also acknowledged that, with the exception of the specific carve-out for the United Kingdom on ever closer union, the changes the Prime Minister has negotiated are to the benefit of Europe as a whole—this is not just about a benefit for the UK—and have acknowledged just how hard the Prime Minister pressed them during these negotiations. The noble Baroness referred to the scenes in Europe. I argue that they demonstrated just how difficult it was for the Prime Minister to get this better deal for the UK. On that basis, we can have every confidence in it.

[Baroness Ludford (LD)]

My Lords, I am delighted that the Prime Minister has shifted to making the big, positive, patriotic case for our membership of the European Union; it is perhaps a pity that he has not been making that case over the last decade. Perhaps I may ask the noble Baroness, with a slight note of concern, how the Government will avoid the adverse consequences of what I might call the “be careful what you wish for” aspects. One is the special status she just talked about, which is in some respects a semi-detached status. How will we make sure that the UK truly is in the lead on EU policy areas such as security and climate change, where we want to be fully engaged? Secondly, although the red card is unlikely ever to be used, there is a danger that it could be used by national parliaments ganging up against the liberalisation of services in the single market in a protectionist way that would not be in our favour. Lastly, on the sovereignty angle—my noble and learned friend Lord Wallace referred to a constitutional court—if the UK Supreme Court becomes a constitutional court that can override Parliament, how will that increase British parliamentary sovereignty domestically?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

The noble Baroness covered a lot of ground and she will forgive me for not dealing with all those points, in order to allow other noble Lords to get in. She suggested that the Prime Minister is only now making the positive case for Britain’s membership of the European Union; I disagree. It is also very important for us to acknowledge that there has been a great deal of frustration among the people of this country about the way Europe has operated for a long time. They have been frustrated at not getting the opportunity to have a referendum. The Prime Minister is being so positive about what he is putting forward to the United Kingdom because he has addressed people’s concerns through his renegotiation and is giving them the opportunity finally to have their say. That is an essential and important part of the message that we need to deliver.

On the noble Baroness’s other points, what is important about ever-closer union and what the Prime Minister was seeking to address in his renegotiation is that we now have the power—which we never had before—not to be involved in things we do not think are in Britain’s interests.

Tunisia and European Council

Debate between Baroness Stowell of Beeston and Baroness Ludford

Monday 29th June 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Ludford]

My Lords, will the Leader of the House give us an assurance that we will hear more consistent messaging from the Prime Minister about the purposes of engagement with our EU partners? We have had mixed messages up to now. I was glad to hear the Statement refer to reform as well as renegotiation, but of course those require rather different styles. If we are taking about the reform of the whole EU, which will, of course, get a good degree of support across the EU, as opposed to renegotiation of Britain’s relationship with the EU, which was the language in the Conservative manifesto, is the Prime Minister going to say consistently that his aim is multilateral reform of the EU? If so, he may get more than a few minutes, during what my noble friend called a pit stop, at a future European Council, to be heard on this issue.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I am glad to know that the noble Baroness has studied our manifesto. As far as her question is concerned, the Prime Minister will take an approach that covers both those things. As I said, this is about reform, renegotiation and a referendum, when the British people will have the opportunity to decide. The Prime Minister has been very careful to talk to all his counterparts in the European Union and he will continue to do so. As I said, I think that there is now real enthusiasm from others that this should be an opportunity that benefits the European Union as a whole.

European Union Membership: Science and Technology

Debate between Baroness Stowell of Beeston and Baroness Ludford

Monday 22nd June 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Ludford (LD)]

My Lords—

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Stowell of Beeston) (Con)]

My Lords, we really need to get better at this. All of us have a responsibility to make Question Time work. It is not just down to me to help the House; it is the responsibility of everybody. My noble friends behind me are calling for the noble Lord, Lord Pearson. As noble Lords know, it is not for me to decide who speaks in this House; it is for the House to indicate whose turn it is. I suggest that we hear from the noble Lord, Lord Pearson, then from the noble Baroness, Lady Ludford, as we have not yet heard from a Liberal Democrat this Question Time.

Air Pollution

Debate between Baroness Stowell of Beeston and Baroness Ludford

Tuesday 9th June 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Ludford (LD)]

My Lords—

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Stowell of Beeston) (Con)]

My Lords, I think that sometimes noble Lords just want me to stand up and take control of the situation. We started with the Green Party and we have been going around the Chamber very carefully. If we go around in order then it is the turn of the Conservative Benches and, therefore, my noble friend Lord Borwick.

EU: Justice Opt-ins

Debate between Baroness Stowell of Beeston and Baroness Ludford

Wednesday 10th December 2014 Lords Chamber

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Stowell of Beeston)]

My Lords, forgive me, but we have not yet heard from the Liberal Democrat Benches, so we shall hear from the noble Baroness, Lady Ludford, first. We have plenty of time for other noble Lords to participate in this Question.

[Baroness Ludford]

Can the Minister confirm that the famous corpus juris was in fact purely an academic research report, not a European Commission proposal? Its only product has been the idea of a European public prosecutor, in which the UK is not participating. Can he further confirm that all other EU action against crime is firmly founded on mutual recognition, as promoted by the UK, and that there is no European jurisdiction or European criminal code?

EU: Free Movement of Labour

Debate between Baroness Stowell of Beeston and Baroness Ludford

Tuesday 11th November 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Ludford (LD)]

My Lords—

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Stowell of Beeston) (Con)]

If we are all very brief, we should be able to get in a question from the Cross Benches and a question from the Liberal Democrats.