Armed Forces Bill

Baroness Smith of Newnham Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 8th September 2026 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Stansgate (Lab)]

My Lords, briefly, this is a very sensible amendment and I support it. In the world in which we now live, and with the way in which we communicate with one another, are there people in our Armed Forces already thinking ahead to different, more urgent ways of being in contact; for example, via WhatsApp? Email may not be the only way we can use modern technology to achieve the ends set out in Amendment 38.

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

My Lords, I agree with the noble Viscount, Lord Stansgate, that these government amendments are limited and make perfect sense. Sending notices by email makes sense. I would be concerned about formal communications being sent necessarily by forms of social media, but, equally, it would be sensible for His Majesty’s Government to keep open the opportunities of using whatever modes of communication are relevant at the time.

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, I do not have too much to say on this group of two government amendments, so I will keep it brief.

I understand entirely why the Government wish to allow call-out notices to be sent by email. The Minister has given us an excellent explanation of their rationale, and we on these Benches concur. There are, however, two points which I would be grateful if the Minister could clarify. The drafting of the amendment says:

“A notice under this section may also be served”.


This could be taken to mean “instead of” or “as well as”. My point is that it must mean “as well as”. I would not be comfortable with call-out notices being sent out only by email. What if the email ends up in a junk or spam folder, the recipient misses the email, or perhaps they do not even check their email—there are probably some here who do not do that? If the call-out notice is sent only by email, there exists a relatively high possibility that it might be missed. This could of course have some quite serious ramifications. I hope the Minister can confirm that call-out notices will continue to be sent by post as well as by email. If that is the case, I have no issue.

The second point relates to the first. New subsection (6A) specifies which email will be used to send a call-out notice, that being

“the last known email address used by that person as a means of communicating with them, or … an email address by means of which there are reasonable grounds to believe that an email sent to that address will come to the attention of the person”.

What precisely does “used” mean in this context? Does it mean an address which the individual has provided to the MoD? Does it mean an address to which the MoD has previously sent communications? Does the department need evidence that the person has received or responded to communications at that address, and who makes a judgment that an email address is the last known one? Further, what are those reasonable grounds? Does this imply trying to send the email to a friend or relative, and if so, how will the third party be chosen? If this policy is to have the desired effect, information collection and recordkeeping must be paramount.

I understand that the Reserve Forces (Provision of Information by Persons Liable to be Recalled) Regulations 1997 expressly state that there is a legal obligation for those who are subject to recall to keep the MoD up to date with their residential or postal address. This seems essential. Those regulations do not currently require those liable to recall to keep the MoD updated about any changes to their email address. Obviously, that is because the legislation does not yet enable email addresses to be used for callout. Can the Minister confirm that, with this change to the process, the Government will update the 1997 regulations and any other relevant policies?

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If I may say so, as a bridge—looking to the Minister and other Members of the House—one potentially sensible way to move forward is that there are things that can be done in secondary legislation. Perhaps the Minister can respond to this. I understand that there has been some consultation with RFCAs which may put some of these fears to one side and address them. Rather than this binary approach, we should be trying to find how your Lordships’ House can come together in a pragmatic, sensible way to address the issues of governance. I for one feel—I am sorry that this is not a unified view in your Lordships’ House—that an NDPB is perhaps one way forward. Maybe not in a purist sense, but we would be able to accommodate the specific needs of the regional nature of the RFCAs within that NDPB, while using secondary legislation to reassure your Lordships that some of these issues can be addressed.

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

My Lords, I thought I was going to rise from these Benches and be able to say, “I agree with all the noble and noble and gallant Lords who have spoken so far in this debate”, because there appeared to be uniformity across the Committee. We are used to that on defence matters. Last week, on the first day in Committee, there were discussions outside the Chamber, where some of the doorkeepers were saying, “We might have to get taxis this evening”, and I said, “Are you sure we’re not going to finish by 10 pm?” They looked at me and said, “Really? Do you think so?” But, of course, with something like military precision, we finished all our groups by 9.55 pm, and people kept saying afterwards, “Of course, it was military precision. What else did you expect?”

However, it was not military precision that meant that we dealt with business expeditiously on day one in Committee. It was that, by and large, the proposals and amendments that we were debating were areas where we were probing. Broadly, we were supportive of what His Majesty’s Government were proposing. As so often on defence matters, His Majesty’s Official Opposition, the Liberal Democrat Benches and the Cross Benches were supportive of what the Government were trying to do, but this evening we have stand part debates, on Clause 38 and Schedule 6, where the House is virtually united in suggesting that the Government really need to think again.

If I were speaking from the Back Benches, I would simply ask the Government: why? Why is Clause 38 needed? But as I am speaking from the Front Bench, I feel it appropriate to outline that, on these Benches, we very much share the concerns raised, particularly about losing the local connection. I have heard mutterings from behind me saying, “I agree with Lord de Mauley”, and concerns have certainly been raised across the Chamber. In particular, early on in the debate, the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Craig of Radley, rightly pointed out the importance of the reserves but also the local connection. There is the fact that the PAC had acknowledged that reserves and cadets are increasingly important for the defence of our realm, and that the SDR also highlighted this.

The noble Lord, Lord Lancaster, was really the only dissenting voice, and even he said he wanted to be a bridge. I think he was speaking as a non-affiliated Peer, but apparently from the Conservative Benches, so I am not quite sure. He is the only noble Lord so far who has suggested that Clause 38 may be the right way forward. But he reminded the House that the SDR talked about wanting to increase the number of reserves by 20%—when resources allow, in brackets.

Surely we should not wait until resources allow; we should work with the structures that we have, through the reserve forces and cadets associations, and think of ways to ensure that we strengthen and enhance local connection and local resilience. As a country, we have not yet engaged in the national conversation that the SDR said we needed. How better to do that than to work with local people and local Reserve Forces, and particularly the cadets? The noble Lord, Lord Lancaster, rightly pointed out that we have not said much about the cadets. Surely that is an area where we need to think about strengthening—again, strengthening the local connection—and ensuring that we have a pipeline to recruitment, as well as resilience and a sense that we are beginning the national conversation.

I will conclude with a statement from Portsmouth City Council—not my local area; unlike the noble Baroness, Lady Fraser, I have not talked about my area, partly because, as a Liverpudlian, I feel that the north-west is getting quite a lot of coverage thanks to the new Prime Minister. Portsmouth City Council, in line with its geographical position and the extent of its naval commitments, has a very strong commitment to the Armed Forces covenant and the South East Reserves Forces’ and Cadets’ Association, and it made an official contribution to the call for evidence in Committee in the other place. In particular, the council reminded us—as some noble Lords have done today—that this is not just about the individual RFCAs but about working with local employers. If we accept Clause 38, there is a real danger that we lose not just the history, which is important, but significant aspects of current practice that work well and that could and should be enhanced.

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

My Lords, it is a great privilege and pleasure to make the case for Clause 38 in your Lordships’ Committee.

I want to clarify something for the noble Earl, Lord Minto: the service of notice for callout will be by both post and email. I meant that by my previous remark, but I realise I did not make it clear, for which I apologise to the noble Earl and the Committee—I thought I had said it, but clearly I did not; I found out through a variety of means that I had not done so.

I will start by saying something else. Lots of people have made a lot of important points. As everybody in this Committee knows, I will consider them and how we take them forward. I cannot walk on water on these things and persuade everybody that I can do everything, but I hope your Lordships know that I will try to do as much as I can to take account of the various important points that have been made. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Faulks, that it is not a legal requirement; it is the recommendation of various reports that the Government seek to implement.

As your Lordships know, I like to make some informal remarks before I make formal remarks. Before I make the formal remarks, let me say for the sake of clarity that nobody in this Committee doubts the importance of the reserves, the cadets and the organisation, and the work of the lord-lieutenants and charities involved. Many of your Lordships do far more than even I do as a Minister to support those local organisations —the noble Lord, Lord De Mauley, is one of the best examples. Nobody seeks to undermine that or do anything that would somehow not ensure that it could carry on.

I was with the noble Lord, Lord Elliott—he was in his place a moment ago—in Enniskillen just on Saturday. The RAF show there that I went to support, with the reserves, the lord-lieutenants and the cadets, was phenomenal. It was absolutely phenomenal to see the work going on there. Nobody seeks to undermine or hinder that. This Saturday coming, I am going to Grantham for the reserves passout that is taking place there, because of its significance and importance. It does not matter whether it is the reserves; it does not matter whether it is the cadets. Ministerially, the noble Baroness, Lady Goldie, the noble Earl, Lord Minto, and the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, no doubt; the noble and gallant Lords, Lord Stirrup and Lord Craig, through their long and distinguished careers, the noble Lord, Lord Dannatt, through his, and many others—all of us have committed ourselves to pursue that purpose which is crucial to our nation. Whether it is Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland or the regions of England, it is crucial and fundamental to us that we do that. Each of the three reports which I will mention emphasise that. However, alongside that—the noble Lord, Lord De Mauley, is right, and I will reference it, that the PAC did say either/or—each of those reports said the current framework needs to be revised and looked at.

My view of this is that the national body creates strategic oversight for a structure that would allow the regional councils to be stronger and more purposeful in what they are doing, with the financial oversight and clarity that a strategic body would give them. That is how devolution works. You do not just let the mayors of the country do exactly what they want. A national strategic framework policy is set which allows those local bodies and local government to function—and to function effectively. That is what this seeks to do.

Again, before I make the formal remarks, let me reference what is on the face of the Bill. Yes, it is the establishment of the new body, the new RFCA, but also—I have to put my glasses on; it slows the rhetoric—on page 136, and then on to page 137, the Bill puts into primary legislation regional councils and how those are set up. It states—I will just say this for the noble Baroness, Lady Fraser:

“The RFCA must establish a committee for each area of the United Kingdom as may be specified in regulations”.


That would include Scotland, Wales and all those things. That is laid out there. It then goes on to the various regulations that can be made. We will deal with the various amendments about membership, about whether people are paid or unpaid, and other matters, but all those things will be dealt with in regulations. I realise that the debate then becomes about whether it should be primary or secondary legislation, but it is on the face of the Bill that they will be dealt with by regulations. I will make my formal remarks. Those regulations are in draft form at the moment. I will share those draft regulations with Members of the Committee before Report. Noble Lords can look at them and decide whether they answer some of the points that they would make, so that we will not have a situation, which sometimes happens with Governments, where draft regulations are just presented and you either vote for them or not, without any ability for people to properly scrutinise them and agree them or not.

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[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

My Lords, the amendments in the names of the noble Lords, Lord Harlech and Lord De Mauley, and the noble Baroness, Lady Penn, bring together a range of important issues. Clearly, we need to think about the impact on employers of reserves going on their training.

At Second Reading, the noble Baroness, Lady Dacres of Lewisham—who, sadly, cannot participate in Committee because she is now a Government Whip—spoke compellingly about the importance of reservists’ contribution in local government. She had seen the benefits of working with reservists and how that could contribute back into the workplace.

To pick up on the point made by the noble Lord, Lord De Mauley, there are ways in which we ought to be able to find synergies where the Armed Forces should look much more carefully at what skills the reserves are bringing to them, not simply having ticked off 10 days of repeat training. Perhaps there should be a day of repeat training and then working with the skills. Equally, there is a need to explain to employers the value of the training, because small and medium-sized enterprises might not be aware of the benefits that can accrue from employing reservists.

As the noble Baroness, Lady Fraser, said, the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Empey, will be raised in the next group. These amendments would appear to be desirable, certainly from the perspective of those in the reserves—I hope, for both recruitment and retention —but also potentially beneficial to employers, for exactly the reasons the noble Baroness, Lady Fraser, gave; that is, it is not simply a question of saying, “Please give us your time”, but one of giving clarity about the expectations. We almost need a template of what is required so that a small employer would be able to work out very quickly what was needed and individual reserves would not have to reinvent the wheel every time.

From these Benches, we support the amendments and hope that His Majesty’s Government might at least be able to listen. If they cannot accept the amendments as drafted, perhaps they might find a way of bringing amendments in lieu that would deal with some of these questions.

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, I shall also speak to Amendments 40, 41 and 45, tabled in the name of my noble friends Lord Harlech, Lord De Mauley and Lady Penn. My noble friend Lord Harlech has long been a doughty and most effective champion of our Reserve Forces. These Benches share his conviction that the reserves are indispensable to our national defence and deserve every reasonable support we can muster.

However, I am afraid that I must express some reservations about the amendments in this group and in the next. This is a genuine and very difficult balancing act. On the one side sits our duty to reservists and to employers, who already, at times, go beyond the call in supporting them. On the other sits our duty to the small and medium-sized businesses that make up the overwhelming majority of Britain’s employers and that are, right now, facing a cumulative weight of obligation that these amendments risk compounding rather than ameliorating.

Some 5.5 million businesses operate in this country, over 99% of which are small or medium-sized enterprises. Firms of the kind caught by the 50-employee threshold —or the 10-employee threshold in Amendment 41—are frequently the very smallest operations; they might be a family firm, a local manufacturer or a handful of tradesmen incorporated together. For a business of 10 employees, losing one member of staff for 10 working days a year for training could produce real strain on its workforce, potentially pushing back deadlines and damaging its ability to compete for contracts against larger rivals that can afford such absences more easily. It could also—this is quite dangerous—influence the willingness of employees and fellow workers to be generous with their attitude towards service. That is very important.

This cannot be considered in isolation from the wider climate in which small businesses currently operate. Businesses have had to suffer two years of this Government that have made their lives considerably harder, with the increases in employer national insurance contributions and the national living wage under the Employment Rights Act. That is the context in which we judge these amendments. We are not saying that reservists do not deserve support—indeed, quite the opposite—but we believe that the existing defence employer recognition scheme, built on voluntary best practice among gold and silver employers, achieves much of what these clauses seek without imposing statutory duties that might deter smaller firms from hiring reservists at all, the very outcome we all wish to avoid. I hope my noble friend will reflect on these concerns in the spirit in which they are offered, and I look forward to continuing this conversation as the Bill progresses.

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[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

My Lords, on this occasion I am going to split my remarks into separate comments, on Amendments 42 and 43. The principle has been very clearly outlined by the noble Lord, Lord Harlech. As the noble Baroness, Lady Penn, pointed out, that he has found a precedent in trade union legislation is very helpful. That people should somehow face detriment or constructive dismissal, but not direct dismissal, because of serving as a reservist is clearly something we, as a society, a Parliament and a Government, should try to avoid. If anything, we need to be finding ways to make it easier for people to be reservists, and easier for companies to understand the benefits of their being reservists.

I have some questions about the practicality of Amendment 44. The noble Lord, Lord Harlech, said, “Well, our friends and colleagues in Canada and Australia do something similar.” But if the self-employed reservist is a plumber and somebody says, “I really need your services. I have an urgent problem: there is a flood”, and the reservist is deployed or doing training, they cannot say, “Well, I’ll come back in a few months’ time and deal with your overflowing drains.” I am slightly puzzled by what the proposed new clause on refusal of employment on the grounds of membership of the service means in stating that

“it is unlawful to subject a member of the reserve forces to a detriment”.

I am just not quite sure how that would work in practice.

Although I can see that it is desirable to find ways to make it easier for self-employed people to serve in the reserves, equally, there needs to be a way of ensuring that they can be replaced in their work function, or that they can find a replacement themselves. It is not the same as somebody working for an employer, as the employer would be expected to find a temporary stop-gap. That is what we would be looking for.

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, I am again most grateful to my noble friends Lord Harlech, Lady Penn and Lord De Mauley for these amendments. As with my response to the last group, I completely share my noble friends’ desire to support the reserves wherever possible. I am absolutely not gloomy about the reserves at all; rather the opposite. I know that reserve training adds depth to any participant and, indeed, to any organisation that they might be part of. Unfortunately, I have concerns about these amendments. Between them, they would create new tribunal-enforceable duties on refusal of employment, extend protection against detriment short of dismissal, and place fresh obligations on businesses dealing with the self-employed and with partnerships. Taken together, that is a substantial new compliance burden to place on employers, many of them small businesses, at a time when they are already absorbing a great deal of regulatory change, as I have already established. I think it right to pause before adding further to that already pretty hefty burden.

Amendment 42 raises a further difficulty. It would make it unlawful to refuse employment to somebody who merely proposes to become a reservist. In practice, how is an employer to know that at the point of hiring? Unless a candidate volunteers information, there is no reliable way for an employer to be aware of an intention that exists only in someone’s plans, which makes the obligation very hard to comply with and harder still to enforce fairly. It is fundamentally my view that the commercial requirements of businesses, particularly small and medium-sized enterprises, must be our primary consideration. I hope my noble friends will reflect on these practical concerns, and I look forward to the Minister’s response.

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[Baroness Fraser of Craigmaddie (Con)]

My Lords, I do not propose to repeat what we said in an earlier debate in Committee, but I thank my noble friend Lord De Mauley for these amendments. I want to focus on Amendment 48 and the importance of volunteering.

The Sullivan report identified that a key strength of the RFCAs was their extensive volunteer membership. In every other part of our communities, we are doing everything we can to support volunteers and volunteering, and in times of tight financial straits especially, we seek to appreciate the knowledge of volunteers. I am afraid my heart sinks when I think of replacing the volunteers who represent the voice of our local regions, nations and communities. They bring experience and institutional memory, and they do it because they want to—and we are going to replace that with board appointments made on ministerial advice.

I am sure many colleagues in this House have experience of public appointments. I currently sit on two public bodies as a board member, to which I am appointed by one Scottish Minister and one Westminster Minister. We are subject to the whims of that department. In one case, DCMS has apparently decided that public appointments should serve for only one term. I leave it to you as to how that supports institutional memory and succession planning in our public bodies. At Creative Scotland, on whose board I sit, we are currently four or five board members short, and the public appointment process is so slow that we are not able to get to the front of the queue to fill those vacancies. So the idea that the wonderful volunteers we currently have supporting our reserve forces and cadets associations are going to be replaced by some sort of NDPB board appointments fills me with horror: we will end up with the usual suspects, rather than experienced and committed volunteers who are allowed to speak impartially, freely and frankly.

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

My Lords, I support these amendments, to which I have added my name. As the noble Lord, Lord De Mauley, and the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Stirrup, have pointed out, if we cannot remove Clause 38 and Schedule 6 then amending Clause 38 might at least ameliorate some of the issues. This would very much enable us to retain the local connections and, in particular, as the noble and gallant Lord pointed out, the importance of a wide footprint.

We have heard from the noble Lord, Lord Elliott, about the situation in Northern Ireland, and from the noble Baroness, Lady Fraser, about the situation in Scotland. Surely we should look for ways of ensuring that the voices of the nations and regions are all heard and not have a single centralised body that does not represent anybody. These amendments very much serve to ensure that the voices that we currently hear in the regional RFCAs can continue to play a role. In particular, Amendment 49 outlines key people who should be involved.

Will the Minister explain to the Committee whether he feels that Clause 38, as currently envisaged, and the idea of an NDPB really deal with the questions of representation? If not, and if he does not feel able to support the amendments as drafted, might he consider bringing back government amendments on these issues?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, I have already argued at some length that I do not believe that the Government’s proposed alterations to the characters of the reserve forces and cadets associations is sound policy. Much like my noble friend Lord De Mauley and the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Newnham, my preference, therefore, would be for those provisions to be removed from the Bill entirely. However, if that is not to happen then the second-best outcome would be for the various amendments suggested by my noble friend to be adopted, as a minimum.

Amendments 46 and 47, which my noble friend Lady Goldie has signed, would require the chairs of the currently constituted regional councils to sit as members of the new RFCA body. Amendment 49 would ensure that the wider membership of the RFCAs is not overlooked in the creation of the new body by requiring the regional councils to appoint members who are representatives of all the various organisations that work through the RFCAs.

Currently, the 13 chairs are entitled to a seat on the national board and those chairs are in turn elected by their membership. This structure ensures that the members of each RFCA are represented at the national level. However, as drafted, the Bill will remove that representation. This does not seem sound. The salutary story told by my noble friend Lord Howe of decline where local accountability is removed was poignantly salient, particularly since the Bill also provides for the establishment of regional councils. So the Government believe that there should be regional committees to help oversee and run the new body, but they do not believe that those regional councils should have any representation at the national level. This is surely a contradictory and indefensible position.

The Bill also fails to recognise the vital contribution of the voluntary membership of the RFCAs. As my noble friend Lord De Mauley pointed out, the Sullivan report itself highlighted the vitality of the voluntary membership to the organisation as a whole. However, this does not feature in the Government’s proposals. It is not as if the Government are blind to this: the strategic defence review proposed increasing the size of the reserves and the cadets and the creation of a new homeland defence force. That is not to forget the proposed move to a whole-of-society approach to defence readiness. At a time when the Government are claiming that they recognise the value of expanding the reserves and the cadets, it seems extraordinary that the RFCAs’ membership, which could do so much to assist the Government in their stated aims, should be abolished without replacement.

My noble friend has my full support in these amendments. If the Government are determined to press ahead with these negotiations then I hope that the Minister will seriously consider at least accepting these amendments before Report.