Ukraine

Baroness Smith of Newnham Excerpts

Monday 15th May 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Government for their Statement last week in the other place and for the opportunity to take it here today. As the House knows, His Majesty’s Official Opposition fully support the Government in the action they are taking to support Ukraine in its fight with Russia. We fully recognise that this is all our battle, a battle to maintain the international rules-based order, and that such aggression cannot and will not be tolerated.

Is not one of the greatest misjudgments that Putin made that Europe would not stand shoulder to shoulder with Ukraine, would not support Ukraine against this illegal Russian attack and, even if we did, that support would only be limited and for the short term? So, it was good to see the solidarity that President Zelensky has had, particularly this weekend in Italy and from France. But does the Minister agree that it was particularly good to see Germany promising an additional €2.7 million in military aid, and the German Defence Minister saying that it would provide help for

“as long as it takes”?

On collaboration, will the Minister update us on any recent discussions there have been with the United States and on its view of where we are at the present time?

On last week’s announcement, we support the announcement of the new military equipment, such as Storm Shadow. On Storm Shadow, can the Minister confirm that Ukraine has all the necessary planes to launch these weapons, given that, as we all know, they are air launched? Last week, President Zelensky said:

“Not everything has arrived yet … We are expecting armoured vehicles”.


Can the Minister update the Chamber as to whether all the promised equipment, including armoured vehicles, has now been delivered? I understand the Defence Minister said he was going to write to the shadow Defence Minister: is there any update on that?

We read in the media today that further weapons have been promised as a result of the welcome meeting today between the Prime Minister and President Zelensky at Chequers. Can the Minister confirm what these new promised weapons are, and what other agreements were discussed and made at Chequers today? How many long-range attack drones, for example, are to be sent, and are there air defence missiles in sufficient numbers to defend against Russia’s unrelenting and indiscriminate attacks?

Is it not important for us all to emphasise that these are defensive weapons, weapons developed to help Ukraine recover lost sovereign territory, not an attack on Russia itself? Of course, we support the announcements I just mentioned on drones and air defence weapons made today by the Prime Minister, but I just seek further clarity from the Minister this evening.

On fighter jets, can the Minister tell us when the announced training of Ukrainian pilots on western fighter jets will commence, and how many pilots we expect to train? We read today in the media, and indeed from the various press releases from No. 10, that the Prime Minister

“has promised to spearhead an international effort to secure fighter jets for Ukraine”.

Can the Minister explain which countries this means, and how he intends to do this? In other words, the Prime Minister has announced a so-called “jets coalition”. Can the Minister give us some more detail, particularly on any timescale and the types of jets we are talking about?

The Minister will also know of the role that the Wagner Group is playing in the war in Ukraine. What plans do the Government have to proscribe it, particularly as the Defence Secretary said that the Wagner Group

“does pose a threat to the United Kingdom and her allies, either directly or indirectly”?—[Official Report, Commons, 11/5/23; col. 478]

Finally, the will of the Ukrainian people has been immense and, frankly, inspirational. The Defence Secretary reminded us that it is day 442 of the conflict, with almost 8 million refugees and 6 million people internally forced from their homes. Some 23,000 Ukrainian civilians have been killed or wounded, with 6,000 children appallingly sent to so-called re-education camps. We need of course to provide the military aid that is needed and to do so, as we are doing, proportionately and sensibly, but, alongside that, does the Minister agree that we must continue to support the Ukrainian men, women and children who are also on the front line with all the help that they need?

President Putin chose to invade Ukraine and its sovereign territory. He must continue to know that we in the West, with the UK at the forefront, will continue to stand for freedom, democracy, human rights and the rule of law. We should stand by the people of Ukraine and continue to support them as they defend their country. As I say, their fight is our fight.

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

My Lords, from these Benches, as so often when we discuss Ukraine or other defence matters, I endorse wholeheartedly everything that has been said by the noble Lord, Lord Coaker. Therefore, rather than re-iterating the questions he has raised, I will ask a few more about what is going on on the ground in Ukraine.

Like the noble Lord, I obviously welcome this Statement, and we endorse what His Majesty’s Government have been doing in terms of support for Ukraine. It was very clear when Boris Johnson was Prime Minister how far the United Kingdom supported Ukraine and stood shoulder to shoulder. It was not immediately clear that that was followed through, and I think that today it has become very clear that Rishi Sunak as Prime Minister really does understand the importance of supporting Ukraine to the largest extent possible.

The Secretary of State for Defence has said on numerous occasions that the Statements he makes are deemed to be “proportionate”. I would be grateful if the Minister could explain to the House, as the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, has asked, what precisely is being offered today and what more His Majesty’s Government expect to do. I initially had this Statement as a “check against delivery” document which had a nice little bit in red which said, in square brackets, “blank for announcement”. The announcement is covered in Hansard, but even Hansard from last Thursday has been overtaken by the discussions today, so I think the House would welcome an understanding of what is happening in terms of drones and long-range missiles.

I particularly wanted to ask what discussions His Majesty’s Government may be having, not just with NATO partners but within the UN, about some of the war crimes being perpetrated. The Secretary of State’s Statement talked about the casualties, but also various war crimes. In particular, one of the issues that we have seen in Syria, and which we are seeing again now in Ukraine, is the bombardment of healthcare facilities. What assessment have His Majesty’s Government made of the actions of Russia in this regard, and to what extent is it possible to already begin to make a case? Those victims—innocent children and others who are in hospital facilities—really need to be looked at as a matter of urgency. Clearly, as the noble Lord, Lord Coaker said, we also support the men on the front line and the women and children who may be at home, but that wanton attack on healthcare facilities is unspeakable. Equally, there have been attacks on energy facilities and nuclear power facilities, and I wonder what activity His Majesty’s Government are undertaking to support Ukraine in making sure its infrastructure is secure. Beyond the military hardware and the training, are His Majesty’s Government are able to provide additional support on the ground in that regard—we obviously know about the humanitarian aid.

Like the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, I conclude by supporting the work that has been done by His Majesty’s Government and our service personnel in helping train the Ukrainians.

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Baroness Goldie) (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, and the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, for the tenor of their remarks. I welcome their support. I think one of the most important demonstrations of this political unanimity is evidenced by the response of the noble Baroness, the noble Lord and their counterparts in the other place. I think that sends a powerful message from the UK that Putin has to understand—the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, made the point—that we are not just absolutely joined together in the UK but are playing our role with our allies and partners; it is that aggregate effect which is having such a detrimental impact on Putin’s illegal war.

The noble Lord, Lord Coaker, praised Germany. I absolutely agree with that; it is a very welcome augmentation of all the help that has been given. I think the noble Lord asked me specifically about recent discussions between the UK and the United States. I cannot comment on specific detail, but I can say that we are regularly in communication and, of course, at the various international fora because we have the G7 imminently approaching. Of course, there will be further discussions with the US there.

The noble Lord, Lord Coaker, asked about Storm Shadow, which is an air launch capability, and whether Ukraine has sufficient planes to mount that. My understanding is that it has. I cannot comment specifically on operational activity, but I would seek to reassure the Chamber that that capability is up, ready and capable of action with immediate effect.

The noble Lord asked a specific question which I think his colleague in the other place, the right honourable John Healey, asked, about whether all armoured vehicles have been delivered. I know that a lot of them have been delivered, but I do not have the precise details, so I will undertake to write to noble Lords once I am aware of the content of the response being delivered by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State.

There were some specific questions about the nature of what was announced today. Today was indeed a very exciting day for the United Kingdom and, I hope, for President Zelensky. Once again, we commend President Zelensky for his unflagging dedication to his country and his unflagging energy and tireless efforts to continue to beat the drum, to go around potential donors and try to make them aware, as acutely as he can, of what the need is and how immediately that has to be responded to. I think today was a case in point.

Of the further provisions that were announced today, these are air defence missiles and unmanned aerial systems; that includes hundreds of new long-range attack drones. I have a little more specific information about that. The unmanned aerial systems will improve the Armed Forces of Ukraine’s ability to find targets, to improve accuracy of artillery fire, to resupply AFU personnel operating across the front lines and to disrupt Russian logistics and command nodes.

I understand that the longer-range attack drones will deliver a kinetic effect comparable to an artillery shell, but they will extend the range at which Ukraine can target and disrupt Russian activity. In a sense, that complements what is a pretty mighty weapon in the form of Storm Shadow. Your Lordships will be aware that that has a very pronounced lethality effect. That is precisely why we think that is what Ukraine needs now to deal with this relentless onslaught by the Russian forces as they seek to prosecute their illegal occupation.

The noble Lord, Lord Coaker, sought clarification that all of these armaments and different types of weaponry being made available by the United Kingdom to Ukraine are clearly donated for defensive purposes. They are. Indeed, there is nothing provocative about this. The United Kingdom is absolutely clear: our responsibility is to help Ukraine to defend itself. That has been our consistent approach to all this. Of course, this illegal war could end tomorrow if Russia agreed to stop it and to withdraw from its illegal occupation.

The noble Lord had a question about the training on the fighter jets. I have some information on that. I am given to understand that, this summer, we will commence an elementary flying phase for cohorts of Ukrainian pilots to learn basic training. As your Lordships will understand, the plane we are now talking about is the F16. That is not part of the UK’s capability, but apparently we are able to adapt the programme used by UK pilots to provide Ukrainians with piloting skills that they can apply to a different kind of aircraft. That training goes hand in hand with UK efforts, which are continuing, to work with other countries on providing F16 jets, which are now declared to be Ukraine’s fighter jet of choice. As to more specific information about the training programme, I can only undertake to investigate further; if I learn more I will undertake to inform your Lordships.

The noble Lord specifically raised the Wagner Group, which we all agree is a brutal and repugnant organisation. If the Government are considering proscribing any organisation, they do not comment on whether that is under consideration. However, I can say to your Lordships that significant measures have already been taken against the Wagner Group; that includes sanctioning Yevgeny Prigozhin and his family, and Dmitry Utkin, who are leading personnel within the Wagner Group. We are very clear about our desire to do everything we can to disable the Wagner Group. As I said, it is an entirely repugnant organisation, and your Lordships will be aware of the at times appalling conduct in which it has engaged.

The noble Lord asked specifically about the help we have been able to give on the humanitarian front, and specifically about how we are helping Ukraine to look to the future. It is very important, and signifies a note of optimism, that people are thinking about the future. The UK has been a leading bilateral humanitarian donor, with a £220 million package of humanitarian aid. We have also given a significant amount—about £75 million—of fiscal support grant and a £100 million grant to support Ukraine’s energy security reforms. Importantly, with our Ukrainian friends we will co-host the 2023 Ukraine recovery conference in June. We plan to mobilise public and private finance to ensure that Ukraine gets the vital reconstruction investment that it needs.

I might just mention that current UK recovery activity is focused on immediate needs, such as demining and the restoration of essential infrastructure and services. That includes support for the Halo Trust, which has demined more than 55,000 square metres of land, and a £10 million aid package to help Ukrainian Railways to repair damaged rail infrastructure.

The noble Baroness, Lady Smith, asked about war crimes and quite rightly raised the absolutely disgraceful and atrocious bombardment by Russian forces of innocent civilian facilities, whether that is dwelling houses of individuals or healthcare facilities, all of which is appalling and completely unacceptable. As she will be aware, we have been doing everything we can to support the International Criminal Court in the pursuit of its important work. I think we are all very clear that war crimes have been committed. The International Criminal Court has issued a warrant for arrest and we are supporting it. Interestingly, alongside the United States and the European Union, we have established the Atrocity Crimes Advisory Group in support of Ukraine’s domestic war crimes prosecutions.

The final point that was raised related to an important observation by the noble Baroness about the Secretary of State, my right honourable friend Ben Wallace, making proportionate Statements. I am absolutely clear and he has been at pains to articulate, as he did when he was dealing with the Statement in the other place, that all of this is about giving a proportionate response to enable Ukraine to defend itself in answer to brutal, absolutely objectionable and appalling behaviour by the illegal invading Russian forces.

I hope I have managed to deal with the principal points raised, but if there is anything I have omitted I shall undertake to write.