Northern Ireland Troubles (Legacy and Reconciliation) Bill

Debate between Baroness Smith of Basildon and Lord Morrow

Committee stage
Tuesday 31st January 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Morrow (DUP)]

My Lords, I think we have to be grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, who has pointed out something very significant. I suspect many have not noticed it but, with her forensic mind, she has drawn our attention to the fact that “victim” is mentioned only twice in the Bill. That has concerned my party for quite some time. We have always contended —I know it has been said by others—that this Bill should have victims at its heart and soul. That is what it should be about.

It has to be remembered that more than 3,000 people were killed. I do not cast them all as victims because there were those who were caught in their own explosions and blew themselves to pieces, so judgment was swift there, but I include all innocent victims from whatever side—I care little about it—of the community they may have come. However, I am firmly of the opinion, as are others, that this Bill is not amendable. Maybe we would have done this House, the Minister and everybody else more justice if we had not put in any amendments and had said, “This is just not doable.”

I see that even the Minister’s own Back-Benchers have, to all intents and purposes, forsaken him. He cannot just blame the Opposition, the Lib Dems, the Cross-Benchers or the DUP—and we often get blamed for everything. He will have to blame his own side for not coming in and covering his back this evening; but I do not lay the blame at his feet. I believe that he is here with some degree of reluctance. He has been asked to steer a Bill in which I do not think he has great confidence; having listened to everybody this evening, I think he will go home with even less.

I certainly support the noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan. As I said earlier, we owe her a debt for pointing out very clearly that “victim” is mentioned twice; I do not think we need to hear much more.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, having had a long debate, we are now moving at pace. These are interesting amendments. Just as the immunity debate went to the heart of the Bill, in many ways this one does as well. Although we have not seen victims mentioned much in the Bill, it is entitled the Northern Ireland Troubles (Legacy and Reconciliation) Bill, and if victims are not at the heart of what we do here, it is hard to see how reconciliation follows. That is what prompted the amendments before us today.

I have said before in this place that one of the most profound experiences I had was as victims and survivors Minister for Northern Ireland, which I did for about two and a half years. There is not a homogenous design whereby you can say, “Victims want this.” Different people have had different experiences, and different things have happened to them in different ways. There is not one experience whereby everyone can say, “Yes, that is how I feel; this is what I want.” They are looking for different things, and that is what makes this so complex and these amendments so important.

As has been noted, some will be saying, “We want justice. We know who is responsible. There should be action.” Others say, “I just need to know the truth. I want to know what happened”, because the agony of not knowing is so great. In some cases, knowing what happened creates additional agony. I remember a discussion where the truth for one individual was going to be awful. They wanted it and needed it, but it was not a pleasant experience for them in any way at all. Others just want acknowledgement that this is what they and their families went through. When we are talking about victims and survivors, one thing that was brought home to us all by those we met during the process of this Bill is that the trauma of what happened can survive several generations. It is not just the individual who has been through the experience of the Troubles; the family can be affected, whether financially, emotionally or physically.

This group of amendments is really helpful and goes to the heart of what the Bill should be about. Possibly the biggest failure of the Government is not recognising that. There have been a lot of warm words for the Minister, and they are well deserved, but he is there to support the Government in defending this Bill and he may be disappointed that only one member of his party is behind him to offer support. We have all been there; it can be a lonely experience on the Front Bench in those circumstances—although I am not sure I have ever been in quite the same circumstances. That is why, if he cannot say tonight that he will accept these amendments, it would do the Government well if he can say what he will bring forward to address the issues that have been raised.

My noble friends Lord Murphy and Lady Ritchie have signed these amendments, which allow family members to provide a victim impact statement as part of the review process. Without that, this will be one of the biggest failures of the Bill—and we have mentioned many tonight.

The Bill allows family members to refer cases and make general representations, but it is not clear what the family member gains from that process. If, as the noble Baroness, Lady Suttie, has proposed, the Bill explicitly allows statements and for the proper resourcing of that process, that would go some way towards some resolution of that issue. It would not go the whole way; I think the Bill is so badly drafted and ill-conceived that it cannot address all the issues. The noble Lord made the point that has been made many times today in every part of the Bill: we would not start from here, but as Members of this House we have a duty to do what we can and fulfil our role—though I have been struck by how many of the individuals and organisations that I have spoken to have said they almost feel they are compromising their own integrity by bringing forward and suggesting amendments and changes to us.

I commend my noble friend Lord Hain on the different approach that he has taken. It is not one that I had considered before and I would be interested to hear the Minister’s comments on it. My noble friend is suggesting that we amend the code for prosecutors, and he talks about how that could be done: it would take account of

“the likelihood of the accused re-offending … the time elapsed since the offence … the volume and seriousness of the crime, and … the character and behaviour of the accused since offending.”

The code would have to

“ensure that the views, interests and well-being of victims, and of the families of deceased victims, are considered when determining whether criminal proceedings should be instituted for a Troubles-related offence.”

I will be interested to hear what the Minister has to say on that tonight. If he cannot give any satisfaction then I hope he will agree to have further meetings so that we can progress it. It seems to me that this is one of the biggest failings of the Bill, and it is what has caused so much upset and unhappiness among those who will be affected by this legislation.

Northern Ireland (Ministers, Elections and Petitions of Concern) Bill

Debate between Baroness Smith of Basildon and Lord Morrow

Committee stage
Monday 13th December 2021 Grand Committee

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, I rise only briefly on this issue to concur with some of the comments that have been made. As the noble Baroness, Lady Suttie, said, there is always some hesitation on the part of those who were not there to revisit some of these issues. The noble Lord, Lord Rogan, made a point about those who compromised and found that the Belfast/Good Friday agreement was not perfect. Perfection can often be the enemy of any progress at all, so I have enormous admiration for those who were able to compromise to reach what has been a long-standing and impressive agreement. Along with others who have spoken, I put on record my tributes to those who were mentioned.

I saw the Minister wince slightly when the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, talked about how much more confidence he has that there may be some progress on various issues now that the Minister is there. My only comment is: no pressure there then. I could tell him not to worry about it, because this is an issue where people want to and can find agreement, and there is always good will in the discussions. I remember, during direct rule, when I took over from the noble Lord, Lord Empey, that he was nothing but courteous and helpful to me when I was making my way as a Minister in Northern Ireland.

We are very supportive of what the noble Baronesses, Lady Ritchie and Lady Suttie, and the noble Lords, Lord Empey and Lord Rogan, are trying to achieve with these amendments. There is value to a more consensual approach to this, as the noble Lord, Lord Trimble, outlined, but I suspect the Minister will say that this discussion is for outside this Bill, because the Bill is to progress issues in the NDNA. Nevertheless, I think there is an opportunity for the Minister to reflect on the comments that have been made. Even if they are not for this Bill, there could and should be discussions on them to see if further progress can be made and if there are benefits to taking such an approach.

[Lord Morrow (DUP)]

My Lords, I am listening intently to this debate and I am beginning to wonder if I live in Northern Ireland at all or if I lived there during the making of the Belfast agreement. We have heard all the woes being poured on to the St Andrews agreement. That is unkind to say the least. If politics has been—and it is—sectarianised in Northern Ireland, it was the Belfast agreement that did that. The Belfast agreement said, “You must nominate as a unionist or a nationalist”. That did not come out of St Andrews; it was the brainchild of the Belfast agreement.

Furthermore, during the early stages of the Government and the Assembly in Northern Ireland, it was all stop-go. The Assembly was more in abeyance than it was working at that time. It has to be said—I am not sure that it gives me a lot of pleasure to say it—that during the time when Peter Robinson and Martin McGuinness were First and Deputy First Ministers there was more cohesion within the Assembly and it had a longer duration of continued government. It was also Peter Robinson and Martin McGuinness who had to stand together and condemn the shooting of a police officer by dissident republicans. Those of us who live there can well remember that. Those were extremely difficult times. If there ever was a time when government could have fallen apart, it was at that time, but it was due to the influence of Peter Robinson and the late Martin McGuinness that government continued, though not without difficulties.

I hasten to add that I do not think there will ever come a day when anyone, irrespective of what position they take, can stand confidently and say, “The Assembly is here for ever and a day.” I have said that often in public meetings. It is the type of animal that is going to be always trying and will come through its difficulties. But please do not say that all the problems emanate from the St Andrews agreement. That remark does not sit well at all.

There are those who want to blame some other exercise for the position that the Assembly finds itself in from time to time. Decommissioning has been mentioned. We, and those who wanted to listen, were told that the release of republican prisoners was never in the agreement. I think that the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, was the closest to it when he said that he had conditioned it by saying that if that had to happen—I do not want to misquote him—then it was on the proviso that the weaponry that was used would be decommissioned and put away. Let me say this clearly: when decommissioning did not happen and the prisoners were released, we were told that that was never signed up to. Let us not paint a picture that was not real at that time. I know that, when you look back on these things with hindsight, you can think things through and say, “Well, we should have done this and we should have done that.” Maybe we are all in that position from time to time, but let us not paint it as if it was something different.

European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Bill

Debate between Baroness Smith of Basildon and Lord Morrow

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard continued) & Committee stage & Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard continued): House of Lords
Tuesday 14th January 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, this has been an interesting debate, and I do not think its implications could at any point be overestimated. I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Hain, who moved the amendment on behalf of the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie of Downpatrick. Noble Lords will be aware that she has a family funeral tomorrow and has to be back in Northern Ireland this evening. I think she would have been very pleased to hear the detailed, comprehensive explanation given by my noble friend Lord Hain of the implications of the Government’s legislation and the amendments that have been suggested tonight.

It is worth saying that we are having this debate against a backdrop of a changing political situation in Northern Ireland, one that all of us wholeheartedly welcome, which is the return of the Assembly and the Executive. I congratulate the Minister, his colleague the Secretary of State and the Northern Ireland parties because compromise was essential to get to this point. It could not have been achieved had not all parties come together, as we have seen in the past, to compromise to ensure that the Assembly is up and running again and the Executive has been established.

It is in that spirit of compromise that I appeal to the Minister tonight, because it is only by having the kind of compromise that has returned the Assembly and the Executive that we can make progress on this issue. We know—and people in Northern Ireland have been told—that the message from this Bill is no compromise, no amendments, nothing must change. That is a wholly unacceptable way to approach any legislation. The noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Eames, said that people will say this is special pleading for Northern Ireland. I do not think it is. It is pleading not to make life more difficult than it is going to be already. If the Northern Ireland political parties can compromise in the way we have heard about from the noble Lord, Lord McCrea, I am sure the Government can take a step in that direction as well. I am slightly concerned that there has been no Statement from the Government about the progress made in Northern Ireland. I hope one will be forthcoming shortly.

If anybody in government is concerned that this is a series of amendments about not accepting the result of the referendum—my noble friend Lord Hain and the noble Lord, Lord Bruce, made this point—if it were not for accepting the result of the referendum, these amendments would not be required. It is because we are leaving the EU that they are so essential.

I do not want to go through the purpose and the details already outlined by other noble Lords; I want just to re-emphasise three points. First, as the noble Lord, Lord McCrea, said, these amendments have not just cross-party support, but all-party and none support from people in Northern Ireland. I have not come across anything from anybody in Northern Ireland that says that the purpose behind these amendments is something they reject. It is universal. The Government have to listen to that. The people on the ground understand the implications of Brexit. Whether they support Brexit or not, they still support these amendments.

Secondly—this point has been made—this reflects the promises and commitments that the Government have made to the people of Northern Ireland. We all know that the Prime Minister gets a bit flamboyant during election campaigns, but let us bring it back to what he actually said. Basically, he said, “There will be no checks or tariffs, and if anyone has a problem with that, come and see me—phone me about it”. If that is the case, will the Government publish the phone numbers of the Prime Minister and his deputy, Dominic Cummings, so that people can phone them directly? Nobody is clear about the situation and there is a great deal of mistrust when flamboyant statements are made with no facts behind them.

Thirdly, Northern Ireland needs a level playing field if it is to protect businesses and consumers, as all of us in this House will understand. A trade expert, Professor Alan Winters, has undertaken an analysis that concludes that, taking into account both GB and international goods, a total of 75% of Northern Ireland’s imports could be subject to EU tariffs on arrival. That is a phenomenal amount. It will be damaging to the economy, as we have heard—I will say more on that in a moment—and it will also be quite complicated. Perhaps the Minister can comment on how this will work, but my understanding is that goods entering Northern Ireland from Great Britain and deemed at risk of being moved to the Republic will be subject to tariffs, but those could be rebated if it could be shown that the goods were consumed in Northern Ireland. How on earth is that going to work? Are we going to check what is consumed or part consumed? It is a recipe for disaster for the economy.

The integrity of Northern Ireland as part of the UK internal market is integral to the success of the Northern Ireland economy. To put additional costs on the economy, whether on the consumer or on businesses, is completely unacceptable. Looking at the political and financial implications of what is being proposed, the Government need to give absolute clarity that there will be unfettered access on trade. If they are unable to do that, they have to accept the amendments.

I say to the Minister that I do not think that the Government’s approach is good enough. I know that he will have a folder of briefing notes. I have been there—I have been a Minister. The notes on the amendment say “resist”, but there are times when that is the wrong course of action. It is not good enough to say that we need a clean Bill. We have heard that in this House before. These amendments can help the Government. They assist them in what they are seeking to do and they assist Northern Ireland. There is no good reason to oppose them, other than trying to take a macho approach to the legislation, but that just will not work. I am sure that the Minister personally is sympathetic, but we need more than warm words. We need to know that the Government are prepared to accept the amendments or come forward with their own suite of amendments.

[Lord Morrow (DUP)]

My Lords, I should like to speak before the Minister responds. I want to make a few brief remarks, not least on what has already been said. In Northern Ireland we are continually lectured and told, “If you could only speak with one voice, how different things would be.” However, we speak as one voice tonight. We speak not only politically, but for the business community, and I include all those who have spoken on this matter.

I know that the Minister is a listening man, but I want him to go a step further and implement the proposed changes. The noble Lord, Lord Hain, the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, the noble Lords, Lord Bruce and Lord Empey, my noble friend Lord McCrea and others have said very clearly what Northern Ireland expects. We must be allowed to function as a country and as a trading partner with the rest of the United Kingdom.

There is no doubt—and those who do not agree with my politics at all have clearly outlined—that what we are being told by the Prime Minister is one thing, but actions always speak louder than words. We need the Prime Minister, the Government and the Minister, the noble Lord, Lord Duncan, to take on board very clearly that there are serious issues at stake here.

It is ironic that one part of the United Kingdom will have a border with the rest of the United Kingdom. How can that ever be right? Even common sense will tell us that that is not functional; it will just not work.

It has already been stated that Northern Ireland’s economy is built on a multiplicity of small businesses—those which employ and engage fewer than 10 people. That is what our economy is built on; that is the backbone of our economy. We do not disparage the large companies that bring massive employment to our shores, but it has to be said clearly, and I do not exaggerate when I say it this evening, that those small businesses are watching every move, because their future is at stake—not only their future, but that of many homes.

It is no secret that wages in Northern Ireland are lower than those in other regions of the United Kingdom. Many families struggle. Many are in the poverty trap. Many live on the margins, as I call it. Are they not deserving to be treated equally? Is there not a strong case for saying that we need to look at this again? As my colleague and noble friend Lord McCrea has said, there is an ocean of difference in the meaning of the word “may” as compared to the word “must”, which the noble Lord, Lord Hain, has asked to be put in. You have an option if you may; you do not have that option if you must.

I concur with those who have said that this is not in any way a wrecking attempt. We know where we are in the whole Brexit debate. We know where we were in relation to Brexit. This is not a last-gasp, desperate attempt to do something over the Government. This can be implemented very easily and respectfully. I associate those remarks with the amendment in my name and the names of my three colleagues. We have absolutely no difficulty in supporting the amendments that have been tabled, and I trust that there will be no difficulty in supporting our amendment. It is there for the right reasons; there is nothing sinister about it. We are absolutely sincere. I plead with this House and with the Government to take it sincerely, because there is so much at stake.

Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) Bill

Debate between Baroness Smith of Basildon and Lord Morrow

Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 17th July 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Morrow]

When we talked about amendments being “outside of scope”, we were talking directly about the other House.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

This House has no remit over what the other House says is in scope, but I am sure the clerks and the Speaker would act in a similar way. Perhaps I can help the noble Lord, Lord McCrea—

Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) Bill

Debate between Baroness Smith of Basildon and Lord Morrow

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 15th July 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

My Lords, perhaps the noble Lord, Lord Morrow, might like to speak, because his clause stand part debate is grouped with these amendments.

[Lord Morrow (DUP)]

Yes, I wish to speak to Amendment 20, which is part of the first grouping. I understand that the groupings are not binding. If the noble Baroness is suggesting that I make my speech now, I will take the opportunity. I am quite content to do so and thank her very much.

We hear much about the Northern Ireland Assembly deciding this by a majority of one, but we do not hear much about when the Northern Ireland Assembly decided by a very comfortable majority that there should be no change in the abortion laws in Northern Ireland. If it is important how the Assembly voted on same-sex marriage, is it not also important how it votes on every other issue, namely abortion? There were strong feelings expressed here on Wednesday about the manner in which the other place amended a Bill which was intended to change the date by which an election in Northern Ireland has to be called and made into a Bill that brings in sweeping reforms relating to abortion.

We know that abortion is a devolved matter; we know that the clerks in the other place had advised that the amendments were out of scope; we know that this Bill was subject to a fast-track procedure—making it wholly inappropriate to deal with such a matter as abortion; we know that in 2016 the Northern Ireland Assembly voted by a clear majority not to change the law in any way, and we know that a ComRes poll shows that 64% of the people of Northern Ireland oppose Westminster legislation for Northern Ireland on this matter, rising to 66% of women and 72% of 18 to 32 year-olds. We also know‘ that all the main denominations in Northern Ireland oppose any change in the law—the Presbyterian Church, which is the largest denomination, the Roman Catholic Church, the Methodist Church, and the Church of Ireland—as do all the minor denominations which, added together, would make one major denomination, probably the third largest Protestant denomination in Northern Ireland.

However, these things do not seem to be important. The Commons saw fit none the less to impose Clause 9 on this Bill. It has to be said, of course, that 100% of Northern Ireland MPs who take their seats voted against the provision. Quite apart from the substance of the issue, as a matter of procedural fair play it is hard to imagine a better expression of being treated beneath contempt. To really appreciate the significance of this, we must turn to the substance of the issue and recognise that abortion is a far more sensitive issue in Northern Ireland than in any other part of the United Kingdom; others have alluded to this. We must recognise that many people in Northern Ireland are very attached to our abortion laws; I might add that they are the most up to date of any region of the United Kingdom.

The Both Lives Matter report, which shows that 100,000 people are alive in Northern Ireland today who would otherwise not be, is hugely important. I realise that the Government have not created this problem. Their response, however, has the capacity to make things better or infinitely worse. The Minister suggested last week that there were some difficulties with Clause 9, but rather than acting as he should to moderate their effect, my reading of what he said was that the Government were interested in helping to rescue the provisions and possibly create a new power not based on Section 26. That would be wholly wrong because the amendment in another place that sought to create a new power—that is, new Clause 5—was not selected for debate and because the Government cannot introduce new offences without contradicting the Sewel convention. I am a wee bit disturbed today that there has been very little mention of respect for the Sewel convention.