Environment and Climate Change Committee
Debate between Baroness Smith of Basildon and Lord Balfe
Lord Balfe (Con)
I have one question, and a couple of observations, on what will probably be the Senior Deputy Speaker’s last outing in this House. I am sure we all admire the work that he has done in his many years in the job.
The withdrawal agreement from the EU provides for the establishment of a joint parliamentary committee between the British Parliament and the European Parliament. I wonder whether the Senior Deputy Speaker can give us any information as to how the House of Lords is to be represented in that committee, and whether we will be taking one of either the chair or the three vice-chairs of that committee. I happen to know, because I wear several hats in this game, that the European Parliament has already decided on its chair and vice-chairs, so I just wonder what we are doing, who is leading for us and how it will fit into that structure.
My second point is that we seem to have again arrived at this position through some sort of magical mystery tour. We are told that the Committee of Selection has done this, but who has it approached? I have not seen anything. I have not been asked whether I would like to serve on a committee. How do these names come forward? I suggest that they come forward because all that we say about this being a self-regulating House is basically a load of old rubbish. The leadership runs this House. We are pushed around in whatever way a very small group of people chooses. It really is as simple as that.
I would like the Senior Deputy Speaker to follow the great tradition of leaving a note for one’s successor. He does not need to leave a note saying that there is no money left, but I think he could well leave a note saying that there is a call from some quarters—they may be unrepresentative, but I would certainly like to see it—for much greater democratisation.
In the other place, the chairs of committees are allocated to the political groups and then elected by the whole House on the basis that it can look and decide what the competencies are of those committees and the chairs can have the confidence of the House. They are not plucked out of some magical hat somewhere. I would like to see that procedure extended to this House. Clearly it cannot be done in this resolution, but I am getting a bit fed up with constantly going on about this. If the issue comes back yet again, with another series of committees and no movement whatever, I might just be tempted to divide the House—although I would lose—to prove that there are probably at least two people who support what I have got to say.
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
My Lords, I had not intended to speak but will say just a brief word. I cannot speak for the noble Lord’s party, but I assure him that we on these Benches have a very open process of selection for committees. All Members are notified of committee vacancies; they are asked to apply and, in consultation, the Chief Whip makes a decision and our group discusses it. He obviously has grievances with his own group, for which I cannot speak, but I am looking at my colleagues behind me and know that they do not share those grievances.
Conduct Committee Report
Debate between Baroness Smith of Basildon and Lord Balfe(3 years, 5 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Lord Balfe (Con)
My view is that all money received by Members of the House of Lords should be declared. This report tries to do what is virtually impossible, which is to lay down a code of conduct that, by its own nature, is vague. I have a number of questions.
As regards the guidance on dealing with lobbyists, the report states:
“Members should be especially cautious when coming into contact with representatives of corrupt or repressive regimes”.
The noble and learned Lord who introduced the report is a lawyer. He will know that the word “representatives” is certainly capable of challenge. What is a representative? What is a corrupt regime? What is a repressive regime? Is Hungary a repressive regime? If someone is in contact with a representative of the Hungarian Government, at what level does the rule apply? Is the ambassador of Hungary a representative of a repressive regime? This report is shot through with problems.
The next page covers the level of remuneration in respect of the interests falling within this category that need to be disclosed only where they are received from the Governments of foreign states. What do we mean by “foreign states” or “controlled by”? Is Huawei controlled by the Chinese Government, as is alleged by some, or is it not controlled by them, as is said by the Chinese Government? What about what I would call “parastatal” regimes—in other words, bodies that are set up at arm’s length by Governments such as the British Government to provide services? Is Serco a parastatal regime and company, or is it not? This is just not good enough.
On applying for exemptions, how will we explain to the British public that Members of the House of Lords can take earnings from organisations and not declare them? That is what this says: earnings do not have to be declared because of confidentiality. We can have confidential agreements made by legislators who can subsequently intervene on legislation, but there is no public record of that. It is not good enough.
My final point is about
“disposing once in respect of each financial year.”
If I visit Turkey, which I did not so long ago, I have to declare that within two months. Why, if we have this system, could someone earn money in May 2021 and not have to declare it until January 2023? Why the sudden difference? I do not think that this is acceptable.
I will not vote against the report because that is not the done thing, but I do not think that it answers the question that was put before it, which is to make the proceedings of this House and the activities of its Members more transparent. I am sorry to rock the boat again, but these things need to be said.
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Brown of Eaton-under-Heywood. I have two points: both have been touched on by the noble Lord, Lord Balfe, but in a slightly different way. I have a query about paragraph 16 of the report which states:
“Members should be especially cautious when coming into contact with representatives of corrupt or repressive regimes, ensuring that they uphold the integrity of the parliamentary process and the reputation of the House of Lords at all times.”
That is a bit unclear—I am not sure what it means or who would make that decision.
My other point is on the paragraph about confidentiality, which might more appropriately be called exemptions. The noble and learned Lord might be able to help me to understand this. The report states:
“We are aware that in a small number of professions there is a duty of confidentiality”—
I can think of only one, which is the medical profession, and I am not sure whether the others might possibly be to do with the legal profession. The report goes on
“which would make it difficult for members to disclose the identity of the government”
but then proposes that
“members … would be able to apply for an exemption from the registration requirement.”
Does that mean that they would not have to register anything at all, not even having received any money if that was the case? I can understand that there might be an element of confidentiality, although I struggle to understand whether that is essential, but I do not see why that should completely exempt Members from the registration requirement.
I also have concerns about the personal services company element because I am not clear about how it will work. The report states that Members
“need to register the type of client involved but without naming the particular client in question.”
I am not convinced that that is 100% helpful to the House or to those looking at this, but my main question is who makes the decision. In paragraph 9 under definitions, it states:
“Although the Registrar may be consulted, members will be responsible for judging whether an organisation or individual meets this definition, and in case of doubt they should err on the side of registration.”
The noble and learned Lord, Lord Brown, helpfully said that the Conduct Committee will issue guidance for the registrar, but I am not clear who will make the decision that an exemption is appropriate. Given that exemption brings with it the opportunity not to make any form of registration at all or to provide any information, I would like some clarity on who will make the decision. If it is the same as in paragraph 9, which states that the individual Member can make that decision, that seems somewhat unhelpful to this House and to the issue of transparency.
I will not seek to divide the House or to vote against the Motion because it is an important step forward and there are a lot of areas in which the report is helpful, but I would like clarity on those points if the noble and learned Lord is able to give them to me.
Hereditary Peers’ By-elections
Debate between Baroness Smith of Basildon and Lord Balfe
Lord Balfe (Con)
We are clearly a long way from being back to normal. I endorse everything said by my noble friend Lord Cormack, because we need to get back to normal. We could get many more people in this Chamber, but we also need some willpower behind the need to get back to normal. A certain lassitude and reluctance to get things done seems to have descended on us. We certainly should not be having by-elections until we get back to normal. The Procedure and Privileges Committee will meet in December, I believe—certainly before this new Motion expires on New Year’s Eve. The middle of a vacation does not, in any case, seem a very good date for it to expire, particularly since the Deputy Lord Speaker may, in the tradition of his country, be somewhat busy on New Year’s Eve.
I would like the Procedure and Privileges Committee to look at the need for these by-elections and whether we should make time for the Grocott Bill to be heard. I listened to what the noble Lord, Lord Newby, had to say, but the Grocott Bill will not remove a single Peer from this House: it allows them to die away, over the course of half a century. Some would say that that is an extremely generous way to treat them, but it has nothing to do with the Conservative Party.
We have to start standing up for ourselves. My noble friend Lord Cormack made reference to the Library and the rule brought in when Queen Victoria created a life Peer, and that was turned down. It goes back a lot further than that, however. I read the Library report, but there was also something in the New Statesman and I asked the Library for an account of what had happened in relation to life Peers. I read a debate from around 1860, I think, and I can inform the House that life peerages go back to the reign of Henry III, in the 13th century.
There have been regular life peerages. They used to end them by chopping off the heads of the Lords when they fell from favour. This is no longer recommended procedure, but I have had advice from an extraordinarily senior source to the effect that the sovereign creates but the House sits, and we would be within our powers to amend our Standing Orders to create a queue for Peers waiting to take their seats, as my noble friend Lord Cormack suggested. The size of the House would be determined and there would be a Burns-style distribution, based perhaps on previous elections or other criteria: there would be an allocation to each party.
At the moment I often look at the ranks of the Labour Party—my former party—and I feel a bit sorry for them, because they could do with strengthening, frankly. Democracy in this House relies on having a strong Opposition, not just strong Conservative Benches; it needs to be much wider than that.
I would therefore like to see this Motion passed and the noble Lord, Lord Burns—or, if he thinks it is a poisoned chalice, someone else—to look, in the way suggested, at the means by which this House can implement the desires it endorsed at the time of the Burns report. We have weapons in our armoury that could be used. Although it saddens me to say so, I do not think that the present Prime Minister will follow our advice unless there is some strength behind it—the ability to say, “No, you cannot do that” and the powers to stop it. Otherwise, we will be ridden roughshod over. I therefore support the Motion. I ask the Procedure and Privileges Committee to consider coming back to this House before the end of December with its thoughts, and that this House look at limiting our numbers, getting a legislative or rule-based way of doing it, and saying to the Government, “Fine, you create, but we will admit”.
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
This has been a rather wider-ranging debate than either I or probably the noble Lord, Lord McFall, as Senior Deputy Speaker, anticipated. I agree with the point the noble Lord, Lord Balfe, made about the Prime Minister not listening to advice. I think the only advice he listens to is that of the Deputy Prime Minister, Mr Cummings. Perhaps if we could persuade him, we might have more success in him treating the House and Parliament with some respect.
I had not expected the debate to go back to the 13th century. The House of Lords sometimes looks backwards rather than forwards, but it does not often go quite so far back. I think this illustrates the scale of the problem. We are dealing with something here and now, and the Motion before us has my full support. The noble Lord, Lord Newby, made the most telling point. If local government elections have been stopped around the country and the public are not entitled to elect, it would be nonsensical for an unelected House to elect one of its few elected Members to this place.
I want to put on record that this is a policy issue. This is not about the merits or otherwise of any individual who serves in this House, by whichever route they come in. All Members of your Lordships’ House are welcomed. In fact, most of us really do not know who are the life Peers and who are the hereditary Peers, except those who make an effort to defend the continuation of the hereditary principle ad infinitum with the temporary position introduced in 1999.
I disassociate myself from some of the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, which is unusual. We all want to get back to working as normally as possible as soon as possible, but we can do so only in realms that make us safe. Indeed, my understanding is that no Member of your Lordships’ House has wanted to speak physically but not been able to attend physically. We have to respect those who for many reasons—whether for travel or because they live in hot-spot areas or for their own medical conditions—wish to participate remotely. I think we do better than the House of Commons in that regard.
Finally, on the comments made about the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, he was unable to be with us today. For very understandable reasons, he would want to be here. I am sorry the noble Lord made that comment. It would be remiss of me not to mention his Bill. It has had the overwhelming support of your Lordships’ House on many occasions. It is not fit for today’s House of Lords to have by-elections for hereditary peerages. The only reason we do not have that Bill, and have the Motion before us today, is that the Government do not want it. We have invited the Government many a time to say, “We will help give this a speedy passage through Parliament”, but because of the processes, a few Peers who do not support it have blocked that Bill with parliamentary vandalism tactics. We will return to that Bill, but I make a plea to the Government. It is a Bill that has the overwhelming support of your Lordships’ House.
The noble Lord, Lord Burns, gave a way forward on the size of the House, and that is one issue, but the Motion before us has nothing to do with that. It is about having a sensible process: we should not have by-elections to your Lordships’ House in the current circumstances. It has my full support.