Children and Families Bill

Debate between Baroness Sharp of Guildford and Baroness Cumberlege

Tuesday 7th January 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Cumberlege (Con)]

My Lords, I am delighted to be able to support my noble friend on these amendments which remove the requirement for local authorities to have regard to age when making decisions about the education, health and care plans for young people.

Amendment 173, which I proposed in Grand Committee and in which I was supported by the noble Baronesses, Lady Hughes and Lady Jones, aimed to achieve the same end that has been put forward in these amendments. As my noble friend said, it removes Clause 45(4). I applaud the Government for recognising the force of our arguments and for putting forward these very important amendments, which will make a significant difference not only to the Act when it is passed but to the young people concerned, which clearly is the most important part of this amendment.

Like many other noble Lords, I pay a personal tribute to my noble friend Lord Nash, who has been generous in the time he has spent discussing this aspect of the Bill with me and many other noble Lords and in the determination that he has shown to get it right for young people at what many of us consider to be the most important time of transition in their lives. I am very grateful for his recognition that some young people with special educational needs require more time to complete their education beyond the age of 18. Of course, that has now been translated into the amendment in the Bill. This requires local authorities to consider whether the young person requires additional time to complete his or her education or training. That is a very good thing indeed.

My noble friend will know from the amendment that I proposed in Grand Committee that I believe that local authorities should be required to have regard not only to whether education and training outcomes have been achieved but to whether,

“health and social care outcomes have been achieved”.

The Government did not support that amendment. Nevertheless, I welcome the proposed amendments to Clauses 44 and 45 which will require local authorities, when reviewing a plan or considering whether to propose the cessation of an EHC plan, to have regard to whether the education or training outcomes specified have been achieved. Focusing on outcomes is much more important for young people with complex special educational needs. Their chronological age is far less relevant than whether they have achieved the skills that will enable them to make a successful transition to adult life.

I have one remaining concern, however, and a request to my noble friend. I am worried that some people may mistakenly interpret the phrase “education and training outcomes” in too narrow a way and relate these primarily to formal accredited learning and qualifications. I know from my noble friend’s visit to the Chailey Heritage Foundation that he understands that, for some young people with complex needs, the learning educational outcomes they achieve will not be appropriately assessed and recognised through the usual formal accredited qualifications. It would be most unfortunate if local authorities sought to stop EHC plans for young people with complex needs because the outcomes they wanted to achieve post-18 were not ones that could be formally accredited.

The code of practice should be explicit about the full range of educational outcomes that might be legitimately included in an EHC plan. I therefore ask for assurance that the code of practice will make clear that the educational and training outcomes in these clauses will be considered in the wider sense and not restricted to accredited learning or formal qualifications.

[Baroness Sharp of Guildford]

My Lords, my name is attached to many of these amendments and I am delighted to support them all. I also pay tribute to the Minister for having listened to the arguments that we put forward in Committee.

First, it was suggested in Committee that some young people over 18 might not need the help and support they had been getting. That would provide local authorities with an excuse for dropping such support after 18 by using those words “to have regard to age”. Secondly, and perhaps more importantly, it was said that the wording was too flexible. We all know that circumstances can vary enormously and that some young people with SEN are ready by the age of 18 to stand on their own and that—partly thanks to the help and support they have received—they are well able to cope without further support. However, others mature later and need to be given extra help and support. Indeed, they often need to take longer, as the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, indicated, over the process of learning and acquiring skills and qualifications. The Minister agreed with those arguments and stated very clearly in his response that the provision of continuing support was not a matter of age but of whether the young person concerned was ready to move into adult life. He was not prepared to move initially in Committee but he said that he was very willing to meet us. The amendments that he has introduced today very largely meet the points that we made then and show that he has very much heeded those arguments. The new wording introduced today meets our requirements.

The first of the two key amendments is Amendment 34D to Clause 36. The wording,

“have regard to his or her age”,

will be changed to,

“consider whether he or she requires additional time, in comparison to the majority of others of the same age who do not have special educational needs, to complete his or her education or training”.

In Amendment 39B to Clause 44, “his or her age” will be omitted and the words,

“whether the educational or training outcomes specified in the plan have been achieved”,

will be inserted. As the revised wording implies, the clear intention is that local authorities should be flexible in their approach, and should above all consider whether the young person has reached a point where they can do without the extra help and support that an EHC plan would give them. It is clear from the various case studies provided to us by those who are anxious to see the wording changed, that many young people need and will benefit from this flexible approach. I again thank the Minister and the Bill team for their readiness to listen to our arguments and to make these changes.

However, there is some unhappiness among those providing education and training to over-18s with special educational needs about the current wording of the draft code of practice. In particular, they think that there is a degree of inconsistency in it. At some points the draft code rightly emphasises—as the wording of the amended Bill does—the needs of the individual, whether the outcomes specified in the EHC plan have been achieved and whether the young person is ready to enter and cope with adulthood. At other times the code seems to point to the cliff edge—that once a young person reaches the age of 18, it is no longer necessary to maintain the plan. Could the Minister and his officials, having now amended the Bill, make sure that the code of practice fully reflects the amendments that we have made?

In general, I reiterate how very grateful those for whom I have been speaking in relation to these issues and I are to the Minister and his officials for listening to us, and for amending the Bill.

Children and Families Bill

Debate between Baroness Sharp of Guildford and Baroness Cumberlege

Monday 4th November 2013 Grand Committee

[Baroness Sharp of Guildford (LD)]

My Lords, I shall speak to Amendments 138, 146, 166, 174, 205AA and 205AB, which are all in my name and in this group.

Amendments 138, 146, 166 and 174 pick up the issue spoken about by the noble Lord, Lord Touhig; namely, they are about age and the wording that one sees in, for example, Clause 36(10). Rather than eliminating Clause 36(10), we seek to replace,

“have regard to his or her age”,

with,

“ensure that he or she will have sufficient time and support in education to make a successful transition to adulthood”.

There is in fact a slight mistake in the Marshalled List, which reads “transfer” rather than “transition”. The amendments have the support of the Association of Colleges, Ambitious about Autism and the Association of National Specialist Colleges, Natspec.

The view of those organisations, and my view, is that the Bill genuinely wants to ensure that young people with special educational needs have all the opportunities that they need to get the best out of education. The publicity around it has made much of the nought-to-25 system that is being introduced. It has also made much of the need for personalisation, which the amendments reflect. The aim of the amendments is therefore to ensure that the individual needs of the young person are recognised through the planning process, and that decisions about continuing their learning are made on the basis of need rather than an artificial link to their age.

One of the points mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Touhig, is that there has been something of a tendency to think that, because the ages 18 and 25 are mentioned, these are the appropriate points rather than anywhere between those two ages. We are concerned that parents will feel that they have to battle to get a place beyond 18 in order that their son or daughter may stay until they are 25, setting up perhaps inappropriate expectations that they will continue through to 25 when it might be more appropriate for them to move into looking after themselves at an earlier age.

There are many reasons why a young person with special educational needs might need to be in education beyond the age of 18. Their learning difficulty may mean that they take longer to learn, practise and consolidate their skills. They may need additional time to become more autonomous learners, moving away from a situation where support is very hands-on to support that promotes their independence. They may need to learn how to use technology that can support this autonomy. Young people with special educational needs often mature later than their peers, and it is not until they move into a more adult environment that they really make a step towards more effective learning and taking on greater responsibility.

They may acquire the information and understanding to make informed choices about their future only once they have moved beyond school. Take, for example, the case of Chris, who has Asperger’s syndrome and major communication issues. He switched to college at the age of 16. In supported learning at college, Chris gained the confidence and skills required to progress into mainstream education. He has completed the bronze Duke of Edinburgh award, which he started when he first joined the college. He also started, in supported learning, on a next steps course for two years, progressed to a level 1 foundation course in IT, has steadily worked his way through level 2 and level 3 and is now completing his UCAS statement, with the aim of going to university next September.

Time spent to ensure that young people are well prepared to move into adult life pays dividends for them, their families and, ultimately, for the public purse. The National Audit Office report, Oversight of Special Education for Young People Aged 16-25, which was published in November 2011, stated:

“Equipping a young person with the skills to live in semi-independent rather than fully supported housing could, in addition to quality-of-life improvements, reduce these lifetime support costs by around £1 million. Supporting one person with a learning disability into employment could, in addition to improving their independence and self-esteem, reduce lifetime costs to the public purse by around £170,000 and increase the person’s income by between 55 and 95 per cent. If properly focused and effective, therefore, investment in special education should provide long-term returns”.

I cite the example of Shaun. Shaun first studied on an ACE course, which is a transition programme, at college. He had very low self-confidence and complained about being bullied. Although matters were resolved, Shaun requested a move to another college. Shaun started off very quietly at the new college, but gradually built up his confidence and became more sociable and responsible through the year. After completing his year on the ACE course, he was confident enough to join a mainstream course. He then completed an entry award in motor vehicles, went straight into full-time employment in motor vehicles and is now self-supporting.

This set of amendments ensures that local authorities and others taking, or helping to take, decisions on behalf of those young people will focus on outcomes that support the transition to adulthood—the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Touhig. There is much evidence to show that a successful outcome is linked to an effective learning programme geared to the needs of the young person, not artificially linked to age. I believe that that is the basic intention behind the Bill and, in that respect, this set of amendments is wholly in line with it. I very much hope that the Minister will be sympathetic to them.

Amendments 205AA and 205AB relate to Clause 66, which enables the Secretary of State to collect and publish information on children and young people with special educational needs who are under the age of 19. The amendments would extend that provision to the age of 25. Once again, it is a question of recognising that many young people with special educational needs need help and support through to 25. If the Government are genuine in their intention to create a comprehensive nought-to-25 system, it must include arrangements to monitor the outcomes for 19 to 25 year-olds. Indeed, the success or otherwise of the Government’s policies in this area will ultimately be accurately and appropriately measured only in the education, employment and independent living achieved by young people in that age group.

Officials have suggested that the reluctance to include 19 to 25 year-olds is driven by a desire not to increase administrative burdens on colleges, which is a particular policy concern of the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills. However, the Association of Colleges, which has asked me to table the amendments, has stated its willingness for the age range to be extended. It is not clear that the extension would necessitate any new data collection, as it asks only that colleges report on existing data collected under the individualised learning record.

[Baroness Cumberlege (Con)]

My Lords, I have three amendments in this group. As this is the first time that I have taken part in Committee, although I took part on Second Reading, I have been told that I should declare my interests, which are in the Lords register. In particular, this afternoon, I should like to declare my non-pecuniary interest as the chairman of the trustees of the Chailey Heritage Foundation. The foundation is a non-maintained special independent school with a registered children’s home. It works in partnership with a clinical facility, run by the NHS on the same site, and it has just launched a transition service for 19 to 25 year-olds. Some of these young people will continue from Chailey and others will come from a much wider area. This is the group to which my amendment refers.

Seeing is worth a thousand words, so I am particularly grateful to my noble friend who, during the very precious Recess, came to meet the children, young people and staff at the foundation. His visit had a profound effect on those he met, and I think it is fair to say—I hope the Minister will agree—that the occasion was of mutual benefit. My noble friend met some very severely disabled young people. I was interested in the examples given by the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp. The young people at Chailey are not of that sort at all: they are much more severely disabled. However, they do well at school, within the limits of their disabilities; some have 15 or more medications a day and none of them can walk or power their wheelchair unaided. Our ambition for these young people is that, having had a very worthwhile, stimulating education, which Ofsted says is outstanding—something that we are very pleased about—they should then benefit from this education.

They have some understanding but very limited, or no, speech and have learnt to communicate through different means, often using sophisticated modern technology. They have acquired some knowledge of how to operate in society. We believe that they should participate in their own lives and not be consigned to a wasted life in a nursing or residential home. Despite their very complex needs, we have plans for four of our young people to move into assisted living and we are seeking some sort of employment for them, although we realise that it will be very limited. The noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, mentioned the National Audit Office review. I agree that saving money in the long term depends on the initial education of these young people. Semi-independent, rather than fully supported, housing can save considerable money in the long term.

I am grateful to the noble Lords, Lord Patel and Lord Low, and noble Baronesses, Lady Jones and Lady Hughes, for supporting Amendments 170, 171 and 173. I was hoping to see the name of the noble Lord, Lord Nash, on these amendments when we looked at today’s Marshalled List, but that may come in time. The amendments are very similar to others on the Marshalled List this afternoon. We all wish to see education, health and care plans continue, where appropriate, to the age of 25. I was encouraged by the follow-up letter, written by my noble friend after Second Reading, in which he recognised that some people with special educational needs require more time to complete their education beyond the age of 18: as we all know, they generally learn more slowly than other young people. Having been a Minister, I appreciate the Government’s concern about legislating.

We understand that there could be an expectation that every young person with SEN would have an entitlement to education up to the age of 25, regardless of whether they were ready to make or had already made a successful transition into adult life. Those of us who have brought up children, or worked with children and young people, know that our task is not complete by 19. The years between 19 and 25 are also very formative; it is a time of experimentation, finding limits and testing boundaries. We do not expect a 19 year-old to settle down into adult life or decide where they are going to live for the rest of their life. Young adults with complex needs are different, in that they require very intensive support. They have to make this transition and develop a sense of themselves as adults and what it means to be an adult. Creating the right environment to achieve an understanding of adult life is an important part of supporting development, and we believe that it is “educational” for those with complex needs.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Sharp of Guildford]

My Lords, I am not totally happy with what the Minister has said. The funny phrase,

“must have regard to age”,

is used in quite a number of clauses. He seems to be saying, “We do not want to look at age, we want to look at a successful transition into adulthood”. I do not understand why the Minister prefers his wording to actually saying that we want a successful transition to adulthood. The Minister has made the point that it is not a question of going through to 25, it is a question of when, between the age of 18 and their 25th birthday, it is appropriate for them to move into independence. I therefore do not understand why he is rejecting an alternative form of wording.

On Amendments 205AA and 205AB, I need to go back and have a look at this more carefully. My understanding is that at the moment it is not proposed to collect the data, so I was interested to hear the Minister say that they will be collecting data. I thought that they were making a distinction between schools and colleges and that they were not proposing to collect the data from colleges.

Finally, in relation to the code of practice mentioned by the noble Baroness, Lady Wilkins, my understanding is that it is not very helpful. If the Minister could have another look at it, I would be grateful. I thank him for his reply and hope perhaps that he can reassure me that he might look again at the wording.

[Baroness Cumberlege]

My Lords, I echo what the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, has just said. Try as I might, I am afraid that I am not totally reassured, but I am extremely grateful that the Minister has agreed to meet with those of us who have these concerns. I am sure my noble friend will appreciate that there is a very strong coalition across the Committee—I do not mean in government terms, but across the parties—and that he gets the feeling that we need to go a bit further on this. I look forward to meeting him in due course.