EU: Interpretation and Translation in Criminal Proceedings
Baroness Scotland of Asthal Excerpts(12 years, 4 months ago)
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Lord McNally
No. However, there are a number of interpreters who speak more than one language. At the moment, there are about 1,500 interpreters under contract and they are equivalent to about 3,000 interpreter persons, which means that many of them speak two or more languages.
Baroness Scotland of Asthal
My Lords, will the noble Lord tell the House whether the nature, number and extent of complaints from the courts has gone up or down since the change was implemented? If it has, as we believe, gone up, what do the Government intend to do about it?
Lord McNally
Has it gone up since the scheme was implemented? Yes, it has, because the scheme implements a single supplier that will pay interpreters less than they were being paid on an ad hoc basis. That combination of greater discipline in where and when interpreters are hired and at what fee is not likely to be welcome to the interpreting community. That I understand. But it was the previous Administration who initiated an inquiry into the efficiency and effectiveness of the old interpreter system. We have readily acknowledged that this new system has had teething problems, but there is no ministerial interest or MoJ interest in having questions such as this time and again about performance. The supplier has contracted to a high-quality performance, and we intend to keep it to that.
Crime: Victims
Baroness Scotland of Asthal Excerpts(12 years, 5 months ago)
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Lord McNally
That is exactly what we are doing. We intend to put more into victim support and to focus compensation much more effectively.
Baroness Scotland of Asthal
My Lords, in this new construct that the noble Lord is putting forward, how can we be assured of the quality of the support that is given to victims if it is disaggregated in the way that the Government are contemplating?
Lord McNally
Quality will come partly from local accountability and the fact that support will be devolved to the new police commissioners, who will have responsibility for victims. That is a very healthy development. I do not want the new police and crime commissioners to see their role as second-guessing chief constables. They should have a wider role in their responsibility for police and crime. If victims are high on their list of priorities, the democratic process will ensure service and accountability.
Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill
Baroness Scotland of Asthal Excerpts(12 years, 7 months ago)
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Baroness Scotland of Asthal
Leave out from “House” to end and insert “do insist on its Amendments 2B and 196B”.
Baroness Scotland of Asthal
My Lords, I listened with very great care to what the Minister said in support of his Motion. I listened to see whether there had been significant movement in the Government’s understanding of the damage that the restriction that remains in relation to domestic violence provision would do to victims, to their children and to the men engaged in this sort of behaviour. I have to say that I listened with disappointment.
I do not hesitate to adopt all the comments made by the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, on the Government’s approach to Part 1 of the Bill. I reiterate immediately my appreciation for the fact that the Government have at last moved on definition, and to an extent in relation to the evidential gateway, but I find myself echoing what was said by the noble Lord, Lord Pannick: it was something that we should not have had to ask and press for for so long. It should have been freely and immediately given because it was founded on a fundamental joint understanding of domestic violence, which had been shared, I believed, by all sides of the House for the past 13 years of our Government, and which I was innocent enough to believe was still shared and understood today.
In looking at the amendments, I reassure the noble Lord immediately that I understand that the Government seek to break with the past and with the way in which we provided justice for individuals in our country through the provision of legal aid. That is something that I understand and regret. I also acknowledge that it is the Government’s intention to limit their exposure to costs incurred by legal aid and to narrow the scope of provision. At the moment, 265,000 people a year get legal help. That will reduce by 79 per cent to 55,000 under the Bill. I understand that that is the Government’s intention and it is something that I regret. At the moment, 112,500 people a year get legal representation. This will reduce by 40 per cent to 67,500 people a year under the Bill. That is something I also regret.
The impact that changes to private family law and legal aid will have on women is another area where it was accepted in the equality impact assessment in the reform of legal aid consultation that it would be the largest number of potential users of legal aid who would be affected by these reforms. It was also accepted that clients in this category were more likely to be female than in any other category of law except education. They represent 63 per cent of total clients, excluding those who have not identified their gender. This proportion exceeds that of the 16-plus population, which is 51 per cent, and that of all affected cases involving females, which is 56 per cent.
I accept that it is an intentional policy decision by the Government to remove that support. I have just told the noble Lord that that is something that I regret, but I accept it. However, we have to look at the provision that will be lost if the amendments go through. The noble Lord knows that at the moment, for ancillary leave proceedings, if an applicant fulfils the financial criteria and is given legal aid, any money that they receive over and above £2,500 can be recouped from them by the Legal Services Commission. If the person has money, £2,500 is the extent of the support that we as a country are minded to give litigants.
The noble Lord knows only too well that the longevity of the domestic violence issue far outlives a two-year period. Many women will never go to the police, to local authorities, to refuges or to their GP. They simply run. Sometimes they run to their families, and sometimes they do not even seek ancillary relief. However, those women and their children will still have to respond if the perpetrator brings ancillary relief proceedings against them, whether in relation to maintenance, residence or contact, and if that comes after the arbitrary two-year time limit, the perpetrator, who will often be the more financially advantaged, will have the wherewithal to bring those proceedings, and the victim and her children will have no legal aid to support them. That is why, unlike the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, I will insist that we look at this again. The other place gave cursory attention to these issues. If this is the only issue that will be returned to it, perhaps it will be able to consider it at greater leisure. If it does, perhaps the sagacity of this House will assist it to do a little better than it has to date.
Lord Mackay of Clashfern
There is one question I would like to ask the noble and learned Baroness. I understand the point about time limits; I listened carefully to what was said about that. I tried to follow fully what she was saying and I think that, on the whole, I succeeded in doing that. However, she said—and I know that this can happen—that a woman subjected to domestic violence may do nothing about it at the time and then wants to bring it up, very properly, later on. I do not at the moment see where that situation is covered in her amendment. I can see the relevance of the time limit, but when the woman in question has not done anything about it at all—except suffered it, which is enough—I do not at the moment see that that situation is covered, unless it be of the type prescribed in regulations. That is an open-ended thing, but so far as the rest of it is concerned—having listened, I hope, carefully and understood fully, I think, what the noble and learned Baroness was saying—I have not quite grasped that particular point.
Baroness Scotland of Asthal
I hope that I can help the noble and learned Lord. On the last occasion on which I spoke, I said that I accepted that even my amendment would leave out many people who needed and should have help and assistance, and that I was not happy that even my amendment would go as far as it should, but I was drawing back from the ideal, accepting that the Government wanted a very narrow gateway. That is point number one.
Point number two is that if, in such a situation, the woman had available to her and could produce evidence that there had been a number of police calls to her home, notwithstanding the fact that she had not pursued it to the extent of asking for or supporting a charge and a conviction, then she would still have evidence available to her which she could rely upon, notwithstanding the fact that while the parties lived together she had not pursued it as she should have. One reality that we have had to face for a number of years is that, quite often, victims will hide from the perpetrator, as opposed to confronting him, but there are occasions when the perpetrator will find and pursue the victim and then the victim has no choice but to respond. It is in those sorts of cases that, if we do not give a greater degree of flexibility, we will find that there is difficulty. That woman might have not gone to the refuge, but she may have received telephone or other support from it indirectly. Therefore, part of our amendment is asking for not only admission to a refuge to be included, but also other evidence that could be given by the third sector or professionals to say that there was valid evidence upon which the woman would be able to rely to prove that there had been domestic violence.
Baroness Hamwee
My Lords, I hope that my noble friend, in responding to this, can help the House as to how extensive regulations can be to cover the concerns that have been expressed. I have spoken on many occasions over the years about domestic violence, and my response to a lot of what has been said, particularly comments made by the noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, whom I respect enormously, is to think that we should be doing more with the services that we give to, mostly, women who find themselves in this situation. However, that is about services—refuges and other sorts of help—and it does not go to the evidence, so I hope that my noble friend can help expand on the answer that we have been given by the Commons: that regulations should deal with these matters.
Lord McNally
But isolating one aspect and saying that if a woman goes to a refuge and cannot get in she will not get legal aid ignores the fact that I have put before the House—the whole list of options that people can turn to. I do not think that it serves the case of women subject to domestic violence to somehow suggest that the passing of this Bill will cut them off from legal aid. The fact is that we will be spending something like £120 million a year in legal aid in this area of law. As I pointed out in my opening remarks, one thing that I am most proud of about this Government is that we have put funding into domestic violence issues in a very detailed way—in a way to which the noble Lord, Lord Blair, referred.
We are talking about a very specific area of assistance in a very specific area of law, with victims seeking legal aid for private family matters. With her skills, the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Scotland, has turned this into a debate again and again on who is in favour of helping domestic violence victims, and who is against. I think that is a clever way of putting it to the House, but it is not a fair way. We have tried and listened and moved on all these areas. Long ago, the request from the Opposition was for the ACPO definition; when the ACPO definition was conceded, it was the UK Border Agency that became the mark. The fact that we have done ACPO-plus does not seem to matter. The fact that we have brought in funding for specific aid in this area does not matter. We will always find there is another bar to clear, so that as noble Lords come in asking, “What’s this about?”, it can be said to them, “It’s about voting for legal aid for those affected by domestic violence”. But legal aid is there for those affected by domestic violence. The criteria by which they qualify have been widened. We have listened to this House and acted on its advice.
On the point raised by the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, about family legal aid in children and kinship, where private family law proceedings are being taken as an alternative to public law proceedings—for example, where it is more sensible for grandparents to care for a child rather than the parents—legal aid will be available. If there is evidence of child abuse, it will also be there. I will look at the further points the noble Earl made, and if I may I will write to him, but we believe that exceptional funding will also kick in in this area.
The noble and learned Baroness, Lady Scotland, is a powerful and sometimes an emotive advocate but it is sometimes worth cutting through the emotion, and I ask the House to do that—to cut through the threat that this will cause death—and look at the facts. The fact is that this Government have listened and extended the criteria for this form of legal aid beyond what the House first asked for. This Government have put real money into real, pioneering services in terms of this terrible scourge of domestic violence. The Commons has considered this, and was right to return it to your Lordships. I believe this is the moment to ask your Lordships to accept the view of the Commons. I beg to move.
Baroness Scotland of Asthal
My Lords, perhaps I might say to the Minister straight away that I hope it has been clear from everything I have said that I have always believed, and still believe, that all sides of this House—and, I hope, of the other place—are of one mind in the approach that they take towards helping domestic violence victims. Nothing I have said from this Dispatch Box has undermined that. What I have been clear about is that this Government have been wrong not to widen the gateway. With respect, we have consistently argued about the time limit and the evidential criteria, right the way through, and we have not changed.
I also say gently to the Minister that in looking at reducing litigation, the one happy thing about domestic proceedings—both in private family law and in relation to domestic violence cases specifically—is that family lawyers worth their salt always appreciate that if a family has got to the stage of having to litigate, they are dealing with damage limitation and not winning or losing. That is why only about 5 per cent of the cases ever go right the way through into contested matters, so in this area of law we are not looking at cases running away and people litigating when it is unnecessary. The Government are continuing the approach that the previous Government took in advocating mediation whenever it is proper.
However, we have a difference of view. I thank the noble Lord very much for his compliments about my advocacy, but I have to tell him that this is not about advocacy. This is about truth and fact, and if I do nothing else I will always stand side by side with the victims of abuse. I believe that is where the Government should be too.
Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill
Baroness Scotland of Asthal Excerpts(12 years, 7 months ago)
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Baroness Scotland of Asthal
Leave out from “House” to end and insert “do not insist on its Amendments 192 and 194 and do agree with the Commons in their Amendments 193A, 219A and 220A, and do not insist on its Amendments 2 and 196 but do propose Amendments 2B and 196B as amendments in lieu”
Baroness Scotland of Asthal
My Lords, I move the amendment standing in my name not in any way to cause anxiety or concern to the Minister, or with any lack of appreciation for how far the Government have moved. I say straightaway that I welcome the moves that have been made in the right direction. However, I hope the Minister will forgive me when I say that I regret that such a move was not done immediately and that we have had to wait so long. I hope the noble Lord will not find me ungracious when I say that I would invite him to move a little further. The amendments that have been proposed by the Government widen the evidential gateway provided by the Bill as it stood before: my amendments take it just a little further.
Domestic violence applications are of great importance, not just because they relate to a large proportion of women, but also, as the noble Lord knows, because they affect men and many children. Up to 950,000 children are affected by domestic violence every year. My amendments specifically permit well founded evidence of abuse certified by a court and/or prescribed in regulations to be used in support of an application for legal aid relating to matters that touch on domestic violence. In addition, my amendments provide that no evidence shall be deemed inadmissible on the basis of the expiration while the general limitation period under the civil standard has not elapsed; in effect, moving limitation from the two years provided in the Government’s proposed regulations to six, which I think causes greater consistency.
Your Lordships will know that, in my Amendment 196B, I also seek to extend that more generous time limit to applications made in relation to children’s cases. The House has heard from me, at Second Reading, in Committee and on Report, about the importance of these issues to victims of domestic violence and their children. These amendments are, I respectfully say, vital. They are vital to all victims who may be affected by domestic violence. It is the reality of the domestic violence victim’s life that has to be properly acknowledged. Although I thank the Minister for moving both in scope on the definition and on the definition itself, it is clear from what he said in moving his Motion that the Government do not entirely understand the issues in relation to domestic violence as I had hoped that they would.
The evidential test is there to provide assurance that there is cogent information on which to base the assertions of domestic violence made by an applicant. The evidential gateway is just that: an evidential test to support the definition. The Government seek, on the basis of the amount of money that they have available, to narrow that gateway in a way that denies the reality of many victims’ lives. I would love to be able to say that my fear in relation to these amendments is misplaced. The reason I know that, tragically, it is not, is that I have had the privilege of working in this field since 1977. We know, through experience and the empirical data that we have, the consequence of a narrower gateway because there has been one in the past and we know that lives have been lost.
In many cases, women—I say “women” because 89 per cent of repeat victims are women—will not get the support they need. I will give one example, which has been given to us by St Anthony’s Centre for Church and Industry in Manchester. It relates to a case where a woman had entered into a marriage which was violent and traumatic. She wanted to start divorce and financial proceedings. She did not go to a refuge. She left her home and went to live at her parents’ house. While there, she was not able to work because she used to work for her husband in his business, so she lost her job; she was his bookkeeper. The husband remained in the joint home. He moved his mistress into that home and refused to engage in the divorce proceedings at all for a considerable amount of time. The wife could do very little about it. Eventually, because he would not negotiate and because she had no money and he had a great deal, she went and obtained legal aid to assist her to go back into the house and, if not to go back into the house, to get her just desserts in terms of financial relief. The husband had engaged some very expensive solicitors. She did not have any money to do so. That woman, today, would get legal aid. If your Lordships were to agree with the amendments and pass them in accordance with the Government’s proposal, she would not.
There are other cases. For example, a woman left her husband because of his violence and did not go back. She did not apply for any financial relief or anything at all. She simply wanted safety for herself and her children. Eight years later—way outside the two-year time limit—her husband came to apply for contact with those children. She had not gone to the police. She had not gone to her doctor. She had not gone to a refuge, because she had gone to her mother’s house. Neither had she sought to enter into litigation. But she did not have any money. At the moment, she is able to get legal aid; if these provisions are passed, she will not. I know that the noble Lord would want to provide help and assistance for those sorts of cases, but the current provisions will not do that which the Government purport to want.
Lord McNally
I have never doubted that. It is just that I keep getting nudged when I call someone learned and someone whispers in my ear that they are not.
Baroness Scotland of Asthal
Noble Lords are learned if they are in the Supreme Court or have been a Law Officer. Others, regrettably, may be learned in fact but are not learned in name.
Lord McNally
My Lords, I have stated as clearly as I can why the Government and the Commons have put forward their reasons. The emotional span of this debate is sometimes extended to question whether we are in favour of victims and their children. The answer is that yes, we are in favour of them. As I said in my opening remarks, this debate is about how and whether and within which ambit we provide legal aid in private law cases. It is difficult to go beyond that into individual cases, which have been cited in debate at every stage. In many of these cases, the suspicion is that they would qualify either by application for an injunction or by a finding of fact by the court. The latter is extremely important in the additional list that we have put forward to qualify people for legal aid.
As I said in my opening remarks, when addressing an issue such as this one, and within the constraints under which the Government are operating, lines have to be drawn. It is legitimate for the Opposition to argue that that line has been drawn in the wrong place or that a time limit has been put in the wrong place. In the end, however, Governments have to make decisions—and we have made decisions. As I said, I hope that the House will look at the decisions we have made and see that we have listened and acted in a way that puts us on the side of victims and their children and that, in practice, those who face the problem of domestic violence and who want to obtain legal aid for decisions in private family law cases will find that the concessions we have made and the rules and the guidelines we have laid down will give the women and children—I accept that there may be others, but mainly women and children—who are affected by this scourge access to legal aid. I therefore ask the House to support Motion B.
Baroness Scotland of Asthal
I am disappointed that the Minister takes that view. As he will know from our previous debates, our assessment is that as a result of the changes that the Government are proposing, 54.4 per cent of victims currently obtaining legal aid and assistance for family proceedings will not be able to obtain such help and assistance in future. Although I absolutely accept that the Government intend, or wish, to be supportive, these provisions demonstrate the reverse—that they will not be supportive. I therefore wish to test the opinion of the House.
Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill
Baroness Scotland of Asthal Excerpts(12 years, 8 months ago)
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“( ) In exercising the duty under subsection (1), the Lord Chancellor must ensure that victims of domestic violence are able to access civil legal services in accordance with the financial eligibility criteria in section 20 (financial resources).”
Baroness Scotland of Asthal
My Lords, I declare my interest as chair of the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Domestic and Sexual Violence, and as founder and patron of the Corporate Alliance Against Domestic Violence and the Global Foundation for the Elimination of Domestic Violence. I shall speak to my Amendments 2, 41, 43 and 44 in this group, which deal with access to justice for victims of domestic violence. I am joined in these amendments by the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, who, as your Lordships will know, is the former president of the Family Division; the noble Lord, Lord Blair, the former Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police; and the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Leicester, supported as he is by a letter dated 28 February signed by most of the faith groups which have expressed concern about the effect of these proposed provisions. I hope that noble Lords, not least the Minister, will have seen that letter.
Amendment 2 creates a positive duty on the Lord Chancellor to ensure that legal aid is available to domestic violence victims in accordance with their financial eligibility where they are engaged in domestic violence-related cases, such as contact or property disputes. Amendment 41 seeks to preserve the definition of abuse currently used across governmental and other agencies and is the definition adopted by the Association of Chief Police Officers.
Amendment 43 seeks to ensure that the evidential criteria required to prove that domestic violence has occurred protects all victims of domestic violence. It reflects the source of evidence currently accepted by the UK Border Agency. Last but not least, Amendment 44 ensures that no arbitrary time limit operates in relation to any evidence supporting an application for legal services. These are, in essence, the amendments laid before the House in Committee and the Minister is, I am sure, only too familiar with them.
The changes proposed by the Government have generated a great deal of anxiety and concern across the country, which has been irrespective of party and geographical location. As your Lordships know only too well, in the United Kingdom, every week two women die as a result of domestic violence. Victims of domestic violence make up one in four women and one in six men in the United Kingdom. Every week, 230 victims need help to leave their abusive relationships. This Government made a commitment in the spring of last year to end violence against women and to set out a cross-governmental strategy for preventing and responding to violence against women. The Justice Minister in the other place, Jonathan Djanogly, said:
“If domestic violence is involved, the Government believe that legal aid should be provided”.—[Official Report, Commons, 31/10/11; col. 638.]
I hope the Minister, who said in Committee that he would listen carefully to all that was said on this topic, will be able to assure us now that he is in a position to accept our amendments. That would give voice to the commitments made by the coalition Government in the spring of 2011.
Even now I can assure the Minister that I am quite happy to give way and allow him to apply balm to anxious souls across the country who are waiting for this relief. Particularly bearing in mind the result of the last vote, if he wishes to seize this opportunity, I would be only too happy to sit down. However, I do not see him jumping to his feet and therefore I must take it that is he not going to do so. If that is the case, perhaps I may say how disappointed I and a number of others across the country will be. That is because the provisions in this Bill, if accepted along with the 12-month time limit, will cause great damage. We know from a recent survey by Rights of Women that 54.4 per cent of victims today would not get through the evidential gateway being created by the Bill, and a great injustice may thereby be allowed to enter into our system.
I should say straight away that I welcome the Government’s recent acceptance that the definition of domestic violence set out in the Bill must change. The revised version is much closer to the existing definition—tried and tested by the Association of Chief Police Officers over a number of years and by all those who operate within the justice system and who have the burden of dealing with domestic violence cases. We welcome the Government’s change of heart. But I have to tell the Minister that, regrettably, the definition is still too narrow in that it differs from the ACPO definition and from my Amendment 41 because it still excludes “any incident” of domestic violence. That will have a material impact on the ability of a large number of victims to access legal aid. Unless the evidential gateway is widened, the Government’s concession will have little meaning or effect. However, in the light of the concession in relation to the definition, I will focus my remarks on the third and fourth of my amendments.
If the Government’s proposals succeed, it will mean that family legal aid will be allowed only where domestic violence is shown by the existence of an injunction or criminal conviction, if the victim is subject to a MARAC—a multi-agency risk assessment conference—which basically means that they are at risk of grievous bodily harm or death, or where the violence has been found as a fact in the family courts. Further, most of this evidence has to be obtained in the past 12 months. The proposed narrow evidential gateway appears to fly in the face of the Government’s commitment and, indeed, in the face of what I believe to have been a universally agreed understanding about the nature and extent of domestic violence in our country, as well as its impact on victims whether they are men, women or children.
The simple truth is that if the current proposal is brought into force, genuine victims are going to be excluded from obtaining the help and support they desperately need to bring themselves and their children into a place of safety. In its current proposed terms, a police officer’s statement that he or she believes that domestic violence is present will not be enough evidence to gain the victim legal aid. Nor will a medical certificate from a general practitioner or confirmation from social services be enough. Indeed, a victim whose abuser has admitted to domestic violence but has avoided a criminal conviction by agreeing to attend a rehabilitation programme or make an undertaking will not be able to access legal aid. We know that in the case of 99 per cent of those who participated in the Rights of Women survey at least one incident of domestic violence had been reported to the police or the police had attended an incident involving domestic violence, yet only 8.3 per cent of those surveyed would be able to prove that they had ongoing criminal proceedings in the previous 12 months—the test that the Government now wish to apply. There is no suggestion that those women were anything other than genuine victims of domestic violence. A wide range of statutory and voluntary sector professionals and agencies was reported to have been aware of domestic violence but, under current proposals, much of this evidence would not be accepted by the Government.
Baroness Scotland of Asthal
My Lords, I waited with bated breath to hear what the noble Lord said because I hoped that his remarks might give me some comfort. I regret to say that they did not, not least because he has not addressed the issue raised in Committee and in this debate about the other forms of information that are seen to be of use in determining the objectivity needed in the evidential criteria. The Minister also has not explained why he believes that the UKBA definition for the evidential gateway is not sufficient to give the Government the assurance that they need that bona fide allegations of domestic violence will be supported and no other.
I shall reply to the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, about the comments made in Committee by the noble Lord, Lord Macdonald. The noble Lord, Lord Macdonald, made a very powerful speech in Committee with which I wholeheartedly agreed. He said that,
“frequently victims of domestic violence seek support other than from the authorities, for obvious reasons; they seek it from doctors, support organisations, social services and the like. Material from these sources should be acceptable as evidence for the purposes of the legal aid gateway”.—[Official Report, 18/1/12; col. 589.]
Lord Thomas of Gresford
Does the noble and learned Baroness accept that my noble friend Lord Macdonald tabled Amendment 39? Paragraph (b) of that amendment is wider than her definition because it can include matters other than the circumstances that she has set out, which are suitable for immigration matters and can include matters that come to the Lord Chancellor’s notice at a later date that could easily be inserted into these regulations, if appropriate. Does she accept, with that presumption and that wider ambit, that my amendment, which, as the Minister has said, will be the template for these regulations, is a better amendment than her own?
Baroness Scotland of Asthal
I regret that I do not. Let me explain why. The framework included in our amendments is the framework that currently works and is in use by all practitioners. If the Minister wished to add a provision that could add to those criteria, I would be more than happy. As it stands, I hope the noble Lord will accept that our amendment is broader in terms than his and has the degree of specificity that enables victims to have the assurance that that which is currently used as the evidential base can still be used as the evidential base in future.
Lord Thomas of Gresford
It is the specificity of her amendment that I complain about because it puts into the Bill in stone what is required, whereas the amendment tabled by my noble friend Lord Macdonald, given what he said in his speech, which the noble and learned Baroness quoted with approval, is wider in that it leaves open other circumstances to be considered.
Baroness Scotland of Asthal
My Lords, I do not accept that. I accept that it sets in stone the minimum criteria and that additional matters can be added. I am looking at the minimum. I say that because today UKBA uses this definition. It has used it since 2004, and there has been no suggestion in the eight years that it has been applied that it has been improperly used or does not meet the needs of the case. My contention is that if it ain’t broke, why are we seeking to fix it?
Baroness Stowell of Beeston
I think the noble Lord knows what I was about say. We are on Report.
Baroness Scotland of Asthal
I thank the noble Baroness, although, of course, it is always a delight to do battle with the noble Lord across the Dispatch Box.
I shall deal with the second issue raised by the noble Lord. He referred to the noble Lord, Lord Macdonald, and spoke about what has happened in the past 10 years. I shall remind him of what the noble Lord, Lord Macdonald, said. He said:
“I have a major problem with an approach that risks rolling back decades of progress in our understanding of a crime that is an absolute scourge, not least in the way that it condemns so many of the children who live with it to disordered and chaotic later lives of their own. Talking of cost, that brings its own very high cost, which all of us have to pay”.—[Official Report, 18/1/12; col. 591.]
Therefore, I absolutely agree with what the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, said about the impact on children. It affects 750,000 children in our country every year, and that is a price too high to pay. We can save money, and we can also save lives. The system that we implemented, which was agreed to by all parts of the House, saved £6 for every £1 we spent, and we saved £7.5 billion a year, so what we propose in these amendments will save lives and costs. There is no reason why we should be retrogressive and go back to where we were before 1997 when the previous Government came in. I do not believe that that is really what the coalition wants. I would like to believe that it, like us, believes that we have come a long way in supporting victims, and we do not want to go back. That is why I will be seeking the opinion of the House.
Lord McNally
I did not want to interrupt the noble and learned Baroness’s peroration, but for the assistance of the House, if a Division is called, if Amendment 2 is carried, we do not accept that Amendments 41, 43 and 44 are consequential. However, we will not divide the House when they come up. I assume that the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, will not move Amendment 39. We wait with great anticipation. I will be moving the government amendments in the usual way. You lot have had a lot more experience at doing this than me. I hope that is of help to the House.
Baroness Scotland of Asthal
I thank the noble Lord for that helpful indication. I agree with him. I would argue that my amendments are consequential, but I am very grateful for his gracious indication that he will not press that point.
Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill
Baroness Scotland of Asthal Excerpts(12 years, 10 months ago)
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Baroness Shackleton of Belgravia
I shall speak in support of the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, in particular on Amendment 41, which deals with child abduction. I saw the Minister wave his white hanky, which I hope is a sign of peace. If we are to look after what is in the paramount interest of a child, in most circumstances, that means contact with both parents. In the absence of legal aid, the parent who does not want to have contact effective—who wants to frustrate contact—will simply up sticks and go off with the child. If that happens, it is extremely important that measures are taken instantly to return the child because, if not, the child will become accustomed to living in the place to which it is abducted and it will be much more difficult to get it back. Absence of legal aid will encourage people to do that, which is of great concern.
Baroness Scotland of Asthal
My Lords, the Minister has had a powerful display of the House’s feeling on these matters. It is of note that not one person has spoken during Committee in support of the Government's position. Perhaps that is not surprising. When we consider issues that refer to children who have not been responsible for poor conduct but have found themselves in difficult and painful positions, the House has always spoken with one voice to protect the child and ensure that their rights are upheld. That is something that all sides of this House have always agreed and acted on in unison. I, for one, am not surprised that we have had powerful speeches from all Benches about the paramount interests of the child and the need to ensure that legal advice and support is available.
If the Government's proposals succeed, as the House knows, they will mean that more than 210,000 fewer private family cases will qualify for legal help; 45,000 fewer private family cases will qualify for legal representation; and 68,000 children will be affected by legal aid being removed for family contact and finance disputes. The noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, spoke about the importance of family contact, as did the noble Baroness, Lady Shackleton.
The reason that there is unison on that issue is that any noble Lord who has participated in family cases knows the difficulty that such contact cases promote. Of the 68,000 children who will be deprived of legal aid, the majority fall within the poorest sector of society, because 95 per cent of those in receipt of civil and family legal help are in the bottom income quintile. That means that they are most in need of help, support and succour. The social implications are considerable. Fifty-seven per cent of the members of Resolution who were surveyed believe that parents risk losing contact with their children in at least half of its cases. That amounts to more than 4,000 children according to the lawyers surveyed alone.
The rise in the number of litigants in person for whom mediation is unsuitable and legal aid is unavailable will add more pressure to the court system, which is facing the closure of 40 per cent of courts. Ninety-nine per cent of those asked said that cases take longer when parties represent themselves, and the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, gave graphic examples of what will happen when a case takes a week. At the moment, more than 90 per cent of private family law cases are settled. The 10 per cent which go to law are the most intractable and most difficult.
Family law is slightly different from many other forms of litigation. Most family lawyers worth their salt see their job as damage limitation because, when a family breaks down, everyone loses and there are no winners. Therefore, if a case has to go to court, we are dealing with even greater failure. The court has grown accustomed to relying on lawyers who, in this area, are not rich fat cats. Over half of those surveyed who practise family law earn less than £35,000 and a fifth earn less than £25,000, which is less than the UK’s median annual salary. We are dealing with people who are trying to give succour to families.
The wide spectrum of law that has been spoken about—welfare law, family law and housing law—all interact. Stephen Cobb, chairman of the Family Law Bar Association, put it succinctly when he said that without access to justice—by which he meant effective access—for broken families, wider society would pay a very high price indeed. That is what we have heard echoing right around the Chamber from virtually every single speaker today.
The Family Justice Review has identified that in a significant number of cases serious child welfare and safeguarding concerns are raised when families appear in a private law court case, and those can trigger investigations by local authorities and result in public law proceedings. Statistics in the NSPCC’s report of November 2011, All Babies Count, show that around 20,000 children are living with a parent who has used class A drugs in the past year—we are talking about babies under a year old—around 100,000 live with a parent who is a problem drinker, and around 150,000 live with a parent who has a common mental health problem. One in every two cohabiting couples will have split by the time their children are five years old, and at least half of these children will face a parental breakdown. Not all couples will require a courtroom but, for those who do, many vulnerable adults will have no access to justice in private law and will be left with a choice of mediation or litigation in person—litigation which will add to, not detract from the difficulties that the family is likely to face.
For all the reasons that have been given powerfully by every single speaker, I seriously ask the noble Lord to think again. I respectfully suggest that the Government’s approach to this issue lacks foresight. It lacks full consideration of the consequences of the Bill for families for whom legal funding is not available, legal advice is not affordable and mediation is unlikely to be suitable. The cost of mediation is currently estimated by the Government to be between £6,000 and £10,000. If the Government’s own figures are right, the research indicates that it is likely to cost £48 million to undertake the mediation proposed. If half of those cases do not succeed in reaching a settlement, we will be left with dealing with them in the court in a way that is unlikely to be helpful if legal advice and support are not made available.
One of the benefits of having had such powerful speeches and it now being so late is that the noble Lord will have one relief: namely, that I do not intend to deal with each and every speech seriatim. I know that that at least is something which will make him smile, although I suppose that nothing else from this debate is likely to. I invite him to take away from this debate the strong expression made by every single speaker that what this Government are proposing is unjust, wrong, and should no longer continue. The noble Lord may think that he will get rejoicing not only in the ranks by further waving the white handkerchief. If that wave is to say he concedes, I can tell him that there will be much rejoicing in heaven.
Baroness Scotland of Asthal
I understand that the Minister is trying to give a full response, but in his valiant reply he said that the international child abduction cases were difficult and complex and that domestic abduction cases were not. Will he think again on that issue, not least because the complexity of the issues relating to abduction is similar in both domestic and international cases? Quite often the parents are greatly distressed, very confused and in need of the quick, experienced lawyer who is able to navigate the system. Many lawyers find abduction cases difficult and international cases are not very dissimilar. Will the Minister take back to the department that the belief that domestic cases may be easier than international cases is not quite as it may think it is.
Lord McNally
That is always the problem. If you say that one thing is more difficult it is implied that the others are easier. No, I was not implying that. I take the noble and learned Baroness’s point. One of the more difficult areas is where there is a break-up of a family and a loss of contact. I shall read what has been said and take it back.
Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill
Baroness Scotland of Asthal Excerpts(12 years, 10 months ago)
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Baroness Scotland of Asthal
My Lords, I very much agree with everything that my noble friend has just said with her great common sense and straightforwardness. She is right about the two questions but she is also right that this Bill has caused real anxiety, particularly among the most vulnerable. That is clear from what everyone has said in this debate. If the economic case is a clear and well evidenced one, I respectfully suggest to the Minister that that would be the greatest salve he could apply to the anxiety which has been caused in so many people’s minds.
I wish to add to what was said by the noble Lord, Lord Carlile. It is not just the vulnerable who find courts intimidating. Noble Lords will know that in this Bill it is proposed to remove all private family law from the scope of legal aid. All litigants, notwithstanding their normal level of articulacy, intellect and performance, find that area of law particularly challenging, delicate and painful. In those cases, the old adage is applied by lawyers that the client who represents himself is a fool. It is in those cases that help and support are particularly needed. The noble Lord will know that it is also an area where women tend to be disproportionately adversely affected, and that in domestic violence cases, which apply to men and women, 89 per cent of repeat victims are women. Therefore, there is real concern about the changes that are proposed if we do not understand the economic cost of so doing and the justification for it. Even those who are not poor have difficulty in family cases, particularly where the male member of the family is well endowed with money but the woman is not. Many women in that situation who may come from very advantaged families are obliged to use legal aid and will simply not try to receive their rights if they do not have it. One is therefore facing a potentially disproportionate and negative impact on women in those circumstances.
I therefore ask the noble Lord to think very carefully indeed about whether the evidence we have at the moment suffices and enables us to answer the two questions in particular that have been raised by my noble friend. If they cannot be answered in the affirmative, I hope that the Government will seriously think again.
Lord Dubs
My Lords, perhaps I may add a brief point to the debate, and I very much agree with the comments that have been made. A number of Members of this House have been Members of the Commons, as I have been, and we relied heavily in our advice surgeries on being able to steer people towards citizens’ advice bureaux or, indeed, to lawyers who could do a good job. However, one phenomenon that has disappeared more recently, but which was very marked as regards immigration cases in the 1980s, is people who set themselves up as advisers and who normally give thoroughly bad advice to distressed people who want help. One had to deal with that. If I got hold of constituents who were in such difficulties, I always steered them to the CAB, to the local law centre in Wandsworth or to decent lawyers.
I am worried that the phenomenon may happen again whereby, in the absence of legal aid support for certain types of cases, people will set themselves up as advisers who will pretend that they are doing this on the cheap and give advice that is not of the best quality and is, given my experience, thoroughly bad. I very much hope that one consequence of the Government’s measures will not be that people can set themselves up and mislead distressed and vulnerable people, take some of their money from them, and provide advice that is not at all helpful.
Lord McNally
No. The commitment is to the expenditure from my department, and factored in are discussions with other departments which leave us confident that the kind of disproportionate impact which has been suggested will not occur. However, one knows how fluid these matters are when discussing government budgets. For example, how do last summer’s riots feed into the demand for prison places or indeed the demand for legal aid? There are variables and unknowns in these matters, but we have put forward our objective of cutting the legal aid bill by £350 million in a way that we hope is focused and takes account of some of the issues that have been raised. For example, domestic violence is in scope. We will have debates later about definitions of domestic violence, but to suggest that domestic violence is being taken out of scope is plainly not fair.
Baroness Scotland of Asthal
My Lords, I make it plain to the Minister and reassure him that no one is trying to be unfair in relation to domestic violence. The noble Lord will know that the impediments that have been put in the way of someone getting legal aid for domestic violence are quite acute. They have to have had an injunction within the previous 12 months, and there either has to be a person imprisoned within 12 months or the victim has to come at the top of the scale—that is, by being at threat of death or grievous bodily harm. That is an undue hurdle to overcome.
Secondly, we know that in many private law cases there are elements of domestic violence that are not proceeded with because the parties have lawyers and come to a settlement. The noble Lord wishes to use mediation. However, the King's College figures show that the additional mediation services that we would need would cost £46 million to £48 million; the Government's figures show that we have £10 million in the budget. Therefore, it is for these reasons that we ask for the evidence for the savings that will be made, because it does not appear to be there now.
Lord McNally
We will discuss this point at a further stage of the Bill. I compare that intervention by the noble and learned Baroness with her earlier one which was more broad-brush in its general condemnation. We will discuss the other areas when we come to them.
I will speak also about the issue of litigants in person, on which Amendment 195 focuses. I heard what was said, in particular by a number of noble and learned Lords—I do not think that the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, qualifies as learned.
Community Justice Centre: North Liverpool
Baroness Scotland of Asthal Excerpts(12 years, 12 months ago)
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Lord McNally
I would hope that it is the kind of more holistic inquiry that my noble friend suggests. That is what we are trying to do, obviously within budgetary constraints. We are examining various ideas and experiments in the United Kingdom, the United States and around the world, to see how best practice and best efficiency can be achieved. That is what we hope will be the outcome of this inquiry and future development of policy.
Baroness Scotland of Asthal
My Lords, I wonder whether the noble Lord will be able to tell us whether the learning from the North Liverpool Community Justice Centre that was spread to places like Salford has been and is going to be continued.
Public Bodies Bill [HL]
Baroness Scotland of Asthal Excerpts(13 years ago)
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Baroness Linklater of Butterstone
My Lords, we are absolutely delighted with this news. It is the triumph of sweet reason and I congratulate the Minister on what has been his absolute grit.
Just to say a brief word, it is difficult to exaggerate the importance of the work of the Youth Justice Board as it is currently operating. It works in the interests of the most vulnerable, difficult and challenging children. In doing so, the board is meeting the interests of us all as its work has implications for both our society today and the nature of our society tomorrow, of which these children will be part. It is also difficult to exaggerate the value and quality of the organisation that the YJB has become over the past few years under Frances Done and John Drew. Further, it advises the Secretary of State for Justice on the operation of the youth justice system. It is the overarching and co-ordinating body for the secure estate for children, for youth offending teams and, increasingly, for other government departments and agencies in both the voluntary and private sectors that make provision for children who offend. This is a great development and another reason why we should rejoice in the continued life of the Youth Justice Board as we know it.
It is worth reminding ourselves that, while the Minister, Crispin Blunt, already has wide-ranging powers of oversight in statute, he needs the wisdom and advice of a highly experienced and knowledgeable arm’s-length body that is expert in the field of children to inform and advise him. It is excellent to learn that he will continue to have that help from the YJB. I was going to say a bit more, as did the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, about the board’s remarkable success in keeping the show on the road and doing such extraordinary work during the riots. It is a story that is not well understood or loudly told, but it has been absolutely extraordinary.
I end by saying that we are delighted and grateful that the work of the YJB can continue. It is the best possible news for the children whose challenges and needs can still be met, for their families and for society as a whole. We are the richer for this decision.
Baroness Scotland of Asthal
My Lords, perhaps I may add my voice to all those who have already applauded the Government on their sterling efforts and on seeing good sense. As one of those who perhaps was responsible for gently urging the Government to turn, I think it is only right and proper to add my many congratulations to the Government on taking this important step—not least because, having had the advantage of the help, advice and support of the YJB, I know that Ministers in the Ministry of Justice will quickly come to realise that they could never have made a better decision.
The Earl of Listowel
My Lords, I also want briefly to thank the Minister for this announcement and to say how grateful I am to the Government for the careful way that they have listened to the concerns of noble Lords, for the meetings with the Secretary of State and for their attempts to adjust their plans in order to meet those concerns. I am extremely glad to hear this good news today. There is much more work to be done. As the population of children in custody reduces, as it has been, those remaining in custody are more difficult and challenging, so we need the best possible systems and approaches in place to deal with these higher levels of need. Again, I would like to express my thanks to the Minister and the Secretary of State for this decision.
Baroness Scotland of Asthal
My Lords, perhaps I may add a few words to those already so ably spoken by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf. He mentioned that the civil justice and criminal justice systems are already covered by a council, one for each. Noble Lords will know that approximately 63,000 cases come before the civil justice courts and that approximately 223,000 come before the criminal courts, but 650,000 cases come before tribunals. Although this afternoon we have talked loosely about administrative law, one has to understand that this is the meat and drink of the lives of ordinary men and women in our country. We are talking about the benefits system, immigration and all the issues that touch the lives of many poor people who do not have the wherewithal to go anywhere else. Therefore, this council’s role is at least, if not more, important than the councils that are being preserved for the civil and criminal justice systems. It is acknowledged by all who know the council’s work that it is a very precious resource. It safeguards the situation for the citizen, and in these days of fiscal austerity the need for it has never been greater.
Legal aid is being threatened. The proposed restrictions are severe. If implemented, the citizen’s need for an avenue through which administrative acts by the Government of the day can be challenged will be enhanced. The question is: if this amendment is not passed and if the Government are not asked to think again, how do they propose to retain the independence that has always been deserved and needed by the individual? How then do we ensure the transparency and fairness which we have all come to recognise as an integral part of administrative justice? I ask the noble Lord to think very seriously indeed about whether the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Newton, is not a lifeline which the Government should now seize.
When dealing with mistakes—and I honestly believe that this is a very grave mistake indeed—Confucius gave the following advice, and I will read it just to help the Minister, who may be minded to accept it:
“Be not ashamed of mistakes and thus make them crimes. But a man who has committed a mistake and does not correct it is making another mistake”.
I suggest that Confucius was right, and that the noble Lord should avoid that trap.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, the noble Lord has already given his views. He has had a little time perhaps to reflect on the debate, and one can only hope that having heard the debate he might come back a second time with a somewhat more responsive point of view than we originally heard. I certainly, from the opposition Benches, once again support the noble Lord, Lord Newton, on this. I thought he made the case eloquently once again for the value of the Administrative Justice and Tribunals Council and the impact for good that it has on the performance of many government departments in Whitehall. In particular, I pay tribute to the council for its focus on what it describes as improving initial decision-making as it affects members of the public. That is surely the importance of the council; it is concerned with administrative processes in relation to members of the public.
My noble and learned friend Lady Scotland referred to legal aid. It is interesting to reflect—indeed, my noble friend referred to this earlier in our debates—on the council’s comments on the impact on legal aid. I am not raising the issue of legal aid; the point is that the council has said that it believes that the Government bear responsibility for,
“causing many of the appeals in the administrative justice system … through poor … decision-making, poor communications … delay or through overly complex and … incomprehensible legislation and regulations”.
The council has been making these points for over 50 years and it has undoubtedly led to improvements in these administrative processes. There is clearly still some way to go. From what the noble Lord, Lord McNally, has said, we are to believe that everything will be all right because his department will be able to analyse the performance of different government departments, comment on them and encourage them to improve their administrative processes.
Is it realistic to think that the Ministry of Justice will be able to make that kind of statement and identify faults in administrative processes in other departments of government, let alone in itself? Of course, the Ministry of Justice will have to be subject to some kind of scrutiny by the team of officials that will be based in the Minister's department. The history of trying to influence government departments in this area surely shows that an external advisory body would be much more likely to have an impact, particularly if it were able to make public statements about the faults it finds in decision-making processes, than would a unit in the department of the noble Lord, Lord McNally.
Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill
Baroness Scotland of Asthal Excerpts(13 years ago)
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Baroness Scotland of Asthal
My Lords, I declare my interest as chair of the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Domestic and Sexual Violence and founder and patron of the Corporate Alliance Against Domestic Violence and the Global Foundation for the Elimination of Domestic Violence.
Many elements of the Bill have already been alluded to in part and are meritorious of our anxious consideration and concern. For my part, I wish to concentrate on the provisions that affect domestic violence. The noble Lord said that they were to be preserved in relation to private law concerns, but I have to say to him that the preservation that has been retained does not adequately meet the needs of domestic violence victims. I also wish to say straightaway that throughout the years when I had the privilege of addressing the House from where the Minister now sits, I was always confident that I would have on domestic violence the total support of all those who now sit on the Benches opposite. Nothing ever divided us. Indeed, I do not see the Chief Whip in her place, but many in this House will remember her trenchant support. Indeed, she was very much my comrade in arms.
I understand that the provisions that are now coming before us are coming before us because it is felt that the fiscal position we now find ourselves in is such that drastic reform has to be made. I also understand what the noble Lord has said, on this occasion and in the past: that hard choices have to be made. However, may I say that hard choices have to be made but they should be the right choices? They should be made on principle and with a proper understanding of what is just and proper. It is right for us to remind ourselves, as the Constitution Select Committee has reminded us, that these issues are of constitutional importance. I draw the House’s attention to what the committee said in its report. At paragraph 7, it reiterates the comments made by the late Lord Bingham:
“In his book, The Rule of Law, the late Lord Bingham forcefully argued that one of the ingredients of the rule of law itself was that ‘means must be provided for resolving, without prohibitive cost or inordinate delay, bona fide disputes which the parties are unable themselves to resolve’. He went on to say that ‘denial of legal protection to the poor litigant who cannot afford to pay is one enemy of the rule of law’”.
When we say that we cannot afford legal aid, we should think very carefully about whether we are saying that we cannot afford justice. Justice should be available in times of good and ill. In times of ill, it is more necessary than ever.
I accept that there has to be some modification, and that cost is a matter of importance. However, I have acute anxiety about the provisions in this Bill. They do not display any proper understanding of the nature of domestic violence, which I find acutely disappointing and, I have to say, surprising. These provisions reduce in both scope and extent the nature of legal aid that will be available to those who suffer from domestic violence. As your Lordships will be only too well aware, one in four women and one in six men are subject to domestic violence in our country. Eighty-nine per cent of victims are women; the repeat victimisation is of women.
It is well known that many victims, through shame and other matters, do not come before the courts with any degree of speed. They are reluctant and resistant and quite often do anything other than go to law. Any suggestion that we have to restrain or restrict the applicants seems misplaced. A woman will normally be assaulted 39 times on average before she will come forward. As your Lordships will know, some women will come forward straightaway but the majority will not, and sometimes they will suffer hundreds of assaults before they do.
These provisions restrict the legal aid given to victims in a number of significant ways. First, the definition of domestic violence is far narrower than the definition that we have all come to accept, which is accepted across government and by practitioners in the field. Secondly, there is a time limit of one year on when the person can come forward; one has to have either obtained an injunction or indeed got a conviction against the perpetrator within a year. Your Lordships will know that quite often abuse goes on for more than a year; for example, if a perpetrator is sentenced to five years’ imprisonment and comes out after two and a half years, he may still present a threat to his wife but that conviction will be more than 12 months ago and therefore the proposed litigant will not get legal aid. Finally, the victim has to have been identified as high risk by the multiagency risk assessment criteria. Your Lordships will know that that means that the victim has to be at risk of either death or grievous bodily harm. Many victims who are in that condition never get to make an application for legal aid. The important thing is to assist individuals long before they get to that stage.
I know that Members opposite care deeply about these issues. I ask the Government to think very carefully indeed about the economic cost of these provisions. Your Lordships will know that as a result of the proper application of a joined-up approach, we have been able to reduce domestic violence in our country by 64 per cent and have saved £7.5 billion in economic costs. Each murder has a cost to the system in excess of £1.1 million. In London alone, from 2003 we reduced domestic homicide significantly. In 2003 there were 49 such homicides. In 2010, when we left government, that figure had been reduced in London to five. If £1.1 million is saved with each murder that is prevented, your Lordships can see very quickly that it will not be very long until we have enough savings to more than pay for the legal aid that is now being withdrawn.
There are many things that we should do, but I say to the House very strongly indeed that the provisions on domestic violence are not one of them. This is a cut that we cannot afford, both in human terms and economically. I will be asking the Government to think again. There are so many provisions to look at, but I ask the Government to give these provisions particular and anxious consideration.
I will add just one more word, if I may, on the welfare claims. We know that the Government are currently minded to remove the Administrative Justice and Tribunals Council. The noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, has already indicated that over 650,000 cases are dealt with by the tribunal system. If we are not to have legal aid, and if we are not to have the supervision and oversight of the AJTC, how do the Government think that justice can be preserved?