Brexit: Legislating for the United Kingdom’s Withdrawal from the European Union

Debate between Baroness Royall of Blaisdon and Lord Taylor of Holbeach

Thursday 30th March 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

We have to hear from the noble Baroness on the Conservative Benches.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach (Con)]

I understand that my noble friend does not wish to proceed.

Brexit: Article 50

Debate between Baroness Royall of Blaisdon and Lord Taylor of Holbeach

Monday 7th November 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

We really should try to go round the House. It is the Labour Party’s turn.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, the Minister rightly celebrates the independence of the judiciary. However, my noble and learned friend Lord Falconer asked him to condemn the words of Sajid Javid, who by his words undermined what the Minister is saying. What the right honourable Minister said was completely unacceptable; indeed, those words corrode the very democracy that the noble Lord seeks to uphold. Please will he condemn the words of the right honourable Sajid Javid?

Human Trafficking and Modern Slavery

Debate between Baroness Royall of Blaisdon and Lord Taylor of Holbeach

Thursday 12th June 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I know that the noble Baroness, who was also a member of the pre-legislative scrutiny committee on the Bill, has a particular point of view on this matter. It is the Government’s view that modern slavery is about not just children but also adults, and that the law on modern slavery needs to be clearly applied to everybody who is a victim of this dreadful scourge.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon (Lab)]

My Lords, as has been said, we welcome the Bill, but clearly we will give it very proper scrutiny in this House when it arrives, because there may well be things that we wish to add. Having said that, I am delighted that it focuses on victims and perpetrators, but looking at the situation at Iraq at the moment—we look with horror at what is happening in Mosul—what can be done on the ground to ensure that people are not exploited as they flee from these terrible conditions?

Immigration Bill

Debate between Baroness Royall of Blaisdon and Lord Taylor of Holbeach

Monday 12th May 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

My Lords, this has been an interesting and useful debate. I deliberately did not mention the reasons for the Commons rejection when I made my introductory speech. It is for Erskine May rather than a humble Minister to determine these matters. I thought it was more important to present the arguments on the issue to the House. I am pleased that we have had a chance to reconsider this. These past few days have been very useful. I think noble Lords who have been involved will agree with that.

I thank the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, the noble Baronesses, Lady Royall and Lady Howarth of Breckland, and my noble friends Lady Hamwee, Lady Williams and Lord McColl for their contributions on these points. On the point made by my noble friend Lord McColl, we agree that these roles must have a statutory basis so that they have the respect and co-operation of all the various agencies that will engage with supporting the child. We will ensure that provisions in future legislation will deliver this. I will welcome the continued engagement of all noble Lords who have spoken on this issue. I doubt that noble Lords will be prepared to let this matter go on the back burner. I am sure that we will be under pressure and that I will be answering questions on a regular basis about how things are going.

Once we have a provider for the advocacy position in place, I will be happy to place in the Library the sort of detail that has been asked for today by noble Lords. I would like noble Lords to be informed of where we are on the issue. On the particular request for interested Members of the House to be able to visit trial sites, I will ask officials to discuss this request with the service provider and local authorities. I doubt very much whether a request of that nature would be refused.

We all agree that these children are incredibly vulnerable. As I have said, we cannot prejudge the outcome of the trials, although I am sure the Secretary of State will want to ensure that the learning from the independent evaluation is acted upon so that every child gets the most appropriate possible care.

The noble Baroness, Lady Royall, asked what would trigger the enabling power. The Secretary of State will want to ensure that the learning from the independent evaluation will influence the way in which the power will be exercised. There needs to be a connection between what we learn from the trials, the nature of the problem, the ability of the trials to address the problem and other aspects which become apparent to us during the course of the trials. Perhaps that answers the question asked by my noble friend Lady Hamwee about how it will be judged. It will be judged by a proper evaluation of the trial within the 23 areas in which it is taking place.

I think there is a general feeling that we know we have to make a success of this because it is a great opportunity to help these most vulnerable people. It is patently obvious to me that we share the desire to protect and support these vulnerable children. The disagreement is not about whether support and protection are required, but about how we legislate to provide it. The Government are totally committed to running the trials to ensure we have the very best insight into what these trials need.

My noble friend Lady Williams of Crosby wanted to know about how the operation would be conducted in other areas, and the noble Baroness, Lady Howarth of Breckland, asked how the funding would be dealt with. I do not have to say to the House that funding will clearly be an important issue to get right. If the resources are not available, the project will not be successful. We understand that. How the funding is actually found is an important element of what we will learn from the trials. There will, of course, be a certain amount of lead-in time for the organisation that will supply the service. I therefore confirm that because of the delay it will not now be possible to begin the trials by July. It is now intended that they begin by the end of September, and the Home Secretary will announce the provider shortly.

I thank noble Lords for their agreement that this Bill is not the place for the issue to be resolved, and for not insisting on the guardians amendment that we discussed on Report.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for saying that it is not now envisaged that the trials will start before September, and of course I accept that. However, the amendment proposed by the noble and learned Baroness states that the report should be ready within a year of the dissolution of Parliament, before the next Parliament begins. Can the Minister confirm that there will be enough time for the pilots to be appraised before the report referred to in the amendment comes before Parliament?

Immigration Bill

Debate between Baroness Royall of Blaisdon and Lord Taylor of Holbeach

Monday 7th April 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

The Bill that is presented to Parliament is hardly likely to contain details of this measure because, as I understand it, the intention is to introduce sections on the trafficking advocates during the passage of the Bill, when we will have the information available.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, pilots are often very good places to start. But the noble Lord, Lord McColl, the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, and others first raised this in 2011. We have what I believe to be a very good Bill, the modern slavery Bill, going through pre-legislative scrutiny at the moment, but I do not understand why this is not an integral part of that Bill. The Government have known for a long time that that Bill was coming forward. The pilots could have taken place an awfully long time ago. I am intrigued as to why all the bits of the puzzle were not put together, as would be logical.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

The noble Baroness is perhaps right to chide me, but we are seeking to get this matter right. It is in the interests of the children to make sure that the public authorities that have to deal with this problem have a proper ground on which to do so. This is not an easy area. We are dealing with children whose situation is very different from that which we ourselves experienced as children or, indeed, our own children have experienced. These are very different terms and to get that right is important.

Crime: Stalking

Debate between Baroness Royall of Blaisdon and Lord Taylor of Holbeach

Tuesday 12th March 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

Until the existing offences came in in November, prosecutions had to rely on the Protection from Harassment Act 1997, which shows how long ago it is that this specific crime was legislated for. We now have some new offences. I have tried to reassure the House that by May we will know what the impact of these new offences will be on prosecutions, and I hope that we will see this particular crime being stamped out in the way that it should be.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, can the Minister explain why victims of stalking are not eligible for basic protections available to victims of domestic violence? He might wish to write to me with answers. Apparently domestic violence protective measures such as TecSOS phones, sanctuary schemes and installation of CCTV cameras, which are made available automatically to victims of domestic violence, are not made available to the victims of stalking. It is right and proper that they should have the same protection.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I can certainly research that for the noble Baroness. The Home Office already provides funds to support victims of stalking through the national stalking helpline, which provides help and guidance. Indeed, the independent domestic violence advisers who are also funded by the Government, and the independent sexual violence advisers, have involvement in stalking cases also. It is a very short step between violence and the stalking offence. The Government recognise that and I think noble Lords will too.

Public Bodies Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Royall of Blaisdon and Lord Taylor of Holbeach

Monday 9th May 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, in moving Amendment 2, which will put a time limit on the bodies mentioned in Schedules 1 to 5, I will not rehearse the well honed arguments which have been put forward many times about the importance of sunsetting. Suffice it to say that the sunsetting of the schedules is one of the fundamental and welcome changes which have been made to this Bill. I am very grateful to the Minister for putting his name to this amendment, which appears for a second time because, I have to confess, I failed to move it on Report. I beg to move.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

My Lords, I am delighted to have added my name to Amendment 2, which is also tabled in the names of the noble Baroness, the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, and my noble friend Lord Norton of Louth. As the noble Baroness has said, perhaps she failed to move the amendment on Report, but then so did I. I think we were all caught up in the heat of the moment after a Division, so I am pleased that we have an opportunity to bring it back again. It is the outcome of a constructive engagement across the House and I thank noble Lords for their input into the process and for retabling the amendment to ensure that it becomes part of the Bill.

Grouped with Amendment 2 are three government amendments to clauses relating Welsh Ministers. They are essentially minor and technical in nature and have been requested by the Welsh Assembly Government. Amendment 3 clarifies that Clause 13(6) refers to internal drainage boards which have responsibility for geographic areas partially but not wholly within Wales. National boundaries do not necessarily follow catchment areas. Amendment 4 is a drafting amendment to ensure that the procedure for transfer schemes made by Welsh Ministers under Clause 23 applies to transfer schemes set up in connection with orders made under Clause 13. Amendment 10 alters the Long Title to reflect the fact that the Bill as amended on Report grants powers to Welsh Ministers in Clause 13 in relation to a number of other bodies and offices in addition to those powers that already exist in relation to environmental bodies specified in, and by virtue of, Clause 12. These amendments rightly clarify the Government’s intentions for the use of powers in the Bill and I trust that they will be welcomed by the House.

Charity Commission: Bogus Charities

Debate between Baroness Royall of Blaisdon and Lord Taylor of Holbeach

Wednesday 4th May 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I cannot deny that there is always a link between resources and function. My noble friend points out that there is a review of the functioning of charities legislation coming up at the end of this year, which will be very important and I am sure will have these matters in mind. But I am also sure that noble Lords will appreciate that the Government’s priority at the moment is about spending priorities, given the need to provide deficit reduction.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, what criteria does the Charity Commission apply in its assessment of whether UK charities with expenditure overseas do conform to charitable objectives as defined by statute?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

My Lords, it is up to the trustees of all charities because they are responsible for the audit trail of their financial expenditure. On scrutiny, all charities are subject to proper regulation of their gift aid through HMRC.

Civil Contingencies Act 2004 (Amendment of List of Responders) Order 2011

Debate between Baroness Royall of Blaisdon and Lord Taylor of Holbeach

Wednesday 27th April 2011 Grand Committee

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I too thank the Minister for his clear explanation. However, I wonder whether the order comes back to the much heralded bonfire of the quangos and the abolition of government offices throughout the UK. Thanks to the tremendous changes following the Minister’s work on the Public Bodies Bill, we know that the vast sums that the Government initially planned to secure as a result of a bonfire of the quangos that will get rid of government offices throughout the UK will not be realised. I make no criticism of that, as I believe that that is in many ways the difference between the rhetoric of opposition and the realism of government. However, it is clear that, even if a body such as the Government Office for London has been abolished, the functions still have to be maintained. That is why this order is so important, because it will ensure the continuity of these very important duties.

The order does not raise any problems as far as I can see. As the Minister said, it will bring London more into line with what is happening in the rest of the country, which is of course to be welcomed. I also note that the costs will all be for the GLA, so central government will not face any increased burden. The Explanatory Memorandum states:

“The impact on business, charities or voluntary bodies”,

and,

“on the public sector is minimal”.

However, I would be grateful for one assurance from the Minister. As a consequence of these structural changes, can he assure us that all the services that are mentioned in paragraph 7.3 of the Explanatory Memorandum will be safeguarded? Of course, pandemics and severe weather are both of the utmost importance. As the noble Lord, Lord Maclennan, said, in these unstable times when we have the Olympics upon us in the very near future, I would be grateful for an assurance from the Minister that resistance plans for the Olympic Games will be safeguarded and enhanced by this legislation.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

My Lords, I am very grateful to both noble Lords who have spoken for their welcoming of this draft order and for their support for what I think is widely seen as a logical development.

The noble Baroness, Lady Royall, sought perhaps to broaden the debate into the wider issue of public bodies. I will resist that temptation except to say that clearly there will be opportunities for a more streamlined management of London’s affairs through the Greater London Authority. That is one of the strategic advantages that this move will provide for. There will indeed be financial demands on the Greater London Authority, but the comprehensive spending review incorporated that responsibility in forward funding for the authority from central government—this process is being seen as driven not by economy but by efficiency and by the need for London to be properly co-ordinated. While the six key borough groupings provided the function, in the end the reality is that London is a whole and has to be dealt with as a whole. The support that can be given by the GLA and by its resilience team is of paramount importance.

I can say that the actual priorities in setting out a resilience plan are of course a matter for the local resilience authorities and, indeed, the forum that gives advice on such matters. These things are not immutable, but the risk assessment for the Olympics has been in place for a number of years and is regularly updated. I can assure the noble Baroness that there is no suggestion that the comprehensive focus of the London resilience forum and the resilience team in addressing the needs of London will in any way be compromised by this legislation.

I thank my noble friend Lord Maclennan of Rogart for his broad welcome, too. He made the powerful point that, with the Olympics being so imminent, we are very much focused on security. Indeed, we have events this week as well that show how important it is that all aspects of security are taken care of. He asked about the response to the report. I am not in a position to help him on that, but perhaps there might be an opportunity to write to him subsequent to our discussions today.

I hope that the Committee will be able to commend these draft proposals.

Public Bodies Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Royall of Blaisdon and Lord Taylor of Holbeach

Monday 4th April 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

My Lords, it is a great pleasure to introduce this final group of amendments of what has been an excellent Report stage. In moving Amendment 91 I shall speak to the remaining amendments.

Noble Lords will know that considerable concern has been expressed in debate about the relationship between the Bill—and the proposals arising from it—and charities. I am pleased to be able to confirm that the amendments mean that the consent of charities to receive functions as a result of activities under the Bill will have to be sought under the legislation. The amendments are designed to effect that change and I hope that the House will be prepared to accept them.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

I thank the Minister for responding to the concerns that we have expressed throughout the Bill about charities. We think that these amendments fit the bill.

Public Bodies Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Royall of Blaisdon and Lord Taylor of Holbeach

Wednesday 9th March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

I, too, am delighted that the Minister has added his name to the Clause 11 and Schedule 7 stand part debate, and pay tribute to him for listening so attentively to everyone around the Chamber.

I feel sure that I know exactly how it will have happened. He will have been in the Cabinet Office, or wherever, and the Secretary of State will be saying, “Don’t be silly. Of course you can get it through the Lords”. He will be saying, “No, I’m listening. I can't. It’s too difficult”. Eventually, the noble Lord’s arguments will have prevailed, and I am delighted about that.

In moving that the Bill be read a second time, the noble Lord said:

“The fact that a body is named in Schedule 7 to the Bill should not be misconstrued as constituting an intent to abolish or otherwise reform”.—[Official Report, 9/11/10; col. 67.]

He said that in good faith, but it is understandable that any body mentioned in Schedule 7 was immediately worried. Its current operations and future prospects were thrown into doubt and confusion. I recognise that that cannot have been the Government’s intent—that simply does not make economic sense or for good governance—but it was the reality. Each organisation believed itself to be just two orders away from modification, merger or, even worse, abolition. The chilling factor already mentioned was mighty.

If the Minister had not indicated that the Government were minded to delete Clause 11 and Schedule 7, I can assure him that Committee stage would have lasted for even longer, because it would have been our duty to table an amendment on each of the bodies to tease out from the Government their intentions for the body in question. Thankfully, such scrutiny was not needed but, more importantly, the clause and schedule are being deleted, so the axe has been lifted and the bodies mentioned can get on with their work.

I do not want to detain noble Lords at this hour, but I must say that Clause 11 and Schedule 7 were very unwise. They are a testament to rushed drafting and a woeful lack of consultation between the Cabinet Office and other departments. The Government have seen sense; and I am glad. I have a question for the Minister. I presume that some of the bodies mentioned in the schedule might be moved at some stage in the legislative process. Can he say which or how many bodies will be moved, where they will be moved to and when that will be? I would naturally also be grateful for confirmation that the necessary consultation is taking place at this moment with any bodies likely to be moved from Schedule 7 into another schedule.

I have great sympathy with the noble Lord, Lord Norton of Louth, when he says that there should be a Public Bodies Bill at the beginning of each Parliament but, in essence, if we are all content with the framework of this Bill and the schedules are sunsetted, that is what we will have.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I am very grateful for those contributions. If there were any doubt why we were wise not to keep Schedule 7 in the Bill, the answer lies in the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Rowlands. As like as not, nothing would have happened to those bodies. They would have been subject to a review in another three years under a periodic review of public bodies, which is an ongoing commitment of the Government. As the noble Baroness pointed out, it was very difficult for any representative of the Government to convince public bodies that that was the case. We may now have a much more satisfactory solution—from both a parliamentary and a practical point of view—to how the review of public bodies can be an ongoing process.

I thank my noble friend Lord Norton of Louth. He and I have known each other longer, I guess, than any other people in this House. We were youngsters together. Indeed, my noble friend was the William Hague of his day at Conservative Party conferences, but he will probably not thank me very much for revealing that to the House. I thank him for his comments. We have taken the committee’s reports seriously and sought to address them, because I have taken the view that the guidance of this House has been positive rather than destructive.

I turn specifically to a comment of the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, that there was a lack of discussion between the departments. I do not think there has been any Bill in which there has been so much discussion across government departments. It is one of the complexities of this Bill that it involves every department, so all departments have been involved in the preparation and structure of the Bill.

As for the detailed question which the noble Baroness asked me about any movement of bodies into schedules during various stages of the Bill, I am not in a position to give an answer on that at this stage, but I will keep the House informed. We are determined that nothing should be introduced to the Bill that cannot be justified by a strong sense of purpose and suitability, and it is not a large number of bodies involved. Consultations are going on, but there will be a number of bodies where proposals exist to come into the Bill that will not be introduced into the Bill because we do not consider that they are in a suitable state of preparation. We feel that we have to justify the admission of any body that we bring into the Bill at this stage. I think that is a reasonable position, and I hope all Members of the Committee will agree with that.

The noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, and I have talked about the problem that she has. When she talked about the Government being deaf, I hope she was not referring to me. I hope she would acknowledge that I responded immediately to the point she made; I got a response and I showed it to her this evening before we came in here in the hope that we would not have to debate it. That is because it is not really a matter for this Bill; it is a matter of the relationship between public bodies—and particularly those in the legal sector—and Government. I will, of course, write to her on the situation as it is, and I note her interest in the matter. I hope that we can keep in touch.

I should just say a few words on these parts of the Bill. As set out in the House on 28 February, these parts of the Bill were designed to facilitate the Government’s stated commitment to the regular review of all public bodies by creating a means by which changes to such bodies could be made following future reviews without recourse to further primary legislation. It was not, as some have suggested, intended to threaten the status of public bodies that the Government had decided needed to be retained. In particular, the Government recognise that some public functions need to be carried out independently of Ministers. Schedule 7 was never intended to hinder or threaten their independence. However, following representations from noble Lords across the House, including Members of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee, the Government have acknowledged the significant concern within the House that these parts of the Bill represented a significant delegation of powers to Ministers and had the potential to constitute a threat to the necessary independence of some public functions.

Accordingly, I have added my name to those of other noble Lords opposing the question that Clause 11 and Schedule 7 should stand part of the Bill. The consequences of removing these parts from the Bill will be that the powers in the Public Bodies Bill cannot apply to any body or office without the express approval of Parliament through primary legislation for that body or office to be listed in one of the Bill’s schedules. Accordingly, any changes to public bodies following the Government’s planned future reviews which necessitate legislation will require a primary legislative vehicle. I hope that this change provides a significant assurance to the Committee both as regards the status of bodies and the Government’s commitment to the appropriate parliamentary scrutiny of government policy.

As I set out on 28 February, it will also be necessary, as a result of the removal of Schedule 7, to introduce a small number of amendments to move bodies currently in that schedule to one or more of the other schedules. These changes will ensure that all the reforms announced in last year’s review can be implemented. These amendments will be made at a later stage of the Bill.

I thank noble Lords for their contributions to the debate and for their positive and helpful engagement on the question of the proper scope and mechanism of this Bill. Throughout its passage to date I hope that, in agreeing to oppose the question that Clause 11 and Schedule 7 should stand part, I have been able to demonstrate the Government’s commitment to engage with and respond to the concerns of noble Lords.

Public Bodies Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Royall of Blaisdon and Lord Taylor of Holbeach

Monday 7th March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I think my noble friend has said it all. I am grateful to him for raising the proposed merger of these two bodies. Here we have two small but very important organisations that deal with related areas of law but are distinct in their functions. As my noble friend said, one is a regulator and one is an arbitrator. It is fair to say that everybody who knows the two organisations, the people involved and their work is bemused about why they are being merged. They wonder whether it is just a paper exercise in order simply to decrease the number of quangos. The cost savings are potentially very small. I will be grateful if the Minister will tell me what costs will be saved. My noble friend made a point about the separation that must exist between the two functions. It is extremely important that there should be walls, be they Chinese or otherwise, and we need to know that they will exist if the two bodies are merged.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I thank the noble Lord for moving this amendment. He very effectively described the functions of both bodies. They have both existed for many years, and both operate in the sensitive area of trade union and industrial relations law. I stress that the Government value their roles. They are both expert in their respective fields, and they both enjoy solid reputations for impartiality. The similarities do not end there. They both undertake judicial functions, they have a shared understanding of judicial procedures, their officeholders and support staff both possess detailed knowledge of trade unions and of industrial relations more broadly. Both bodies are relatively small and are both housed in the same building. They both receive administrative support from ACAS—the Advisory, Conciliation and Arbitration Service. There is therefore already significant linkage between the two bodies, and the Bill will take that process a stage further by merging them. Some efficiency savings will be produced as a result, but I have to say to the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, that they are not likely to be huge. The total budget costs for both organisations are about £1.25 million, so the efficiency savings will not be huge, but there will be some. In particular, their support staff could be deployed more flexibly to meet the peaks and troughs of case loads.

A merger would also simplify the institutional landscape and avoid any potential confusion in the eyes of users about their respective roles. Therefore, the Government consider that a merger is advantageous to all concerned. A merger will not affect the underlying law which these bodies help to enforce. I should add that the Government have no plans as a consequence of this merger to change the various rights and duties embodied in trade union law. Our intention is to ensure that the merger will not affect the experience of persons, be they individuals, unions or employer groups, who currently use the services of these bodies. In particular, we want to maintain the same procedures which the CAC and the CO currently apply when considering their respective cases. BIS, which has a lead responsibility for these two bodies, has already discussed the potential merger with the CAC, the CO and ACAS, and has sought the views of the TUC and the CBI. We believe that we have reached an understanding on how a workable merger can be achieved.

In summary, there is a strong case for these two small bodies to be merged. We believe that this can be achieved without prejudicing in any way the performance of their important and sensitive duties, and I hope that the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw his amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I rise for two minutes. I was going to say that this was going to be an interesting discussion, but actually I found it a deeply shocking discussion. I am shocked by some of the allegations that have been made this evening. I think that the church has got a very difficult tightrope to walk at this very difficult economic time. Of course it has to care for our heritage, and I am sure that it does care for it deeply, as the right reverend Prelates have said, but its first responsibility at any time should be towards the flock and the people for whom it cares. In doing that, of course, it must also take into account the heritage that we all cherish. I am going to sit down now, but I think that this debate has been perhaps more inflamed than it should be. It perhaps demonstrates the need for greater scrutiny of the Church Commissioners, and I think that perhaps that is something that the Government and the church itself could look at because clearly there is a demand for perhaps more conversations and discussions about things that are going on. However, I am pretty much appalled by some of the things that have been said this evening.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

My Lords, I have enjoyed listening to the debate, but I share some of the noble Baroness’s observations on it. Perhaps it is the lateness of the hour. There is scarcely enough time to consider a topic as significant as this. I think I would have enjoyed the debate more if it had not been in the Public Bodies Bill, but it is clearly not an appropriate topic for this Bill, so I am going to address my remarks purely on those grounds. I think the House may well discuss methods whereby the scrutiny of church affairs could be brought back to this House in some way, but that is a matter for the House authorities. It is certainly not a matter for the Public Bodies Bill.

There are three reasons why the Government cannot accept this amendment, and they have been said. The first is that the Church Commissioners fall outside the scope of the Bill. They are not a non-departmental public body but essentially a non-governmental body and a charity under the scrutiny of the Charity Commissioners.

The second reason is the historic relationship between Parliament, government and the Church of England—perhaps we have seen why this separation of the estates is so important in the nature of the debate that we have had this evening. Since the enabling Act 1919 set up the Church Assembly, now the General Synod, it has been accepted that Parliament does not in practice legislate on the internal affairs of the Church of England without its consent. The mechanism laid down in that Act for legislating on the Church of England included the constitution of the Church Commissioners through synodical measure. There are, of course, methods by which Parliament can put pressure on the church to act, but the noble Lord’s amendment seeks to return to a position in which Ministers would have a direct power to intervene in the governance of the commissioners.

The third reason is that the commissioners’ board of governors, of which the right reverend Prelate is chairman, as trustees of a charity, are under a fiduciary duty to manage their assets in the way that best enables them to achieve their charitable purposes. It is therefore for them to determine how best to do so, including by deciding whether to dispose of particular assets. It is not a matter for Ministers to regulate in the case of this or any other charity. I therefore urge the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.

Census Day

Debate between Baroness Royall of Blaisdon and Lord Taylor of Holbeach

Monday 7th March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

My Lords, it is a household census; therefore the head of the household is responsible for accounting for the people within it on census day. When the Government examine the future of the census, the points that my noble friend has made will be borne in mind.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, it is rumoured that this will be the last census in its current form because of cost. Can the Minister confirm whether that is the case? If it is, how will such data be collected in future? These data are important not only for current planning purposes but for historical purposes as well.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I thank the noble Baroness for that question. The cost of conducting a census is £487 million—an enormous sum which Governments have found has augmented over time. The Government are indeed looking at alternative methods. It may be possible to have much more real-time information—after all, at the end of the 10-year period, the data are already very out of date. A project beyond 2011 has been set up to provide and examine alternatives to the current paper-based method of collecting these data. It will report within the next three or four years.

Public Bodies Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Royall of Blaisdon and Lord Taylor of Holbeach

Monday 28th February 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

No, I do not have that information available, but we know the amount of money that is available for the fund, which I have stated.

Finally, noble Lords raised the question of what will happen to RDA assets and activities. There has been some concern that there might be a fire sale. That is not the case. These bodies will be run down, the relevant clauses of the Bill will become law, and the RDAs will finally be abolished. RDAs have been liaising with the relevant local authorities, local enterprise partnerships and other local partners. On 31 January, all RDAs submitted detailed plans for the disposal of their assets. They recognised that there will be a variety of destinations for these assets, depending on their nature and associated liabilities. These plans are currently being scrutinised by the Government. After scrutiny, each RDA management board will sign off its plan and begin implementation. RDA asset-disposal plans have been developed while taking into account the principles that we set out in the White Paper. These include maximising value for money from these assets, ensuring that liabilities follow assets and passing control down to local level where possible. Where this is not appropriate—where, for example, an asset is of national importance, such as that set up in the south-west and mentioned in the debate, and considerable resources are needed to run it—other options will be considered.

Similarly, co-ordination of some activities formerly undertaken by RDAs will be taken back to national level, and some activities, such as those of the England Rural Development Programme, will retain local accessible support. In some cases, such as managing the European Regional Development Fund and the England Rural Development Programme, we need to ensure compliance with our obligations to the European Union. In other cases, such as co-ordination of inward investment activity, we need to ensure that we can put over a coherent and effective message to potential investors. However, even in those cases, we are setting up mechanisms under which local partnerships have the opportunity to influence policy and help drive the decisions we make. For all these reasons, we do not believe that retaining all or any of the nine RDAs will help to achieve local growth. I therefore ask the noble Baroness to withdraw her amendment, and for noble Lords not to move theirs.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for his response, which I will carefully consider, and I look forward to the letters that he has undertaken to write. All around the Chamber we would agree that regional development is key to the economic recovery of this country. RDAs have been, and for the moment are, excellent strategic catalysts for growth. I have to say that I am not confident that their replacement by LEPs will suffice. However, I will take into consideration what the noble Lord has said. At this juncture I beg leave to withdraw the amendment, but I reserve the right to bring something back at Report.

Public Bodies Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Royall of Blaisdon and Lord Taylor of Holbeach

Wednesday 1st December 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I am trying to use the opportunity of this debate to reassure the noble Lord about the process that will exist following the passage of the Bill, that no action can be taken without proper consultation and impact assessments. Noble Lords know that. I have said this many times. However, I have listened to what has been said about the need for information. I appreciate that the Committee and the House would like more information on proposed changes, and I take that matter on board.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

I am sorry to delay the noble Lord once more. However, in that information, if we are to take real decisions about whether important bodies such as the Agricultural Wages Board, which we were discussing earlier, are to remain in existence, then the information that the noble Lord is very kindly going to provide us with must include an impact assessment on, for example, the costs. Otherwise, we cannot come to a clear and rational decision.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

Indeed, I reassure the noble Baroness that any instrument produced under the Bill to enact any of the powers within it will contain that information. That is the position. This is not primary legislation to abolish the Agricultural Wages Board or the Audit Commission. That is not what the Bill is about; it is intended to empower the executive with the ability to bring forward secondary legislation in order to facilitate change. It is at that stage that the legislation occurs. It is very important to get that message over.

We have produced an impact assessment for the Bill. It talks about changes to particular bodies made under the orders of the Bill, and they will be produced in accordance with its existing rules and guidance on impact assessments at the appropriate time. Perhaps I may continue by addressing the amendment. After all, the noble Lord has proposed that we should include the Audit Commission in Schedule 1, and I wish to tell the Committee why I think that suggestion needs to be resisted and why there may well be a better way of dealing with the policy change which the coalition has announced in order to deal with it.

The Government intend, where appropriate, to use the power in the Public Bodies Bill to make changes to public bodies. However, the changes regarding the Audit Commission require power changes to legislation which is outside the scope of the Public Bodies Bill. Therefore we are setting up an alternative legislative vehicle. I will explain the background to that. On 13 August, the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government announced plans to disband the Audit Commission and refocus audits on helping local people to hold local bodies to account for local spending, as well as on saving the taxpayer some £50 million a year. This figure reinforces the one given by my noble friend Lady Hanham.

The commission’s responsibility for overseeing and delivering local audits will stop, its research activities will end and its in-house audit practice will be moved to the private sector. We are considering a range of options for doing this. Councils will be free to appoint their own independent external auditors from a more competitive and open market, and there will be new audit arrangements for local health bodies. All local audits will be regulated within a statutory framework, with oversight roles for the National Audit Office and the profession. As a result, the Audit Commission’s in-house practice will be transferred out of public ownership. A range of options are being considered and evaluated for moving the audit practice into the private sector. The department is now working closely with the commission, the accountancy profession, local government and the health sector to develop the detailed design of the new systems, and to take forward, in the most effective way, the transfer of the commission’s in-house audit practice into the private sector. This work is ongoing. We are aiming for the new regime to begin to come into effect during 2012-13. That regime will require primary legislation and as such, this timetable is dependent on parliamentary time. If the noble Lord’s amendment were to succeed, it would mean that the Government could use the power in Clause 1 to abolish the Audit Commission. However, the Government would not be able to ensure that a robust statutory framework for local audit is put into place.

This is the statutory regime for the audit of local authorities and local health bodies, including foundation trusts and other NHS trusts. For example, the powers in the Public Bodies Bill would not allow the Government to provide these bodies with the powers they need to appoint their own independent external auditors. Likewise this Bill would not enable provision to be made for the arrangements through which the quality of local audit will be maintained. The Government intend to bring forward separate primary legislation, subject to parliamentary time, which deals with the disbanding of the Audit Commission, the transfer of the in-house practice into the private sector and the setting up of the new local audit regime in a comprehensive and integrated way. As such, I hope that the noble Lord will withdraw his amendment.

Public Bodies Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Royall of Blaisdon and Lord Taylor of Holbeach

Tuesday 23rd November 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I am prepared to consider everything. I do not rule anything out, because that is the wrong way to approach discussions. I gave an indication, however, of the implications of different sunsetting. Sunsetting the whole Bill would mean that we would need another Bill in five years, if it was determined that that was necessary. Sunsetting clauses of the Bill is a different approach. I have also made it clear in my response to the amendment that the Government are looking at the interaction of Clause 11 and Schedule 7, and at whether sunsetting might help relieve some of the anxieties, well expressed across the Chamber, about those sections. I hope that I have been pretty open about where we are looking at sunsetting. I assure the noble Baroness that, should she withdraw her amendment, we would enjoy discussing this matter with her and other Members of the House who have expressed an interest.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for his response to my amendments. I think that he has said that he is willing to consider sunsetting the whole Bill as well as specific clauses within it. He is nodding his head, so I take it that that is so. I shall therefore not press my amendments. I look forward to discussions with the Minister and the Bill team. My noble friend Lord Soley suggested that we might try to do this on a whole-House basis. I realise that one does not have representatives from the Cross-Benches, but if we can ensure that someone from those Benches who is particularly concerned about this aspect of the Bill is present, together with somebody from the Liberal Democrats and the Conservatives—because they would perhaps have different views—I shall willingly withdraw my amendment.

Quangos

Debate between Baroness Royall of Blaisdon and Lord Taylor of Holbeach

Tuesday 29th June 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

The noble Lord expresses himself powerfully. As my noble friend mentioned in her supplementary question, the cost of maintaining quangos amounts to £38.4 billion per year, which contrasts with £15.4 billion in 2002. There is a considerable problem to tackle. By dealing with it rigorously, I hope that the Government will show that they are in earnest and have purpose.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I welcome the noble Lord to his new role. I am sure he will agree that new Governments always talk about getting rid of quangos and not creating them. Much has been made of the importance of the Office for Budget Responsibility, which I believe is a quango. Therefore, how many quangos have the coalition Government announced or set up since they took office?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

The Government are determined to ensure that any new bodies set up will satisfy the new tests. I remind the House that those tests are: is the function technical; does it need to be politically impartial; and do the facts need to be analysed transparently?