House of Lords: Working Practices

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon Excerpts

Monday 27th June 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, this has been an excellent and enjoyable debate. Just last week, we debated for two days the role, function, powers and composition of your Lordships' House: what we do and why we do it. Today, we have debated the working practices of this House: how we do it. Both are important and we need to get them both right.

Working practices are challenging, but they are not an impossible subject. In the other place, the issues looked daunting, but thanks to the work led by Dr Tony Wright, the Commons has brought in a significant series of reforms to help make the Chamber work better. What is before us today is broadly the equivalent for this House—a set of reforms to improve our working practices. One of my Back-Bench colleagues, who has long championed such changes, said that they were beyond what could conceivably have been hoped for when the discussions that have led to today's report first began.

Of course, there are reasons for how far and how fast these issues have moved—the decline of trust in politics and politicians, disengagement with traditional politics and perhaps especially with parliamentary politics, the burgeoning numbers of Members in this House—all these and more have led to pressure for change, for reform of the way that Parliament works.

I, too, pay tribute to those whose hard work and application has brought us this far—to the Lord Speaker, to those who chaired and served on the Lord Speaker's discussion groups, to those who served on the Leader’s Group whose report we have before us today, to the Clerk and especially to the excellent chairman, the noble Lord, Lord Goodlad, and to those among us who have pressed for this kind of reform to your Lordships' House for many years.

We have before us separately the proposals from the coalition Government on further large-scale reform of your Lordships' House, which have now been referred to a Joint Committee for scrutiny. We do not know what that Joint Committee will produce but we believe that whatever happens to the Government’s wider proposals we should proceed with the broad programme of reform set out in the report before us today from the Leader’s Group.

We on these Benches welcome the report from the Leader’s Group. It is a very good report and makes sensible and constructive proposals that offer a clear way forward for this House. I am delighted that there has been such a positive response this evening, but clearly not all Members of your Lordships' House are as enthusiastic about or as comfortable with some of the reforms proposed. Indeed, on these Benches, we do not necessarily agree as individuals with each and every recommendation contained in the report. I was of course pleased to hear that the ears and door of the Leader were open. This should, as one noble Lord said, be a process, not an event.

So many proposals have been raised today, including the new one from the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, and my noble friend Lord Parekh in relation to responses which come from the Government after a debate. I very much welcome that specific proposal. The Leader of the House is right to take the report forward through the range of means and mechanisms available to us including both through the Procedure Committee and the Liaison Committee and he is also right that this should be done promptly.

I would like to touch on a few of the recommendations which seem to me to be of especial merit. There are many, of course—for example, the role of the Lord Speaker in relation to the role currently carried out by the Leader of the House or the recommendations on delegated legislation or the recommendations on Private Notice Questions. I would like to mention three issues in particular, all of which have been well discussed this evening already.

First, I agree with all noble Lords who believe that the proposal for a legislative standards committee is a very welcome development. Regardless of whichever party is in power, all too often in this House and in the other place we see legislation being brought before us which, at times, is barely finished and requires extensive amendments, not by the Opposition but by Government, who have on occasion introduced legislation before it is in fact ready to be introduced. Those who have been in government know why and how this happens. The pressure of events sometimes makes it inevitable but it happens too often for what should be a proper and considered legislative process.

The establishment of a legislative standards committee, as recommended by this report, in setting agreed criteria against which government legislation would be measured in terms of technical and procedural compliance rather than policy, would be a considerable step forward for the standards of government legislation, for the legislative process itself and for public regard of the work that we, as politicians, do. We believe that the House should move as quickly as possible to establish such a committee and we commend the recommendation to the House. While agreement on the committee with the other place would of course be preferable, in relation to Bills starting in this House we believe there is a strong case for this House proceeding with this reform alone if necessary, as the report proposes. Allied to that, we very much welcome the group’s recommendations for extending pre-legislative and post-legislative scrutiny, but I do so with one reservation, to which I will return.

Secondly, we very much welcome the proposal for new sessional committees. My noble friend Lord Adonis has argued cogently that the House of Lords’ committee structure does not provide for proper scrutiny of whole areas of government policy and that new committees should be set up to fill this gap, especially dealing with a range of cross-cutting issues on areas such as infrastructure, welfare, or public services. We have had that argument put very strongly this evening. We are glad that the Goodlad group has taken up this idea and is recommending its adoption in the form of two new sessional committees. We believe that the House should again move as quickly as possible to establish these committees to harness the knowledge, experience and ability of Members from all sides of the House to scrutinise what otherwise can very often be overlooked areas of government activity.

The report does not specifically recommend a review of our current system of committees, though my reading of the report suggests to me that the group thinks it has done so. However, the intention of the Leader’s Group is clear from the report and we would strongly support such a review. At the same time, I hope that the Liaison Committee will look at innovative ways of working to ensure that the recommendations for the various new committees can be met.

Thirdly, the Leader’s Group report makes a strong case for a Back-Bench business committee to take on the responsibility for debating days currently assigned to non-party Back-Bench business—that is, the one Thursday each month currently allocated to balloted debates. I hear what noble Lords have said but I believe that making the case for what it calls “intelligent selection”, the Leader’s Group points to the establishment in the other place of such a committee. This has been a successful innovation in the other place and we on these Benches believe it would prove equally successful in your Lordships’ House.

Good though it is, the Goodlad report does not dispose of all the issues about reform of our working practices and some difficult issues still remain. For example, many Members on my Benches who are not in their places this evening have drawn my colleagues’ attention to the Leader’s Group’s proposals for the increased use of Grand Committee and in particular to recommendation 20, as detailed in paragraph 122 of the report. That proposes that all government Bills introduced in the Commons should be considered in Grand Committee, apart from Bills in three specified categories: major constitutional Bills, emergency legislation and what is termed “other exceptionally controversial Bills”. We have concerns about what constitutes such concepts and how they would be defined and deployed. Given that much government legislation by any political party in office is often inherently controversial, any threshold of controversy would have to be sufficiently high so as to ensure that this Chamber was able to consider such legislation.

We also have concerns about proposals on the timing of Grand Committee sessions, especially among Members across the House who work outside it, as they are entitled to do. As has been pointed out this evening, there would be conflicts with committee work. One suggestion might be for Grand Committee sessions to be in the evenings rather than the mornings. While we value both the opportunity to take legislation to Grand Committee and the work done there, we believe that fuller and further consideration needs to be given to this proposal and to the exceptions—and definitions of the exceptions—that are proposed. We believe that the issues involved need to be considered with care before any move is made in this area. Indeed, if there were more Committees taken in Grand Committee, consideration should perhaps also be given to more amendments at Third Reading.

I mentioned earlier our approval for increased pre-legislative and post-legislative scrutiny. The noble Lord, Lord Jenkin of Roding, mentioned the committee which considered the draft Bill on human fertilisation and embryology. I did not sit on that Committee but, as one of the Ministers who steered the Bill through this House, I benefited enormously from the pre-legislative scrutiny process. Yet I also have a reservation. The recommendation that all Bills embodying important changes of policy, particularly constitutional legislation, should be the subject of pre-legislative scrutiny is a good one and we support it. I acknowledge that the coalition Government have introduced pre-legislative scrutiny for many Bills, but still not enough—and not for the important constitutional legislation that we have had before us. The way that this Government have introduced important constitutional legislation has been, to use as neutral as possible a word, deficient in many ways. Any process which would help to prevent any repetition is indeed to be welcomed.

There is a question about the mandate that this coalition has for many of the actions it has taken, but we recognise that a Government who have been voted in by the electorate want to get on and put into place legislation that they believe people have voted for. We did that in 1997 with our own programme of constitutional reform so, while we wish to have pre-legislative scrutiny for each and every Bill, we understand the reservation that the proposal on this issue from the Leader's Group might place restrictions on a new Government that might not sit appropriately with the swift discharge of their electoral mandate. Again, this proposal perhaps needs fuller and further consideration on that point. I also wonder whether the noble Lord might consider the current problem of pre-legislative implementation in which enormous changes are introduced, for example to the health service or in abolishing RDAs, before legislation has completed its parliamentary process.

On current working practices, we particularly welcome the report’s reaffirming not just that there should be changes for the future but that some of the House’s current practices should be fully reinstated and properly adhered to. In particular, it stressed that the minimum intervals between stages of a Bill should be properly respected, that the House should have reasonable time to consider government business and that the firm convention that the House rises by 10 pm should be respected.

This is a good programme for reform. It needs working through and some of it needs further and fuller consideration but it is a very good way forward. We must all now work to try to ensure as high a degree of consensus as possible on the direction in which this report points. Our principal focus should be on giving full consideration through the appropriate committees to all the issues involved in working towards implementation as soon as possible. We on these Benches look forward to working to make that happen.

House of Lords: Reform

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon Excerpts

Tuesday 21st June 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, this is an important occasion. It is far from the first time that this House has considered its own future, but it is the first time that it has considered a substantive piece of legislation on that subject—what used to be known as second-stage reform. What a pity that, as a substantive piece of legislation, the draft Bill in front of us is such a bad one.

Getting this House right is important, important to us all here as Members of your Lordships’ House but important too to our legislative process, our Parliament, our politics and our constitution. At the same time we need to remember that reshaping our constitution, though undeniably important, does not rank high in the priorities of what the public want us as politicians to do. The public’s concerns need to remain our concerns, such as jobs and the economy, health and education. Many of the Government’s Bills that this House either is scrutinising now or will have before it soon concern these areas. Whatever else the outcome of the alternative vote referendum last month showed, it showed that the public have little interest in the kind of constitutional reform proposed. In our debate on these issues over the next two days and beyond, we would all do well to keep that important calibration in mind.

This House must not be obsessed with itself. The House of Lords needs to be about much more than House of Lords reform. This House is sometimes castigated as resistant to reform and its Members are characterised as roadblocks to reform, but I do not believe that that is true. This House has in fact seen real, repeated reform, in 1911 with the removal of the fiscal powers and the shifting of its right of veto to a right of delay; in 1949 with further changes to its delaying powers; in 1958 with the introduction of life peerages; in 1963 with changes to peerage succession; in 1999 with the removal of the majority of hereditary Peers; and in 2004 with the separation of powers between the legislature and the judiciary, with the ending of the Lords as the final court of appeal and the establishment of the new Supreme Court—evolutionary change over a long period of time, but regular repeated reform.

For some, that rate of reform is too slow. They want further and faster reform. I understand that, but reform is difficult and takes time. My party has long been committed to reform. In our 1945 manifesto, for example, when a great reforming Labour Government were swept to power by a popular vote, we said,

“we give clear notice that we will not tolerate obstruction of the people’s will by the House of Lords”.

In 1964, when we were again returned to power, our manifesto said,

“we shall not permit effective action to be frustrated by the hereditary and non-elective Conservative majority in the House of Lords”.

In 1997 our manifesto said:

“The House of Lords must be reformed”,

and proposed both an initial self-contained reform to remove the right of hereditary Peers to sit and vote and a Joint Committee of both Houses of Parliament to propose further reform. In 2010, we proposed further democratic reform to create a fully elected second Chamber, to be achieved in stages with the promise to put such proposals to the people in a referendum. That was the case I argued as a member of the committee chaired by the Deputy Prime Minister which, following the outcome of the general election last year and the formation of the coalition Government, was charged with bringing forward legislation on further reform of your Lordships’ House.

We believe that it was right to take part in that process, but I want to make it absolutely clear that what we have before us today—the latest attempt at reform in the shape of the Government’s draft Bill and White Paper—is not a product of that process. The Leader of the House was right to issue a correction to his Statement in the Chamber recently that the Clegg committee met as many as nine times; it did not—in fact, it met seven times. Not only did the last meeting of the committee take place six months before the White Paper and Bill were finally produced, at no point did the Clegg committee ever see anything other than policy papers. It saw no White Paper, it approved no White Paper. It saw no draft Bill, it approved no draft Bill. The draft Bill and the White Paper are not a product of that committee. It is a stand-alone Bill—a coalition Bill. Indeed, given the lack of support for the Bill on the Conservative Benches in both Houses, it is a Liberal Democrat Bill.

We as a Labour Party are committed to reform of this House; that is a long-standing policy. However, following our general election defeat and the election of a new leader of our party, we are undertaking a fundamental review of all aspects of policy. Labour members and supporters are entirely able, if they so wish, to argue for a review of our party’s support for an elected House. That is their right and their opportunity. Within the present policy position there are certainly differences of opinion on the Benches behind me. Many observers will expect my Benches to be divided on the issue, as are the two parts of the coalition on the Benches opposite. Indeed, many Labour Peers—almost certainly a clear majority—are opposed to direct elections of this House. I acknowledge and accept that. It is not my personal opinion, I am in favour of election and I have voted that way, but I recognise that many of my colleagues believe that further fundamental reform of your Lordships' House, and especially the introduction of direct elections, would damage the House, politics and the constitution. These are genuinely, often passionately, held views. They are not my views, but like my party, I respect them and those who hold them.

We on these Benches have our differences but the main issue on which these Benches are completely united is in our belief and judgment that this is a bad Bill. That is the fundamental difference between these Benches and the Benches opposite, because the Benches opposite are fundamentally divided. The Leader of the House argues the Government’s case for reform. He has done so in his speech today; he did so when publishing the Bill; and he has done so in media interviews given since its publication, though in some, such as last weekend, he seemed to give slightly different messages. However, the words “Conservative” and “Lords reform” do not sit easily in the same sentence. It is transparently clear that in setting out the case for reform the Leader of the House does not have the support of the overwhelming majority of Conservative Peers and Conservative MPs, or perhaps of Conservative Party members and Conservative supporters.

The only reason the Conservatives are able to pay lip service to the notion of reform is because essentially they do not believe that Lords reform and, indeed, the Bill before us today will actually happen, particularly in the light of the outcome of the AV referendum. The Conservative position is fundamentally divided from that of their coalition partner. The Liberal Democrats, and the Liberals before them, have long supported further fundamental reform of this House—indeed, a fully elected House. We all thought that we understood that. We all thought we knew that that was their position but now we find, following the survey by the Times newspaper, that that is not the case. Indeed, we find that, according to the survey, far from unanimously supporting a fully elected House—their party’s policy—Liberal Democrat Peers are split right down the middle over whether this House should be elected at all. Further, we find that the Leader of the Liberal Democrat Party—the Deputy Prime Minister—is not supporting his own party’s policy either. In putting forward this draft Bill, the Deputy Prime Minister is not arguing in favour of a 100 per cent elected House but an 80 per cent elected House, as set out in the draft Bill.

For those of us not in the Liberal Democrat Party, these are deep and murky waters—waters so impenetrably deep and murky that the rest of us may not, sadly, be equipped to comprehend them fully, or indeed at all. No doubt, if you happen to be a member of the Liberal Democrat Party, all is clear to you. The rest of us await elucidation with interest. I suspect that the debate—

[Lord Phillips of Sudbury]

I thank the noble Baroness for giving way, but I cannot resist asking her, what are the differences between the splits on her Benches and the splits on these Benches?

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I have explained that I fully accept that there are splits behind me, and everyone knows that. We have been totally open about that, but we are united in our view that this is a bad Bill. That is where the difference between my Benches and the noble Lord’s Benches comes.

The debate will also demonstrate that the clear and united view on these Benches is, as I have said, that this is a bad Bill accompanied by an inadequate White Paper. Even for a Government who are making it their specialist subject to bring forward bad Bills, this is a very bad Bill. It is a bad Bill because it is badly done and because it is not up to the task that it is addressing. The Government can, for example, assert to their hearts’ content, as they do in Clause 2, that nothing in the Bill,

“affects the primacy of the House of Commons”,

as the Leader of the House explained earlier. Ministers can, if they wish, assert that the moon is made of green cheese. They can even put such an assertion in the Bill, should they so choose, but however eloquent such an assertion is, and however well drafted such a provision is, it makes not a jot of difference in fact, because the changes to the House as it is currently constituted, and its replacement by an elected senate, will automatically affect the primacy of the House of Commons. The fact that needs to be faced is that further reform of your Lordships' House is not so much about the House of Lords but the House of Commons. The real impact of Lords reform is not in this place, but in the other place. With the publication of the draft Bill and the White Paper, this Government have put the primacy of the House of Commons into play.

There will be many other areas on which to focus. Difficult issues have not been addressed to date. They have not been considered or resolved. This is a bad Bill because it does not answer the key questions on the issue. What is the role of the House of Lords? What should be the role of the second Chamber? What powers should a reformed House of Lords have? What powers do the Government want a reformed House of Lords to have? What will be the conventions that govern relations between the two Chambers? What happens to the current conventions that govern the relationship between the two Chambers? Should that relationship be codified? These and others are big questions that will have to be properly addressed, properly considered and properly resolved before any Bill to reform fundamentally your Lordships’ House is enacted by Parliament. These are questions with which constitutional reformers have grappled for years. They are questions that successive Governments have considered for years. They are questions that were considered in depth by the Joint Committee on Conventions, chaired by my noble friend Lord Cunningham of Felling—the conclusions of which included that the conventions would need to be considered again if substantive proposals on composition were brought forward, as they have been in this draft Bill, and approved by all parties in both Houses.

However, the Bill ducks those questions because, to Liberal Democrats, such questions and those who raise them are roadblocks to reform. They believe that those who pose such questions are just anti-reformers slipping into constitutionalist disguise. However, we on these Benches do not accept that. These are real questions and genuine constitutional problems. We certainly wrestled with them when we were in Government and wanted to proceed with Lords reform. Other Administrations have done the same. What is simply not adequate or sufficient is to do what this Bill tries to do—just to put the questions aside as though they do not matter. They do matter and they—

[Lord Ashdown of Norton-sub-Hamdon]

I have listened very carefully to the noble Baroness, but, with great respect to her, it seems to me that her entire speech is predicated on the fact that she has been presented with a Bill. She is not being presented with a Bill. She is being presented with a White Paper.

[Lord Ashdown of Norton-sub-Hamdon]

I am sure that the noble Baroness understands the difference between the two.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, if the noble Lord were to read the White Paper again and reconsider it, he would find that within it there is a draft Bill. It is the draft Bill about which I am addressing my remarks.

We on my Benches give the House warning that when the draft Bill has been finalised, if it ever comes before this House, it will be properly scrutinised. Some Members of the House were disquieted by the way that we, as an Opposition, scrutinised the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill earlier this year. We may not necessarily scrutinise the Bill in the same way, but the Government need to know that if it comes before the House, we will scrutinise it with the same focus and intensity. However, we are a long way from there. First, we have the Joint Committee of both Houses. Joint Committees of both Houses of Parliament are excellent instruments. The Joint Committee is the proper committee to address all the difficult issues that require to be debated about further reform of your Lordships' House.

The Joint Committee, whose establishment we welcome, will, I am sure, do a first-rate job, and we thank all those who have volunteered to serve on it. We on these Benches thank in particular our Members from this House on the committee: the noble Lord, Lord Richard, a former Leader of the House, who is taking on the particularly onerous role of chairing the committee, two former Ministers and Deputy Leaders of the House, the noble Baroness, Lady Symons of Vernham Dean, and the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, and a former Minister, the noble Baroness, Lady Andrews. All are widely respected not just on these Benches but throughout the House.

Their task is a challenging, even a daunting one, as is the task before all members of the committee from both Houses. The scale of that task has been made clear by the responses to the publication of the draft Bill and White Paper: almost all of them sceptical or negative. I cite only two responses. The House of Lords specialist, Donald Shell, the University of Bristol politics academic whose book, The House of Lords, is the acknowledged primary guide to the House, argues that some hard thinking needs to take place. He asks a key question of the Bill: do MPs really want a Lords that can challenge the Commons? A key question indeed, although one that the Bill seems wholly to shrink. I might quote Martin Kettle; on the other hand, I might cite Peter Oborne in the Telegraph, who described the Bill as.

“a recipe for chaos, one that will see British government come to resemble the annual shambles of the Lib Dem conference”.

Mr Oborne concludes that,

“exactly 100 years ago, Lords reform helped wreck HH Asquith’s Liberal ascendancy. History may be about to repeat itself”.

Those are grim warnings for the coalition and for Parliament. It will take all the skill of those serving on the Joint Committee to navigate their way through those rocks and shoals.

It may be that if, as we on these Benches expect, the Joint Committee addresses itself properly to the complexities and difficulties which abound around the issue of further reform of your Lordships' House, its work may take time. The Leader of the House has already acknowledged in this Chamber that if the Joint Committee needs more time to conclude its work than by the end of next February, more time it will get. We welcome that commitment.

It may well also be that if the complexities and difficulties with which the Joint Committee will be wrestling prove as intractable as they have been for the past 100 years, the part-Liberal Democrat coalition Government may find greater attraction in the proposals put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Steel of Aikwood, a distinguished former leader of the Liberal Democrats, in the Bill he has before the House. Members of the House will recall that we on these Benches had included the bulk of the Steel Bill recommendations in our Constitutional Reform and Governance Bill before the election, but they were struck out in the wash-up by one of the parties now on the government Benches.

When the Bill eventually appears in the House, there will be a clear position from these Benches. As I said, we have many different opinions on these Benches about Lords reform. Many of my Members are strongly opposed to a directly elected second Chamber, but we are united in seeing the Bill—and it is a draft Bill—as a bad Bill. That is not a unity in papering over the cracks, as the coalition parties on the Benches opposite will no doubt seek to do, but a unity of resolve to ensure that the issues involved in further reform of this place are properly considered. It is a resolve to ensure that any Bill that comes to this House is properly scrutinised and a resolve to ensure that, if this House is to be reformed, it will be reformed by good and proper legislation, not by a Bill as bad as the one before us today.

This House, this Parliament, our politics and our constitution merit more than that. Reform should mean proper reform. That in turn means a better Bill, a good Bill. We, as an Opposition, will work to ensure that this House, our politics and our constitution get the legislation that they deserve.

House of Lords: Reform

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon Excerpts

Thursday 9th June 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, this is where we get into a discussion about semantics. The Government are mad keen on reform. That is why they published their Bill. My noble friend Lord Steel’s Bill would create a wholly appointed House. I remind the House that no major political party stood at the last election in favour of those plans. All political parties stood for a wholly, or largely, elected House.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, the next part of the “mad keen” process will be consideration of the draft Bill by the Joint Committee. Can the noble Lord the Leader say whether all proceedings of that committee will be in public and whether all the papers pertaining to that committee will be made available to the public?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I understand that it is normal for these sorts of Joint Committees to hear evidence and deliberate in public. I suppose that it is up to the committee exactly what rules it decides on. No doubt those who sit on it and whoever chairs it will take into account this debate and, if representations are made, I am sure that they will wish to be as open as possible.

His Royal Highness the Duke of Edinburgh

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon Excerpts

Wednesday 8th June 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, it is a very great privilege for me to have the honour to associate the Opposition Benches and myself with the tribute that the Leader of the House has paid to His Royal Highness the Duke of Edinburgh on the occasion of his forthcoming 90th birthday. The country holds Her Majesty the Queen in very high esteem and regard, all the more so since the royal wedding in April and the success of the extraordinary visit by the Queen to Ireland last month. A fundamental part of that esteem is the role played by His Royal Highness as the Queen’s consort—indeed, the longest serving royal consort in British history. In doing so he has virtually defined the role, at least since it was carried out for Queen Victoria by Prince Albert.

In a BBC documentary for his 90th birthday, to be broadcast tomorrow night, I understand that the Duke says of his role:

“It has all been trial and error”,

but as his son, the Duke of Wessex, says in the programme:

“That kind of view is typical of him. He is very modest about himself”.

While the Duke of Edinburgh may indeed be modest, his achievements are not. For many people all over the world, the words “Duke of Edinburgh” are inextricably linked with the award scheme which carries his name. Since 1956 when the scheme to help the development of young people began, a staggering 7 million young people have taken part in it across 132 countries—an astonishing achievement.

As he approaches his 90th birthday on Friday, we give heartfelt thanks for all that His Royal Highness the Duke of Edinburgh has done for Her Majesty the Queen, for his service to this country, including his own fine naval record of service, for all the causes which have benefited from being associated with him and especially for the many millions of people who have participated in the Duke of Edinburgh’s Award programme and whose lives have, as a result, been immeasurably altered and improved and whose volunteering has, in turn, altered and improved the lives of so many others.

The Motion before the House today speaks rightly of the outstanding service to the nation given by His Royal Highness in supporting the Queen, and his own deep contribution to our national life. Those are exactly the right sentiments and exactly what we on these Benches wish to support.

Leader’s Group on Working Practices

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon Excerpts

Tuesday 7th June 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I am aware of that and that is the point of the proposal that I laid out: namely, that the House will be able to take a view on individual recommendations, subject to the reports that emanate from the committees of this House.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I know that following the Question from the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, many Members of this House are anxious that some of the proposals at least should be implemented in the near future. May I therefore suggest to the noble Lord the Leader that perhaps the meetings of the relevant committees could be arranged for July in order that the House may take a view at the earliest opportunity? Perhaps some elements of the report could be implemented in September.

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, that, of course, will be a decision for the Chairman of Committees, but no doubt he will be listening to this exchange and will wish to take that into regard while he decides on the dates of the meetings of the relevant committees.

House of Lords: Facilities

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon Excerpts

Wednesday 25th May 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, there will be an opportunity for noble Lords to retire permanently from the House, but I disagree with one aspect of what my noble friend said. There should always be room to speak for Peers who may not come very often but who, when they come, are worth listening to, which is not always the case with some noble Lords who speak very regularly.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, the recommendations of the report by the noble Lord, Lord Goodlad, and his group will clearly have real implications for the effectiveness and efficacy of this House. Will the noble Lord tell us when he expects the recommendations to be implemented—not just debated, but implemented?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, as the noble Baroness knows, we will have a debate very soon. When we have organised a date we shall let the House know. It is of course entirely up to the House and its committees to make recommendations on implementation, but I am hopeful that some recommendations can be put into effect very speedily.

House of Lords: Membership

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon Excerpts

Tuesday 24th May 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

I was unaware of any constitutional gobbledegook during the course of this Question. It is because my noble friend Lord Steel’s propositions on permanent retirement from this House are so sensible that the Procedure Committee has agreed a report which I hope will be agreed by the House.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I am sure that many of my noble friends would welcome the noble Lord’s announcement that the Government have no intention to increase the number of Peers, thus breaking another promise in the coalition agreement, but one which we welcome wholeheartedly. Does the Leader of the House agree that, while neither the Conservative Party nor the Liberal Democrats have a majority in this House, as the coalition Benches they have a political majority, which has fundamentally changed the workings of this House since the advent of the coalition?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, there is no intention at present to increase the size of the House of Lords, but that—for the avoidance of doubt—is not a moratorium. As for the political majority, it is true that the coalition has more members than the Labour Party, but that is not the whole of the House of Lords. The Cross-Benchers play a substantial and serious-minded role in this House—one the Labour Party wishes to abolish from the future House. I am, on the other hand, entirely in favour of the Cross Benches remaining an important and integral part of a reformed second Chamber.

House of Lords Reform Bill

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon Excerpts

Tuesday 17th May 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord the Leader of the House for repeating the Statement made in the other place by the Deputy Prime Minister. As I understand it, although the Deputy Prime Minister is the prime mover behind the proposals in front of your Lordships' House today, he apparently feels the need to distance himself from them. Indeed, he is passing the torch of toxicity to the Leader of this House, in which case I offer my commiserations to the noble Lord.

I suspect that for many Members of your Lordships' House these proposals have a ring of familiarity about them. That is partly because the Government started leaking them in detail pretty early on. We have seen repeated leaks in recent weeks, culminating in a virtually line-by-line account in last week's Guardian of such detail that the Leader of the House was forced to disavow in this House yesterday, in advance of today's publication, one of the whizz-bang new ideas—that Peers could be removed from this House by lottery.

The Times tells us this morning that the Deputy Prime Minister has been busy over the past few days watering down his own proposals, while other media outlets report that the Deputy Prime Minister is to argue today for a 100 per cent elected House of Lords, so in effect, at the very moment he is promoting his new policy, he is taking the opportunity to argue against it. While this juvenile japery is entirely proper for party political conferences, fundamental reform of the constitution of this country, the Parliament of this country and the politics of this country is simply too important to be left to this clowning about.

It is, by the way, a discourtesy to this House for proposals for further reform of your Lordships' House to have been given to any and every journalist who asked to be told about them before they have been placed before this House itself. However, these proposals are not only familiar because they have been so comprehensively leaked by the coalition. They are familiar because most aspects of the history, argument and practice of reform of your Lordships' House are familiar; few areas of the argument over reform have not been exceptionally well trodden over the past 100 years. That is not to say that the issues involved in further reform of this House are resolved. They are certainly not resolved by the proposals that have been published today, and they were certainly not resolved by the group established by the Deputy Prime Minister to consider these issues. I took part in that group, along with opposition colleagues from the other place. The purpose of the group was to produce a draft Bill, and I have to tell the House today that it did not do so. Indeed, I can inform the House that the group has not met since November—six months ago.

I saw the Bill for the first time when I came into the Chamber this afternoon. Make no mistake, this is a government Bill. Indeed, the glum faces on the Conservative Benches suggest that this is not even a coalition Bill. This is a Liberal Democrat Bill—if it is a Bill at all. We were promised a Bill; we were in fact promised a draft Motion “by December 2010”, according to the coalition agreement. A little while ago that started to be transformed into a Bill and into a White Paper. Now what we have before us today is a White Paper—a very green White Paper, at that, with green ink on the cover—at the back of which is tucked a little draft example of what legislation could look like, with the real legislation to come later.

What a difference a year makes. You start off roaring like a mountain lion about the greatest programme of constitutional change since the Great Reform Act 1832, and 12 months later you bring forward the little mouse that the Deputy Prime Minister has published today. Constitutional reform is indeed a difficult subject, and reform of your Lordships’ House is one of the most difficult aspects of all. It can be done, it must be done, but it must be done carefully, and it must be done by consensus, bringing as many people along with it as possible.

I pay tribute to perhaps the most significant reform of your Lordships’ House achieved over the last century—the introduction of life Peers, which transformed this House from a failing, moribund institution to something that, as the Government felt last week over the Police Bill, can have a real impact on the Government of the day. That reform, of course, was brought by a Conservative Government, and I pay tribute to the clear and apparent reforming zeal of the Conservative Benches in both this House and the other place for further House of Lords reform. Indeed, let me quote the noble Earl, Lord Ferrers, who, as well as having a good week with his book serialisation, was quoted in the Times this morning as follows:

“They can have a three-line whip but we don’t have to go along with it. If they tell us we have got to vote for this elected Lords, the majority of Tory peers would say we’re not going to. People might start causing trouble on other Bills. The Lib Dems made us have the AV referendum and got a complete drubbing; now they’re going to start wrecking the House of Lords. It’s mad”.

With support like that on the government Benches, the Leader of the House is clearly going to have the easiest of times getting this legislation through this Chamber. It will be a complete breeze. The real roadblock to reform of this place will be the Deputy Prime Minister’s coalition partners on the Benches opposite. The Conservative Party was the only party at the last election not to commit to a fully elected House of Lords in its manifesto. I know that the Leader of the House is himself utterly committed to Lords reform; 100 per cent committed. Perhaps today he is 80 per cent committed—I am not too sure. I do not for a single second believe that for him and Lords reform, his favourite part of the garden is the long grass. I wonder whether the Leader can confirm that there will not only be a debate in this House on these proposals, but that sufficient time will be provided for that debate—two days, perhaps even three, because these are serious matters. My own experience of the group led by the Deputy Prime Minister was that there was a whole range of issues that were so difficult that not only was agreement difficult but there was no serious or substantive discussion on some of the most difficult issues. So there was no detailed discussion in the group about the powers of this House in relation to the other place. Can the Leader, therefore, indicate what powers the Government actually want a reformed House of Lords to have?

We on these Benches welcome the proposal to establish a Joint Committee of both Houses to consider these issues in detail. The Government must avoid the rushed and piecemeal approach that has characterised their constitutional reform agenda so far. It is essential in considering these proposals that proper agreement is reached on the relationship between the two Houses and on the powers and privileges of each House. The Joint Committee will be essential for that. I have said many times that I thought that the group chaired by the Deputy Prime Minister should have included a representative of the Cross Benches. I commend the Government for their proposal that the Joint Committee should include representatives of both the Cross Benches and the Bishops’ Benches when it is established.

Can the Leader confirm that the Joint Committee will include as part of its remit the provisions of the previous Joint Committee on Conventions, chaired by my noble friend Lord Cunningham of Felling, and that in the light of the publication of these proposals the conventions will indeed have to be looked at again? Do the Government believe that the relationship between the two Houses, as set out in the conventions, and the powers and functions of both, should be codified? In terms of timing, can the Leader confirm that it would be inappropriate constitutionally for the Executive to suggest any limit on the time that a Joint Committee of both Houses of Parliament should take in considering these views? Can the noble Lord confirm that he wants these reforms to be on the statute book by the next election? Will he confirm whether the Government would use the Parliament Act in relation to these proposals?

Constitutional reform is difficult to get right. I believe that the last Labour Government got a lot of it right with a new Parliament for Scotland, a new Assembly for Wales and devolution for Northern Ireland. I am proud to proclaim our record on reform of your Lordships’ House—the removal of the majority of hereditary Peers, an elected Speaker, the separation of powers with the creation of a new Supreme Court in place of the Appellate Committee here, and the creation of independent Peers through the independent House of Lords Appointments Commission.

In terms of the Government’s Statement today, the country two weeks ago comprehensively rejected the AV system. Is the Leader seriously suggesting that his Government should impose a system of PR for the second Chamber without consulting the electorate? If indeed no Peers would be forced to leave the Chamber until 2025, what does he predict the maximum size of the second Chamber to be in the interim, and what will be the financial cost? Will the Government continue to appoint large numbers of new Peers to this House in line with the provisions in the coalition agreement? What do the Government believe is the role of Bishops in a reformed second Chamber?

These and similar questions are difficult and complex issues that have vexed the minds of many constitutional reformers over the past 100 years. In that light, I look forward to the response from the Leader. At a time of austerity and cuts, constitutional reform is understandably not an issue on most people's minds. However, constitutional reform is about how power is exercised in modern Britain, so it is vital that we get it right.

The Deputy Prime Minister declares himself in his Statement, as repeated by the Leader of this House, to be “ready to listen” and “prepared to adapt”, but to be,

“determined, in the end, to act”.

Determination to act is a very fine thing, but a determination to get it right is finer still. We on these Benches are committed to the reform of your Lordships’ House, but we do not believe in reform for reform’s sake. We want the right reform, and we want to get that reform right. That is why we believe, for example, in putting the substantial reform of this House to the people in a referendum—not today, not now, but when we have real reform before us; not today’s damp squib, not today’s little mouse, but reform, like Labour’s constitutional reforms since 1997, that improves the politics of this country, improves the governance of this country, and improves what we, as politicians, are here to do.

Parliament: Elected House of Lords

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon Excerpts

Monday 16th May 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I join the noble Lord and, I expect, many others in eagerly anticipating the announcement that will be made shortly by my right honourable friend the Deputy Prime Minister. With regard to understanding the profound implications of any change that might take place, again I agree with the noble Lord: they would be profound if this House became a wholly elected body, as I think is well understood by those who propose such a change. We would decide the issue of a free vote when we came to a final conclusion about what would appear in a Bill, if any, and when it would be presented to both Houses of Parliament.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I remind the Leader of the House of the conclusion of the Cunningham committee that, should any firm proposals come forward to change the composition of the Lords, the conventions between the two Houses would have to be examined again. Can the noble Lord assure me that if, as we understand will be the case, a Joint Committee is set up, it will be charged with looking at the conventions between the two Houses?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, it is proposed that there should be a Joint Committee of both Houses—an authoritative body of senior parliamentarians who would meet and examine the White Paper and the draft Bill. They could look at any aspects of them, which might include the conclusions of the Cunningham committee. My own view is that in the long term, if the composition of this House were to change, the conventions might change between this House and another place but there is no reason why they should. That will be up to decisions taken by the Members of either House.

Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon Excerpts

Wednesday 11th May 2011 Lords Chamber

[The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)]

Before my noble friend Lady Hamwee continues speaking to her amendment, perhaps I may explain that there has been a short Adjournment of the Committee’s proceedings so that discussion could take place as to whether we should continue. The Government’s position is utterly straightforward. Earlier today, a defeat took place. It is not the first time that a defeat has taken place on a government Bill. There is no reason why we should not continue; in fact, it is the Government’s wish that we should. I understand that some noble Lords who have put down amendments would prefer not to continue. It is entirely their right—and we would not complain—not to move their amendments this evening, but good order and precedent should continue and we should carry on with the Committee stage. I hope that my noble friend Lady Hamwee can continue with her amendment.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

I accept what the Leader has said. However, the advice given to us earlier by the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, to perhaps take time to reflect on where we are on the Bill and the implications of today’s vote for the remaining amendments, was cogent and very sensible. When the House was adjourned a brief 12 minutes ago, it was agreed that it would be adjourned in order for discussions to take place. I point out to the Chief Whip that that is what was said. No discussions have taken place with the Opposition. I do not complain; I merely point that out as a matter for the record. I am perfectly happy to continue as the noble Lord desires, but I do not think that it is a sensible way forward. It would be far more appropriate for us to take time to reflect. However, the noble Lord is the Leader of the House and it is for him to decide.

[Lord Soley]

I am not very confident of my knowledge of the procedures when we get into a situation like this. I simply say to the Government—and I recognise that I probably would not be their first choice as a political adviser—that there are aspects of the Bill which we could deal with very effectively and get through; for example, on drugs and alcohol. I am at a loss to understand why the Government do not proceed with that, leaving aside the policing bit for the moment while they decide a policy. The provisions on drugs and alcohol will get a lot of support. The Government could be well advised, politically, to split off the policing aspect so that they can take their time on it, and they would get a very good Bill on drugs and alcohol which I think we would all welcome.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Elystan-Morgan]

My Lords—

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, could I seek one point of information? Given that, as was suggested by one of my noble friends earlier, we had a target of reaching the group starting with Amendment 15, if noble Lords did not wish to move their amendments in the groups preceding that group, would the Leader agree that we should finish at Amendment 15 for the sake of those people who are not present this evening and who did not expect to have their amendments debated this evening? Would the House then adjourn?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, the target is a sort of rough target in order to help the House. From other discussions that have taken place, I understand that the Opposition are fully briefed up to Amendment 18, but I do not know whether that is true. I would rather dispose of Amendment 13, which is the amendment that we are on, and see where we get to. It is nearly 20 minutes to 10.