Public Bodies Bill [HL]

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon Excerpts

Wednesday 9th March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Rowlands]

My Lords, I had tabled two amendments in this group, Amendment 131, to leave out the Advisory Council on Public Records, and Amendment 161, to leave out the Public Records Office. While I, like everyone else, welcome immensely the fact that Clause 11 and Schedule 7 have gone, I am dying to know what would have happened to these two bodies had the schedule remained.

What would have happened, for example, to the Advisory Council on Public Records? I had the pleasure of serving on this council for a number of years; I thought we were rather a useful body. Most Lord Chancellors seemed to think we were helpful, giving independent advice on whether sensitive records should be released or not. We were a kind of independent buffer, and assisted the Lord Chancellor in that respect. I hope this does not sound boastful but we were quite a well qualified group on the council, and very cheap. It was chaired by the Master of the Rolls, and the last time I saw it was costing about £2,500 a year in expenses to run.

I would be fascinated to know what the intention of including the Advisory Council on Public Records in Schedule 7 was. What was the alternative? I would love to know whether former Lord Chancellors thought a change was necessary.

On a much larger count, what were the Government going to do about the Public Records Office, which was included in this Bill? At various times in my life I have almost become a resident of the Public Records Office and an ex officio member. I have admired and benefited enormously from the fantastic research facilities at Kew and the quality and the dedication of the staff there.

I am happy to tell you that, thankfully, these bodies are now outside the scope of the Bill, but can the Minister tell us what they would have done with them had they left Schedule 7 in? I would very much welcome my curiosity being satisfied in this respect.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

I, too, am delighted that the Minister has added his name to the Clause 11 and Schedule 7 stand part debate, and pay tribute to him for listening so attentively to everyone around the Chamber.

I feel sure that I know exactly how it will have happened. He will have been in the Cabinet Office, or wherever, and the Secretary of State will be saying, “Don’t be silly. Of course you can get it through the Lords”. He will be saying, “No, I’m listening. I can't. It’s too difficult”. Eventually, the noble Lord’s arguments will have prevailed, and I am delighted about that.

In moving that the Bill be read a second time, the noble Lord said:

“The fact that a body is named in Schedule 7 to the Bill should not be misconstrued as constituting an intent to abolish or otherwise reform”.—[Official Report, 9/11/10; col. 67.]

He said that in good faith, but it is understandable that any body mentioned in Schedule 7 was immediately worried. Its current operations and future prospects were thrown into doubt and confusion. I recognise that that cannot have been the Government’s intent—that simply does not make economic sense or for good governance—but it was the reality. Each organisation believed itself to be just two orders away from modification, merger or, even worse, abolition. The chilling factor already mentioned was mighty.

If the Minister had not indicated that the Government were minded to delete Clause 11 and Schedule 7, I can assure him that Committee stage would have lasted for even longer, because it would have been our duty to table an amendment on each of the bodies to tease out from the Government their intentions for the body in question. Thankfully, such scrutiny was not needed but, more importantly, the clause and schedule are being deleted, so the axe has been lifted and the bodies mentioned can get on with their work.

I do not want to detain noble Lords at this hour, but I must say that Clause 11 and Schedule 7 were very unwise. They are a testament to rushed drafting and a woeful lack of consultation between the Cabinet Office and other departments. The Government have seen sense; and I am glad. I have a question for the Minister. I presume that some of the bodies mentioned in the schedule might be moved at some stage in the legislative process. Can he say which or how many bodies will be moved, where they will be moved to and when that will be? I would naturally also be grateful for confirmation that the necessary consultation is taking place at this moment with any bodies likely to be moved from Schedule 7 into another schedule.

I have great sympathy with the noble Lord, Lord Norton of Louth, when he says that there should be a Public Bodies Bill at the beginning of each Parliament but, in essence, if we are all content with the framework of this Bill and the schedules are sunsetted, that is what we will have.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I am very grateful for those contributions. If there were any doubt why we were wise not to keep Schedule 7 in the Bill, the answer lies in the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Rowlands. As like as not, nothing would have happened to those bodies. They would have been subject to a review in another three years under a periodic review of public bodies, which is an ongoing commitment of the Government. As the noble Baroness pointed out, it was very difficult for any representative of the Government to convince public bodies that that was the case. We may now have a much more satisfactory solution—from both a parliamentary and a practical point of view—to how the review of public bodies can be an ongoing process.

I thank my noble friend Lord Norton of Louth. He and I have known each other longer, I guess, than any other people in this House. We were youngsters together. Indeed, my noble friend was the William Hague of his day at Conservative Party conferences, but he will probably not thank me very much for revealing that to the House. I thank him for his comments. We have taken the committee’s reports seriously and sought to address them, because I have taken the view that the guidance of this House has been positive rather than destructive.

I turn specifically to a comment of the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, that there was a lack of discussion between the departments. I do not think there has been any Bill in which there has been so much discussion across government departments. It is one of the complexities of this Bill that it involves every department, so all departments have been involved in the preparation and structure of the Bill.

As for the detailed question which the noble Baroness asked me about any movement of bodies into schedules during various stages of the Bill, I am not in a position to give an answer on that at this stage, but I will keep the House informed. We are determined that nothing should be introduced to the Bill that cannot be justified by a strong sense of purpose and suitability, and it is not a large number of bodies involved. Consultations are going on, but there will be a number of bodies where proposals exist to come into the Bill that will not be introduced into the Bill because we do not consider that they are in a suitable state of preparation. We feel that we have to justify the admission of any body that we bring into the Bill at this stage. I think that is a reasonable position, and I hope all Members of the Committee will agree with that.

The noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, and I have talked about the problem that she has. When she talked about the Government being deaf, I hope she was not referring to me. I hope she would acknowledge that I responded immediately to the point she made; I got a response and I showed it to her this evening before we came in here in the hope that we would not have to debate it. That is because it is not really a matter for this Bill; it is a matter of the relationship between public bodies—and particularly those in the legal sector—and Government. I will, of course, write to her on the situation as it is, and I note her interest in the matter. I hope that we can keep in touch.

I should just say a few words on these parts of the Bill. As set out in the House on 28 February, these parts of the Bill were designed to facilitate the Government’s stated commitment to the regular review of all public bodies by creating a means by which changes to such bodies could be made following future reviews without recourse to further primary legislation. It was not, as some have suggested, intended to threaten the status of public bodies that the Government had decided needed to be retained. In particular, the Government recognise that some public functions need to be carried out independently of Ministers. Schedule 7 was never intended to hinder or threaten their independence. However, following representations from noble Lords across the House, including Members of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee, the Government have acknowledged the significant concern within the House that these parts of the Bill represented a significant delegation of powers to Ministers and had the potential to constitute a threat to the necessary independence of some public functions.

Accordingly, I have added my name to those of other noble Lords opposing the question that Clause 11 and Schedule 7 should stand part of the Bill. The consequences of removing these parts from the Bill will be that the powers in the Public Bodies Bill cannot apply to any body or office without the express approval of Parliament through primary legislation for that body or office to be listed in one of the Bill’s schedules. Accordingly, any changes to public bodies following the Government’s planned future reviews which necessitate legislation will require a primary legislative vehicle. I hope that this change provides a significant assurance to the Committee both as regards the status of bodies and the Government’s commitment to the appropriate parliamentary scrutiny of government policy.

As I set out on 28 February, it will also be necessary, as a result of the removal of Schedule 7, to introduce a small number of amendments to move bodies currently in that schedule to one or more of the other schedules. These changes will ensure that all the reforms announced in last year’s review can be implemented. These amendments will be made at a later stage of the Bill.

I thank noble Lords for their contributions to the debate and for their positive and helpful engagement on the question of the proper scope and mechanism of this Bill. Throughout its passage to date I hope that, in agreeing to oppose the question that Clause 11 and Schedule 7 should stand part, I have been able to demonstrate the Government’s commitment to engage with and respond to the concerns of noble Lords.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Wigley]

My Lords, in moving this amendment I shall speak also to Amendment 166BZB. I certainly shall not unduly detain the Committee at this late hour, and we touched on certain aspects relating to Welsh speakers in the context of S4C earlier today—it seems very much earlier by now. Ministers will be aware that public bodies in Wales have Welsh language responsibilities under the Welsh Language Act 1993. This is now in the process of being replaced by new legislation passed by the National Assembly for Wales last year. The question that arises in the context of the Public Bodies Bill is that of ensuring continuity, clarity, consistency and the safeguarding of Welsh language rights when bodies operating in Wales may be merged with other bodies which do not necessarily currently have either a statutory or possibly a voluntary language plan.

These new clauses address two aspects of this. Amendment 166BZA provides for the continuity of language requirement when functions transfer from one body to another under this Act. Amendment 166BZB places a responsibility on relevant Ministers, before making an order under this legislation in relation to a public body that provides services to the public in Wales, to undertake an assessment of the implications of change on the use of the Welsh language in the provision of those services. Consultation for such assessment could be done either by the Minister here or by Ministers of the Welsh Government, as might be appropriate.

I would therefore ask the Minister either to accept these new clauses, to consider before the Report stage how to deal with the issue, or to give me an assurance that somehow these matters have already been looked after in a way that neither I nor the Welsh Language Board, which helped me with these amendments, are aware of so far. I beg to move.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, we support the amendments because they would safeguard and promote the Welsh language. They are fundamental to the protection of the Welsh language in Wales and to good governance there. We hope that the Minister will be able to take them away and consider them before Report.

[Baroness Rawlings]

My Lords, we return to Wales. At this late hour, I am sure that noble Lords will appreciate my being brief, but this does not imply that we do not take the two amendments seriously.

The Government sympathise with the desire of the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, to make certain that support for the Welsh language, which is undertaken by many bodies providing public services in Wales, is not lost when roles are transferred from one person to another. This is not our desire and we are committed to making certain that this work is not undermined. However, where we differ with the noble Lord is on whether the amendments represent the best means of achieving this aim.

I shall first consider the noble Lord’s Amendment 166BZB, on Welsh language assessments. I understand that there are 18 bodies whose roles could be transferred under the Bill which currently have Welsh language schemes and services. If the roles of those bodies are transferred elsewhere, the Government will consider the options for maintaining these services. Ministers will conduct impact assessments when proposing to make orders under the Bill. The Bill will require them to consult a wide range of interested parties.

I turn to Amendment 166BZA, on the application of Welsh language requirements. Welsh Ministers already have the power to bring bodies within the scope of the Welsh language legislation. The precise duties which are imposed are then a matter for negotiation with the Welsh Language Board. In the Government’s view, these powers provide a more appropriate way of addressing this issue than the noble Lord’s amendment. Indeed, the amendment could even reduce Welsh language provision. We consider it more appropriate to assess what requirements are needed in the context of each specific transfer, using the powers available in Welsh language legislation and in the Bill.

I thank the noble Lord for bringing up this matter. Consultation is going on. I hope, therefore, that he will not wish to press his amendments.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Henley)]

My Lords, it is with some delight and some relief that I move Amendment 175C and in doing so speak to Amendments 175D, 175E and 182. The relief for all those in the Committee at this stage is because this is the last substantive group in the entire stage.

Before I finish, I offer an apology to the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, in that I promised him that we would end with a Welsh amendment. I am afraid that we are not doing that—it was going to come earlier but it was not moved.

I informed the Committee last week that the Government had decided to remove the forestry clauses from the Bill, and this we have now done. This set of amendments would remove a series of references to the Forestry Commission from Clauses 23 and 24. It is a tidying up exercise. I beg to move.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I warmly welcome these amendments and the removal of the final references to the Forestry Commission. We have been told on numerous occasions that the campaign against the sale of our forests and woodlands was inflammatory and misguided, but the forestry clauses were, I believe, a testament to the fact that the Government wished to enable the sale of our woodlands and forests. The Minister responsible made that clear on a number of occasions. I am glad that the Bill is now being amended. I know that hundreds of people up and down the country will feel mightily relieved—the very people who welcomed the independent panel looking into the future of forestry. We look forward to their deliberations in due course.

Amendment 175C agreed.