Food Supply and Security

Baroness Quin Excerpts

Thursday 14th May 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Quin (Lab)]

My Lords, I also pay tribute to the noble Baroness, Lady Boycott, both for this debate and for her campaigning work on food poverty and food insecurity.

I will raise two issues where I think the Government need to rethink their policy. The first is immigration, which has been mentioned. As well as maximising the job opportunities for our own citizens, we need a much more flexible immigration policy, particularly for the agricultural and food industries, where a range of skills is needed, from fruit picking to specialised vets. Our rigid approach ignores many of the real needs of our economy. Indeed, last night on the BBC news we saw the case of a hospital cleaner, currently doing absolutely vital work but facing an unaffordable bill for her visa extension. This is crazy. We need more flexibility and humanity in our immigration policy.

Secondly, we need to rethink our trade policy. We seem to be prioritising trade deals far beyond Europe but, for agriculture and the food industry, EU trade is vital. In the post-Covid world, and to meet environmental goals, we need to trade more, not less, with our nearest neighbours.

We have to get those important EU trade negotiations right for our economy’s sake, and because of the complications for Northern Ireland that we have heard about. The Government seems to have ruled out any alteration to the timetable, whatever the circumstances. I put it to the Minister that we have been plagued by unrealistic declamatory self-imposed deadlines for political reasons rather than economic or common-sense considerations. Can we please, from now on, make decisions based on what is best for our economic recovery, not on political dogma?

Trade Policy: Environmental Aspects

Baroness Quin Excerpts

Thursday 23rd January 2020 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Baroness Quin]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what discussions they have held with representatives of environmental organisations about the environmental aspects of government trade policy.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Gardiner of Kimble) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government have met regularly with a range of environmental organisations throughout the development of trade policy via advisory groups, ministerial round tables and individual meetings with industry bodies, regulators and think tanks. More trade should not come at the expense of the environment. Instead, trade policy can support clean growth and environmental innovation. We remain firmly committed to upholding our high environmental standards and will continue to talk to environmental groups throughout trade negotiations.

[Baroness Quin (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply, but the Government’s recent pronouncements, particularly by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, seem to move away from trade with Europe towards trade with countries much further away geographically. As far as trade in goods is concerned, that is bound to mean more air miles and more fuel-consuming, polluting ocean voyages. Does the Minister not agree that it makes environmental sense to trade more with our nearest neighbours in the future and not less? What environmental assessment of this have the Government made and will he share it with Parliament?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I will have to write to the noble Baroness about any assessment. But I can say—this is really important—that we in this country believe that we have enormous potential for low-carbon exports of goods and services, which we have estimated to be between £60 billion and £170 billion by 2030. As I said in my earlier Answer, we can have more trade, but it needs to be through the prism of a low-carbon, circular economy. That is what we seek to do. Yes, we want a substantial and positive free-trade negotiation with our friends and partners in the EU, but we also think that, given the dynamic of our economy and that our low-carbon economy is increasing, there is merit in having trade negotiations in parallel with other parts of the world. We should see that as positive for the environment.

Ivory Bill

Baroness Quin Excerpts

Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 24th October 2018 Lords Chamber

I do not want to detain the House long. We have had significant debates in Committee and many noble Lords raised these points at Second Reading, but I believe that it is a modest step that I am suggesting. I beg to move.

[Baroness Quin (Lab)]

My Lords, I will speak to my Amendment 28, which is grouped with Amendment 2, which has just been moved by the noble Lord, Lord Cormack. Once again, I seek to entertain Members of your Lordships’ House with tales of the Northumbrian pipes. My amendment covers a very narrow part of the music industry, but I hope that it will receive sympathetic consideration today. I should declare that I am the president of the Northumbrian Pipers’ Society, which is not a paid role but one that I am very proud to have. I also declare that I own two sets of Northumbrian pipes, but neither contains any ivory.

In Committee, sympathy was expressed on all sides about the fact that the sale and hire of a small number of Northumbrian pipes—even a small number of Northumbrian pipes is quite a large proportion of the Northumbrian pipe market—would be caught by the Bill. I was very grateful that the Minister agreed to meet, and got his officials to meet, representatives of the Northumbrian Pipers’ Society to discuss their concerns about the Bill. I am also grateful to the senior official who met Andrew Davison, the chair of the Northumbrian Pipers’ Society. They discussed things in some detail in Newcastle. I know that that was appreciated by members of the piping community.

However, following that consultation and the serious look that Defra undoubtedly gave to the situation of the Northumbrian pipes, the Minister wrote to me and said that, while he recognised that a number of instruments were made after 1975 with ivory repurposed from billiard balls and other ivory items found in antique and bric-à-brac shops, those instruments would not meet the Clause 8 exemption for musical instruments as the ivory would have been worked into its present form after 1975, even if it came from—I understand that it almost always does—an older piece of ivory. That decision by the Government still causes concern among Northumbrian pipers, as the Minister will understand. Therefore, I tabled the amendment in my name to try to deal with this particular issue.

In his letter, the Minister said that although they had looked closely at the particular circumstances of the Northumbrian pipes, he regretted that it did not prove possible to amend the Bill in such a way as would not undermine the premise of the Bill or inadvertently create a significant, exploitable loophole. I agree with the Government’s desire to avoid the creation of a loophole—very much so—so the amendment that I have tabled tries to deal with that particular problem. The amendment states:

“An item that has ivory in it is exempt from the prohibition if it is a musical instrument that has been certified by the Northumbrian Pipers’ Society, or a similar approved organisation, as being a set of, or part of a set of, Northumbrian pipes made before the passing of this Act, and covered by a valid Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora (CITES) certificate”.


Even if that is not the perfect formulation, something like that is an alteration that could be made to the Bill in order to deal with this specific issue.

I listened carefully to what the noble Lord, Lord Hague, said about exports and I agree completely, but we are not talking here about exports but about a limited UK market, which is being somewhat threatened by what has been proposed. Therefore, it behoves us to try to look for a way through to see if an appropriate amendment can be made.

I know that, all along, the Government have not wanted amendments to the Bill and have wanted speedy passage of it, but as we can see from the Order Paper today, the Government have had to introduce a large number of amendments themselves. Given that the Bill will go back to the House of Commons, it seems to me that it gives us an opportunity to make one or two minor amendments, such as the one that I am proposing, which in no way undermines the principle of the Bill.

We are talking about ivory from old billiard balls and broken umbrella handles; I have seen some of the instruments that have been made with ivory of this kind. I also believe that it is very difficult to remove ivory from most of the Northumbrian pipes that I am talking about, without causing both irreparable harm to the pipes and quite a bit of damage to the ivory itself. We are also talking about small quantities of ivory. If there was a verification process of the kind I am talking about, that would deal with the issue in a way that would be satisfactory to pipers, as well as helping to keep this important regional musical tradition going.

In tabling this amendment, I have had the support of the noble Lords, Lord Vinson and Lord Beith, both of whom live in Northumberland and understand the issue of Northumbrian pipes very thoroughly. Therefore, I hope the Minister will take account of the amendment. I am glad that my noble friends on the Front Bench have a later amendment which talks about a report on the workings of this Bill and what effect it might have on the sale and hire of musical instruments in the UK. I am very grateful for that particular form of words, and hope to support that amendment at a later stage. In the meantime, I hope that the Minister will give careful consideration to the fairly minor and limited nature of the amendment that I am putting forward.

[Lord De Mauley (Con)]

My Lords, I once again declare my interest as chairman of LAPADA, the art and antique dealers’ trade association. The views I express today are my own, but they are informed by my involvement with LAPADA. I will speak to my Amendment 23 in this group, which, like my noble friend Lord Cormack’s, goes to the matter of the 10% de minimis rule. Given some of what I am about to speak of, I would like to say at the outset that my noble friend the Minister is not personally responsible for this Bill. When I had his job at Defra, I was the Minister responsible for the UK’s contribution to efforts to bear down on illegal wildlife trafficking, but by a quirk of restructuring of ministerial responsibilities, he is not. As always, he has conducted himself perfectly correctly through the passage of this Bill, even if I would have loved him to have persuaded his colleagues of its perverseness.

I am very disappointed to report that I have received no response on the points I raised concerning Art Deco artefacts and the UK’s ivory export figures—points which I at least regard as important. A vital element in any decision-making process is that those decisions should be made with as full a knowledge of the facts as is possible in the circumstances. For the last 18 months, profoundly misleading information about the extent of the UK’s role in the international movement of antique and worked ivory objects has been allowed to circulate and be regularly repeated, without being corrected by those who have been in a position to refute, or at least clarify, it.

In the period leading up to the Government’s ivory consultation, the UK’s “official” ivory export figures were employed by several high-profile wildlife organisations to justify their demands for a very restrictive ban on the sale of antique ivory. I refer to the information supplied by Defra to CITES each year. The Born Free Foundation claimed that for the period from 2006 to 2015, the UK’s exports represented 54% of the ivory exports from the entire EU, and that these exports comprised 25,352 ivory items. Indeed, my noble friend the Minister stated in Committee that, between 2005 and 2014, the UK had been responsible for 31% of the ivory exported from the EU for commercial purposes. The Environmental Investigation Agency claimed that the UK is the “world’s largest” ivory exporter. From this language, any sane, trusting person who cares about the welfare of endangered species would be forgiven for imagining that the UK exports thousands of ivory tusks to China as a commodity for carving—something that, if true, would indeed help to fuel the Chinese passion and demand for ivory. I should point out that, in fact, the world’s largest supplier of ivory to the world’s ivory markets is, of course, the continent of Africa.

The EIA announced:

“UK ivory exports are stimulating consumer demand globally, especially in Hong Kong and China, two of the world’s largest markets for both legal and illegal ivory. Even as the Government of China works towards closing its domestic ivory market by the end of 2017, the UK continues to inject a large amount of ivory into China”.


By any reckoning, those are strong and serious allegations, made even more powerful by the language employed and the standing of the body making them.

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Moved by

[Baroness Quin]

27: After Clause 8, insert the following new Clause—
“Report on the impact of this Act on the hire and sale of musical instruments
At the end of the period of five years beginning with the day on which this Act is passed, the Secretary of State must lay before each House of Parliament a report on the impact of this Act on the hire and sale of musical instruments containing ivory in the United Kingdom.”

[Baroness Quin]

I briefly move Amendment 27, which asks for a report on the impact of the Bill—the Act when it receives Royal Assent—on the hire and sale of musical instruments. The amendment calls for such a report at the end of a period of five years beginning with the day on which the Act is passed. However, since tabling my amendment, I note that my noble friend Lady Jones has tabled Amendment 41, which is in many ways a more satisfactory version of my amendment, because it calls for a more wide-ranging report—including the point that I make in my amendment—on an annual basis. I hope that the Minister will look favourably on Amendment 41 and, because of the existence of that amendment, will say nothing further about Amendment 27.

[Lord Grantchester]

I shall speak to Amendments 41 and 78 in this group. Amendment 41 would require the Secretary of State to prescribe appropriate categories for the purpose of publication and specifically precludes the release of any information that would be unlawful or might lead to the identification of the owner. At this stage, I ask the Minister to go somewhat further than she did in Committee and clarify more specifically what the Government can do, at what intervals and through what media, to give confidence that the Bill is working effectively.

Amendment 78 requires the Secretary of State to publish an annual report covering the implementation and impact of the ivory ban domestically and internationally. This includes the work of the various bodies involved, including the Office for Product Safety and Standards, the Animal and Plant Health Agency and the National Wildlife Crime Unit. We feel that this is very important given the concerns raised in Committee about the resources—or, perhaps more accurately, the lack of resources—available to these organisations, as well as their specific role in the implementation of the Bill.

We also feel that it is important to consider the hire and sale of musical instruments containing ivory, as my noble friend Lady Quin explained. The 20% exemption for musical instruments is designed to allow most instruments to be exempt from the Bill, including pianos and bagpipes. Although we do not support more widely drawn amendments, we must be aware of the impact that the ban will have on this artistic activity.

Importantly, we would also want the report to build on any international reports considering the impact on nations or communities that generate income from ivory. Poachers who kill elephants are usually poor and looking for a way to feed themselves and their family. However, education and development are needed so that communities can be turned to recognise the value of elephant tourism. An elephant is worth 76 times more alive in a savannah than in a market place. The report could augment the view that managed conservation with tourism will offer an alternative sustainable income to elephant communities and wider populations of Africa. Will the Minister go a little further than she was able to go in Committee?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

My Lords, the Government fully appreciate the sentiment behind the amendments in this group. Monitoring the implementation and impacts of the ban on the ivory market and other affected sectors is very important.

I turn first to Amendment 41, in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, on the publication of a report on matters relating to the exemptions to the ban. In Committee, there was widespread agreement in your Lordships’ House about the importance of transparency and providing information to the public. I believe that the Government’s commitment to share publicly information on exemptions, in line with the Data Protection Act, was welcomed. We are committed to publish data on appeals, the number of items registered and the number of exemption certificates issued and revoked each year and to include a breakdown of these numbers into categories such as statues, reliefs, furniture and musical instruments. The noble Baroness’s amendment reflects these commitments, for which I am grateful, and I am happy to repeat them today. I cannot, however, agree that an amendment is needed and hope that the commitments that the Government have made will suffice.

I turn to Amendment 78, again in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, regarding a report on the impact and implementation of the Bill. I appreciate that the noble Baroness has reflected points raised in Committee in this amendment. I reassure your Lordships’ House that, as a matter of course, the Government will assess the impact and implementation of the ban over time, in particular its enforcement. Much of this information will be available in the public domain and subject to public scrutiny.

It might assist noble Lords if I give a number of related examples of where this kind of information is already provided publicly. Perhaps this will assist the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, in understanding the types of information that we will be publishing. The regulatory body that we have chosen to help enforce the ivory ban, the Office for Product Safety and Standards, already publishes an annual report which includes its activity over the year for each of the different regulatory areas the body covers. The Animal and Plant Health Authority, which will administer the registration system among other things, submits annual trade data on used permits to the secretariat of the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species—CITES. This data is available publicly on the CITES database. The National Wildlife Crime Unit, where appropriate, issues press releases on closed cases it has been involved in, often including the penalties issued. These publications will continue, and we will consider how we can provide further information that will complement but not duplicate them. An obligation in the Bill to produce reports would risk duplication and be a considerable and unnecessarily expensive undertaking.

With regard to the Department for International Development, a number of announcements were made at the Illegal Wildlife Trade Conference earlier this month about additional funds being made available from DfID and Defra, including £46.6 million to protect endangered species and a £20 million round of UK Aid Match for wildlife and conservation issues. Any programme that is run by DfID must publish an annual review online demonstrating its results.

With regard to nations generating income from ivory, as referred to in Amendment 78, we believe that the decline in elephant populations deprives some of the poorest countries in the world of their natural resources, which impacts economic growth and sustainable development. The illegal ivory trade is conducted almost uniquely by organised criminal groups and the money from this despicable trade rarely reaches local communities and the people who need it.

At the request of the noble Baroness, Lady Quin, I will not respond directly to her amendment, but I hope that she takes comfort from my words about the types of data that we will be drawing out and the categories of items that we will be able to summarise.

I hope that I have been able to reassure the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, and the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, and that the noble Baroness, Lady Quin, feels able to withdraw her amendment.

[Baroness Quin]

My Lords, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment 27 withdrawn.

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Moved by

[Baroness Quin]

28: After Clause 8, insert the following new Clause—
“Northumbrian pipes
An item that has ivory in it is exempt from the prohibition if it is a musical instrument that has been certified by the Northumbrian Pipers’ Society, or a similar approved organisation, as being a set of, or part of a set of, Northumbrian pipes made before the passing of this Act, and covered by a valid Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora (CITES) certificate.”

[Baroness Quin]

My Lords, I spoke to this amendment earlier. I felt that I was proposing a tightly drawn amendment which would remove any opportunity to create a loophole of the kind that the Government feared. I was disappointed that the Government did not take the opportunity to accept the amendment or say that they would look at it with the view to introducing an amendment later dealing with the points that I raised. Normally, I would be tempted to test the opinion of the House, but I recognise political reality when I see it. Certainly, since the Government, the Opposition Front Bench and the Liberal Democrat Front Bench did not express their support, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 28 withdrawn.

Ivory Bill

Baroness Quin Excerpts

Monday 10th September 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cormack]

I am sorry it is me again but I feel strongly about these things. In my two amendments and the one tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Quin, we are looking at music and musical instruments. I was encouraged to take an interest in this because of the admirable, although brief, speech that my noble friend—that is what I am going to call him—Lord Berkeley made at Second Reading. He indicated that, here again, the ivory happens to be the material but it is incidental. People do not buy a particular violin, a particular piano or set of Northumbrian pipes—I shall give the noble Baroness, Lady Quin, a trail, because I do so agree with her—because of the ivory content. Nevertheless, the ivory content is integral and is important.

I had representations only last week about bows. I was told things that I did not necessarily know. The small piece of ivory in a bow for a stringed instrument—a violin, cello or whatever—can be less than 1% and is gradually being replaced, through wear, with plastic in the cheaper ones, or permafrost mammoth. There was a quite preposterous suggestion at Second Reading that we should outlaw the use of ivory from mammoth, which have been extinct for millennia—God help me. My correspondent goes on to say that requiring all extant bows to be registered with Defra, and a de minimis rule, will swamp both Defra and the other offices concerned. She points out that there are 30,000 members of the Musicians’ Union in this country, the vast majority of whom make their profession from the use of bows. New legislation would make it difficult for them to tour with their bows or to sell them.

If the 30,000 professional musicians are not a sufficient concern, consider the amateurs. Consider how often, in this House, Members in all parts get up and lament what is happening to music in schools. We are dealing here with something where the ivory content is not only incidental, it is insignificant. We cannot have a situation where not only the artistic heritage of our country is put at risk but the musical heritage as well. I have suggested in Amendment 24 that we should put the content up from 20% to 30% and I hope we will be able to debate that in greater detail on Report. I stress that Amendment 26A is the most modest proposal of all—and I do not mean that in the sense of Jonathan Swift. Again, I beg and urge my noble friend to show some sympathy, as a man who, I believe, loves music, and recognise that we are not doing anything here that could conceivably endanger any living elephant. I beg to move.

[Baroness Quin (Lab)]

My Lords, Amendment 26 is in my name and is part of this group. I had very much hoped not to speak in Committee, or bring forward an amendment, as I had hoped that the problems that the Bill poses for the sale of second-hand Northumbrian pipes bought entirely legally in the first place would have been addressed at earlier stages, even in the other place. However, I do wish to speak to my amendment today, and it may be helpful if I put on record once again the fact that I am president of the Northumbrian Pipers’ Society. This is a role that involves no financial payment whatever, and although I do own two sets of pipes, neither of the sets contains any ivory. At Second Reading I explained some of my concern about the Bill’s provisions while strongly giving the Bill my overall support. In fact, I have been in favour of an ivory ban for many years and it is somewhat upsetting to be suspected of not supporting a ban simply for raising a rather narrow issue and a valid concern.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

The noble Lord and I are on the same page. That is exactly the sort of requirement that I think we should have so that we can understand the points that noble Lords have made.

Some Northumbrian pipes may contain over 20% ivory and therefore may not meet the musical instruments exemption. I obviously cannot commit to this, but having heard what the noble Baroness and the noble Lord have said, is it possible that they could be considered under the rarest and most important items exemption, for instance, because of what the pipes mean in the community? I emphasise that the 20% measurement is applied to the whole instrument, including in the case of the pipes, the bag. I asked this question this morning: it does not include the inflated bag, but it does include the bag. I hope that detail is helpful.

I am a great champion of local traditions. This provision would not stop the pipes being played or enjoyed. As the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, has said, the ability to pass on and to donate these instruments so that the next generation can enjoy those that are not under 20% is still available. On that matter, not just because it was raised by the noble Baroness but because I recognise that I want the Northumbrian Pipers’ Society to feel that it has had a proper hearing, I will ask for that meeting to take place.

[Baroness Quin]

I would like to put on record how grateful I am to the Minister for listening to the concerns and for at least showing willingness to address some of these issues before the Bill receives Royal Assent.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

As ever, the noble Baroness is very generous in saying that.

I wonder whether my noble friend Lord De Mauley disagrees with my remarks, rather than my not having responded. One of the things I try to do is always to ask whether we have we answered the question. It may be that he and other noble friends simply do not agree with the analysis.

Ivory Bill

Baroness Quin Excerpts

2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 17th July 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Quin (Lab)]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to speak in this debate and welcome this Bill. I pay tribute to the Minister for introducing it, and to my noble friend Lord Grantchester, who both showed that there is very strong cross-party support for this measure. Indeed, that cross-party support was very clearly seen in the House of Commons and already in this debate there has been very marked all-party support in your Lordships’ House.

The history of killing elephants for ivory is a very ugly and shameful one. The sheer scale of the slaughter shows that we are in a race against extinction of one of the world’s most well-loved species. However, I was glad the noble Baroness, Lady Miller, reminded us that there have been human victims of this ivory trade too, including brave people who have given their lives to combat it, and they deserve to be remembered and known for their valour and courage.

I am glad that the Labour Party has a history in its manifesto of committing to this measure, and I support the amendments put forward by the Opposition in another place in seeking to allow the Bill to be extended to other animals. I very much take the point of the noble Lord, Lord Hague, that simply banning elephant ivory risks displacement to other similar ivory substances. However, in speaking in this debate I will make particular reference to musical instruments. I am glad that my noble friend Lord Grantchester and the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, mentioned this. I will mention an instrument that I imagine was not in the forefront of drafters’ minds when they were looking at this legislation: the Northumbrian pipes. I have a non-financial interest to declare in that I am president of the Northumbrian Pipers Society. I own two sets of pipes, although they do not contain any ivory.

The Northumbrian pipes are perhaps the only indigenous instrument of the regions of England still being played. They are not like the Scottish bagpipes in that they are a domestic instrument, rather than an instrument that can be played in grand open-air ceremonies. Indeed, their history is that they used to be played largely by shepherds in hillside cottages in the winters in Northumberland for local entertainment. The difference between the two sets of pipes was brought home to me when I tried to arrange a reception for pipers here in the House of Lords in which I hoped 20 pipers would be able to play in quite a small room. The authorities at first looked at me with some horror, imagining the amount of sound that would come from 20 or so pipers in a room. I commend these instruments to your Lordships. Indeed, in this summer of the Great Exhibition of the North I hope you will all visit Newcastle and the north-east to hear them for yourselves.

There is an issue with the retrospectivity in the legislation. A lot of Northumbrian pipes were made entirely legally in the 1970s and the 1980s, when there was renewed interest in the instrument, using either antique or CITES-licensed ivory. These days, many of those original pipe-makers are now not making pipes. It is felt that if the exemption applies as strictly as is currently arranged in the Bill, it will be quite difficult for those Northumbrian pipes to remain on the market and to be used, at a time when we are trying to increase interest in the instrument, in particular to increase the playing of it in schools and local areas in the north-east.

The percentage rule has been mentioned. I ask the Minister—it is not clear to me, although it might be to others—why those percentages were chosen and how they are interpreted. In the case of the pipes, for example, if you look at just the actual pipes, several would easily come over the 20% rule, although for the instrument as a whole, with the bellows and the bag, the percentage would be rather different. Would the Minister address in Committee, if not today, how these percentages will operate? I note he said it was by volume, but I would like some clarification of how that operates in the case of a rather complex instrument like the Northumbrian pipes.

I was struck by the powerful speech from the noble Lord, Lord Hague, and I understand and support the rationale behind the Bill, but I find it slightly difficult to understand how permitting the sale of the Northumbrian pipes made after 1975, entirely legally—pipes that were bought as instruments to be played, not as pieces of ivory to collect—would in any way threaten the vital battle against the poaching of elephants. These items will be on the market despite their ivory content, not because of it.

The Minister in the other place expressed sympathy about this and agreed to meet with Members of the other place who raised this issue, in particular the Member of Parliament for Berwick-upon-Tweed and my honourable and good friend Liz Twist, the MP for Blaydon. I hope that those meetings are taking place and that some ways of addressing this issue can be thought about in a sympathetic way. I know that the Minister here today and my noble friends are aware of my concern, so I will not say anything further about it at this stage but will perhaps revert to it in Committee if I feel I want to explore the issues further.

I do not wish what I have said to detract from my overall support for this measure, which I believe is extremely important. It is important in its own right, but also in terms of our commitments to biodiversity at the international and national level. We all know what a challenge biodiversity is in the world today. It is even a challenge to us here in the UK—with threats to species such as the hedgehog, the water vole and our beloved red squirrel, there are many challenges for us here to address—but internationally this is a huge challenge, and fundamentally I believe that the Bill is an important way of starting to meet it.

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[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, this has been an exceptional debate and we have heard from noble Lords with direct knowledge of events in Africa where the elephant is being slaughtered in unsustainable numbers. I want in particular to pay tribute to my noble friends Lady Chalker of Wallasey and Lord Hague of Richmond, who have been so instrumental in doing a great deal for the interests of communities in Africa. I pay tribute also to the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, on his experiences. I do so because I believe strongly that if our generation does not act now, it will be too late. I should also say, given the many questions put to me and the many notes I have received, that your Lordships would be sitting for a very long time if I were to answer every single question. A comprehensive reply to all the comments that have been made will of course follow this debate. I have the answers to almost all the points but, in the time available, it will not be possible to do them justice.

I shall turn immediately to an issue raised by a number of noble Lords, which is that of heritage in terms of natural heritage, as outlined by the noble Baroness, Lady Flather, in relating her experiences of the elephant, and indeed how we would rob some of the world’s poorest communities of their natural resources and deprive us and future generations of this extraordinarily inspirational creature. I am also most grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, for expressing her support for government initiatives, a number of which were referred to by my noble friend Lady Fookes. Through the IWT Challenge Fund, we have been supporting projects around the world to engage local communities in conservation, to enhance human/wildlife coexistence, and to strengthen community involvement in helping to tackle crime. These are the communities that are being impoverished by this trade, and it is others around the world who are enriched by it. I was also struck by what my noble friend Lady Rawlings said about the British effort, and obviously I am really pleased that our gallant forces in the military have been helping in Gabon and Malawi to deal with poachers.

As I mentioned earlier—and as the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, will know through his close association with the Giants Club—the summit held in Botswana in March this year reflected the unity among the political leaders of the four countries that hold half of Africa’s remaining elephants. At that summit, the Presidents of those four countries signed a petition that called on the EU and by extension its member states to shut down their domestic markets, end all ivory exports and support efforts to ban the global ivory trade. They join 28 other African nations as signatories to the petition. That is an extraordinary request from the continent of Africa where these wonderful creatures are, and we must respond.

A number of points were made about other species. I want to deal with those immediately by saying that it is absolutely the Government’s intention to launch a consultation seeking views and evidence for extending the definition of ivory on or as soon as practicable following Royal Assent to the Bill. There are reasons for that. We have already taken a power in the Bill to allow the Secretary of State to extend it to cover other ivory-bearing species through regulation, and the power taken extends from applying only to ivory-bearing species listed under CITES to any ivory-bearing species. Obviously the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, and I can exchange legal opinion, but in the end it will be the Secretary of State and this Minister who will have to sign the certificate, which as noble Lords know is part of our ministerial responsibilities. The legal advice we have is that we must consult, and we will do that as soon as possible. However, I am happy to have sight of any legal opinion referred to by the noble Baroness, but that is the legal advice we have received, and in the end it is for Ministers of the Government to sign the certificate as a matter of compliance, as one would expect.

A number of issues were raised about the ban and the country’s place in it. I was very struck by my noble friend Lord Hague’s reference to China, saying “Well, when are you going to do something about this?” Indeed, it is important to know that whatever noble Lords may say, ivory will not be a symbol of luxury anymore. We have sought a balance between absolutely curtailing and snuffing out demand, and having the exemptions that we have decided are proportionate. However, the balance in this legislation will always be that living creatures are the most important priority.

I am very glad that my noble friends Lady Rawlings and Lord Crathorne spoke about the exemptions and the rationale. I assure your Lordships, particularly my noble friends—and they are my noble friends—who have expressed the concerns of the antique trade, museums and musicians, that we have had considerable discussions with those sectors. If time permits, I will read out some of the quotes that we have had from the antique sector and musicians, who expressed some surprise that we have reached such exemptions and that the conservation NGOs think that they are proportionate. Indeed, they have expressed surprise; they thought that they were in a position where they can manage the situation.

I say to my noble friends that getting this right is our priority, but we have this Bill because of the slaughter of an animal that will be extinct in the wild unless we do something demonstrable. Neither I nor the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, is saying that there is a connection. As I said in my opening remarks, to which my noble friend Lord Hague of Richmond referred, a UN Office on Drugs and Crime report made it absolutely clear that,

“the trade in illicit ivory is only lucrative because there is a parallel licit supply”.

That is the challenge we must take on with the demand for ivory, particularly in east Asia. The figures that I have expressed to your Lordships show that the amount of ivory going from this country to Asia has been increasing, not decreasing. We need to deal with that. I want to make it very clear that we have sought a balance that we think is proportionate. I will be very pleased, both in writing and in further stages of the Bill, to explain our rationale.

We had 70,000 responses from individuals and even more from campaigning organisations. The strong message was that we should have a comprehensive ban. We thought that having these exemptions was proportionate because we were persuaded that they would not fuel the demand that we must snuff out. As we have said, it is clear that the restrictions go beyond the CITES requirements on restrictions for post-1990 ivory. We have also gone further than the EU precisely because our lead is being looked at by other countries. This is not about some sort of gesture; it is about leadership and saying that this trade must stop. We must do everything we can to stop it. I am clear that we have been, and will remain, resolute. I understand that the function of this House is to scrutinise and improve, but we have sought to do what we can to find the right balance in these matters.

A number of noble Lords made points about online issues. I want to make it absolutely clear that this legislation takes enforcement extremely seriously. We intend the Animal and Plant Health Agency, the Office for Product Safety and Standards and the police to have access to registration systems, take spot-checks of registrations and carry out any necessary enforcement action. This will be clearly online as well. We want to ensure that the offence of facilitating a breach of the sales ban is specifically designed to capture online sales fora and, for instance, the use of traditional media, such as newspapers. Furthermore, Clause 34 ensures that we can charge a particular person within a corporation responsible for a breach so people cannot hide behind their company.

There was another point made by the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, and my noble friend Lord Selkirk. I have seen the programmes that my noble friend’s kinsman, and his daughter Saba Douglas-Hamilton, have produced. We owe them a profound debt of gratitude for what they have done to highlight the nature of elephants and how we can better protect them.

We also need to take the opportunity to acknowledge the people who have died because of seeking to prohibit the poachers from doing their dreadful deeds. Let us remember that, when we are talking about these objects, we are talking about human beings and animals that have died because of this, and I think that is the perspective in which we should look at it.

Clearly, we do not want to make unnecessarily draconian pieces of legislation; that is why the defence of ignorance is there to be proportionate so that the standards used determine whether someone has acted reasonably, and it will clearly depend on the circumstances of the accused.

Also, we want to make it clear—I paraphrase because my notes are not quite in order—that the whole point about having civil and criminal sanctions is precisely because we realise this is a new piece of legislation, and we understand that there will be different elements of criminality in terms of the sorts of gangs, organised crime, and billions that are involved. Regarding the amount of the fine that my noble friend Lord De Mauley referred to and the five years that my noble friend Lord Crathorne talked about, this is not about the person who has, by some mistake and completely with ignorance, sought to put a piece on the market. This is precisely because we need to get at the organised gangs who, in the end, want to receive the ivory from wherever it may be. This is why we have sought in our package—and, yes, it is a package and it is a balance—to make sure that civil sanctions and criminal penalties are done properly through the police, where that is required.

I say to my noble friend Lord Inglewood and the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, that I am absolutely seized of the fact that we want the registration system to be as bureaucracy-free and straightforward as possible. That is why we were working on an IT system that will not be burdensome and that—as it is based on a cost-recovery basis—is intended to be small. We want to have this non-bureaucratic system. We will also run an awareness campaign to ensure that potential buyers and sellers understand what is required. Again, this is intended to give safety and security to the seller and the buyer. That is the whole purpose. We are absolutely clear that the purpose of this legislation is to stop the demand in ivory, with certain exemptions. That is why it will be rigorous, but the registration for the first three exemptions will be through means which we think are not bureaucratic or burdensome. I shall write to my noble friend Lord Crathorne on his queries. However, I should say now that there are distinct reasons for the particular dates that we chose. It is 2018 now, so we thought that 100 years ago—1918—was a suitable choice.

The noble Lord, Lord St John of Bletso, referred to a guide to the Bill’s application. The Government will publish guidance on various aspects of the Bill to ensure it is implemented effectively. My noble friend Lord Selkirk asked whether enforcement will be adequate and exemptions not exploited. We will ensure that they are robust—they have to be, because that will underpin the success and effectiveness of the ban. I give credit to the police, the National Wildlife Crime Unit and the Border Force for what they have done to date in tackling this abhorrent crime. Our proposals will go further than the current regime. We will also nominate a regulator to enforce this ban, alongside the police and Border Force.

The noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, asked about the rarest and most important items. We intend this to be applied on a narrow strata of items considered, on the advice of expert assessors, to be of outstandingly high artistic, cultural and historical value. I agree with my noble friend Lord Crathorne that this is subjective but that is why we are asking experts to do that exemption, which we think is valid and is the right way forward. We did not think that a total ban was the right thing for these objects. We reached that position because we thought that this was a sensible arrangement. We therefore will be looking to experts to help us.

There were a number of questions about music and musicians. Owners of instruments containing ivory will need to register their instruments only if they wish to sell them or to engage in other commercial activities, such as hiring them out. Musicians wishing to take their instruments overseas for concert tours will not require registration, but must adhere to existing CITES regulations. My officials have received a copy of the Musicians’ Union briefings and will be happy to respond in writing or to meet it. The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley of Knighton, mentioned Professor Jonathan Freeman-Attwood. I have to declare an interest in that he played at my wedding, so I know the professor rather well. But regarding this exemption, Paul McManus of the Music Industries Association has said,

“we are extraordinarily grateful that this exemption has been considered at all”.—[Official Report, Commons, Ivory Bill Committee, 12/6/18; col. 49.]

We have gone as far as we can.

I am obviously very clear and conscious of what the noble Baroness, Lady Quin, said about the Northumbrian pipes. I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch. I would obviously always be happy to see the noble Baroness, Lady Quin, but we have these exemptions and we have got as far as we have with them. I will obviously meet her but we have had to find some definitions for these exemptions.

[Baroness Quin]

I hope that the Minister will at least listen to representations from the pipers but, to reinforce the statement that I made, they bought their instruments not because of ivory but because they were good to play. In that sense, it is not the same as people buying objects because they think that ivory is valuable.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

Yes, I understand the noble Baroness’s point. I think that I have explained the position that we are in, but I will of course meet with her.

The noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, referred to museums. Accredited museums will be exempt from the ban. This will allow them to purchase, loan or exchange ivory items. I am also happy to meet him to discuss insurance.

A number of noble Lords mentioned funding, including the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester. We wholly believe that the regulator and law enforcement agencies need sufficient funding to tackle wildlife crime. Defra will consider longer-term funding as part of the normal spending review process over the coming year. The noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, asked whether the agencies have sufficient powers under the Customs and Excise Act and the Proceeds of Crime Act. The Bill does not change the scope or reach of the legislation conferring powers for the purpose of customs checks on international trade and divesting criminals of the proceeds of crime. These powers are available, where applicable, against unlawful dealings in ivory items.

My noble friend Lord Lingfield mentioned the process for rarest and most important items—RMI, as I will describe it. We are working with experts at a number of institutions and have no expectation that this process will take a long time. My noble friend Lord Carrington of Fulham expressed concern about high registration fees. We do not intend these to be on anything other than a cost-recovery basis. My noble friends Lord Crathorne and Lord Carrington referred to museum quality. Yes, I agree that it is subjective but we have been working to get the advice of the country’s foremost experts, so I hope my noble friend Lord Cormack and others will see that we are sincerely trying to ensure that all these items are within the exemption, as they should be.

My noble friends Lord Attlee and Lord Carrington asked about inheritance tax and my noble friend Lady Rawlings referred to other taxation. Once the ban comes into force, prohibited items will be subject to nil value for inheritance tax purposes. Items subject to exemptions will still have a market value and may therefore be subject to inheritance tax. Indeed, we are aware that there may be a loss to the Exchequer, but we believe that the objects of this legislation far outweigh that loss.

A number of points were made about enforcement powers. I would be very happy to meet my noble friend Lord Inglewood, because there are points that I would like to discuss with him. On more spending on conservation, I have already mentioned it in another regard, but my noble friend Lady Chalker and the noble Lord, Lord St John of Bletso, raised this. We are doing more, but I will write on that.

I have sought to refer to all questions, but I will write more fully. My noble friend the Whip will not be pleased with me, but I am most grateful for all contributions. I will study Hansard very carefully and will write fully, but at this stage I ask noble Lords to give the Bill a Second Reading.

European Union: Environmental Policy

Baroness Quin Excerpts

Monday 12th December 2016 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Baroness Quin]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what are their current priorities concerning United Kingdom participation in the development and implementation of European Union environmental policy.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Gardiner of Kimble) (Con)]

My Lords, until exit negotiations are concluded, the UK remains a full member of the European Union and the Government will continue to negotiate, implement and apply EU environmental legislation. We aim to be the first generation to leave the natural environment in a better state than we found it. Whatever the new relationship, we will work closely with countries and institutions in the EU and beyond to achieve our shared environmental goals.

[Baroness Quin (Lab)]

My Lords, a European Union environment policy promoting improved air and water quality and higher standards generally has been a positive area of European action and one where the UK has often been proactive. Will the Minister give us more clues about whether the Government will continue with this action post Brexit? Will he tell us when his own department’s environment framework will be published as it is already overdue? How does he propose to ensure continued British influence and involvement in an area of policy so important to our citizens?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, the noble Baroness is right. This country has been at the forefront of global environmental initiatives—indeed, that was the case before we became members of the EU—and many of the challenges do not respect national borders, so co-operation with our friends within the EU and globally will remain of utmost importance. The UK is a party to about 30 multilateral environment agreements in its own right. The environment framework will, I hope, be published shortly, and will give an opportunity in the consultation process for everyone to play their part. Whether we are talking about invasive species, biosecurity, air quality or marine conservation, we want to work with our partners very closely.

Flooding: Defence Programme

Baroness Quin Excerpts

Thursday 1st November 2012 Lords Chamber

Tabled By

[Baroness Quin]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they have plans to reassess the flood defence programme.

[Lord Beecham]

In the absence of my noble friend Lady Quin, and at her request, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in her name on the Order Paper.

Agriculture: Global Food Security

Baroness Quin Excerpts

Thursday 12th May 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Quin]

My Lords, like everyone else, I welcome this debate and I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Byford, on securing it. I think she will agree that it follows well on previous debates in the House, such as the one a few months ago on the reform of the common agricultural policy, and more recently our debate on the report produced by the committee chaired by my noble friend Lord Carter of Coles on EU agriculture and forestry in the context of the important business of adapting to climate change. Indeed, the debate also follows well on previous debates initiated by the noble Baroness, and I too pay tribute to her assiduity and the knowledge that she displays in such debates. Some time ago she initiated a debate on the Royal Society report, Reaping the Benefits, in which she rightly made great play of the contribution that British agriculture can make to the future.

As the noble Earl, Lord Arran, said, we have benefited from a great deal of the personal experience of Members who have talked about their involvement in a variety of agricultural sectors and regions. Those range from arid Essex, as described by the noble Lord, Lord Dixon-Smith, to the slightly less arid Northern Ireland, as described by his neighbour on the Benches, the noble Lord, Lord Lyell. Reference was made to many agricultural sectors, whether they be arable, livestock, dairy or the egg industry, which was mentioned in some detail by the noble Earl, Lord Shrewsbury and Waterford. There has been a lot of consensus around the themes that have arisen in the course of the debate, not only on the problems and challenges but on the opportunities for British agriculture in the years to come.

I also detect a lot of continuity between the approach of the coalition Government and that of the previous Government to these issues. In 2010, the Labour Government produced a food strategy that, in its detail, shows a lot of continuity with the pronouncements made by the coalition on its food strategy for the future. As the background briefing for the debate stresses, including the useful note from the House of Commons Library, UK food security is structured around six themes, which were outlined by the previous Government and confirmed by this Government: global availability, global resource sustainability, UK availability and access, UK food chain resilience, food security at the household level, and confidence in the safety of our food supply.

Not surprisingly too during the course of the debate, there has been a lot of consensus around the huge challenges that we face in feeding the world and tackling climate change. Mention was made of the 1 billion people in the world who actually suffer hunger, and another 1 billion who, while not technically starving, suffer from malnutrition and undernutrition in many ways. As the noble Earl, Lord Sandwich, pointed out, and as the noble Lord, Lord Marlesford, echoed, there is also the rather grotesque contrast with the 1 billion people in the world who are claimed to overconsume, leading to the problem of obesity, which was referred to by several speakers. Another important stimulus for the debate was the report of the Foresight project published in January this year, entitled, The Future of Food and Farming: Challenges and Choices for Global Sustainability. In the words of the Ministers’ preface, the report,

“makes a strong case for governments, the private sector and civil society to continue to prioritise global food security, sustainable agricultural production and fisheries, reform of trade and subsidy, waste reduction and sustainable consumption”.

All speakers have referred, as does the debate as a whole, to the issue of food security. Several speakers rightly made the point that this is not the same as food self-sufficiency. The noble Baroness, Lady Miller, said that we are not pulling up the drawbridge and retreating into isolation. That would be impractical and wrong, as speakers pointed out. Food security involves many things as well as production. It certainly involves such things as supply routes, port infrastructure, supply chains and transport policy. As one of the Library notes in the information pack for this debate points out, food security is closely related to energy security—again, a point to which the noble Baroness, Lady Miller, referred.

Given, therefore, that when we talk about food security we talk about several different interests across government, co-ordination across government on this issue is very important. Obviously Defra has an important role to play, but so have DfID and the Foreign and Commonwealth Office in our relations with other countries, and developing countries in particular; the Department for Transport; the Department for Education and higher education in training and research; BIS; the Department of Energy and Climate Change; and, indeed, the Treasury. Could the Minister tell us when he replies what discussions have taken place across government on these issues? What mechanisms exist to take the co-ordination forward for the future? This is something that the Government need to concentrate on.

It would not make sense to talk about these issues simply in the context of the UK. Not surprisingly, for this reason the debate has had a strong international focus as well. I welcome that. For a start, we are part of the European Union. Reform of the CAP, which is so vital in this area, is a very important issue for the future. A briefing prepared for us by the CLA, which contained many excellent points, stresses the importance of the EU for many aspects of this debate. That means not only the CAP but external trade policy, food health policy, large areas of environment policy and areas of research policy.

On CAP reform, my noble friend Lord Carter of Coles rightly referred to some of the choices that Europe has to make for the future and some of the challenges that it will have to face up to if reform of the CAP is to make economic sense and make sense to the general public who, after all, support that policy through their taxes. The Society of Biology has said:

“The CAP should achieve a balance between the economic, social and environmental benefits of agriculture”.

It also said:

“There should be no public subsidy without public goods”.

Certainly, the public will support spending in this area if they believe that clear environmental and other public goods will accrue as a result. To change the CAP in the way that many of us would like, the Government will have to build up allies within the EU context and take into account some of the changing attitudes—which, again, my noble friend Lord Carter of Coles mentioned—among EU countries that have traditionally perhaps been strong supporters of the CAP but are now starting to see things slightly differently.

We have a duty to promote free and fair world trade, as was mentioned by many Members in this debate, and to get the best possible relationship with developing countries. This includes transferring technology that could help those developing countries to increase their productivity. The noble Earl, Lord Sandwich, despite recognising the problems that exist, pointed out some positive sides and signs of hope in production, particularly in Africa.

We must also honour our international climate change responsibilities. In this respect, and thinking of some of the issues that were raised in the other place in agricultural questions this morning, I hope that the Government are still committed to mandatory carbon reporting. It would be good to get the Government’s reaction to that. The extreme weather events that have taken place also concerned many Members over the course of this debate. It is vital, therefore, that there are changes in water policy, for example.

Research was mentioned by virtually all Members in this debate. Time does not allow me to pick up on the many excellent points, but the message about the importance of research will come over very strongly to the Minister today. In that respect, I also say to the Minister who deals with higher education policy that it is somewhat concerning that, when we are trying to get new and well qualified people into agriculture, most of the universities with specific agricultural and farming courses are charging the highest tuition fees. Far from this being the exception, it now looks as though charging at the highest level will be the rule, particularly for students taking agricultural degrees.

I have run out of time but I shall say finally that this is my swan-song as the member of the Front Bench who deals with these issues. I am standing down from the Front Bench, and I take the opportunity to thank the Minister. We have not always agreed but there have been quite a large number of issues on which we have agreed. I thank him for his courtesy while I have fulfilled this role. Although I am neither a belted Earl nor a peasant farmer, to use the phrases of the noble Lord, Lord Selsdon, I will remain interested in and committed to the future of agriculture and our countryside. I wish my successor well. I conclude by thanking the noble Baroness for giving us the opportunity to discuss these issues today.

Oak Processionary Moth

Baroness Quin Excerpts

Wednesday 27th April 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, that is another question, but I agree that trees are good for us. That is why we want, if possible, to eradicate or contain the oak processionary moth so that our oaks can flourish.

[Baroness Quin]

My Lords, at the moment the problem has largely been limited to London, although I echo the concerns of the noble Baroness and the way in which she raised them. I understand that there has also been an outbreak in Pangbourne in Berkshire, which is worrying because of the number of oak trees found in the wider rural area of that part of the country. Can the Minister give us some reassurance that everything is being done to tackle that outbreak? Furthermore, on resources, given that the end of April and the beginning of May is the crucial time of year for effective spraying, can I again ask the Minister to assure us that the resources are available to undertake such spraying work at the present time?

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, of course I am aware of the outbreak in Pangbourne, which took place in 2010. It is too early to say whether we have eradicated the oak processionary moth because we cannot really talk about eradication until we have seen two years without any eggs or larvae around. We will report back in 2012 with the good news on that, if we have it. I shall repeat again what I said before: there are no problems with budgetary constraints in terms of fighting this problem.

Draft National Policy Statement for Waste Water

Baroness Quin Excerpts

Tuesday 5th April 2011 Grand Committee

[Baroness Quin]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his explanation of the draft national policy statement on waste water and for outlining the Government’s approach to it. As he said, we are dealing with something that is very important; this is essential for public health and for a clean environment, as it is expressed on the Defra website. When we consider that much of our infrastructure for waste water, and for our water supply generally, was established in the 19th century, we remember its importance in tackling some of the prevalent diseases in our urban populations at that time, such as typhoid and cholera. We are therefore dealing with something that is of vital interest to us all.

It is important that we meet our European and international obligations. The noble Lord, Lord Teverson, mentioned the importance of meeting our EU obligations, whether that is under the urban waste water treatment directive, the water framework directive, the habitats directive, and so on. He also mentioned the danger of infraction proceedings, and I echo his question to the Minister about that.

These issues are important with regard to climate change. A couple of weeks ago, on the Floor of the House, we had an interesting debate on a report on agriculture and climate change, in which a number of Members took part. We must think here about the possible greater pressure on the waste water system from greater climate variability, the possibility of more intense rainfall and so on, as well as the pressures as a result of urbanisation and population growth. These are important issues, and given that this is a draft statement, I hope that we will have the opportunity to come back to this in due course.

In responding for the Official Opposition, we are happy to endorse the broad approach to these issues taken by the Government, which seems similar to that taken by the previous Government. However, there are a number of questions and concerns about particular aspects, and I will raise some of those this afternoon.

First, I must express a certain amount of frustration, because I do not feel that I am as well prepared for this as I would have liked, partly because the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee of the House of Commons produced its report on the draft national policy statement only today. I have had a chance to read the report, but I have not had a chance to read the mountain of evidence submitted to the committee that would have been relevant to the debate today. With hindsight, the timing of this debate would have been better if we could have had it a couple of weeks hence, perhaps after the Easter Recess, rather than at this time. It has certainly been frustrating not being able to read all the evidence that was given to the House of Commons EFRA Committee.

I also found it quite difficult to get hold of the appraisal of sustainability. It was not in the Printed Paper Office. I tried to get it via the Defra website. I know the Minister has heard me complain mildly about the information on the website. Every time I tried to get the appraisal of sustainability, I was informed:

“Our website is changing and links will have changed … Our old website remains available for some time”.

In the end, I did not manage to get the appraisal of sustainability at all, although I have read some of what it contains via other sources.

The Minister also mentioned the consultation, which ended on 22 February, and the fact that the department is currently considering the responses raised in the consultation. Again, given the timing of this debate, it would have been good to have greater feedback from the Government about what issues the consultation had raised and how the Government propose to deal with them. However, since this is a draft statement, I hope there will be an opportunity to come back to some of these issues in due course.

In its report, the House of Commons committee said that it felt that the consultation process on the NPS could have been given a higher profile. It was disappointed that the rate and number of responses were not as great as it would have liked. I noted that Defra organised various drop-in events in relation to the consultation; I saw the dates of 31 January and 1 February. Both events were held in London. Could the Minister give us some report on how those events went? Were they simply about the draft national policy statement itself or, because they were in London, were they more specifically related to the two London projects, which are also dealt with in the NPS document?

A more fundamental point about the consultation that the department held was made in the report of the EFRA Committee in the other place. It said it felt that in some ways the consultation could not perhaps affect the outcome of the NPS. The point that relates to that in the EFRA Committee report is in paragraphs 67 and 68, which say that in two areas the NPS seems already to have adopted a hard and fast position. The report states:

“For example, the draft NPS states that it must be designated if the UK is to meet its obligations under”,

EU directives. Secondly,

“the draft NPS appears to offer a fait accompli in regard to the Thames Tunnel, citing it the ‘preferred infrastructure solution’”.

The committee therefore recommends:

“Defra should clarify in its response to this Report how it has taken into account responses to all aspects of its draft NPS consultation in order to fulfil the Government’s requirement that formal consultation should take place at a stage when there is scope to influence the policy outcome”.

I would be interested in the Minister’s reaction to that if that is possible today. I appreciate that the Government, too, have only just been confronted with the committee’s report. Therefore, I am trying not to be unreasonable in my expectations. Presumably, however, these are issues to which the Government have given some thought.

Another thing that was raised by the EFRA Committee, and which I was also keen to raise, was the format of the NPS document itself. I was puzzled when I first looked at it. Half seemed to be a generic document, relating to the general principles governing such projects, and the other half related to two specific projects, both in London. The EFRA Committee has made a recommendation that the format be different; it would prefer a generic document, with back-up information relating to specific projects that could be contained in an annexe. The committee’s report makes the fair point that there is a lot to do with the two specific projects that does not relate to the overall objectives in the generic document, and that has little to do with it but a lot to do with very specific locational issues.

The noble Lord, Lord Teverson, raised another issue that the committee was concerned about—that, under the Planning Act 2008, waste water transfer schemes are not included. Given their importance, the committee suggests that the Government should rectify that and amend the 2008 Act. I wonder whether the Minister is in a position to comment on that.

I have some sympathy with another point that the committee made—that, even in the generic section of the NPS rather than the section that deals with the two London schemes, there is a danger of falling between two stools, and that the section is neither a succinct checklist for decision-makers nor a fully descriptive resource. Given the wide-ranging nature of the issue and the fact that so many organisations and other initiatives are involved, I totally accept that it is difficult to cover everything. However, the committee made the fair point that there needs to be clearer signposting and cross-referencing in the generic part of the report, to give people more comprehensive information or at least to tell them where such information can be found.

The committee also feels that the Government should give more details about the possible alternatives to these big infrastructure schemes, particularly through the sustainable drainage systems approach, which has the most wonderful acronym—SuDS. The use of SuDS and how they might mitigate some of the problems that we are dealing with is important, and it would be useful it the Minister had any comment on that part of the EFRA Committee report or the alternatives to such major schemes generally.

The overall feeling is that the London schemes are necessary but that they raise problems in connection with particular sites and in some of the details. My understanding is that the Thames Tunnel was originally costed at £2 billion and is set to rise to £3.6 billion. Could the reasons for that be forthcoming?

The consultation procedure has probably been better and more detailed in relation to the two London schemes than to the draft NPS. That is probably not surprising in a way, because the draft NPS deals largely with general principles, whereas the two London schemes affect specific neighbourhoods and large numbers of population. For that reason, it is not surprising that there is a great deal of consultation; I commend the consultation process that has taken place, which is not yet finished—I understand that a second stage will begin in the autumn. However, we have seen a considerable number of signatures; the Evening Standard reported last week that there were 10,000 signatures objecting to parts of the Thames Tunnel scheme. There have been some high-profile objectors, including Helen Mirren and David Bellamy objecting to parts of the Rotherhithe and Wapping sections of the tunnel, including the King’s Stairs Gardens. An important point was raised in relation to that park, which is that the objectors feel that there are alternative brownfield sites so there is no need for the use of any greenfield site. That is an important principle, which we are normally very keen on. If the Minister is able to comment on that, that would also be very useful. It is accepted that the main adverse effects of the schemes are likely to be restricted to the construction period, but I do not know if the Minister has information on concerns regarding the longer term effects of the two schemes that are included here.

On a completely separate issue, there is concern about the planning process, as mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Dixon-Smith, in terms of speed, efficiency and the provision of certainty for potential investors. That is an important aspect and although I realise that it is difficult to reconcile all these different demands, they are important elements that need to be considered. I note that the regulations on the transfer of private sewers to water companies have not yet been brought forward, even though the new system is supposed to be in force by October. Although that it is not dealt with specifically in the NPS, does the Minister have any information as to when these regulations are likely to be forthcoming and, if not, could he write to me to let me know?

My final question relates to another point that the noble Lord, Lord Dixon-Smith, raised, which was the threshold for these schemes. Is this likely to be looked at again or, if not—I think that the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, also made this point—how frequent are such schemes likely to be in future? Is this likely to be limited to large urban areas? It is perhaps understandable that the first two are in London, the largest conurbation of all, but it would be useful to at least get some idea about the Government’s thinking on the scale of this.

I raise these questions not in opposition to the draft NPS on waste, but as a way of trying to echo some of the concerns expressed in another place about ways in which it could be improved and to make sure that, as this is a matter of such importance to the country as a whole, we will be able to come forward with the best possible system to meet our needs.