Finance (No. 3) Bill

Baroness Quin Excerpts

2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords & 3rd reading (Hansard): House of Lords & Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords & Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords
Thursday 7th February 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Quin (Lab)]

My Lords, I am pleased to take part in the debate, although it must be said that the wider context, described so well by my noble friend Lord Tunnicliffe, is dramatic and alarming.

Brexit hangs like a pall over everything, not least over this Budget and the previous two. To fund Brexit, £3 billion was announced in the 2017 Budget and £1.5 billion in the previous Budget. The Chancellor warned that austerity would continue for five more years if Britain leaves the European Union with no deal and that an emergency Budget would be needed in that situation. Given this, I implore the Government to take no deal off the table—particularly given the views of industry and trade unions, as well as the clear views expressed through Motions passed in this House and the passing of the Spelman/Dromey amendment in the other place. Like my noble friend Lord Tunnicliffe, I welcome the fact that during the course of its Budget deliberations, the Commons passed the amendment tabled by Yvette Cooper. Obviously, that is now on the record.

However, I want today to raise a narrow specific point of which I gave the noble Lord, Lord Bates, prior notice, having met him earlier this week to raise my concerns. Obviously, I know that we in this House cannot amend the Budget, but by raising this issue I hope that Ministers will look sympathetically on ways to resolve it. I am pretty confident that if the full implications had been known earlier, it would have been raised by some honourable Members in the other place.

The issue relates to the museums and galleries exhibition tax relief brought in by the Government. Overall, it is a good scheme, but the way it is written is also a good example of unintended consequences. Before I continue, I declare a relevant interest in the register as the chair of the strategic board of Tyne & Wear Archives & Museums, one of our major regional arts organisations. I am proud to be associated with such an innovative and entrepreneurial organisation. It does great work in Tyneside schools in some of our least well-off areas, and has an excellent management team with whom it is an absolute pleasure to work. In accordance with the government-commissioned Mendoza review on the functioning of museums, and very much in accordance with the Government’s express wish to see museums form partnerships with other organisations, Tyne & Wear Archives & Museums set up TWAM Enterprises to manage exhibitions. The organisation is funded by four Tyneside local authorities, with Newcastle University operating as a charity.

However, in adopting this structure, TWAM has found itself, much to its surprise, ineligible for museums exhibition tax relief. I should stress that TWAM had changed its structure before the tax relief regulations came into effect. It had done so because it was a good thing to do and because it felt that that would accord with government priorities. Ironically, TWAM took part in the government consultation which took place before the museums exhibition tax relief regulations were brought in. As the Minister knows, but perhaps the House as a whole does not, the regulations stated that for an organisation to benefit, it had to be funded either by a local authority or by a charity. Unfortunately for TWAM, it was funded by both a local authority and a charity. In some ways you could say that it was doubly eligible for tax relief, but so far it has been deemed ineligible for such relief.

We have had discussions with officials from the Treasury and HMRC, and DCMS, which is obviously concerned about this issue. They were all were sympathetic when we raised a number of possibilities in our meetings, such as using the Interpretation Act 1978, which I certainly was not familiar with before this issue was raised. The Act gives guidance on interpreting how legislation should be implemented:

“In any Act, unless the contrary intention appears … words in the singular include the plural”.


We wondered whether that might mean that, given that TWAM is funded by a local authority and a charity, it could be covered by the 1978 Act.

Incidentally, as far as I am aware, no other organisation has inadvertently fallen foul of the regulations in the way Tyne & Wear Archives & Museums has. However, if the regulations are unamended, that might inhibit other museums in forming the kind of partnerships they have said they are in favour of. That point needs to be borne in mind. Certainly, this seems an absurd situation that is contrary to common sense.

It could be said that TWAM should change its structure again. However, that would be a time-consuming and costly process, involving legal advice and so forth. Given that TWAM is funded by public money, it seems crazy to have to spend that money on changing its structure when TWAM clearly fulfils the spirit—if not the actual letter—of the regulations. To have to do that at a financially challenging time is very hard. I do not want to widen the argument to the whole issue of local government finance, but since 2010 TWAM has seen a 60% reduction in funding from local authorities. It is because the organisation is innovative and recognised as such by the Arts Council that it has continued to build on the excellent service it provides to our area.

In conclusion, I know that the Minister is fully aware of the importance of museums and the cultural sector generally to the north-east economy. He knows too how successfully our museums have engaged with the different communities in the area. I am sure that he does not want difficulties to be imposed on museums, so I hope he will be able to respond positively to my remarks.

Brexit: Security

Baroness Quin Excerpts

Tuesday 29th January 2019 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Baroness Quin]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what discussions ministers from the Home Office and the Ministry for Justice have had with the heads of police forces about security issues relating to Brexit.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)]

My Lords, Ministers are in continued dialogue with a range of operational partners on policing and security co-operation. The Government are preparing for all eventualities, and this includes continuing to work closely with our operational partners on EU exit planning.

[Baroness Quin (Lab)]

My Lords, while the economic consequences of a no-deal Brexit are dominating the headlines, is it not the case that the consequences of no deal on vital security co-operation with the European Union are equally alarming? Did the Minister see the item in the Belfast Telegraph yesterday about the retiring chief constable there who felt that he was in the dark over Brexit? Surely, he and other police chiefs around the UK need to be fully involved in preparing the vital future security relationship with the European Union.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I totally agree with the noble Baroness and, to that end, we had a useful debate on that subject last week. For her information, at his Home Affairs Select Committee appearance, Deputy Assistant Commissioner Richard Martin, who is the Brexit lead for the National Police Chiefs’ Council, confirmed regarding policing:

“If we crash out on 29 March, we will have the team up. We will have everything written. We will have the whole system and the network developed, and we will be there, sitting on the shoulders of forces across the country from a policing point of view to help them through what that looks like. We will be fully prepared”.

Brexit: Economic Analysis of Various Scenarios

Baroness Quin Excerpts

Wednesday 28th November 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bates]

The analysis shows a range of possible outcomes because we do not know, at this stage, what the outcome will be of the negotiations. We have set out a proposal in the White Paper that is backed up by the political declaration, and we want to see that achieved. To help the House and indeed others to prepare for that, we have provided for a whole range of scenarios. That includes sensitivity analysis, which would allow for just the point the noble Baroness has highlighted—about different types of trade outcomes—to be factored in before people come to a conclusion.

[Baroness Quin (Lab)]

My Lords, is it not clear from what the Minister has said that what is in front of us is not delivering exactly the same benefits, which is what we were promised by the former Brexit Secretary in the other place? What discussions have the Government had with the City of London about the exclusion of services? The figures seem to show that the economy of London—which, it was previously thought, would do rather well out of this situation—is being quite badly affected because of the exclusion of the service sector which is so important to our economy.

[Lord Bates]

I can confirm that the economic analysis being undertaken is for the economy as a whole—goods and services—and that is reflected in the regional pages. Further analysis by the Bank of England, which we believe will be released in about 40 minutes’ time, will give another view that will be helpful to Parliament and to others who wish to see what the impact would be. But we are absolutely confident that the deal as presented represents the best opportunity for this country, and that is backed up by the analysis.

Brexit: Economic Effects

Baroness Quin Excerpts

Wednesday 21st November 2018 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Baroness Quin]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what recent discussions they have had with the Chambers of Commerce and Confederation of British Industry representatives in the United Kingdom’s regions and nations about the economic effects of Brexit.

[The Minister of State, Department for International Development (Lord Bates) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government continue to engage with business groups, including the CBI and the British Chambers of Commerce, on the economic effects of EU exit across the UK’s regions. We remain committed to ensuring that the views of business are reflected in our approach to Brexit, and businesses have responded positively to the draft of the withdrawal agreement published last week.

[Baroness Quin (Lab)]

My Lords, the Government announced in the other place on Monday that they would publish an economic and fiscal analysis of the effects of Brexit. In this House the Minister and his ministerial colleague, the noble Lord, Lord Callanan, have also said that there will be updated impact assessments of the effects of Brexit on our regions and nations. In view of the Prime Minister’s proposed deal, and also of the continuing concerns of business, can the Minister give us some outline of the timetable for publishing this additional information?

Brexit: Economic Effect

Baroness Quin Excerpts

Thursday 18th October 2018 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Baroness Quin]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to their assessments of the economic impact of Brexit made available in February, what analysis they have made of the economic effect of Brexit on (1) North East England, (2) other regions of England, and (3) Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.

[The Minister of State, Department for International Development (Lord Bates) (Con)]

My Lords, we have committed to ensure that Parliament is presented with the appropriate analysis to make an informed decision when we bring forward the vote on a final deal. At this stage of the negotiation it would not be practical or appropriate to set out the details of exactly how the Government will analyse that final deal.

[Baroness Quin (Lab)]

My Lords, when I last raised this question about the impact assessments and the huge concern that there had been among businesses in the north-east about them, the noble Lord, Lord Callanan, said that further analyses would be undertaken and completed by the time a deal with Brussels had been finalised. Can the Minister give the House and Parliament an assurance that those final impact assessments will be made available both to parliamentarians and to the public so that the economic consequences for our nations and regions can be taken fully into account before any votes are taken in Parliament on this issue?

[Lord Bates]

I am very happy to reiterate that commitment which was given to ensure that, before the meaningful vote—and, indeed, the debate in your Lordships’ House—takes place, there will be an appropriate level of analysis to look at the consequences of the deal. Of course, we cannot set that out in detail now, because we do not know what the shape of that deal will be, but when it comes, that analysis will be made so that people can make an informed decision.

Brexit: Costs

Baroness Quin Excerpts

Wednesday 29th November 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bates]

There are assets on the balance sheet of the European Commission and, be they buildings, satellites or anything else, they will be part of the assets factored in to a fair and reasonable settlement for the United Kingdom.

[Baroness Quin (Lab)]

My Lords, in honouring our commitments—I very much welcome the fact that we will honour our commitments—will the Government explain to Parliament and the wider public the many positive programmes that this money will go towards and on which we hope we will be able to co-operate with the European Union in future? To pick up on the point made by my noble friend Lord Anderson, can we be assured that no more statements such as that about the EU whistling for its money will be uttered from Government Benches?

[Lord Bates]

Certainly, in relation to the ongoing programmes and relationships we are having, once the negotiations have been completed, it is important that we ensure that the British taxpayer understands the importance and value of those ongoing relationships as part of the wider settlement.

Syria: Humanitarian Aid

Baroness Quin Excerpts

Monday 21st October 2013 Lords Chamber

Tabled by

[Baroness Quin]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what discussions they have held with other governments about increasing humanitarian aid to Syrian refugees.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab)]

My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lady Quin, and at her request, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in her name on the Order Paper.

Arts and Culture: Economic Regeneration

Baroness Quin Excerpts

Tuesday 29th January 2013 Lords Chamber

Asked By

[Baroness Quin]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their policy on the future role of cultural projects and the arts in regional and economic regeneration.

[Baroness Quin]

My Lords, I welcome the opportunity to introduce this debate on a subject which I feel strongly about but which also has great topicality, given the cuts to arts budgets which are taking place, both nationally and in many regions and localities. These are, not surprisingly, the subject of widespread concern.

First of all, may I say what a pleasure it is that the Minister is replying to this debate? I have not previously had the chance to congratulate him publicly on his appointment but I now do so warmly. We have made common cause in the past on agricultural issues, not least in our concern for the survival of the red squirrel. Given that he will have to defend the Government’s record in the area we are discussing, I have a feeling that our former harmony might be temporarily dissonant—but I very much hope that that will, indeed, be only temporary. I am also delighted that my noble friend Lady Jones is on the Front Bench for the Opposition, as I know how much she cares about the issue being raised this evening.

I do not have any financial interests to declare but the register of interests does list that I am president of the Northumbrian Pipers’ Society, an important cultural organisation in the north-east which promotes the playing and appreciation of our own regional musical instrument. I have also for many years been a volunteer tourist guide for the great city of Newcastle upon Tyne and, perhaps most relevantly to this debate, I was also a Member of the other place representing Gateshead. The arts and culture have been hugely significant in that town’s economic regeneration but—through projects such as the “Angel of the North”, the Baltic art gallery, the Sage music complex and the award-winning Gateshead Millennium Bridge; this is not an exhaustive list—the benefits have also been felt throughout the whole of Tyneside, the north-east and the country. I feel hugely proud of Gateshead Council and the remarkable way that its members, many of whom come from a traditional industrial background, grasped early on the cultural agenda in the way that they did. I therefore take every opportunity to pay tribute to them and the way that they worked in partnership with other parts of the public and private sectors in the many projects that they pursued.

Indeed, given Gateshead’s record, it is frustrating that in the important Newcastle-Gateshead partnership of recent years, Gateshead’s achievements are often ascribed to Newcastle by those who do not come from the area. I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, as a former leader of Newcastle City Council, will understand my frustration, while none the less recognising, as we both do, how important the Gateshead-Newcastle partnership has been in recent years, and how it has promoted economic regeneration..

The wording of the Question for Short Debate speaks of the contribution of the arts to regional and economic regeneration more generally in order to bring in the wider national and UK dimensions to the subject. Many of us believe that the arts, culture and the creative industries are a crucial part of our national economy, and it is my contention this evening, therefore, that supporting the arts and cultural projects nationally and regionally has to be a vital part of our economic growth strategy and policies for national economic recovery.

In documentation produced by the Arts Council, it is pointed out that our creative economy, as a proportion of GDP, is the largest in the world. Our cultural sector accounts for nearly 70,000 businesses and contributes £28 billion each year to the UK economy. The creative industries provide 1.5 million jobs and our arts and culture attract millions of overseas tourists, helping to promote Britain as a world hub of creative talent. However, if arts and culture are important to our economy nationally, they are also vital to our regions and localities and have played a crucial part in the economic successes of many towns and cities in recent years. Examples that come to mind include Liverpool, Birmingham, Bradford, Bristol and east London. Cultural projects and initiatives have also revitalised and reversed the decline of some of our traditional seaside resorts such as Folkestone and Margate, where the Turner Contemporary has attracted approaching half a million visitors since it opened in 2011. In the north-east, the Sage Gateshead has contributed £146 million to the north-east economy since it opened and currently supports 660 or more jobs. In 2011, the entries for the Turner Prize that were exhibited in the Baltic art gallery attracted a record number of visitors and had a positive economic effect. Overall, culture and the arts have contributed to a dramatic growth in the tourist industry in the north-east—a growth rate that has by far outperformed any other sector and brought our tourism industry right into the economic mainstream.

There is no doubt that arts and culture have made a great contribution nationally and locally in recent years. However, there is now considerable concern about the future arising from the Government’s current approach. I, like my party, am concerned that with the arts, as with the rest of the economy—as we have been discussing this afternoon—the cuts are too deep and too fast. To begin with, the Arts Council itself has had its budget cut by 30% since 2010. While I applaud the Arts Council in its work and recognise that, in implementing these reductions, it has sought to protect the artistic front line—by which we mean support for cultural projects and productions in some of the least well-off parts of our country—none the less, cuts of the order demanded now and for the future, on top of the economies already made, threaten the front line in my view. This is a view that is shared by many in the cultural sector both nationally and regionally.

My noble friend Lord Beecham had a Written Question on arts funding which was answered by the noble Viscount, Lord Younger, on 8 January, and I would like to ask the Minister some questions about it. My noble friend asked what proportion of central government funding for the arts in 2011-12 and 2012-13 was for capital funding, and what proportion was for revenue funding. The Answer surprisingly began by saying that the Government were unable to provide information on potential funding for the arts across central government because they did not hold the information centrally; it said that the information could be provided only “at disproportionate cost”. This begs the question: if central government spending plans are not held centrally, where are they held? The Answer gave information about the reduction in Arts Council funding and about DCMS funding in addition to Arts Council funding. This showed that the additional funding was being reduced overall from £2.198 million to £1.025 million and that for this year, 2013, no capital funding was envisaged at all in that part of the DCMS budget. Can the Minister explain this?

The Government have claimed that philanthropic giving might help fill the funding gap. The Culture Secretary herself has expressed hopes that this might double over the coming years. However, the figures that I have seen—and I do not know whether the Minister can confirm them—which were released in 2011, show a reduction in corporate giving of 11% and a reduction in individual giving of 4%. Neither of these figures augurs well for the future. Also on this question, I refer the Minister to comments from Sir Nicholas Hytner, director of the National Theatre, who, writing in the Observer, said that,

“80% of philanthropic giving to the arts benefits London, and almost invariably private funding follows public funding”.

If Sir Nicholas is right—and he obviously speaks from great experience—then charitable giving will not fill the gap and will not, in any case, help the regions, about which I will now speak further.

If the reductions in funding at national level are causing concern then the situation is even worse at regional level. As we know, the local government spending review was debated in your Lordships’ House on 17 January. Considerable concern was expressed about the cuts that local authorities were facing overall. The cuts—the result of the squeeze in local government spending—have already been felt in the arts and culture sector, but the likely effect of current and future cuts are even worse. It is not that local authorities want to cut back spending on arts and culture or that they think that such money is unimportant, but they have their overriding responsibility to continue providing services such as social care and child protection, waste collection and all the other main areas of service which local authorities have an overriding duty to provide.

I express my sympathy with councils such as Newcastle in the current situation. I think that it really does find itself between a rock and hard place—although I note that the council is continuing to discuss ways forward with arts organisation locally. Instead of cutting Newcastle’s money further, I hope that the Government will work with the city, and with other cities in a similar situation, to ensure that arts spending is not reduced in the way that is currently proposed in the consultation that Newcastle City Council has embarked on. What I say about Newcastle also applies, surprisingly, to places like Westminster, where they are also suggesting a total cut in the arts budget.

Unfortunately, I am rapidly running out of time. I shall conclude by referring to the coalition Government’s recent mid-term review. It is both regrettable and astonishing that the creative industries and culture and the arts have played so little a part in the review. In particular, no goals seem to be set by the Government for arts and culture for the next two years. Of the five commitments that are mentioned by DCMS in the mid-term review document, not one of them mentions culture or the arts. I wonder how the Government can explain that.

It seems to me that the Government need to demonstrate through new words and deeds that the arts, culture and the creative industries are indeed an indispensable part of this country’s growth strategy and that such a growth strategy should extend to all parts of the country. Nothing less than a fundamental change of heart by the Government will do in the face of the current crisis.

[Baroness Northover]

My Lords, I remind noble Lords that this is a time-limited debate. When the clock reaches 10, noble Lords have had their 10 minutes.

European Union Bill

Baroness Quin Excerpts

Tuesday 22nd March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Quin]

My Lords, it is a great pleasure to follow the entertaining and knowledgeable contribution of the noble Lord, Lord Kerr. In response to the exhortation by the noble Baroness a minute ago for brevity, I was tempted to say that I agree strongly with my noble friends Lord Dubs and Lord Anderson, the noble Lords, Lord Taverne and Lord Kerr, and others, and then just sit down. I hoped that I would receive some popularity points as a result. However, I would briefly like to add one or two thoughts.

My first objection to the Bill is on constitutional grounds. The Constitution Committee talks about the Bill breaking new ground in the UK constitution by its imposition of referendum requirements on such a large scale. Reading that, I was reminded of the earlier inquiry, in which I participated, by the Constitution Committee into referendums generally. The report published in April last year said, significantly:

“The balance of the evidence that we have heard leads us to the conclusion that there are significant drawbacks to the use of referendums. In particular, we regret the ad hoc manner in which referendums have been used, often as a tactical device, by the government of the day”.

I strongly agree with that statement in the Constitution Committee’s report.

In introducing the debate, the noble Lord, Lord Howell, said that voting had almost got into our weekly habits in the present day, particularly in relation to television programmes. With respect, a light-hearted vote on whether to keep the redoubtable Ann Widdecombe in “Strictly Come Dancing” is not really the same as referendums about Britain’s future, which should be better thought out than seems to be the case in the Bill. Nor am I simply making a party-political point in opposing this part of the Bill. I spoke against the idea of the European referendum that my party had decided to hold on the so-called European constitution and I did not like the referendum in the 1970s, which essentially seemed to have been called to get my party off the political hook at the time.

The Government are proposing referendums not just in the Bill but also via their localism agenda and in many other ways. We need to confront a choice here in whether we want to be essentially a representative democracy or a plebiscitary democracy. I would much prefer that we did not treat this subject lightly but tried to establish some common and cross-party rules about when and where referendums are an appropriate part of our political system. It may be that there would be cross-party agreement that they should be used in cases of fundamental constitutional reform, although that is not always easy to define. It is unwise to jettison our precious representative democracy and move down the plebiscitary road. The Bill makes a great mistake in the way that it tackles that issue. I also very much agreed with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Howe, when he decried the expression “referendum lock”. It is such a negative starting point for our relationship with the European Union and it seems to pander to the view that this is always a threat and never an opportunity, as I believe it can be.

My second objection to the Bill is on political grounds. It tries to pander to Euroscepticism, although, ironically, it does so significantly unsuccessfully, as we saw in the debates in the other place and, indeed, in the debate here today. Indeed, the Conservatives in particular have repeatedly made that mistake at European elections and by-elections, where they have not been the beneficiaries of pandering to Euroscepticism. That benefit has tended to go to UKIP and other political forces.

The Minister talked a lot about public opinion. Indeed, the noble Lord, Lord Pearson, was barracked in a lordly way when he referred to the media and the BBC. However, he was right; it is relevant to this debate. How the public get the message about Europe, if we are talking about reconnecting them to Europe, is an important aspect. The noble Lord was right to raise the issue, although I would raise it from a very different standpoint.

It is also very much the responsibility of Ministers to be positive about Europe. The noble Lord, Lord Maclennan, spoke about this when he said that very often Ministers after Council meetings declared that they had won famous battles—things were seen in terms of a battle rather than co-operation. When I was Europe Minister, I would often try to point out to people that in the three Councils that I attended—on home affairs, foreign and general affairs and agriculture—very often the meetings were harmonious. Decisions by voting were the exception rather than the rule and people worked very much towards a consensus. However, it was hard to get that positive message across in the media; a battle is much more newsworthy than good news about a harmonious European Council. While I accept to a certain extent that Ministers could have been more robust, it is difficult sometimes to get that positive message across, because of the old adage that the good news is not news, whereas bad news is intrinsically newsworthy.

I echo the point made by my noble friend Lord Anderson, who said that during his time as a constituency Member of Parliament he was struck by how little the issue of Europe was raised. That was certainly my experience, too, even when I was Europe Minister; indeed, as I had previously been an MEP, I had some profile among my constituents on European issues. Even now, knocking on the doors, as I and others in this Chamber do, I know that it is seldom raised as an issue in terms of the frantic Euroscepticism that seems to dominate so many parts of the media.

Slight reference was made to this earlier. While I have no objection to newspapers crusading if they want to on particular issues—although sometimes I wish that they would simply report the news rather than crusade about it—I must say that the screaming headline of the Daily Express on 11 February, “Britain in the EU: This must be the end”, had me completely mystified, particularly when I found out that it referred to prisoners’ votes and the European Court of Human Rights. The noble Lord, Lord Pearson, made an attempt at defending this by saying that in the recent treaty the EU as a whole had acceded to the European system of human rights, but we all know both that that system predates the EU and that the EU has absolutely no responsibility whatever for the decisions of the European Court of Human Rights. Presumably the Daily Express is knowledgeable enough to know that it does not have anything to do with the EU at all.

[Lord Dykes]

Further to that, does the noble Baroness acknowledge that, when an independent survey was commissioned for the last calendar year to check thoroughly and independently 125 banner headlines in the Daily Telegraph, the Daily Mail and the Daily Express about wicked things happening in Europe, it was found that not a single one was correct?

[Baroness Quin]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for making that point so effectively.

This Bill ends up by pleasing no one. It does not please the Opposition, as was clear from the elegant speech of my noble friend Lady Symons; it does not please most Conservatives who have spoken in this debate, I am pleased to say, or most Liberal Democrats. I look forward with some incredulity to the closing speech by the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, who was teased somewhat, but quite rightly, by the noble Lord, Lord Kerr. I have certainly heard those who are now Liberal Democrat Ministers in this House take a rather different view from that of their colleagues in the other place on the subject of referendums and be staunchly pro-European in a way that does not square with the contents of this Bill.

I hope that we manage some changes such as the sunset clause, which my noble friend mentioned, or some kind of limitations on the scope of using referendums. Fundamentally, however, I wish that we could go back to the drawing board to have a proper think about the role of referendums in our political system and a much more informed debate across the country about our European future.