Health Service Commissioner for England (Complaint Handling) Bill

Debate between Baroness Primarolo and David Nuttall

Friday 27th February 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mr Nuttall]

rose—

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Dawn Primarolo)]

I call Mr David Arbuthnot. I’m sorry—James.

Affordable Homes Bill

Debate between Baroness Primarolo and David Nuttall

Friday 5th September 2014 Commons Chamber

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Dawn Primarolo)]

Order. Mr Nuttall, you have been speaking for 35 minutes and you have said on numerous occasions how important it is to make progress through your speech. You are being incredibly generous in taking interventions, but perhaps you could be a little more selfish and get on with making your speech so that other Members can speak. Taking fewer interventions might help.

[Mr Nuttall]

I will be more selfish with the interventions I accept, Madam Deputy Speaker, but the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart) was not one I have in my speech, so I am grateful to him for making it.

The Government trebled support for discretionary housing payments so that funding for this year is £165 million. In 2013-14, £21 million of central Government funding was unspent by the end of the year. Almost two thirds—63%—of local authorities paid out less than their total discretionary housing payment allocation, and fewer than a quarter applied for a share of the £20 million that the Department for Work and Pensions held back in reserve. Discretionary housing payments exist to provide a safety net for vulnerable tenants, and they offer the best mechanism for local authorities to provide additional support as welfare payments are reformed, enabling them to respond on a case-by-case basis to those who need more assistance.

I appreciate that the hon. Member for St Ives ideally wants the spare room subsidy to be removed. He would like a return to the time before the measure was introduced, when taxpayers in my constituency had to contribute towards those living on benefits and enjoying accommodation that they themselves could only dream about. Clause 1 is seen by those who want to return to those days as a mere stepping stone towards the day when tenants can once more have the benefit of spare rooms at the expense of other hard-working taxpayers. We must strike a balance between the interests of taxpayers and the legitimate needs of welfare claimants, and I do not see the need to introduce the measures in clause 1 to achieve that balance.

Let me turn to clause 3, which has not received the attention it needs so far. Subsection (1) requires the Secretary of State to

“carry out a review of the availability of affordable homes and intermediate housing and produce and lay before Parliament a report which must set out the conclusions of the review.”

within 12 months of the Bill being enacted. We know from clause 7(2) that the Act would come into force

“at the end of the period of 3 months beginning with the day on which it is passed.”

Anyone reading clause 3 would assume that there must be an urgent need for a review, and that for some reason no information is available about the housing stock in this country, and certainly nothing on affordable housing. However, even the most cursory investigation of the subject reveals that our library shelves are simply groaning under the weight of reports and statistics on this matter. In fact, there are so many that—you will be pleased to know this, Madam Deputy Speaker—I will not even begin to list them, never mind quote from them all.

[Jacob Rees-Mogg]

Although one of life’s great pleasures is to ensure that Madam Deputy Speaker is happy, the rest of the House will be desperately disappointed if my hon. Friend does not elaborate on all those points.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Dawn Primarolo)]

Order. I am sure that the House can contain its disappointment and anxiety to progress this debate. I hope, Mr Nuttall, that you are making reasonable progress, and taking your own advice about making the remaining points in your speech so that others can participate in the debate.

[Mr Nuttall]

I will, indeed, Madam Deputy Speaker, restrict my comments.

The Department for Communities and Local Government publication “Affordable Housing Supply: April 2012 to March 2013”, issued on 21 November 2013, contains a wealth of statistics and information about the availability of affordable homes in England. It contains that much material that it is difficult to imagine what more could be wanted on the subject.

The principal body for delivery in the field is the Homes and Communities Agency. We are fortunate indeed that, only on Tuesday of this week, it issued its latest update—a statistical analysis with a wealth of facts and figures on affordable housing. Jonathan Walters, the HCA deputy director of strategy and performance, has said:

“The Statistical Data Return plays an important role in the HCA’s work as regulator, helping to identify the key issues for the sector and individual providers and to prioritise our regulatory engagement. The 2014 return shows that the sector has continued to grow, and sheds light on some important trends in a changing operating environment, including the growth of Affordable Rent”.

That is just a couple of the reports available on the topic—there are loads of others from charities, academics and pressure groups throughout the country—and I find it difficult to believe that there is any need whatever to carry out another piece of research.

I accept that the hon. Member for St Ives is entirely well meaning. No one would deny that his aims are entirely honourable. No one wants disabled people to be disadvantaged by legislation, but as I hope I have demonstrated, the Government have put in place the means to ensure that those most affected by the removal of the spare room subsidy are properly protected. I see no reason for a further report on affordable homes—there is no shortage of reports or statistics on the subject. The Government provide a wide array of schemes to help to stimulate the housing market. It is difficult to see what could come out of such a review, other than yet more schemes. For all those reasons, I oppose the Bill, and urge the House to vote against it on Second Reading.

Apprenticeships and Skills (Public Procurement Contracts) Bill

Debate between Baroness Primarolo and David Nuttall

Friday 1st November 2013 Commons Chamber

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

Order. This morning’s debate is not on the process of private Members’ Bills or its merits. There has been an exchange but I am sure that the hon. Member for Bury North (Mr Nuttall) now wishes to come back to his specific points on the Bill. That would help all of us.

[Mr Nuttall]

I was being dragged off there by the shadow Minister, but I will come back to the specific points that I wanted to make on the Bill.

The Bill is not new. In many respects, it mirrors the Apprenticeships and Skills (Public Procurement Contracts) Bill that was introduced in the first Session of this Parliament on 14 September 2010 by the hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne North (Catherine McKinnell). It is interesting that when that was introduced by way of a ten-minute rule Bill, the hon. Lady prayed in aid the Federation of Small Businesses, which my hon. Friend made clear now has serious concerns about this Bill. It is concerned that the Bill may harm the progress that has been made during the last three years. My hon. Friend made a good point.

I am sure that it was only the large number of hon. Members who wanted to support the hon. Lady’s Bill that stopped the hon. Member for Denton and Reddish being one of its supporters in 2010. But I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for introducing his Bill because it gives me and my hon. Friend an opportunity to make clear what has been, by any measure, one of the great success stories of the present Government.

The coalition programme for government said:

“We will seek ways to support the creation of apprenticeships, internships, work pairings, and college and workplace training places as part of our wider programme to get Britain working”.

It is worth noting at the outset what is meant by an apprenticeship. Basically, it is a paid job that incorporates both on-the-job and off-the-job training. When someone has completed an apprenticeship, they will have a nationally recognised qualification.

In response to the shadow Minister, I said that I had personal experience of this, and I do. Using the definition of an apprentice as someone who learns and earns at the same time, that is precisely what I did for 10 years after I left school. Rather than going to university, I joined a local firm of solicitors as a trainee legal executive, for which I was paid a wage. As my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley (Philip Davies) said, in the past being an apprentice often meant starting at the bottom, which is exactly what I did. I was one level up from the office junior, as I used to say at the time.

I then went out on day release to study in the afternoons and evenings for examinations under the auspices of the Institute of Legal Executives. As part and parcel of its training requirements, a person could not become a fellow until they had been employed for eight years, to ensure that they had a thorough and grounded knowledge of the processes. It was a nationally recognised qualification. I used it, along with the degree I studied for at the same time through correspondence from London university, to go on and work for two more years as an articled clerk, which is really just a different term for an apprentice solicitor, before qualifying as a solicitor.

The shadow Minister, having launched his personal attack on me and used a clever way to name my opponent at the next general election, has now left his place on the Front Bench, but I think it is fair to say that I have personal experience of working, learning and earning at the same time.

Public procurement contracts should be awarded on the basis of value for money. Even without the Bill, projects already promote apprenticeships. Crossrail will deliver over 400 new apprenticeships through its supply chain over the lifetime of the contract. All main works contractors will create one new apprenticeship, or the equivalent training opportunities, per £3 million of spend. Crossrail is working in partnership with the National Apprenticeship Service to support contractors in delivering the apprenticeship programme.

The National Apprenticeship Service was established in April 2009, under the previous Government. It has overall responsibility for apprenticeships in England. It promotes apprenticeships to employers and those seeking to take up an apprenticeship by providing support throughout the recruitment and training process. It maintains a national online apprenticeship vacancy system that allows employers to post vacancies and aspiring apprentices to search and apply for them. It is interesting that a requirement to post an apprenticeship through NAS is not included in clause 2.

Apprenticeships have changed considerably in recent decades. There are now over 200 different types of apprenticeship available across a variety of sectors, including: agriculture, horticulture and animal care; arts, media and publishing; business administration and law; construction, planning and the built environment; education and training; engineering and manufacturing technologies; health, public services and care; information and community technology; leisure, travel and tourism; and retail and commercial enterprise. Virtually no aspect of Government procurement does not fall within one of those sectors.

Each apprenticeship is made up of three elements: first, the national vocational qualification, which examines work-based skills; secondly, a technical certificate, which examines theoretical knowledge; and, thirdly, key skills, which examine transferable skills—for example, numeracy and literacy.

Apprenticeships can be studied at different qualification levels, starting with basic, intermediate level 2 apprenticeships, equivalent to A*-to-C GCSEs. Above those are advanced level 3 apprenticeships, equivalent to A-levels. Finally, there are higher level 4 apprenticeships, equivalent to a Business and Technology Educational Council professional diploma or a higher national certificate.

The rationale behind the Bill is well intentioned—to encourage more companies to provide apprenticeships. However, I am not convinced that the way to do that is by passing such legislation as this. The way to create a more skilled, better qualified work force is to have a growing economy in which companies can compete in the global marketplace. When they want a larger work force, they can train people using the apprenticeship route, working with the Government to set nationally recognised standards and with a training provider to which they can send their employees for off-the-job training. The companies themselves train them on the job and give them work.

The latest figures show that there has already been a significant increase in the numbers—

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

Order. I have been closely following what the hon. Gentleman has been saying. He has made his preliminary remarks and discussed extensively apprenticeships and the different definitions. Now I would like him to relate his comments to the Bill; he has been speaking for 32 minutes. This is not a general discussion about apprenticeships.

[Mr Nuttall]

Madam Deputy Speaker, I will. The rationale behind the Bill is that there are not enough apprenticeships; that can be the only reason for the Bill. However, official data show that last year more than 500,000 apprenticeships were created, which demonstrates one of my arguments for opposing the Bill.

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

Order. The hon. Gentleman has just put very succinctly his point about the Bill. I am asking him to make sure that all his comments refer to the Bill with the same clarity, rather than referring to every industry that might offer apprenticeships.

[Mr Nuttall]

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I will try to be as succinct as I can about the points I want to make about each of the clauses.

Clause 1 deals with apprenticeship requirements. It is the key clause because it states that when a public authority, defined as

“any body or person discharging functions of a public nature, including local authorities”,

prepares to issue a relevant contract—that is, one exceeding a total of £1 million—it must

“give due consideration to the relevant guidelines”.

We have not heard much about those relevant guidelines, but they were published by the Office of Government Commerce in 2009 in a document called “Promoting skills through public procurement”. It is a long document, but I want to refer to one particular sentence. The document goes through the process that a public body has to follow in granting a tender. It says of the stage at which the contract is granted:

“It is at this stage that public authorities should”—

I am afraid that the document is not written correctly because there is a word missing; I think it should say “should meet”—

“Regulation 39 of the Public Contracts Regulations 2006”,

which states

“that contracting authorities ‘may stipulate conditions relating to the performance of a public contract, provided that those conditions are compatible with Community law and are indicated in the contract notice and the contract documents or the contract documents’.”

Clearly, the 2006 regulations contained in the guidelines mentioned in clause 1 already give local authorities the power that the Bill seeks to give them in order to do all the things the hon. Gentleman would like them to do.

The second part of clause 1 would require that an authority “may specify” that

“a minimum proportion of the apprentices employed by the contractor are higher or advanced”

apprenticeship level. Because of the use of the word “may”, that could equally mean “may not specify”. The provision is therefore completely superfluous, irrelevant and unnecessary.

“Apprentice” is defined in clause 4 as having

“the meaning given in section 32 of the Apprenticeships, Skills, Children and Learning Act 2009”.

I thought that I would have a look at that to see what the definition is. It gives a definition not of “apprentice” but of “apprenticeship agreement”, which is not what one would expect from reading clause 4. If the Bill receives a Second Reading, that should be looked at, because clearly some clarification is needed regarding the definition of “apprentice”.

Clause 2 deals with the advertising of work force vacancies. In an intervention, the hon. Member for Denton and Reddish said, “You must be in favour of that”, but it is not as straightforward as that. In some cases, these contracts cover the whole country. Does he intend that, if the contractor needs to take on half a dozen extra workers as a result of getting the contract, they should advertise every single one of those vacancies across the whole country? That is what the clause would mean if taken literally, and of course one has to take it literally, so, if it is a national contract, that is what the contractor would have to do. As the hon. Gentleman himself admitted, this is the one clause that is mandatory, because it

“must require the contractor to…advertise all vacancies”

in local jobcentres.

Another aspect is that many local newspapers rely on job adverts to survive in this day and age. I wonder what they would think of this provision if they suddenly lost their local job adverts as a result. The first thing that many people do when they are looking for a job is to turn to the local paper.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Nuttall]

Any employer seeking to take on new apprentices or, indeed, new employees will want to cast their net as widely as possible. When I was an employer, we routinely advertised in the paper and at the jobcentre, because we wanted as many people as possible to see the advertisement, which is what any form of advertising seeks to achieve. This is not the worst clause I have ever seen, but I do not think there is any need for it, because any employer looking for new staff would automatically seek to cast their net widely.

Clause 3 states:

“Skills training provided by the contractor must form part of a nationally accredited scheme.”

Anybody who knows anything about the current form of apprenticeships will be aware that they result, by definition, in a nationally recognised qualification, whether it is at level 2, level 3 or level 4. I am therefore not sure what is added by clause 3.

The Government have done a lot to develop apprenticeships since taking office. They asked Doug Richard, an England-based Californian entrepreneur, to look in great depth at how the apprenticeship system was working. Hon. Members may remember that he came to prominence as a dragon in the first two series of the BBC’s “Dragons’ Den” programme. In 2008, he founded the School for Startups, which is an enterprise that teaches entrepreneurship in partnership with UK universities, the Royal Institution and the British Library.

The Richard review, which was produced in November 2012, is a substantial piece of work. Doug Richard spent months speaking to apprentices, employers and Government organisations. He highlights the problems that have developed in the apprenticeship system. The Government carried out a substantial consultation process for several months over the summer, which involved seven workshops covering assessment, qualifications and—

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

Order. I am afraid, Mr Nuttall, that you are again drifting beyond the purpose of the Bill. Let me be clear that your remarks have to relate to the Bill and its four clauses, which you have already debated rather extensively. We do not need a review of the Richard review. I want you to relate your comments to the Bill and its clauses. I hope that I have made myself clear this time, because I think that I might have failed last time.

[Mr Nuttall]

The reason the Richard review is enormously relevant is that in such a huge piece of work, nowhere did Doug Richard come up with the solution that is contained in the Bill. He spoke to hundreds of employers and Government organisations—I will not go through them all—but he did not come up with the solution in the Bill, and neither did any of people who responded to the Government’s consultation exercise over the summer. I hope that we hear more from the Minister about that, because he will have all the facts and figures at his fingertips. The Government’s work on the matter is therefore relevant.

As my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley briefly mentioned, this week the Prime Minister himself announced the new trailblazer programme during his visit to the Mini plant in Oxford. That programme will move apprenticeships on to a new level and deal with the problem that the hon. Member for Denton and Reddish says he is concerned about, which is the quality of apprenticeships. The Government’s approach is to have employers, rather than the Government themselves, lead the development of apprenticeships, and that is what the trailblazer system will ensure. As the Prime Minister said:

“If you want an apprenticeship, we’re going to make sure you do the best apprenticeship in the world.”

That sums up the trailblazer approach.

House of Lords Reform (No. 2) Bill

Debate between Baroness Primarolo and David Nuttall

Friday 18th October 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Nuttall]

rose—

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

Order. Perhaps we can refrain from discussing individual Members of the other place, or even those who might be individual Members of the other place.

[Mr Nuttall]

I am grateful for the helpful intervention from my hon. Friend, because I fear that I would not have got very many points for that particular question in the pub quiz.

If I may return to where I was—which was not with the Liberal Democrats—it is perhaps a little unfair to condemn all the Members of the other place as retired politicians, when only about a quarter are former Members of this House. Moreover, they are not retired politicians, because they are still taking part in the political process. That is the crucial point. They may be retired Members of the House of Commons, but it is an entirely noble—I use the word in its fullest sense—calling to be a Member of the other place and to devote one’s working life to the scrutiny of legislation, as they do so admirably.

All too often, certainly when House of Lords reform is being discussed, we look at the problem from the wrong end of the telescope. I am not making that point about this Bill, which is modest in its aims, but generally we look at the mechanics of the Lords rather than whether it is doing a good job in its primary task of scrutinising the legislation that we send to it. The answer is invariably that it is doing a good job.

The 2011 Leader’s group report suggested that it would be worth while investigating whether a modest pension or payment on retirement should be provided. The Political and Constitutional Reform Committee took evidence on that point, and the evidence of the Clerk of the Parliaments confirmed that savings could be made. I have some doubts about that, but it is a cause for concern. There is merit in the suggestion that we should have some sort of retirement procedure, whether it is called retirement or resignation—perhaps we could call it a leaving party. If that idea took off, it could mean a boost to the economy with House of Lords retirement parties, and give all hon. Members a new diary engagement at the end of each Session, as various Members of the other place retired or resigned.

We have had considerable discussion about what sort of scheme should be in place, and what use retired Members could make of the facilities. It has been suggested, for example, that the retired or resigned Members could still be entitled to make use of the facilities, and it might be worth looking at that idea. It is not an idea that I would favour, because in my view if someone has left, they have left, but it would perhaps be one way to encourage people to resign or retire.

Clause 2 relates to non-attendance and provides that if someone does not attend during a Session, the Lord Speaker can certify that they

“did not attend at any time during the Session, having regard to attendance records kept by officials of the House, and…did not have leave of absence in respect of the Session, in accordance with Standing Orders of the House.”

My concern about that provision is that it is not entirely clear what “attend” means. For example, if someone attends the building, but does not take part in proceedings on the Floor of the House, does that count as attendance?

European Union (Referendum) Bill

Debate between Baroness Primarolo and David Nuttall

Friday 5th July 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Nuttall]

That is an interesting point, but I do not want to get drawn down the road of talking about the merits of our membership of the European Union. The Bill is not about the merits of our membership of the European Union, but about whether our constituents should have a say. It is because the Bill will give the people of Bury, Ramsbottom and Tottington in my constituency the historic opportunity to vote for their freedom from the European Union that it has my wholehearted support. I wish it a speedy passage through this House.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

Thank you for your brevity, Mr Nuttall.

Social Care (Local Sufficiency) and Identification of Carers Bill

Debate between Baroness Primarolo and David Nuttall

Friday 7th September 2012 Commons Chamber

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

Order. Actually, the speech of the hon. Member for Bury North (Mr Nuttall) could be terminated only if the occupant of the Chair—myself—told him to resume his seat because of tedious repetition. Whatever hon. Members might think of his contribution, he has not got to that point. I would be grateful if we could allow the hon. Gentleman to continue his speech so that others may then participate.

[Mr Nuttall]

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.

Let me make a further quick point about the statistics that I was citing. The largest single barrier to employment that was highlighted—by 63% of respondents—was a lack of suitable local job opportunities, so an area’s prevailing employment market is obviously pre-eminent when determining whether a carer or disabled person is able to get into the workplace.

Clauses 1 to 3 would impose a sufficiency duty. The explanatory notes state that the duty

“goes beyond the existing duties and focus of local authorities which are only on those for whom they have direct responsibility—disabled people and carers who meet eligibility criteria and who do not exceed means-testing thresholds. There are currently no duties on local authorities to assess or address supply of non-statutory services for individuals privately purchasing care, by encouraging the development of new services.”

The notes go on to say:

“This clause would ensure that local authorities build a complete and accurate picture of the services needed, provided and purchased in their area.”

It would have been helpful if this duty could have been road-tested somewhere on a trial basis. There could perhaps have been a pilot before the Bill was introduced.

Clause 1(2) states that in discharging the sufficiency duty a local authority must have regard to statutory guidance issued by the Secretary of State. It might be expected that such guidance would clarify the terms necessary to determine what amounts to compliance with this sufficiency duty. The explanatory notes helpfully suggest:

“Placing a strategic duty on local authorities to ensure adequate social care would mean local authorities need to assess the care available in their area looking at the supply and demand of care and the affordability, accessibility and quality of provision. They would also need to identify gaps in provision and how these will be addressed. Local authorities would work in partnership with local providers to assess how services could support disabled people and carers to work, where appropriate.”

I will skip a large part of my prepared notes because, as we have heard this morning, where there is a difference between this Bill and the Government’s Bill, the Minister will look at trying to ensure that that requirement is included in the Bill.

The explanatory notes do not tell us the likely cost for every local authority to undertake the assessments that the Bill requires, and that is one of its principal problems. We have no idea of the cost of carrying out an assessment of the social care needs of disabled people and carers in any given area, which is why I suggested that a pilot project might have given us some idea of the likely cost.

--- Later in debate ---

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

Order. I have been following very closely what the hon. Gentleman has been saying for the past hour. I have been able to do that because much of it is in the House of Commons research paper on the Bill. I sincerely hope that he is not just taking quotes verbatim from that. If he is, as he knows, he will be falling foul of Standing Order No. 42. Perhaps he can therefore assure me that in continuing his remarks I will not be able to read them first in this document.

[Mr Nuttall]

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I have indeed been helped by the Library’s document, which is extremely useful in analysing the Bill.

I will move on, if I may. As I understand it, there is nothing to prevent local authorities from carrying out the various actions proposed by the Bill, so it might be worth asking why they are not already going down that route.

--- Later in debate ---

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

This is a matter for the Chair. There is an argument that reference to the trust’s details is relevant to the Bill. The trust is also identified clearly in the House of Commons research paper.

Although this is not on a point of order, while I am on my feet I remind the hon. Member for Bury North (Mr Nuttall) that, in principle, it is not permitted to read a speech in the Chamber. It is permissible to refer to notes and read short extracts from documents, but I think that he is stretching that widely now. He is in order and I hope that he will stay in order. I am sure that he is about to conclude to allow others to speak.

[Mr Nuttall]

I am about to conclude, Madam Deputy Speaker. I was not going to go into the website in detail. I pay tribute to all those who help run the Bury carers centre and the Bury Crossroads group in my constituency. Their details can be accessed through the website. They provide enormous help for carers in need of help, advice and assistance in my constituency.

As I said at the outset, the hon. Member for Worsley and Eccles South should be commended for bringing this issue to centre stage. I am sure that every hon. and right hon. Member has nothing but praise for the army of carers in this country who look after loved ones. The Bill is a genuine attempt to improve the lot of carers, but I fear that there are dangers associated with it. We have to be careful how we use scarce resources; I do not want them to be diverted away from front-line services.

The consultation period on the Government’s draft Care and Support Bill is now open until 19 October. It is a substantial draft Bill, with 83 clauses and 8 schedules. I hope that the promoters of this private Member’s Bill will take advantage of the consultation to suggest how the draft Bill could be amended and improved. The Minister has also given an undertaking my hon. Friend the Member for Banbury. I will conclude now, because I want to hear from the Front-Bench representatives and other Members, so that this can be a good, wide-ranging debate.

Public Services (Social Value) Bill

Debate between Baroness Primarolo and David Nuttall

Friday 25th November 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Nuttall]

Oh, there were Divisions in Committee.

This Bill plays a large part in the big society agenda. Once or twice today, anybody listening to this debate would have thought that it was a Government Bill. Of course, it is actually a private Member’s Bill. I am sure that even in its slimmed-down form, thousands of social enterprises across the country will welcome the progress that it has made. Having said that, there seems to be little in the Bill that could not take place regardless of whether the Bill makes progress and without the passage of new legislation. What is needed by those involved in the commissioning and procurement of public sector services is the will to secure diversity of provision. Users of public services are not concerned about whether the services are provided by the public sector, the private sector, the third sector, voluntary organisations, charities or social enterprises; what matters is the quality of the service they receive.

We need the process of bidding for public sector contracts to be made a great deal easier, not just for social enterprises, charities and voluntary organisations, but for small and medium-sized enterprises in the private sector. In that regard, I associate myself with the remarks made by my hon. Friend the Member for Congleton (Fiona Bruce). Smaller organisations, whether in the third sector or the private sector, often need a helping hand to guide them through what can seem to be a burdensome, complex and bureaucratic procedure. One thing that we need to do, as a Government and as a society, is to make that whole process much easier.

I hope that the Bill will encourage more social enterprises to develop and to take over, where feasible, areas of service from the public sector. From my point of view—I appreciate that this will not be welcome in all parts of the House—I would not worry if this was seen as a stepping-stone towards services being provided by the private sector. Of course when assets leave the public sector, the true and full price must be paid. Provided that that is done, there should be no loss to the public sector. We need dynamism in the procurement of public services, with contracts moving. Sometimes contracts might be kept in-house, sometimes they might go to the—

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

Order. I have given the hon. Gentleman quite a lot of latitude, as I have with other Members, but we are not on Third Reading or Second Reading; we are discussing new clauses and amendments. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman could anchor his remarks in the debate that we are currently having, not the one that we have not started.

[Mr Nuttall]

I am obliged to you, Madam Deputy Speaker. In fact, I was just making my final point, so if I may, I will complete that sentence and finish my remarks there.

I was saying that we would see contracts going from the public sector into the private sector, on to the third sector and then back again. There would be dynamism in the sector, which would mean that sometimes contracts would be lost by social enterprises and go back into the public sector or the private sector, and then be regained again. With that, I will not seek to catch the Chair’s eye on Third Reading, which I am sure you will be pleased about, Madam Deputy Speaker.

Lawful Industrial Action (Minor Errors) Bill

Debate between Baroness Primarolo and David Nuttall

Friday 22nd October 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr Nuttall]

rose—

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

Order. May I gently remind the hon. Gentleman about the remarks made at the beginning of this debate about a new way of debating in the House? He has been speaking for nearly 40 minutes. If he has set the scene, I would be grateful if he now dealt with the details of the Bill.

[Mr Nuttall]

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I will indeed. If I may, I will deal briefly with the intervention made on me, and then bring us up to date and consider the detail of the Bill.

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

Order. I hear what the hon. Gentleman says. He has set the scene, so he can deal with the intervention. However, I then expect him to address his remarks to the Bill.

[Mr Nuttall]

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I will indeed.

My hon. Friend the Member for Shipley (Philip Davies) is right about the devastating effect of industrial action such as that to which he referred. In the case in question, it looks as though the action was specifically arranged and organised to hurt people who had waited all year for their holiday. Therefore, it is not surprising that the law drawn up in 1999 should expect the highest standards of compliance. In view of what you have said, Madam Deputy Speaker, I will skip over the next portion of my remarks. Let us jump forward to the late 1970s. I think that this is relevant, because that was the time when trade union powers reached what could be described as their zenith.

--- Later in debate ---

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

Order.

Let me also remind the hon. Member for Bury North (Mr Nuttall), before he rises to reply to his hon. Friend’s intervention, that I have already told him very specifically that, having spoken for after 40 minutes, he should end his general remarks and begin to deal with the contents of the Bill. Before he replied to the earlier intervention, he assured me that he would do that, but he then broadened the debate. I should be grateful if, in replying to the intervention from the hon. Member for North West Leicestershire (Andrew Bridgen), he would refer directly to the Bill.

[Mr Nuttall]

I certainly will, Madam Deputy Speaker. To be fair, I think that I have already dealt with my hon. Friend’s point. I agree that there is a danger that that will happen if the Bill is allowed to proceed in its current form. However, I think it relevant to point out briefly—very briefly, and for the good of the trade union movement—that trade union membership has halved since the 1980s, from 13 million to 6.5 million. I fear that if the Bill were allowed to proceed and a further period of industrial unrest were to follow, there could well be a further decline, perhaps—although it is not for me to say—a terminal decline in union membership.

Let me now do what you have rightly asked me to do, Madam Deputy Speaker, and turn to the detail of the Bill.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Nuttall]

My hon. Friend makes a good, reasonable point. The law would not be clarified in any way by the Bill, but there is a real danger, as I have pointed out, that it would take us back to the situation we faced in the 1970s and 1980s. Much of the case law would be made redundant, and we would face yet more legal actions—

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

I know that the hon. Gentleman wants to make a number of points on the Bill, but he is repeating himself; he has come back to those points on a number of occasions. Perhaps he could carry on with the rest of his comments, rather than telling the hon. Member for Dover (Charlie Elphicke) what he has already said.

[Mr Nuttall]

I will indeed. I was just dealing with the intervention.

Use of the Chamber (United Kingdom Youth Parliament)

Debate between Baroness Primarolo and David Nuttall

Tuesday 20th July 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr Nuttall]

My hon. Friend touches on the crucial point that simply holding a debate—a one-off debate or annual debates—in the Chamber runs the risk of taking away these people’s lifelong interest. Does he agree that one’s interest in politics over a long time is driven by the desire to sit on these green Benches?

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

Order. May I remind Members of the procedure of the House? Interventions are supposed to be brief, not speeches in their own right. I know that everyone is really interested in the debate and that the hon. Member for Shipley (Philip Davies) has said that he would like to make progress on his main points, so if interventions were a little briefer, that would help.