Mr Nuttall
I am obliged to you, Madam Deputy Speaker. In fact, I was just making my final point, so if I may, I will complete that sentence and finish my remarks there.
I was saying that we would see contracts going from the public sector into the private sector, on to the third sector and then back again. There would be dynamism in the sector, which would mean that sometimes contracts would be lost by social enterprises and go back into the public sector or the private sector, and then be regained again. With that, I will not seek to catch the Chair’s eye on Third Reading, which I am sure you will be pleased about, Madam Deputy Speaker.
The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Mr Nick Hurd)
May I start by adding my voice to those who have congratulated my hon. Friend the Member for Warwick and Leamington (Chris White) on the way in which he has led this Bill? I have said that on every occasion and I mean it. I thank him in particular for reminding the House, in what was a statesmanlike response to the shadow Minister, of the importance of the cross-party support that has built up over some years behind this agenda. That is essential if we are to make further progress.
I was delighted by the contribution of the right hon. Member for Salford and Eccles (Hazel Blears). She may have been described as unhinged in the past, but she was perfectly hinged today in her comments. She made it clear that, whatever her frustrations with the Bill, she recognises that it is a start and is happy for it to progress.
The hon. Member for Harrow West (Mr Thomas), my Harrow neighbour, is entirely right that we must not lose momentum. This agenda is more important than ever. We have a highly risk averse public sector system and a traditional business sector that is too stagnant in many areas. They must take this opportunity to create space for the change makers and the people who have the vision to stand up and say, “We see what you are doing. It can be done better.” This is exactly the time to do that. I have a lot of sympathy for the thrust of the hon. Gentleman’s remarks, which was about encouraging the system to go further. What he neglected to mention, in complaining about the playing field not being level, was who has tended the playing field for the past 13 years.
The hon. Gentleman also forgot to mention that it was a Labour Secretary of State for Health who reversed policy and made it clear that the NHS was to be the supplier of choice—a statement that sent shockwaves through the social enterprise and charity sector. I am glad that we are back on track and giving new momentum to the message that we must diversify our base of public sector delivery partners and that we must create more space for the change makers who are prepared to challenge the system.
That message is being recognised in some bizarre places. I wish that the hon. Gentleman had been with me this time last week in Brussels—I could have done with the company. I was at a conference where 800 people gathered from all over Europe, summoned by President Barroso and Commissioner Barnier for the launch of their social business initiative. Here we are in the middle of the greatest crisis facing the eurozone and the Commission is taking time, with leadership from the top, to state the importance of the whole area of social enterprise and social entrepreneurship. Speaker after speaker came to the podium to congratulate Britain on its leadership in Europe on this agenda. We must not lose sight of the big picture. We have the opportunity and the need to keep the momentum going.
I differ from the hon. Member for Harrow West on his view that simply legislating to require the Government to produce a statutory document will be transformational. We had a good debate on this matter in Committee, so I will not labour the point. However, I am extremely grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Bury North (Mr Nuttall) for quoting what I said on Second Reading. I agreed with every word of it—I was on good form that day—and I stick to it. My hon. Friend the Member for Warwick and Leamington usefully reminded the House that we have had action plans before, and it is about not the publication of a plan but delivery and action.
The hon. Member for Harrow West bemoaned the lack of a strategic framework, but I would argue that in fact the coalition Government set a strong lead and set out a very strong framework in the agreement for government, which contains an explicit statement about our commitment to support the creation of mutuals and social enterprises and encourage them to play a bigger role in public service delivery. From that, a flow of action is increasingly evident in various areas, which I will summarise briefly.
Hazel Blears
Will the Minister acknowledge that it was in fact the previous Labour Government who introduced the legislation that enabled social enterprises to be established in the health service, and who provided significant financial support to get them off the ground? That was a Labour initiative. There are organisations such as Six Degrees, Unlimited Potential and the Angel health centre all across my city now, and they are providing excellent services. That was an initiative of the Labour Government.
Mr Hurd
I am very much prepared to accept, as I have in public on many occasions both in the House and outside, that we are building on some excellent work, to which consistency is fundamental. The point that I made earlier was that it was a Labour Secretary of State who sent a very mixed message to the market by giving an explicit statement that the NHS was to be the supplier of choice. I am delighted that there now seems to be cross-party support again for a message that is more positive for, and supportive of, social enterprises and charities and the opportunity for them to deliver public services.
The hon. Member for Harrow West mentioned the Work programme, and he is right that it is early days. There is certainly some frustration and cynicism out there in the social sector, and I am listening to it and liaising closely with the Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions, my right hon. Friend the Member for Epsom and Ewell (Chris Grayling), on it. However, we cannot lose sight of the fact that under one of the most important of the Government’s programmes, deliberately structured as a payment-by-results system to incentivise primes to work with organisations that have a track record and a good opportunity to deliver results, we have 300 social enterprises and charities in the supply chain. Depending on their delivery, I believe they are set to earn several hundred million pounds over the life of their contracts. That is definitely a step forward.
The Work programme is not just about encouraging different suppliers of existing services. We are trying to get the system to think differently about how services are commissioned, so we are working with four local authorities on troubled families with multiple problems. I think we all know from our constituencies that the state has historically not done a very good job of supporting such families. We are encouraging those local authorities to consider working in a different way and structuring a more holistic service based more on prevention and an openness to working with different suppliers under a payment-by-results contract. We hope that will lead to four new social impact bonds, to encourage social investors to come in and share some of the risk and return.
That action and activity is intended to break down what the right hon. Member for Salford and Eccles and others know is a tremendous aversion to risk in the system. No one can pretend that that is easy, or that publishing a strategy document or even Government guidelines will instantly break down the culture of risk aversion in the public sector. She rightly talked about the need to support commissioners better, because they are operating in systems that are tremendously averse to risk. I have sat around tables with commissioners who get what we are talking about and want to make progress and work more with social enterprises and charities to restructure services. However, I have had queues of people at the door saying, “You can’t do that.” I am sure she knows—she has been there—that the more we consider the matter, the bigger the challenge gets.
We are thinking afresh about how we support commissioners, and the Minister for the Cabinet Office has talked about our plans to set up a commissioning academy to try to support commissioners, develop more intelligent commissioning and raise the status of the profession and the qualifications in it. We want to develop learning resources that build on the best practice that is being developed around the system, and that is a serious project.
The Bill will add value to that process—perhaps not in ways that every Member would like, because we all know that politics is the art of the possible at a given moment and that there are compromises to be made, but we are on a journey. The Bill will complement the best value duty, which Opposition Members did not mention but which my hon. Friend the Member for Finchley and Golders Green (Mike Freer) brought up. That was an important piece of guidance from the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government to local authorities, setting out an expectation that commissioners should consider the overall value of service provision, including economic, environmental and social value. That covered the full procurement chain for services and goods, and was a very clear new piece of guidance.
We believe that the Bill will complement that useful guidance by sending an additional signal to commissioners outside local authorities that, where it is relevant and proportionate, they should consider social value at the pre-procurement phase when they are considering commissioning services. That is how we can balance out the areas in which we think the biggest impact can be made now and our desire not to impose too many disproportionate duties and burdens on people who are doing already very difficult jobs. That is where we are comfortable with pushing the agenda forward.
Mike Freer
I am grateful to the Minister for his clarification of the guidance from my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government. Guidance is fine, but from memory I believe it is still open to a local council tax payer or resident to challenge a local authority’s accounts if they believe that the local authority has not achieved best value. We need to go beyond guidance and ensure that the legislation all lines up.
Mr Hurd
I accept that point, and to some degree that is what we are doing today. We are moving forward on that. My hon. Friend mentions the concept of the right to challenge, which had not previously been mentioned in the debate. Again, we are moving forward on that, because we are moving into a world in which there will be much more information about what commissioners are doing and how public money is being spent. Through the Localism Act 2011, which I am delighted to say has completed its passage through Parliament, the right to challenge is now set in statute, with regulations to follow shortly to clarify how it will work. That is progress on the journey that I have described.
Mr Hurd
I have nothing to add to what I said in Committee. The Bill is reasonably clear about where it will apply.
The right hon. Member for Salford and Eccles mentioned B4Box in her constituency. The position will be enhanced by the new best value guidance, and there is nothing to prevent the local authority from working on the basis that she described. I am grateful to her for bringing Aileen in to talk about the matter. Aileen is doing it. There is space in the system for her to do it. She and I would probably agree that we need to send a stronger signal that it is okay, but it is okay and people are doing it. The best value guidance from the Secretary of State moves things on further by sending a signal of permissiveness.
I have always made it clear that the Government have from the start supported the principle of the Bill because of the value that it adds to the process, and it goes with the grain of what the previous Administration were trying to achieve. The system, risk averse as it is, is getting a consistently stronger signal about the need to take account of wider social value considerations when spending taxpayers’ and constituents’ money and to be more alive to opportunities to commission intelligently. Lots of examples have been cited in our debates of fantastic organisations, such as Create, that are adding value to our communities. I cited that example in my Brussels speech because in many ways it embodies exactly what we are trying to encourage.
We can do more. The hon. Member for Harrow West goaded us to come up with more ideas to support social enterprises in this movement. I have talked about the need to open up new market opportunities to help these enterprises grow and to help more people, but the Government can do more to make life simpler for the social entrepreneur. I shall come later to the question of definition but these are businesses first and foremost, and the guidance and requirements that we place on people trying to run businesses in this country are ridiculously disproportionate. A rigorous process is under way. It cannot be undertaken lightly and it does not lend itself to soundbites. It is a rigorous process of going through each subsector of the economy to look at the regulatory burden and to discuss with the players in those sectors what we can remove and what is no longer proportionate or necessary. That process is well under way.
We can also help social enterprises with the increasingly important question of how to measure social impact. That is their currency. Many of us know that the money providers, whether private or public, are increasingly demanding that social enterprises, charities and, I hope, other organisations measure and communicate their social impact and social value, which is their unique selling point. Many of us are also aware that arguably there is too great a profusion of initiatives in this area and of the risk that this will only confuse the landscape. I want greater coherence and consistency not least so that we, as funders, and other stakeholders can agree on what is worth measuring and how it can be measured affordably by all organisations.
Hazel Blears
This is a really important point. There is a plethora of ways to measure social value. I mentioned in Committee an organisation called Connectives, which has moved on from the social return on investment transactional model towards a much more in-depth assessment of what social value means. Is the Minister prepared to meet the two female accountants behind Connectives to explore their ideas?
Mr Hurd
I would be delighted. I thoroughly enjoyed the first meeting that the right hon. Lady invited me to, and I am sure that this one will be just as informative. I also thank her for reinforcing my instinct that the Government can take a lead in trying to make life simpler for all parties, not least in our role as a major funder, and to help people to reach greater coherence and consistency when working out what is worth measuring and how it can be measured by all organisations, not only those with the deepest pockets.
Mr Hurd
My hon. Friend the Member for Warwick and Leamington (Chris White) is bathing in the warm glow of the House’s approval and he deserves it, because he and his Bill have reached a milestone that very few people pass. He is to be very warmly congratulated on it. I have been in his position, so I know how frustrating the journey can be and how much patience is required—he has demonstrated all that. I would particularly like to congratulate him on the way in which he has worked with stakeholders outside this place to bring them together and keep them together on this journey. I know that it has been deeply appreciated.
My hon. Friend can take some comfort from the fact that I believe sincerely that the Bill has not been gutted—far from it. It has been focused on what is most important and valuable right now, which is sending a much clearer signal to those who are doing the very difficult job of buying services on our behalf. At the critical pre-procurement phase—the importance of which is so often underestimated and at which those buying are thinking hard and consulting about what is needed and about what they are buying, shaping the market of potential supply for that service—they should receive a clear message from us that we expect them to consider social and environmental value, when relevant and proportionate. That is a very useful addition and complements the other initiatives that are all pushing for space, not least the best value guidance from the Department for Communities and Local Government.
I am delighted to stand at the Dispatch Box on behalf of the Government to congratulate my hon. Friend, to confirm our support and to wish him every good fortune in the other place. If he succeeds, his name will be on the milestone of a very important journey that will help to unlock the entrepreneurial energy that wants to be part of this process. We will then be able to deliver what we all want: better public services for the people we serve.
Question put and agreed to.
Bill accordingly read the Third time and passed.