Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill

Baroness Primarolo Excerpts

Tuesday 19th October 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr MacNeil]

rose—

[The Second Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Dawn Primarolo)]

Order. Before the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil) intervenes, may I remind the Committee that we are not discussing AV versus first past the post? We are debating a particular form in this amendment, and we are now drifting away from that a little. Perhaps we could come back to it.

[Mr Chope]

I will give way to the hon. Gentleman.

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[Mr Chope]

The hon. Gentleman makes a good point.

I refer the Committee to the evidence submitted to the Political and Constitutional Reform Committee by Professor Patrick Dunleavy in the 14th written submission on page 205 in the third report on the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill. In his important paper, he asks what the alternative vote means. Were the Bill to pass, and were there to be a referendum in which the question on the alternative vote appeared on the ballot paper, many members of the public would ask precisely that question: what does the alternative vote mean?

[The Second Deputy Chairman]

Order. That might be in people’s minds, or it might not, but the hon. Gentleman must come back to his amendment, which covers a particular version of the system. I would be grateful if he would stay focused on that point; it is quite a narrow one.

[Mr Chope]

It is indeed.

The effect of my amendment would be to adopt the system that Professor Dunleavy describes as London AV, rather than the three alternatives—classic AV, Australian AV and London AV—also set out in his document. The amendment has obviously been selected for debate because Mr Speaker recognised that there is more than one system of alternative votes. The system that I am describing can be described as the supplementary vote system, but there is also one known as the Australian system.

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[Mr Chope]

I cannot change my amendment at this stage, and I am not sure that an amendment dealing with AV-plus would have been selected. If the hon. Gentleman wanted an AV-plus amendment, he could have—

[The Second Deputy Chairman]

Order. We are not discussing AV-plus. Can we get back to the amendment? We have a lot of business to get through over the next two days, so I would be grateful if all hon. Members—in their interventions as well as their speeches—focused their comments on the amendment.

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[Chris Bryant]

rose—

[The Second Deputy Chairman]

Order. I hope that in replying, the hon. Gentleman will not be tempted into a general discussion about AV.

[Chris Bryant]

I would like to ask you, Ms Primarolo, whether you view this as constituting a stand part debate as well.

[The Second Deputy Chairman]

I do not consider this to be a stand part debate because the amendment is very narrow. Members should be aware of that: if they push the margins too widely, it will lead to sacrificing debate later.

[Chris Bryant]

Fine. I just wanted to give notice that we would like a stand part debate when the debate on this amendment has concluded.

My hon. Friend the Member for Middlesbrough (Sir Stuart Bell) is wrong. In theory, it might seem possible to cast seven preferences if there were seven candidates; however, a preference would be expressed only six times, as at the end it is a choice between the sixth and seventh candidates. It is unlikely that that would happen very often in practice.

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[Chris Bryant]

rose—

[The Second Deputy Chairman]

Order. I am sure the hon. Gentleman knows that the views of the parliamentary Labour party, vast or otherwise, are not specifically relevant to the amendment. Perhaps I can help the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) by informing him that he can move on.

[Chris Bryant]

I am very grateful, Ms Primarolo. I should have thought that the views of the parliamentary Labour party were slightly relevant to the debate—certainly when it comes to the vote—but obviously I do not seek to challenge your ruling. I merely say to my hon. Friend the Member for Walsall North (Mr Winnick) that I do not think that anyone has fully tested the precise views held, and there are many respects in which I think he is wrong. For instance, I think that the vast majority of us in the parliamentary Labour party want to change the electoral system, so that registration can be improved throughout the land and the 3 million people who are currently not on the register can be included.

I merely wished to make a few simple points. If it is certain that we are to have a clause stand part debate, I will reserve some of the other points that I wish to make until then.

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[Mr Chope]

rose—

[The Second Deputy Chairman]

Order. The Minister is addressing very clearly a number of complex points, and I realise that he is looking behind him because he wants to be as helpful as possible, but we need him to face forward so that Members in all parts of the Chamber can hear his comments.

[Mr Harper]

I am grateful, Ms Primarolo. I think my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch wanted to intervene.