Rating (Property in Common Occupation) and Council Tax (Empty Dwellings) Bill

Debate between Baroness Pinnock and Earl of Listowel

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 19th June 2018 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Listowel (CB)]

My Lords, I missed most of the earlier debate and the commencement of this one but I have two or three questions that the Minister might be able to help me with now or, if not, to write to me about. My questions arise after listening earlier to my noble friend Lord Lytton. I know of men, for instance, who care for their mothers who are getting frail and elderly, and I can imagine a man in a rather unattractive rental area in the north who has a property which he vacates so that he can live with his mother and look after her. It is all a bit too much to manage as money is short and there is not much demand by people wanting to use that property. I would not want someone like that to have to pay a fine. Local authorities are very tough on those who do not pay their council tax. I imagine that that may well have been dealt with in earlier debates, and I am sorry that I could not be here for those. However, that is an example of something that might happen.

I guess that this discussion brings up the question of how we make the private rented sector attractive so that there are not areas in the north of England where it is difficult to find people to rent properties.

[Baroness Pinnock]

I am just a bit concerned that we seem to think that all these problems are in the north of England, where I live. I would rather that we were all a bit more careful about how we describe the north of England. There are some wonderful places there in which to live and, like everywhere else, including this great city of London, there are some not so pleasant places in which to live. I hope that noble Lords do not mind me saying that we should not always use the north as an example of an area where there are difficult places to live.

Education and Adoption Bill

Debate between Baroness Pinnock and Earl of Listowel

Tuesday 10th November 2015 Grand Committee

[The Earl of Listowel]

If I may respond to the noble Baroness, Lady Perry, one listens to the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Peckham, talk about his schools and the transformation that they have wrought, and indeed one listens to the Minister talk about our local school here, and it is clearly a huge and most important change that is very much to be welcomed.

I suppose that I need to be careful not to strain at gnats when we are talking about bigger issues. I recognise that expectations about the educational attainment of young people in care have been too low in the past. We have said that they have had too difficult a time, it is tragic and we cannot push them. However, we need to be careful not to move from one extreme to another. Ultimately, the best thing is what the Government are trying to do: to recruit and retain the best professionals closest to the child who are in the position to make a judgment on just how hard to push that child forward and at the same time how gentle to be with that child—a nuanced, sensitive approach. The children who visited us yesterday—what to say? I agree with these measures and I am sorry that I have not expressed myself more clearly. I certainly agree that we should not let children down by having too low an expectation.

[Baroness Pinnock]

I thank noble Lords for the interesting debate that we have had around accountability. I particularly thank the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, for the general support that he has given for the idea of trying to establish a greater degree of accountability within the system. I also thank him for reminding us that this is in fact a very nationalising, centralising approach to education, notwithstanding the remarks made by the Minister. In essence, all academies have to report to the Secretary of State, with one layer in between, which is the regional schools commissioner who is appointed by the Secretary of State. If that is not a centralising, nationalising approach to schools, I do not know what is. That is one of my problems with the creation of academies without any local accountability built in to the system.

Moving on to the regional schools commissioners, they are not regional in the accepted, geographic sense of the word. In my part of West Yorkshire, our regional schools commissioner is in—dare I say the word?—Lancashire. I have to tell you that it does not go down particularly well to be described as being part of the Lancashire—and a little bit of West Yorkshire—schools commissioner. I jest, in a sense, to make the point: because of the way that the regional schools commissioners are set up, they do not understand and know the regions. Most of the north-west is made up of very different communities from the old textile and engineering communities that I serve in West Yorkshire. For one man—it is a man—to try to understand and have that soft information, rather than always relying on the hard data, to make decisions about accountability is much to be regretted.

Finally, the noble Lord, Lord Sutherland, raised the shibboleth that is democratic accountability. We need to understand both those words. We are in danger, I think, of creating an education service in this country that has no, or very little, democratic input. For a service that is for every child, regardless of background, community or place, to have no democratically elected person to whom they can call on for help and guidance, and for those elected people to have no means by which to address those concerns, is a route down which we should not be going. Where else will those people turn? There is no point saying, as the Minister did, that parents are already writing to the reginal schools commissioners. No doubt they are—but they will not be some of the parents in the communities that I serve, for whom English is a second language and whose own literacy skills are not very good. They will not have those skills, so who does it fall on? Who in this chain will stand up for parents and their children who are not perhaps getting a fair deal locally? That is what I want to know and that is why this amendment was tabled. I have yet to hear the answers.

Those are my concerns about the words “democratic” and “accountability”. It is about having a local voice; someone who knows and who can be trusted and relied on to stand up for local people. I have yet to hear that. That is a huge shame and one that I think we will live to regret unless we create some means of achieving this outcome. Having made those remarks, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

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[Baroness Pinnock]

I am happy to respond. I am still a school governor and many noble Lords will be aware that the governance of maintained schools has had to change, and rightly so, for the reasons that have been given. By September of this year, school governing bodies had been completely overhauled. Many school governors are now co-opted for their specific expertise or experience. On my governing body we have two people who work in local businesses, an IT expert, someone from the finance sector to help with that side of things, as well as a couple of parent governors, staff governors, and by choice, a local authority governor. School governance has been substantially strengthened by these regulations and, where it is done well, they will inject two important elements. One is expertise and understanding, along with keeping the involvement of staff members and parents, and the other is that it is locally based. At the school where I remain on the governing body, it is local business people who are involved. That would be true across the piece, which is to everyone’s enormous advantage.

[The Earl of Listowel]

I thank the noble Baroness.

Childcare Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Pinnock and Earl of Listowel

Monday 6th July 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Pinnock]

My Lords, this is a timely amendment, given the Government’s Statement of last week. When we were considering the Bill’s impact, it seemed to us that it would be a progressive move to relate the benefits of the additional free hours of childcare to improvement or otherwise in measures of child poverty, hence the amendment tabled in my name.

When considering the impact of the Bill, we became concerned that the financial benefits claimed by the Government could be completely undermined by changes they are going to make elsewhere. We were right to be concerned, given their announcement last week that they aim to abolish the measures of child poverty that were instituted in the Child Poverty Act 2010. In particular, we are concerned that the combination of those changes and the changes to working families’ benefits will have an adverse impact on child poverty.

There was cross-party support for the Government’s attempt in the 2010 Act to set out targets to reduce child poverty. Therefore, I am disappointed—to put it mildly—that the Government are now intent on removing the income-related figures for child poverty and replacing them with measures of worklessness and educational attainment. If you are a child living in a family on low income or benefits, it matters little whether that is the consequence of your parents’ worklessness or educational attainment, and there is little you can do about it. It is really important that we get to grips with this and use the Childcare Bill to lift more children out of poverty. I am sure there is a commitment to doing that across this House; it is the way we do it that will be a matter of debate.

The Government will want to use the undoubted benefits of the Bill to achieve that by agreeing to amendments that would extend the definition of working parents to those seeking to improve their education and skills. That would marry very neatly with what the Government said in the other place last week about educational attainment being a measure of poverty. If that is to be one of their measures, using the Bill to help parents who are seeking to improve their skills by going into education or training would combine the wishes of the Government with the Childcare Bill. That is something we could perhaps all agree to.

When I raised this issue last week, the Minister said that there were other ways for young parents who were in education to access some form of childcare, and he is right. But, having asked people over the weekend how this works, I can assure him that it is not that easy for young parents going into college, university or training to access really good free childcare. Aligning the Bill with the requirements of people going into education and training would be an enormously progressive move towards helping low-income families and therefore tackling child poverty.

If there is something we can do to lift more children out of poverty—which would have long-term benefits not just for them but for the country as a whole—and if we can do it fairly simply by linking parents’ educational needs with the Bill, we should all try to do it. I would be very pleased indeed if the Minister rethought the answer he gave me last week, in the light of the Government’s announcement, and I urge him to do so. I beg to move.

[The Earl of Listowel (CB)]

I am grateful to the noble Baroness for moving this amendment. The Child Poverty Action Group has told us that it welcomes this legislation because of the positive impact that it is likely to have on child poverty. I hope that it may be helpful to remind the House of concerns about other current factors in play which might impact on child poverty.

I am grateful to the Minister for agreeing to a meeting on the issue of homeless families. I am reminded of a couple of times recently where, due to a combination of policy factors, many poor families have had to move out of London because they can no longer afford to live here. That is causing concern to employers, as their workforce is leaving London, and one must be concerned that those families are going to areas where they will have difficulty finding employment. While I know that this is an extremely difficult issue, it is helpful when we are talking about policies which will raise children out of poverty to keep in mind other things that might be pushing children into poverty and to think carefully about what we can do to hit that on the head as well.

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[Baroness Pinnock]

My Lords, Amendment 39 is in my name and that of my noble friend Lord German and the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch. The amendment is an extension of our discussion on Amendment 34 on the links between this Bill and child poverty. As we know, the Government have a way of encouraging people out of poverty by encouraging them into work, and to make work pay. One of the ways of making work pay is by providing additional free childcare. Those who have relatives with young families will know the huge cost of paying for childcare in order to go out to work. We know that some working parents currently pass over most of their income to childcare costs, so this Bill is to be greatly welcomed.

However, I would like to explore through this amendment the link between the Bill and the incomes that families will have, and the changes to those incomes that we know are on the cards later this week in an announcement from the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The Government have claimed, no doubt accurately, that the provisions in the Bill will see an additional benefit to families of around £2,500 a year. That would be a huge and significant saving to parents. However, the simple fact is that for those on low incomes and who most need the benefits of free childcare, all that good work could be wiped out by government cuts to tax credits of various kinds and perhaps to housing benefit.

I know that the Minister will be unable to tell us exactly what cuts to tax credits we are set to see in the Budget this week. Indeed, the Government have been singularly unwilling to spell out where their £12 billion of welfare savings will come from, but I think all sides of the House can agree that these cuts are likely to come at the expense of lower-income working families. The Prime Minister has already trailed that we will see cuts in tax credits, with some people suggesting that there might be up to £5 billion of projected savings. If that is the case, it would result in families with two children losing up to £1,700 a year, seriously diminishing the very welcome impact of the free additional childcare.

Despite what the Prime Minister suggested about companies paying more to workers to offset the impact of any cuts to tax credits, without real action on the minimum and living wage that is frankly rather more hope than expectation. We cannot assume that employers will be either able or willing to pick up the slack by paying a living wage to make up for the loss, for instance, of working tax credits. The decision about tax credits will make a huge difference to people, whether in employment or not. Cuts will mean that it is no longer financially possible for someone with high childcare costs to go out to work. That means that they will lose not only their tax credits but potentially the entitlement of free childcare, a double whammy that will do what none of us wants and punish the children of those families.

However, as much of this detail is still to be discussed and we may not know the Government’s intentions until Wednesday, we propose in this amendment to have a review two years hence of the financial impact on lower-income working families of the combination of the free childcare offer and any reductions in working tax credits, child tax credits and housing benefit. I made the case earlier today about the important link between this Bill, child poverty and the impact on low-income families. If the Government want to be progressive—I am sure they do—they will see that link and try to make work pay by ensuring that childcare is of benefit to low-income families. Ultimately, that is the purpose of this amendment: to consider the link between the two. I beg to move.

[The Earl of Listowel]

My Lords, the noble Baroness referred to the national living wage. I believe that two former advisers to the Prime Minister recently endorsed a move towards the living wage. Clearly, this Bill would be that much more effective and there would be much more incentive for people to take what is offered in it if we moved to a national living wage. What current position do the Government take towards the gradual introduction of a national living wage?

[Lord Nash]

In Amendment 39, the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, seeks assurance that the Government will monitor and report on the impact of the entitlement. She spoke with passion about the importance of supporting low-income working families with the cost of childcare, which is the subject of today’s debate, and I will confine my remarks to the subject of today’s discussion. I agree that it is extremely important and must be kept in mind at all stages of policy development in the early years.

The Government have ably and amply demonstrated their commitment to supporting low-income working families with the cost of childcare and to improving the educational outcomes of all children, particularly those from disadvantaged backgrounds. As my noble friend and I have set out in this debate and in previous discussions, the Government have committed to increasing childcare support within universal credit by around £350 million to provide 85% of childcare costs from 2016 where the lone parent or both parents in a couple are in work. The Government have introduced an entitlement to free early education for the most disadvantaged two year-olds, while the early years pupil premium will provide more support to improve outcomes for disadvantaged three and four year-olds.

The Government have demonstrated their commitment to understanding the impact of the provision of free childcare through previous projects such as the Effective Pre-School, Primary and Secondary Education project and the new longitudinal study of early education and development, as my noble friend and I mentioned previously. The Government also collect a range of data on the take-up of the existing entitlements, including the number of children taking up a place. The most recent data were published on 25 June. They reflect the position in January of this year and are extremely encouraging. As detail of the new entitlement is developed further, we will consider what further data should be collected to enable effective monitoring of the new entitlement.

The Government recognise the benefits and importance of evaluating the impact of significant policies such as this but do not believe that it is necessary or appropriate to legislate for the production of a report or to define the timeline and content of such a report. I therefore urge the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, to withdraw her amendment.