Equine (Records, Identification and Movement) (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019
Debate between Baroness Parminter and Lord Grantchester(5 years, 9 months ago)
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Baroness Parminter (LD)
My Lords, I too thank the Minister and his officials for the helpful way in which they have outlined the impact of this statutory instrument and answered questions from those of us who brought them to their attention. I am particularly glad that we can reassure the general public. I feel that very few of them will read the statutory instrument, but it makes it clear that the status quo will be maintained with regard to equine passports. We do not want horse owners thinking that there will be changes in when they need to get their horses identified or in the status for selling feral ponies because although the SI removes those requirements, they are found elsewhere in domestic legislation. If you read the SI, you would not know that, but it was very reassuring to hear from the Minister that the status quo is maintained with regard to equine passports.
I add my voice to the voices of those who raised the issue of horsemeat entering the food chain. I understand from officials that the regulations with regard to the waiting time before that meat can enter the food chain are carried over in their entirety. Going on from what the noble Baroness, Lady Byford, said, it is not just horses going abroad. Horses are slaughtered in the UK. We have four registered slaughterhouses in the UK. I was amazed to find out that 2,800 animals a year are slaughtered in the UK for the food chain.
I do not oppose this statutory instrument but it highlights a number of concerns about what will happen to the trade in and moving of horses if there is no deal. As the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh, said, this mainly concerns racing, competition and breeding, but individual horse owners take their horses to the continent, including younger people who might go to train to be great jockeys in the future, which would be fantastic. It is estimated that 42,000 such journeys are made every year, so if there is no deal, the impact will be great.
I have one question for the Minister. As the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh, has noted, the Government’s technical note makes clear that the UK will need to be listed as a third country by 29 March. If we are not listed, we cannot move horses to Europe. Can the Minister confirm whether I am correct that if we are not listed by the EU as a third-party country, no horses will be able to move? That would have an incredibly big impact. The noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh, said that the impact assessment, such as it is, refers only to the impact of this tiny SI, which is less than £5 million, but if there is no deal and horses cannot move, that will have a massive impact on the industry and on individual horse owners. Have the Government made any estimation of the cost of that devastating outcome?
The second area I want to touch on is that if there is no deal but we are listed, there will be a need for the new ID document, as the Minister rightly identified. As he said, this should be for non-industry equines only. However, having listened to the debate in the Commons, it seems that there is the possibility that the Commission may not recognise our stud books; that is my understanding of the Commons debate. I would be interested to know whether there is a possibility of the Commission not recognising our stud books. In that case, all equines, including industry equines, would be required to have ID documentation. I know that the Minister has made it clear that the documentation, both the export certificate and the ID documentation, would be available at a minimal cost, but they will require extra blood tests which cost hundreds of pounds. As the noble Lord, Lord Trees, mentioned in the debate on an earlier SI, this will require vets. However, if we do not get a deal, we will not have the 50% of our vets who come from other parts of Europe. We could be under real pressure in terms of the number of vets we have. Again, that would put an extra burden on horse owners and it is possible that the industry might have to wait longer to enable the veterinary profession to undertake these extra requirements. All of that comes on top of the extra border inspections which may be required at ports. I believe that most horse owners are very caring and considerate; they do not want to see their horses stuck at borders, which would be the result of no deal.
This SI points to the fact that, at the very minimum, there will be extra costs, extra administrative requirements and undoubtedly extra time for horse owners if we have no deal. If we have no deal and we do not get listed as a third party, there will be no movement at all, which will have a massive impact. This is another statutory instrument which demonstrates the huge loss that this country will bear if we leave the European Union on 29 March.
Lord Grantchester (Lab)
I add my name to other noble Lords who have spoken today and thank the Minister for his explanation of the regulations. I declare my interests as set out in the register, but hasten to add that I have no connections with anything to do with horses. The Minister is correct to make clear that these regulations are being made in the event of a no deal outcome to the UK leaving the EU and it would be redundant should the UK leave with a deal. I thank the Minister once again for facilitating discussions earlier in the week on the SI.
While EU law is supported by UK domestic enforcement legislation after exit day with a deal, as EU legislation will then be retained under the withdrawal Act, the UK must still have an effective, operable statute book should the UK leave the EU without an agreement, as the Minister has explained. Labour recognises that the regulations largely make no changes to the current policy or enforcement, although there are one or two points I shall come to, and therefore does not oppose them. That is not to say that there are no significant concerns about the considerable impact that a no deal outcome will have on the equine industry as well as nearly every other industry. For this reason, the sifting committee of your Lordships’ House has recommended that the regulations be made under the affirmative procedure.
EU law requires equines to be identified by way of a passport. In most cases, equines born after 2009 must also be uniquely identifiable with a microchip. It is recognised and emphasised that this passport will contain important identity information and pertinent details of veterinary medicines administered to the animal and will define the animal’s current food chain status eligibility. The identification regulations have also been recently updated. The UK’s database was launched on 8 March 2018 and contains data about virtually every equine in the UK except those registered and listed as belonging to semi-wild and wild populations. It is to these populations that my attention has been drawn by World Horse Welfare and I thank that organisation for raising these issues. In his opening remarks, the Minister explained that the technicalities under the legislation withdrawing the UK from the EU might explain some of the anomalies the charity has raised. I thank him for that and I also thank the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, who underlined this point. Some of the points that I am about to raise might be redundant, although, as World Horse Welfare has specifically asked these questions and I have given the Minister notice of them, perhaps I may outline them so that he can deal with them appropriately.
Veterinary Surgeons and Animal Welfare (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019
Debate between Baroness Parminter and Lord Grantchester(5 years, 9 months ago)
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Baroness Parminter (LD)
My Lords, I am grateful to be able to participate in this debate. I agree with the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Trees, that we all wish our veterinary surgeons to be of the highest standard and it is incumbent on us in this House to ensure that the public have the highest confidence in them. However, I disagree most strongly with his position that Brexit will be good for animal welfare and the veterinary profession.
We need to reflect on the very real challenge posed by Brexit about how we will get the number of vets that we will need in future. I will come on to the specific issue of no deal, where there are particular issues about how we will get the number of vets, but I echo the comments from the noble Lord, Lord Trees, that it would be wonderful if the Government could confirm tonight that vets will be added to the shortage occupation list. This would allay some of those concerns. Given that 50% of normal vets and 95% of vets in slaughterhouses come from Europe at the moment, how we ensure that we get qualified vets in the UK in future is absolutely critical. Although the Minister and the noble Lord, Lord Trees, mentioned that, at the moment, only 13% of applicants come from colleges and veterinary schools around Europe which are not accredited, that is still a significant number and these regulations will create more barriers and fees. On top of that, if the Government keep to their stated immigration limits, there is a real risk that we will not have enough vets post Brexit.
That is particularly the case if we have a no-deal scenario. It was sobering to read the comments of the former Chief Veterinary Officer, Nigel Gibbens, who said that if we have a no-deal scenario, we will need an increase of 325% in veterinary certifications, to deal with the certification of animals and animal products at our ports. That is a major issue, which is relevant to this statutory instrument, as confirmed by the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee. It asked the department how we will ensure we can get more vets should we face a no-deal scenario, with that requirement for 325% more veterinary certifications. The answer the committee received was about this new para-professional job, called a “certification support officer”. This was news to me, and I have to say that, having read the information from the department, I am not really that much clearer about what these officers will do to address the huge shortfall in access to veterinary services if we leave the European Union without a deal. Defra has told the committee that it will not undertake veterinary duties, which begs the question: if these jobs are currently undertaken by vets, what administrative tasks will the new post of certification support officer be undertaking?
Is the Minister confident that these new postholders will be able to do the job? I for one am not clear what it is, but they will have to understand veterinary legislation and all the requirements for giving those certifications. Yet all they will receive is six hours of online training with an exam at the end. I understand that when the RCVS first discussed this with the department and with other departments, they were talking about post-training induction and a probationary period which would be under the direct supervision of a qualified vet. Having read some information online about the certification support officer, I can no longer find any indication of post-training induction or any probation under supervision. These certification support officers will be getting just six hours of online training, yet they will effectively be on the front line at a very important point, as the noble Lord, Lord Trees, says, where we have to assure the public that they can have confidence in public health and animal welfare.
In the supporting material the department makes it clear that it has made no estimation of how many certification support officers might be needed. Yet we know from the former Chief Veterinary Officer that there is an expected 325% increase in the need for veterinary certificates. So why has the department not done any estimation of how many new postholders we will need? Why is there not an impact assessment for this statutory instrument? That seems quite a necessary piece of information for Members of this House to have.
How many of these certification support officers do we now have in place? If we do leave in March, we are going to need these certification support officers, because we do not have enough vets to assure the public that their health, the health of people on the continent and the health of our animals are safe. That is an important point.
The noble Lord, Lord Trees, was right to raise the point about ensuring that our vets have the highest standards. I have been really proud that our country has in recent years been able to send our vets out to parts of Europe which have needed our expertise and our training to ensure that animals’ lives are bettered. We are talking here tonight about how we are going to register vets from other European countries in the UK. What is unclear is how the Government are going to get EU countries to register UK vets. Our vets do wonderful animal welfare work. I remember when I was at the RSPCA—many years ago now—we regularly sent vets out to countries outside Europe but also to places such as Greece, to deal with some of their equine and canine problems. If we cannot get our vets registered, how are our UK animal welfare organisations going to be able to send out our vets to carry on their work supporting animal welfare charities in Europe? It is possible that we will have to set up 27 bilateral agreements with all the other member states, and some of those countries may not be willing to have our vets going over there.
Lord Grantchester (Lab)
I am grateful to the Minister for setting out the purpose of these SIs so clearly and for meeting me and others before today to discuss the technical changes being made. I thank the RCVS and the BVA for the briefings they have sent. I declare my interest as a dairy farmer, and endorse the Minister’s words of appreciation of vets and the work they undertake.
I also thank the noble Lord, Lord Trees, for his professional viewpoint and endorsement of these SIs. As the Minister is aware, Labour does not oppose these SIs, which are required to ensure that the UK has an operational system for regulating veterinary qualifications from EEA veterinary schools and to enable inspectors to enforce certain animal welfare standards following the UK’s exit from the EU.
Additionally, the UK must enable the system for recognising farrier qualifications from the EEA, enforcing animal health regulations and approving courses for certain equine and veterinary procedures to remain operationally effective. Nevertheless, I have several concerns about the implications of these SIs—particularly the veterinary surgeons regulations—for business, animal health and welfare, and the public. The noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, was correct to raise concerns in her remarks.
Your Lordships’ House will appreciate the central role vets play in ensuring that standards are upheld in animal health and welfare, food safety and public health. The prospect of Brexit has raised concerns that there will not be the veterinary capacity to carry out these fundamental roles. In a no-deal scenario, the UK will require more work from vets to meet the increased demands for the certifications needed for export of animals and animal products, and for pet travel. The House of Commons Public Accounts Committee warned of the risk of UK exports of animals and animal products being delayed at the borders because of a shortage of vets, and was concerned that the department was,
“cavalier about enough suitably qualified staff to take on this work being available”.
An increasing shortage of vets was becoming apparent before the referendum in 2016. It is all the more worrying that, according to figures from the Major Employers Group, the veterinary profession is already reporting shortages in the UK of 11.5%. This is why we should be concerned that the changes in the SI may exacerbate an already challenging situation.
The Minister will be aware that EEA veterinary surgeons make up half of all new veterinary surgeons who register with the RCVS every year. EU nationals are critical to the UK, particularly in abattoirs, where 95% of vets are from the EU, responsible for upholding animal health, animal welfare, public health and trade. Worryingly, recent figures from the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons show that 32% of non-UK EU veterinary surgeons are considering a move back home and 18% are actively looking for work outside the UK, indicating that Brexit will exacerbate these shortages.
Does the Minister share my concern that a no-deal Brexit will exacerbate current shortages in the veterinary profession and create significant risks for trade, animal health and welfare, and food safety? What help are the Government providing to vets? What communication is being undertaken with them so that in six weeks’ time, in the event of a no-deal scenario, they are ready for an increased demand for export health certificates for animals and animal products?
The Explanatory Memoranda for both SIs say that,
“it is no longer considered appropriate to provide more favourable treatment”,
to EEA vets and farriers once reciprocal arrangements end. Can the Minister explain why these memoranda do not comment on whether, as with other EU exit regulations, there has been a policy change? Why has no consultation been undertaken with vets and businesses but only with the devolved Administrations? Indeed, the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, drew attention to the lack of an impact assessment.
The RCVS has advised that the SI will enable it to automatically register veterinarians in its veterinary schools if the school is approved or accredited by the European Association of Establishments for Veterinary Education—EAEVE. However, the RCVS will not register graduates from certain other EU veterinary schools where the RCVS does not have sufficient assurance of educational standards. In the case of farriers, I believe it is the Farriers Registration Council that has the equivalent role.
Public Bodies (Abolition of the Home Grown Timber Advisory Committee) Order 2015
Debate between Baroness Parminter and Lord Grantchester(9 years, 9 months ago)
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Baroness Parminter (LD)
My Lords, the Government are increasing woodland creation and management at a rapid rate. We hope to have a million more trees by the end of this Parliament, which is absolutely to be welcomed. However, we have long-standing domestic and international obligations to ensure that forestry is carried out in a sustainable manner. As the Minister highlighted in his opening remarks, the RSPB in its response to the commission highlighted concerns. The explanatory document makes it clear that the role of Ministers is to ensure that these commitments are delivered, stating that while,
“it is principally for the Forestry Commissioners to determine how they should be delivering their balancing duty between the management of forests and promotion, supply, sale, utilization and conversion of timber … it is ultimately for the relevant Governments’ Ministers in England and Scotland to intervene should the Commissioners be failing in their statutory remit”.
Therefore, while I am not opposed in any way to the abolition of the Home Grown Timber Advisory Committee, I felt that it was proper to take this opportunity to ask the Minister what plans the Government have to monitor the effects of the increase in trees and the management we are delivering to ensure that benefits are delivered for growth in the economy, people and the environment.
Lord Grantchester (Lab)
My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for his introduction to the order today. We agree with him that this advisory committee has gone the distance and that it serves no useful function, not having met since 2005, with its role having been devolved to national committees. I note that its former functions are now discharged through separate arrangements in each Administration and it has no property, rights or liabilities, so a transfer scheme under Section 23 of the Public Bodies Act 2011 is not required.
The Minister makes the order under the provisions of the Public Bodies Act 2011, and it meets the tests under that Act that it improves the exercise of public functions, does not remove any necessary protections and does not prevent any person from continuing to exercise any right or freedom.
Your Lordships’ Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee is content with the order and considers that the Minister’s department has handled the consultation process appropriately. I have asked the Minister on previous occasions when considering organisations under the Public Bodies Act to update the Committee on progress generally. If the Minister has any further news, that would be instructive for the Committee.
The measure today is non-contentious, the Minister’s department is to be congratulated on its presentation to the Committee, and I approve the order. Meanwhile, I would be grateful to hear from his department whether the forestry estate is now safe in public hands, and to hear what delayed his department from bringing forward legislation as promised.
Water Bill
Debate between Baroness Parminter and Lord Grantchester(10 years, 8 months ago)
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Lord Grantchester (Lab)
My Lords, I declare my interests as a farmer, thereby living in a rural area. Like the noble Earl, Lord Selborne, I am concerned with the effects generally on rural areas. While there are risks, I am not sure that this is the case here. We support the introduction of competition into the non-domestic market and take the issue of de-averaging very seriously. The noble Lord, Lord Deben, has spoken about how we must, indeed, be assiduous in making sure that price averaging is maintained as far as possible. However, we are satisfied that Ofwat has all the necessary regulatory tools to enable it to limit the effects of de-averaging.
Competition can also be about bringing innovation to the market in services and introducing efficiencies. However, we remain concerned that these amendments, which have been tabled by the noble Earl, Lord Selborne, might allow incumbent suppliers to constrain the development of future markets, thereby reducing the benefits that competition could bring.
Baroness Parminter (LD)
My Lords, in welcoming the proposals to open up retail competition in the business sector, on Second Reading I, too, raised my concern, like other noble Lords, about the potential for the de-averaging of prices. Ensuring that rural or remote businesses do not pay more than their urban counterparts is vital. We need to share costs for water fairly, regardless of location.
In Committee, the Minister reassured the House that the regulator had the necessary tools to limit the effects of de-averaging on customer charges. Having talked to Ofwat myself, I know that it confirms that this is its belief. Equally, the Consumer Council for Water, which has the interests of water customers at its core, commissioned Martin Cave to review the issue, and he has confirmed that Ofwat can facilitate upstream competition without de-averaging.
The Government will be producing charging guidance to Ofwat, which the Minister confirmed will explicitly say that de-averaging can occur only where it is in the best interests of customers. This Bill provides Parliament with the opportunity to debate and vote on that charging guidance, following a consultation process, so that we have the necessary safeguards to ensure that it does. Not only will Ofwat have to act in accordance with such guidance, but the Consumer Council for Water will be a statutory consultee in the preparation of Ofwat’s charging rules. This seems to me to be a reasonable defence against the potential for de-averaging of water bills, particularly given that as a final resort the Government can veto Ofwat’s charging rules if they do not reflect the guidance given.
On that basis, I am satisfied with the assurances given by my noble friend the Minister, and I will not support the amendments tabled by my noble friend Lord Selborne.
British Waterways Board (Transfer of Functions) Order 2012
Debate between Baroness Parminter and Lord Grantchester(12 years, 5 months ago)
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Lord Grantchester
I thank the Minister for his introduction of these two orders. If the Committee will allow me, I shall make a few remarks, reserving the right for my noble friend Lord Knight to respond from the Front Bench. I apologise and ask the Committee to forgive me if I have an eye on the clock and do not stay quite long enough to hear the Minister’s full response to the debate. I have pressing duties elsewhere.
From the perspective of south Cheshire, where I live and which along with neighbouring counties has extensive canals across it, the abolition of the IWAC is greeted mostly with resignation, neither receiving widespread support nor opposition. This would be in keeping with the low number of responses received to the consultation. In the past, I have been approached on several waterways issues, although on this one the Minister can be relaxed by and large. However, this lack of enthusiasm seems to be because there is a feeling among IWAC members that this order is a fait accompli, as evidenced when Defra announced the abolition of IWAC ahead of announcing the findings of the consultation about IWAC. I know that the Minister in the other place, Richard Benyon, had to issue apologies to Graham Evans MP for John Edmonds, the chairman of IWAC. Having said that, the arrangements, protections, appeals processes and so on will very much remain as before, so the change is viewed as largely cosmetic.
I know that all members of IWAC are very passionate about waterways and will always have their best interests at heart. I urge the Minister and his department to make full use of the knowledge and expertise of IWAC members, especially on such issues as volunteering, environmental protection, tourism and restoration, all of which will need to be addressed by the new Canal and River Trust. I know that members of IWAC, which is an independent, advisory and unpaid body, will give their time and expertise freely and would have gladly continued under the umbrella of IWAC. No doubt they will continue to do so. I am sure that the Minister would wish to confirm that his department recognises that that will continue to be the case, as these members would provide an excellent conduit to the CRT on behalf of all waterways users on all matters concerning the waterways.
Baroness Parminter
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his clarity in setting out a number of issues around this order. Given that there are quite a few speakers, I shall focus on one issue and invite the Minister to say a few more words at the end.
The issue that I wish to raise is how we will ensure that the new charity—the Canal and River Trust—reflects the full duties and responsibilities entrusted to the British Waterways by Parliament. I refer specifically to the duty towards those who live on waterways without a fixed mooring. I have checked the Charity Commission website and can find no mention for the new charity of duties to those whose homes are on the bodies of water that the charity will control. As such, the new charity’s purposes and responsibilities do not reflect some duties that currently exist in legislation and which British Waterways undertakes. This is not a newly contentious matter as, at the beginning of the 1990s, British Waterways sought to remove the rights of boat dwellers who did not have a permanent mooring. Parliament took a different view and the result was Section 17(3)(c)(ii) of the British Waterways Act 1995, which enables boats to be licensed without having a permanent mooring as long as they do not spend more than 14 days in one place. The committee is concerned that people who have had the right to live on the waterways but without a fixed mooring might lose those rights.
As my noble friend mentioned, the Lords Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee produced an excellent report on this recently. The evidence from Mr Evans of British Waterways to the committee says that the Canal and River Trust,
“will be a much more engaged organisation that will reflect the will of the people”.
However, reflecting the will of the people is not at all the same thing as recognising historic duties and responsibilities.
Having met representatives of the proposed new charity—as a former chief executive of a small conservation charity, I wish it well and know just how difficult it is to meet all the competing needs of stakeholders—I have no doubt that it intends through its council, its waterway partnerships and its specialist advisory groups to construct a far more open constitution than ever before on the waterways. However, engagement with some stakeholders is not always easy. Itinerant boat dwellers, for example, do not have a representative body, but their needs need to be considered alongside those of all other waterway stakeholders. To that end, it is illuminating that in the Government’s own explanatory document for the transfer, paragraph 7.16 highlights the “greater involvement” of,
“communities which live alongside waterways”,
and “waterways’ users” in how the waterways are to be managed in future, but excludes any mention of communities that actually live on the water.
I understand that any future by-laws from the charity will be subject to ministerial confirmation and I am grateful for the clarity from the Minister on that point. However, I would like it to be explicit on the record that the department will write to the CRT to ensure that the new charity must take all specific needs of stakeholders into account in developing future by-laws.
Further, it should be explicit that the grant agreement, which my noble friend also mentioned and which I think is for £800 million, accompanying the grant will set out the terms of the final agreement, and that it will make clear that the safeguard to consider the specific needs of all stakeholders, including itinerant boat dwellers, will be part of a condition for the grant being given.
To be clear, the House has a long history of ensuring that the rights of all stakeholders are upheld on the waterways. In the absence of any duty towards those people who live on the waterways in the new charity’s charitable remit, the Government must by other means ensure that this duty is safeguarded in the future. I welcome what the Minister has said, but I would like to be absolutely clear on the specifics of how the Government will assure that.
Energy Bill [HL]
Debate between Baroness Parminter and Lord Grantchester
Baroness Parminter
My Lords, when the Bill was first introduced in this House, we on these Benches—a number of us cannot be here today due to the rescheduling of business—welcomed it on the basis that it would help provide green jobs and move us towards meeting our legally binding carbon targets and achieving a low-carbon economy. However, like many other noble Lords, we also recognised that there could be further areas where the Bill could be strengthened. We have been heartened by the approach taken by the Minister, and I join other noble Lords in paying tribute to him for being prepared to listen to the many thoughtful comments that we in this House and another place have made during the progress of the Bill. It is a much strengthened Bill and it will do much to deliver on the Government’s commitment.
I thank the Minister particularly for listening to those of us who argued the need for a stated aim and ambition in the Bill, as well as the desperate need for an annual report. That is extremely welcome. I welcome also the further measures pertaining to consumer protection, in particular the early appointment of a body to manage the oversight and authorisation scheme. However, I support what the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Basildon, said about the consultation on how such a body would take forward its role. Consumer protection, as the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, made clear, will be fundamental to the success of the Bill. I hope that the Minister can give reassurance today that such consultation will take place, without it necessarily being in the legislation. Without that consumer protection, all the good words spoken in this House will come to naught.
Lord Grantchester
My Lords, I join others in thanking the Minister for his introductory remarks. I congratulate him on the way in which he has led the government team on this Bill and on the fact that his first Bill will soon be enacted.
With the Bill now on its last lap, and with all the opportunities that we have had to examine it both here and in the other place and the improvements that have been made at each stage, we are now able to see the coherence of the Green Deal. With today’s amendments clarifying certain aspects of it, I should like the Minister to confirm my interpretation of them and give some guidance on the Government’s thinking. I ask the House’s indulgence concerning Amendments 6 to 9, on disclosure documents, Amendment 10, on default, and Amendments 12 to 15, on data for responsible lending.
I take it from the amendments that it is the Green Deal provider and his or her finance company that makes the payment risk decision on whether to give the go-ahead to a green deal on a certain property. Under Amendments 6 to 9, the Green Deal provider has to disclose detailed information to a consumer taking over a property; under Amendment 10, clarity is provided regarding who is liable in a default situation; and under Amendments 12 to 15, the Green Deal provider can, following the consent of the present or intended future bill payer, be advised by the energy company collecting the Green Deal payment regarding their payment history.
From these Benches, we are keen to see the legislation and the Green Deal a success in improving the energy efficiency of the nation’s housing stock and buildings and reducing the demand for energy. Given that Green Deal improvements are to be paid for over 20 years, I can envisage certain properties generally populated on a more short-term basis becoming problems, even given that it may be the landlord in these circumstances who gives the go-ahead for the Green Deal improvements. Given that the Green Deal loan attaches to the property, and that there is an element of risk-taking on the part of several participants, will the ultimate assessment of risk be made on the property or on the bill payer, who could pass on the payment? Has the Minister sense-checked the Green Deal in the marketplace and seen the results of the pilot scheme in Sutton, where nearly half the homeowners who expressed interest subsequently turned down the opportunity to participate?
Energy Bill [HL]
Debate between Baroness Parminter and Lord Grantchester
Baroness Parminter
I add our support for the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, in raising this important issue about creating a level playing field between the respective players in using the marine environment and the seabed. I also thank him for highlighting again, as he has done so eloquently in the past, the risk that not tackling this issue of the leases that can be rescinded by the Crown Estate will cause huge problems for future investment in renewable energy. While they may have taken six years to potter around on this issue, the Government know—as we in this House all know—that, if they are to meet their targets on renewable energy, this issue has to be resolved very quickly to get the future investment in renewable energy.
My slight concern with this amendment is that it seeks to draw out one particular problem out of the complex number of issues that make up the jigsaw of coexistence between the respective oil and gas companies and those involved in renewable energy. As RenewableUK said,
“efforts to work together to prevent problems are far more likely to succeed if a fair and clear framework for co-operation is established”.
While I support this amendment—because it is right to raise this important issue that leases can be rescinded—I am concerned that it draws out only one particular issue in the jigsaw. If we are to get an equitable solution that all parties can agree to, there is still merit in looking at all those issues together.
Therefore, if the Minister is not minded to accept this amendment, I and other Members of this House would be grateful to know that the ministerial team is working now, with all parties, to agree such a fair and clear framework for co-operation that covers all the issues, not just the—admittedly important—issues around the termination of leases. If that framework can be agreed, which I hope can be achieved during the passage of the Bill as it goes to another place and comes back, that would give Members in this House the confidence that the Government recognise this issue, which has been raised by both sides of the House. The present state of affairs, whereby the leases can be rescinded for offshore wind if oil and gas companies come ahead with proposals, is not satisfactory, will not deliver the Government’s objectives for renewable energy and does not create a level playing field.
Lord Grantchester
My Lords, it is important to promote the coexistence of UK oil and gas interests with offshore renewable energy expansion. We all want to maximise the growth of both sectors in the UK and thereby to enable the UK to benefit from sustainable electricity supply, strong oil and gas revenues and job creation in both sectors. As I understand it, there is an imbalance in the rights under the lease, according to whether the lease is in the hands of the oil and gas industry or the renewable wind industry. Where the oil and gas industry has an existing lease from the Crown Estate, the renewable industry can encroach on that territory only through commercial negotiation. Where the renewable industry has the lease, a clause in that lease gives the Secretary of State powers to terminate offshore wind-farm leases in favour of oil and gas and does not specify whether compensation would be due or how that amount would become due. This causes alarm in the renewable offshore wind industry that it could stifle investment in developing sites.
My noble friend brings forward his amendment to resolve the situation through the operation of a compensation scheme to cover the situation where the Secretary of State may be minded to terminate a lease in favour of the oil and gas industry. This scheme would give renewable developers the assurance that they feel they need to overcome reluctance to invest in developing a lease where it could be thought encroachment may happen from oil and gas operations. We understand there has never been—and, indeed, there is unlikely to be—such an occurrence. However, the renewable industry has the perception that the possibility of an early termination is detrimental to its financing and the exploitation of leases. This amendment seeks to end that uncertainty and uneasiness in the investor market.
I am sure the Minister would want to find a way to end the antagonism between the two key developers in the operation of leases. Can he give further assurances today, or even offer to facilitate a meeting with his department, so that the two protagonists could agree and cement a way forward?
Energy Bill [HL]
Debate between Baroness Parminter and Lord Grantchester(13 years, 10 months ago)
Grand CommitteeRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Baroness Parminter
I support my noble friend Lady Maddock in her amendments, which seek to extend the reach of the Bill to those who live under short-term residential leases. While the Bill will ensure that the majority of those in the private rented sector will benefit from the Green Deal, about 1.5 million properties with long residential leases are outside the scope of this Bill. Many of those leases require the permission of the landlords for home energy improvements. In some cases, there may be an absolute prohibition on such improvements. I am aware of a leaseholder who is looking to make a home energy improvement of fitting a new gas boiler, but because that requires an external flue he is unable to get his landlord’s consent.
I accept that there are issues around long residential leases. I am also very much aware—and I am grateful—that the department is aware of those issues, but I hope that the department might use the period of the proposed review of the private rented sector to look closely at the issue of long residential leases and at how we might extend the Green Deal to the 1.5 million people who at present have long residential leases and are currently excluded from the benefits of the Green Deal.
Lord Grantchester
I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Maddock, for bringing forward her amendments. I echo her opening words on the private rented sector, as we on this side of the House have also received considerable approaches from organisations that want us to look diligently at that sector. We take encouragement that the Government are now looking at those issues. Like the noble Baroness, Lady Maddock, we think that several such properties could be adequately improved at no great cost. We have also received a lot of submissions asking that we look carefully at this issue.
We also thank the noble Baroness for bringing the attention of the Committee to the issues around the Housing Act. On this side, we initially thought that all eventualities would be covered, so we thank her for drawing our attention to that. Along with the noble Baroness, we would wish, in so far as is possible, for all housing, including rural housing, to be brought within the ambit of the Bill. Will the Minister confirm that other types of housing, including in the mining industry, will be covered under the provisions?