Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill

Baroness Oppenheim-Barnes Excerpts

Monday 2nd December 2013 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Oppenheim-Barnes]

56LG: Clause 98, page 70, line 46, at end insert—
“( ) after subsection (2) there is inserted—“(2A) The owner of a dog commits an offence if they, or the person for the time being in charge of the dog, are not able to control the dog in a public place whether or not it is muzzled or kept on a lead.””

[Baroness Oppenheim-Barnes (Con)]

My Lords, I listened with great interest to the previous debates and would once again like to pay tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Redesdale, for everything that he has done in this matter. I only wish his measure was on the statute book. We would, perhaps, not be having these debates.

I was also interested in Amendment 56MA, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Gale, which has already been debated, because what I am attempting to do in my amendment is very simple. Perhaps at Third Reading, it could be tabled with part of the amendment tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Gale. I have already spoken to the Public Bill Office, and that would be a possibility because my amendment does not deal with penalties.

I want to define very simply what a responsible person is. The owner of the dog, which will be in a public place, should know the degree to which somebody they are asking to be in charge of the dog or dogs meets the requirements in my amendment. They should be capable of being responsible and in charge of the dog, whether it is on a lead or not. Many people can very satisfactorily control dogs that are not on leads. Likewise, with regard to muzzling, I want defined once and for all whose liability it is, what the requirements are and, above all, who an appropriate person might be. This is only a first step in a still-unfolding problem. I wish it was not. People have seen dogs—their own or other people’s—practically shredded in public places and parks. Very often, those in charge of them are attacked at the same time. It happens too often, but perhaps not sufficiently often for it to be an even bigger public issue than it is now. The potential is always great.

At the time it happens you need the reinforcements immediately. I live in a very well known park in London where there are big notices saying “no cyclists” and, in that particular area, “no dogs”, because children play on the grass in the summer. I have yet to see a single cyclist or dog owner being stopped. That is one small area, and I have not seen any very bad incidents. I have certainly encountered them with my own dogs and with other members of my family. In each case, the outcome has been ghastly and has lived with us and the remaining dogs for the rest of our lives.

I had the interesting experience of my daughter’s dog being seriously attacked in America. The other dog’s owner had no control of it and did not even attempt to control it. They rescued their dog and went straight to the police. The police came immediately and made an order on the spot for that owner never to have that dog not on a lead or not under complete control. I was very impressed with the speed with which that action was taken. My daughter never wanted to walk anywhere near that house again. I hope my noble friend Lord Lyell will forgive me for being jolly pleased that I am not his neighbour.

[Lord Lyell]

I reassure my noble friend that these dogs are wonderful so long as you take firm action. If she wishes to visit me, I assure her that she will escape totally unharmed and much loved.

[Baroness Oppenheim-Barnes]

My noble friend knows how highly I regard him, but I really do not think I shall accept his invitation, which was made so gallantly.

I hope that my noble friend the Minister will have realised that this problem has continued to grow and grow since the 1991 Act, the passage of which I vaguely remember taking part in. The great problem with that Act was the naming of certain types of dog. It was also mentioned, at Second Reading, that there are now dog psychiatrists and that naughty dogs can sometimes have their whole behaviour changed. I have known only one of those and I will, wisely, not give the Committee his name. He was brought in because my two were little puppies and we had to find out who the strong one was. The strong one took one look at him, did not fancy him very much and turned away, taking no notice. The little flibbertigibbet did all these little clever things in front of him and he said, “Ooh, that is the main dog. That dog is certainly going to be the leader of the pack”. He subsequently wrote a chapter in his book in which he named my two “the terrible twins”. He based this on an incident when I was walking around with them on the lead at the local dog show. They had seen a Weimaraner that had attacked them in the past and they must have been very nervous. Everybody was laughing and when I looked around it was because one was on top of the other. That is why he called them the “terrible Oppenheim twins”. If you ever pick that book up, please put it down again and do not buy it.

This is a serious debate, on a serious matter, on which there is enormously strong feeling about things that can never be put right afterwards. I implore my noble friend to take note of what has been said and to try to meet, before Third Reading, the more modest proposals debated this evening.

[Lord Redesdale]

My Lords, I support and thank my noble friend Lady Oppenheim-Barnes, who has been a stalwart in the campaign on this over many years. There are problems with the amendment but it raises an important issue that we will come back to. After many years of discussion, the issue remains that some people use dogs as a way of intimidating others. This can take place even if the dog is on the lead and in a muzzle, because the person is using the dog for effect, so the muzzle is not a barrier to intimidation. I understand that this is a very difficult area to legislate in, but I hope the Minister will take into account that intimidation can be caused even if the dog is on a lead and muzzled.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lady Oppenheim-Barnes for moving this amendment and other noble Lords for their contributions.

The purpose of the amendment is to extend the definition of “dangerously out of control”, found in the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991 and used to determine whether an offence has been committed under Section 3 of that Act. It would read so that the owner or person in charge of the dog would be liable for prosecution where the dog was not under their control.

Let me be explicit. Where a dog has been dangerously out of control, regardless of whether injury has been inflicted, the owner or person in charge may be liable under Section 3 of the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991. “Dangerously out of control” is defined in Section 10 of that Act and is taken to mean,

“any occasion on which there are grounds for reasonable apprehension that it will injure any person, whether or not it actually does so”.

That would cover some of the incidents to which this amendment would apply.

Furthermore, the Government agree that there should be proactive intervention before a dog becomes dangerously out of control. Where an individual does not have the dog sufficiently under their control, action should be taken to avoid escalation to those more serious incidents. The new anti-social behaviour measures will allow for such action by using the community protection notice and, in some cases, the injunction to prevent nuisance and annoyance. Those early intervention measures can make requirements of the owner to ensure that the dog is brought under control, its welfare improved and public safety protected; we have discussed the impact of such measures on conventional anti-social behaviour, and just now in the case of dogs. Requirements might include attending training or behaviour classes, for example.

Should the out-of-control behaviour be of sufficient concern, it will also be possible to make a complaint to the magistrate’s court under Section 2 of the Dogs Act 1871. Based on the evidence before it and using the civil burden of the balance of probabilities, the court can impose an order that requires the dog to be muzzled, on a lead or, in the most serious cases, destroyed.

Authorities may use the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991 where a dog is dangerously out of control, and it is right that we maintain that threshold for this criminal offence. In other cases, where a dog is more generally out of control, authorities may require the owner to be subject to the new measures, such as the CPN introduced in the Bill, or may use the Dogs Act 1871. Given that there are a number of ways to address an incident such as the one described by my noble friend, and in the spirit of the Bill of reducing duplicate legislation, I ask my noble friend to withdraw her amendment. I agree that it may well be useful if I talk to my noble friend Lord De Mauley, who is not able to be here this evening, about the possibility of meeting to discuss these dog measures some time before the next stage. However, I hope that my noble friend will withdraw her amendment.

[Baroness Oppenheim-Barnes]

I am very grateful to my noble friend for his extremely helpful remarks, particularly in relation to what is already in the 1991 Act, which might be one of the easiest ways to address this. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 56LG withdrawn.

Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill

Baroness Oppenheim-Barnes Excerpts

Tuesday 29th October 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Oppenheim-Barnes (Con)]

My Lords, as a speaker in the gap, I propose to say only a very few words. I am here principally to speak about the part of the Bill that deals with dangerous dogs. I particularly wanted to listen to the noble Lord, Lord Redesdale, whose legislation in the past I have supported wholeheartedly, especially the part that seemed to deal, for the first time, with dangerous dogs attacking other dogs. I had personal experience of that when, in the park, my two Jack Russells were first threatened and then finally attacked by a Weimaraner, which had only a little girl to hold the lead. When the case arrived in court, the magistrate ruled that we could use the park at different times. However, he concluded that, in his view, there was no such thing as an innocent Jack Russell.

The Dogs Trust, which we all highly respect, has a number of concerns about specific information relating to the regulations and how they will be interpreted. It is not yet satisfied that the regulations will meet all its wishes and requirements. I think that that will be something that we pursue fully in Committee and I look forward to that.

Finally, being the “wedge” speaker, I have had the benefit of listening to many interesting speeches given by people with many years of expertise and I have learnt a good deal. I think it is fair to say that the glory of your Lordships’ House rests in debates of this nature. I wish that they could be more publicly quoted than they are, as I know that appreciation would follow.

Equality Act 2010 (Specific Duties) Regulations 2011

Baroness Oppenheim-Barnes Excerpts

Tuesday 6th September 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Oppenheim-Barnes]

My Lords, I congratulate my noble friend Lord Waddington on moving this amendment and on the moderate and thoughtful manner in which he moved it, giving examples of situations widely ridiculed at the time. It is not a fatal amendment. I wish that it was. I would like to get rid of the regulations.

I am going to clarify my position on the issue in the form of a confession. Some 40 years ago in the other place I was the sponsor of two separate pieces of anti-discrimination legislation. However, it was made clear at the time that these were not in favour of positive discrimination, which is a very different matter. I therefore oppose the regulations on a number of specific grounds. The objective of the regulations is absolutely right if the intention is to prevent victimisation, but it is not right because it is not about equality. It is about inequality of opportunity because it requires a protective element for some but not for others who may in fact be best suited for the job. They are not to be considered equally. They are to be considered after the protected characteristic groups. These groups are very wide and very varied, giving special protection to a wide and varied group. That is positive discrimination, which is neither fair nor equal in regulations stemming from what is the so-called Equality Act.

I emphasise my support for the stated object, that anybody should be given a chance, whatever protected characteristic they may have, as long as they can do the job better than or at least as well as other applicants who do not comply with these characteristics. There is always a chance that some bright young body might claim to have one of these characteristics in order to be considered for the job more favourably. This would only enhance the unfairness. We can only imagine how much these requirements are going to cost local authorities and their ratepayers to enact. How much additional staff will be needed? What burdens will be placed on staff who are already there? How are they to represent their reasons for not employing an able applicant who does not meet the requirements in the regulations but is after all the best person for the job?

The regulations under the Equality Act’s Explanatory Memorandum 10/4 states that this new version, presented to your Lordships’ House today, initiates various savings compared with the previous regulations of up to £205 million over 10 years. That would probably be the cost over the same period of the adoption of the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Low, if it was accepted. All of us care about the fairness with which people are treated and given jobs and about human rights, but then we look at the Equality and Human Rights Commission, which cost £70 million to set up, was recently condemned by the National Audit Office for not presenting its accounts in an acceptable manner and recently squandered more than £800,000 on a website that did not work. Is this the sort of pattern we wish to impose on local authorities? Again, I emphasise that no one wants to condone unfair discrimination in any walk of life. However, I am not at all sure that these regulations will not lead to discrimination that is more unfair than the very discrimination they seek to prevent.

[The Earl of Listowel]

I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Waddington, for tabling this amendment and for the work he has done in this area for many years now. I join him in expressing deep concern about what has happened to those five Catholic adoption agencies. The previous Government and this Government are well aware that voluntary adoption agencies have the best outcomes for children. They provide the best stability and the longer term support for those children and their families to see that those children do well. It is a matter of very great regret that those five agencies have closed. Will the Minister assure me that the guidance makes clear that the principles in the Children Act 1989 and the Children Act 2004 are paramount, that the interests of the child are paramount and that where it is considered that it is in the best interests of children not to be placed with same-sex couples, agencies can do so? I believe it is a perfectly tenable position. I have worked in this House on child welfare for 12 years now and, in my view, it is not generally in the child’s best interests to be placed in that situation. I may be wrong in that view, but there are many professionals who share it. It is not proven that it is safe or in the best interests of children to place them in such settings. I think Professor Golombok—I hope I have her name correctly—has done the most work in this area, but she looks only to the age of 18 and the sample of families examined is quite small. I should be most grateful to the Minister if she could assure me that the guidance will be clear about the paramountcy of the welfare of children, about agencies’ ability to decide where that interest lies and that we will not be seeing a repeat of what happened with those five Catholic adoption agencies.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I do not think that the Act suggested that people should be appointed if they are not properly qualified, or that the best person for the job should not have it. The Act said that there should be equal opportunities, so that whether you are black, white, disabled, yellow, orange, gay, lesbian, or heterosexual, you should have equality of opportunity, and the best—

[Baroness Oppenheim-Barnes]

My Lords, the Act refers specifically to protected definitions of people. The very word “protected” means that they are going to be treated more equally than others.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

No, my Lords. It defines certain disadvantages, but it does not mean to say that some people are more equal than others. We are not in an Animal Farm situation. We are saying that every individual has their intrinsic worth as a human being, and that they should be treated in an equal manner and given equality of opportunity. That is what I believe we are all—or most of us—agreed upon in this Chamber.