Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act 2019: Section 3(5)

Baroness O'Loan Excerpts

Thursday 17th October 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness O'Loan (CB)]

My Lords, I will talk about abortion and the return of the Assembly. It is really important that we remember why we are debating this provision; it is because of the recommendations of the report produced by the CEDAW committee, which were deemed to be so imperative because of concern for women’s rights in Northern Ireland. When moving the provision that became Section 9, the honourable Member for Walthamstow in another place said that she wanted women in Northern Ireland to have the same rights as women in England and Wales.

We need to keep this in mind as we consider the Secretary of State’s report and what it says about the period between 22 October 2019 and 31 March 2020 if regulations are not laid before then. The report acknowledges that during this period the law will not be quite all that it should be and seeks to deal with that problem by saying that,

“there are no plans for additional services to be routinely available before 31 March”.

That is a curious statement. It seems to be predicated on the thoughts that if additional abortion services were made available they would be provided by the government -controlled National Health Service, and that the Government can prevent abortions being provided in the new legal void by simply instructing the NHS not to provide them.

There is a huge problem with that approach, which the noble Lord, Lord Morrow, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay, have referred to: that the NHS will not be the only body which will be able to provide abortions lawfully during this period. Unless the Assembly is restored, Sections 58 and 59 of the Offences against the Person Act will be repealed and only two laws engaging with abortion in Northern Ireland will remain. Under the Criminal Justice Act (Northern Ireland) 1945, as noble Lords have heard, abortions cannot take place lawfully from the time at which a child is capable of being born alive. The presumption in the Criminal Justice Act is that that is 28 weeks, but we know that babies now routinely survive at 22 weeks. It means that there will be a legislative void regarding abortions until that point.

Abortion procedures are dangerous, so responsible governance provides legislation regulating how they should be provided. In England, for example, every private abortion clinic must have a licence. The licence is not a generic clinic licence but a specific abortion clinic licence, and clinics have to perform to required operating standard procedures. Under Regulation 20 of the Care Quality Commission (Registration) Regulations 2009 there are requirements relating to the termination of pregnancies, including an obligation to ensure that two medical opinions are provided before an abortion is carried out, a restriction on who can carry out abortions after twenty weeks, because of the risks, and a requirement for detailed records to be kept.

The English legislation very properly recognises that the procedure of abortion requires abortion-specific regulation of both the premises and the procedure. In addition, under the Health and Social Care Act 2008 and associated regulations, any person who offers or undertakes abortion carries out a “regulated activity” and has to be registered with the CQC. Subject to limited exceptions, it is a criminal offence to carry out a regulated activity unless you are registered for the provision of that activity. So in England the practitioner, the location and the process are all subject to regulation. None of this regulation, designed to protect women and their unborn children, will apply to private abortion clinics in Northern Ireland which, unless the Assembly is restored, will be free to operate until regulations are laid.

From Tuesday, any provider of medical abortion services by a doctor at an independent clinic has to be registered under the Health and Personal Social Services (Quality, Improvement and Regulation) (Northern Ireland) Order 2003. If it is registered, the clinic will be inspected and its services will be quality assured, but only as generic clinic services. No specific reference is made to standards for abortion. Moreover, this is the real danger: if the regulations say that if one medical professional who works for the National Health Service works in the clinic, it does not have to be regulated or assessed by the RQIA, so there is lots of scope for private abortion clinics employing one registered medical practitioner working for the NHS not to be subject to any regulation at all. Even worse, there will be no prohibition on anyone without medical qualifications providing abortion services in any context, and no prohibition on women accessing abortion as long as they give consent. I have to remind noble Lords that if there is a challenge as to whether a woman has given consent, it can be determined only after the event.

As the noble Lord, Lord Morrow, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay, referred to, we have seen legal opinions on the law in this area. David Lock, an eminent lawyer in the field of NHS and medical legislation and a former Labour MP, has written this:

“A person who was not a doctor (whether a nurse, other clinical professional or with no qualifications) who provides abortion services outside any form of clinic, agency or establishment does appear to not need to be registered under the 2003 Order. Further, there does not appear to be any other regulatory regime that will apply to such a person or any law which means that such a person will necessarily be acting unlawfully”.


He concedes that other criminal offences may be committed depending on the precise facts. He also says:

“In general, under the common law it is lawful to do anything unless there is a specific legal prohibition against doing that thing. Thus an individual is entitled to carry out any form of activity unless the activity is regulated by law and the regulatory framework imposes restrictions on the way in which the activity can be undertaken”.


There will be no such regulation and no framework for Northern Ireland until we see what the regulations say, possibly as late as 31 March 2020. David Lock goes on to say:

“It follows that an unintended consequence of section 9 of the 2019 Act may be the possible return of unregulated ‘backstreet abortion’”.


I know that this was discussed yesterday in the other place and I heard the Minister, but I think that the other place was labouring under a misunderstanding about the actual state of the law in Northern Ireland after 22 October if the Assembly and Executive are not formed. That is why I have set out the law as clearly as I can. This point was also raised last month by the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission when it referred to the fact that the,

“likelihood of individuals resorting to potentially unsafe practices remains while prosecutions under the criminal law have been removed and the healthcare process has not been established”.

If even one mother or one baby suffers as a consequence of this legislative void, this Parliament will be responsible, as will be those who do not return to the Assembly. That is a very sombre thought.

In addition, the new guidelines issued by the Secretary of State state that,

“there is no expectation that general practitioners (GPs) will prescribe medication for early medical abortion”.

Such medication should be taken only up to nine weeks and six days of pregnancy. In England and Wales, this medication is available from private services because GPs do not provide abortion services. David Lock QC has also advised that,

“there is no legal bar on a GP issuing a prescription for medication for an abortion (either privately or as part of NHS funded care). These are ‘prescription only medicines’ which a GP would be fully entitled to prescribe for his or her patient if the GP considered that it was clinically appropriate to do so”.

So there will be no legal bar on women asking GPs for medication. The Government’s expectation therefore seems irrelevant.

What then of the rights of conscientious objection, which are required to give effect to the protection of human rights of medical practitioners? A couple of weeks ago, over 800 healthcare professionals wrote to the Secretary of State to oppose the imposition of this new regime, saying,

“our consciences demand that we not be silent”.

The medics say that they,

“wish to make known our opposition to the imminent introduction of abortion in Northern Ireland”,

and that their,

“concern throughout is for pregnant mothers and their unborn children”.

The only reference to conscience in the recent report by the Secretary of State is that current UK law permits conscientious objection only in “hands-on situations”. This is entirely inadequate—there is no legal definition of hands-on situations. However, it is also inadequate to suggest, as the report does, that medical practitioners should consult the GMC and other professional bodies. The reality is that that does not provide any guidance to medical practitioners during the lacuna period from 22 October. Of course, it is not possible to provide such guidance in the absence of regulation. The UK professional guidance is predicated upon compliance with existing law. That law does not apply here.

As the noble Lord, Lord Morrow, said, the situation is entirely unnecessary; government could have behaved entirely differently. When Back-Benchers come up with proposals that have dangerous unintended consequences —I am absolutely sure that neither the Minister here, the Secretary of State nor anybody else intended that this situation would prevail—it is the job of departments and Ministers to point out those dangerous unintended consequences. It is also their job to point out that the dangers can be avoided with a proper understanding of the imperative—or lack of it, as I would argue—attached to the findings of the UN committees. Government should have insisted that our existing legislation should not be repealed until such a time as there was new legislation to take its place.

With that in mind, I introduced my Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act 2019 (Amendment) Bill the day after the Act received Royal Assent to change the date of the repeal of Sections 58 and 59 to the time when the new regulations are introduced, thereby doing away with this dangerous five-month period, and seeking the consent of a majority of MLAs to any new proposed regulations tabled under the Act. In this sorry, sad, dangerous situation, the Secretary of State must do everything he can between now and Monday to get the Assembly Executive up and running by Monday. The political parties in Northern Ireland are under an even greater obligation to do so.

As we speak, some 26,100 people have signed my petition to the Secretary of State and to MLAs calling for the recall of the Northern Ireland Assembly and for it to become operational. A petition by unionist MLAs has been laid for the recall of the Assembly on Monday, as the noble Lord, Lord Morrow, informed the House. The Assembly will now be recalled on Monday and for the first time in over 1,000 days, at this time of extreme urgency—not just because of the abortion provisions but because of Brexit and all the other things that affect Northern Ireland so terribly—the Assembly will gather. There are people who say this is a political stunt, but the people of Northern Ireland have been calling for the Assembly to reconvene for years. This is no political stunt. As I said in my letter to the Secretary of State on Monday:

“We need our own legislature to deal with matters relating to Brexit, to all the numerous and urgent problems which exist in Northern Ireland, and most of all to deal with the difficulty of the situation with regard to abortion if the assembly and executive are not reformed”.


I appeal to all those who do not share my views on this matter to study the David Lock and Ian Wise opinions to which the noble Lord, Lord Morrow, referred, and to recognise the hazards to the safety of women and their unborn children, of which I have spoken tonight, and so to restore the Executive. An opinion poll just released by LucidTalk shows that 60% of people in Northern Ireland are concerned about the prospect of unregulated abortion for one day, let alone five months.

I cannot express too strongly the fact that the 26,000-plus people who signed the petition come from all parts, all parties and all communities in Northern Ireland and represent so many nationalities. I have watched the signatures rolling in. I can see the different nations of the world represented among the signatories. I can see people I know and do not know, but because of the way we work in Northern Ireland, I know that they come from all parts of the community.

I say to Northern Ireland’s elected politicians: respond to this opportunity; respond to the call to appoint an Executive and get back into government. I know that only our politicians can do this. We, the people, have waited long enough.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Alderdice (LD)]

My Lords, I am grateful for the opportunity to speak briefly in the gap. I declare my interest as a medical graduate from Northern Ireland and formerly a medical practitioner in Northern Ireland.

Lest the House be in any way misled, we should be clear that there is no prospect of the resumption of an Executive at the beginning of next week. The recall of the Assembly has been at the request of unionist Members only and an Executive cannot be formed on that basis. Let us be clear: it is not going to happen.

I refer to the issue of the Ulster University graduate medical school in Derry/Londonderry. I have three brief points. First, let us not forget that the decision to locate the University of Ulster’s main campus at Coleraine is still a sore point for many people in Derry/Londonderry. It was one of the great aggravations of the 1960s and it has not gone away. Whether the Ulster University graduate medical school is established is not a neutral question. It is still a painful question that refers back to the 1960s decision, which was a bad decision.

Secondly, it is not purely an education and health decision, as implied by the report. It is also an economic decision, because one value in having graduate entry for medical students is that it attracts people from other parts of the world who are prepared to come and pay substantial fees. For example, many of the young psychiatrists I see now from the United States of America as part of their training have graduated from Caribbean medical schools and completed their training in the United States. Many Caribbean islands with good medical training facilities, from the University of the West Indies, for example, are able to do very well, so this is an economic question as well.

Thirdly, it is not possible simply to turn on a tap for a medical school. Graduate entry occurs at only one time of the year. If an opportunity for graduates to come in next year or the year after is lost, it will be at least another year or more before there is another opportunity. Since this has been waiting for some time, the kind of academics who were prepared to set up a school will move on if it keeps being delayed. I appeal to the Minister: sadly, in the likelihood that we will not have a devolved Executive, can this issue not be looked at again and pushed for? It is not a matter of dispute in Northern Ireland. People right across the community, even at Queen’s University, want to see this development. Can it not be looked at and implemented soon?

[Baroness O’Loan]

Is the noble Lord aware that nationalists have indicated that they will attend Stormont on Monday. I do not know whether there will be an Executive, but I do know that nationalist politicians will be there and I encourage every politician to be there.

[Lord Alderdice]

I am aware that many may attend. That is not the point. The issues being referred to cannot be decided by the Assembly in the absence of an Executive. Anybody who knows about the politics of Northern Ireland—and the noble Baroness does—knows perfectly well that this is not yet the time for some people to participate in the Executive. That is political reality and it is ill advised for the Chamber to feel that another possibility for next Tuesday is a real one.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

My Lords, I begin where I think we need to begin. Everyone in this House are of the same view that we need to restore an Executive in Northern Ireland. There is no doubt about the importance of that, not just going forward, but for what could have been achieved, which we will never know. However, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland has been working tirelessly, and I am pleased that the noble Lord, Lord Murphy, has recognised that. He has been straining every sinew to try to bring the two principal parties and all the other parties together. In response to the question asked by the noble Baroness, Lady Humphreys, we have made and will make every effort to bring the five parties together to move that forward.

The challenge, however, is that the obligations of the Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act fall on the shoulders of the United Kingdom Government early next week. While the Assembly may seek to convene—I do not doubt it will do so—and while I do not doubt that there may be a broader base of attendance than might have been expected, it is unlikely to be able to deliver on those issues that some noble Lords have wished it to do this evening for the reasons raised by my noble friend Lord Caine and the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice.

I say that with some regret because we all recognise the value of that. As has been pointed out by the noble Lord, Lord Murphy, this is a time when we would have valued that information. But I do not believe that, unless we make some serious progress on Monday, we will face anything other than the reality that the United Kingdom Government will take forward their obligations. That is how the Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act was formed. We did so recognising that, once we had taken on the obligation, we would see it through to its fulfilment. Whether that is deemed right or wrong, it is the law of the land and is exactly what we will do.

I shall take some of the points in reverse, as that may be easier. In response to the question from the noble Baroness, Lady Humphreys, about donations, the issue is that none of the parties has expressed any change in its view about backdating. The sister party of the Liberal Democrats here, the Alliance Party, has pushed strongest and most consistently for backdating, but other parties, notably the DUP and UUP, were keen for this to be a point going forward. Some of the other parties did not express a view on this, but none has changed its view. I am happy to write again to the noble Baroness with more details, but in the recognition that we need to bring this area to rest. I will write on that point.

My noble friend Lord Bates kindly brought the issue back to where we need to focus, for we are here today doing something that should be done elsewhere. As a number of noble Lords have observed, we have seen a deterioration of the situation in Northern Ireland, which is much to be regretted. The political vacuum that exists now will continue to be a problem. What we are doing here today is trying to address certain issues, in but a small moment in time. In truth, until an Executive is formed and the devolution situation works, we will not have adequate governance in Northern Ireland.

I hope that the deal spoken of by the noble Lord, Lord Murphy, delivers for Northern Ireland. I hope that that happening will take away one of the principal obstacles to the parties coming back together. We should be under no illusion that Brexit has been a factor in the parties’ approach to the situation. It would be remiss of me not to point that out. I therefore hope that a deal will remove one of the stumbling blocks—not the only one—and allow those parties to return to government, but, at present, we look forward to that, rather than being certain that it will happen.

I now turn to the conspicuous and very serious issue that has been raised by a number of noble Lords. That is abortion. I state at the outset that I believe this matter should have been taken forward by a devolved Executive. I am happy to put that on record once again. It will not be so; it will be taken forward by us. We have debated this more than once, and I want to correct some of the statements that I believe have been made in error.

The five-month period we talked about is the most challenging aspect of this. At the outset, we need to recognise that abortions in Northern Ireland can take place only in a registered clinic. Some have said that this can simply be circumvented if there is but one NHS employee. That is not true. The clinic still has to be registered and the NHS employee taking part needs the permission of the NHS commissioners. That has to be done formally. Therefore, this is not carte blanche for people to create an opportunity in secret, whether in a front street, a middle street or a back street. It was not designed to be that and it will not be that.

[Baroness O'Loan]

Perhaps when the Minister gets away from the House he could look again at Regulation 5.

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

I am very happy to state categorically that in any clinic, even if it has one NHS employee, that employee must have the permission of the NHS commissioners. I will write on this point and lodge the letter in the Library to make it very clear that we eliminate this as an issue that might percolate back to Northern Ireland in a nefarious and bad fashion. Equally, it is important to stress that, should there be an attempt by any private clinic to seek registration, it will not be a simple or quick procedure. Certain obligations must be met, and they will be met very carefully during this period. It is important to stress that anyone who seeks to open a clinic that is not registered or that operates without due diligence will be subject to the criminal law, and that law will be broken if they do that. It is important to appreciate that in Northern Ireland.

Further, any independent practitioner who might wish to set up a practice must register with the Care Quality Commission. Therefore, again, it is not simply a question of wish fulfilment; they must undertake legal obligatory steps. The premises would need to be established and investigated, and it would be necessary to ensure that they met those criteria. I note that the period that we are talking of is five months. I also note that almost anything involving bureaucracy does not get resolved in five months.

It is also important to set out very clearly that guidance has already been issued by the GMC and the royal colleges to the practitioners in Northern Ireland so that they are aware that, should we be unable to form an Executive, those are the conditions under which they will operate. Any noble Lord who wishes to see those conditions can consult the Library or go to GOV.UK. We have been very clear and transparent, ensuring that they are clear.

[Baroness O'Loan]

I am very sorry and I do not intend to interrupt the Minister repeatedly but I would like to ask whether he accepts that the GMC guidance is predicated upon the Abortion Act 1967 and the obligations of doctors under that Act. In fact, the GMC is not a regulatory body or a law enforcement body, and practitioners in Northern Ireland cannot be asked to be bound by legislation that does not apply or guidance relating to legislation that does not apply.

Irish Border: Checks and Customs Arrangements

Baroness O'Loan Excerpts

Tuesday 1st October 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

It is not the intention of this Government to have Northern Ireland treated any differently from any other part of this, our United Kingdom.

[Baroness O'Loan (CB)]

My Lords, in a situation where there is no technology to deal with the interface between the European Union and, in this case, the United Kingdom, and recognising as the Minister does the need for the economic interests of Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland to be protected, there must be a mechanism to allow manufacturing and trade to continue uninterrupted on 31 October and 1 November. Surely the Minister has to agree that, in the absence of other ideas—and we have not really heard any—the compromise must be a time-limited backstop which does not keep us in the European Union indefinitely, without any power to withdraw unilaterally? As I hope that the Minister is aware, the risk of attack on any physical structure, no matter where situated, is very high. Dissidents are still active, and the UVF on Sunday announced that it would continue to fight if the situation deteriorates further.

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

The important thing to stress right now is that my right honourable friend the Prime Minister has put to the European Union, in a series of clear technical papers, different approaches that can be considered in those negotiations. He will take the full position and present that to his European Union colleagues over the weekend. Thereafter it will come to this House and the other place for a full and careful consideration.

Report Pursuant to Sections 3(1), 3(6), 3(7), 3(8), 3(9) and 3(10) the Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act 2019

Baroness O'Loan Excerpts

Monday 9th September 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness O'Loan (CB)]

My Lords, I would like to express my congratulations to the noble Lord, Lord Caine, on his very fine maiden speech.

During the passage of the Bill that led to this Act, I asked what abortion law would look like in Northern Ireland after the passing of the Act. I asked whether it would be the European norm of 12 weeks or follow the Abortion Act 1967 which allows abortion up to 24 weeks and abortion of people with a disability right up to birth. That Bill passed 50 years ago and has no cognisance of modern obstetric knowledge and practice. Two months later, I am no clearer; nor it appears is the Northern Ireland Office, since it says that,

“much further work is required”.

We do know that if the Executive does not re-form by 21 October—I sincerely hope that it does—the legal framework will disappear. Six weeks tomorrow, there will be no regulation of abortion in Northern Ireland up to the point of viability. The presumption, which is rebuttable in law, is that viability occurs at 28 weeks. We will be back to the position we were in in the mid-19th century before the Offences against the Person Act 1861. I do not know how the Government got themselves into this position. They had agreed that matters would be dealt with only by or with the consent of the devolved Assembly. We have an Assembly, even if we do not have an Executive, and the Members of the Legislative Assembly were not consulted at all.

The careful planning which normally applies and which is being done for the organ donation Act, for example, has not applied to this, so I have further questions for the Minister. When will details of the new law be available for consultation? Will your Lordships’ House be consulted or has Parliament written a blank cheque for abortion in Northern Ireland? How will the Government seek the views of the people of Northern Ireland and their elected representatives? It will not be enough to consult only the medical profession or its professional bodies. Have the Government started to consult the medical profession? If so, when did that consultation start and with whom is it occurring? Can the Minister confirm that, in the interim period, subject to the provision about viability, it will be possible to abort a baby up to 28 weeks for any reason whatever, including if the baby is the “wrong” sex or has a minor disability? Is the guidance or consultative paper in draft form now? If so, will he place it in the Library so that we can consider it? If it is not in draft form, can it be placed in the Library as soon as it is ready?

There was no human rights deficit before this Act, but the passing of the Act will mean that in terms of the Istanbul convention, Northern Ireland will become less compliant in human rights terms. Therefore, the UK as a whole will be failing in its obligations under the Istanbul convention to protect women against coercive abortion from 22 October. The Government cannot rely on the proposed domestic violence Bill to address this deficit in the current volatile political situation. It has been said that professional bodies will regulate the matter and ensure that services are provided only in a proper manner. Professional bodies regulate conduct, not the law. That is why the Act provides for regulations.

If such an arrangement involving a complete limbo of over five months were imposed on England and Wales, there would be an outcry. There is an outcry in Northern Ireland. The necessity for the regulation of abortion has been shown by repeated CQC inspection reports on abortion clinics showing failed abortions, emergency transfers to NHS hospitals, most recently in BPAS Merseyside, and failings in the safety of services. We need a regime of inspection regulation.

We cannot know how widely abortion services will be available from 22 October. Will the drugs to induce early abortion be made available from that date? Will patients have a right to demand such a prescription? Will doctors be able to refuse an immediate prescription if they do not want to prescribe? Will women be self-administering in the absence of medical help, with the attendant risks? How will medical professionals’ rights to freedom of conscience be provided for?

Your Lordships know that this Act undermines the devolution settlement. People in Northern Ireland feel very, very strongly about this. I was among the 20,000 who went to Stormont on Friday night to protest, as was the noble Lord, Lord Morrow, and again on Saturday I was out in the centre of Belfast with the many thousands who demonstrated against this change, a change in which we have had no say and still do not know what it is really going to mean. The regulations required under Section 9 must, under Section 12, be agreed after they come into effect. The regulations cease to have effect after 28 days unless approved. But the 28 days takes no account of any time in which Parliament is dissolved or prorogued or both Houses are adjourned for more than four days. We cannot predict what is going to happen in the days to come. If we go to an election, as seems highly likely, it could be months before we have any clarity, but we will have no regulation of abortion from 22 October.

The Northern Ireland parties must make their return to the Assembly a priority. Government must do more to facilitate proper talks. That we should still be in bilateral talks at this stage of the proceedings is quite distressing. At the end of the day, the parties could come back into Stormont, form an Executive and then walk away again. The Act could not then come into effect. I say to Sinn Féin and the DUP that this is what they should do at the very least to remedy this unprecedented democratic deficit. In the interim, if that does not happen, there should be no limbo period at all. Government have the responsibility in this matter, having assumed it by enabling the Act. Government should pass emergency legislation to remove the limbo period, bringing the legislation into effect only after the regulations are passed or Stormont meets again. The UK would then be compliant with its Istanbul convention obligations. We need emergency legislation to cover the period from 22 October and we need any new regulations to be the subject of consultation with our MLAs so that there is some respect for the democratic rights of the ordinary people of Northern Ireland.

Brexit: UK-Irish Relations

Baroness O'Loan Excerpts

Tuesday 5th September 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness O'Loan (CB)]

My Lords, this is a very difficult debate for the people of Northern Ireland. It is difficult because we voted by 55% against Brexit, and all the indicators are that Northern Ireland is going to be the part of the UK which will be most adversely affected by Brexit.

We know that the issues with which our negotiators must struggle are many and varied, but the real question tonight is the land border between the UK and Ireland. I do not think many people in England and Wales realise that it actually is a real problem, and we are in debt to the European Union Committee for producing the paper which we are debating today.

The reality is that Brexit, and the terms upon which we Brexit, are not in the hands of the UK, or the people of Ireland, or the people of Northern Ireland. They are in the hands of our Government and the 27 EU nations.

One of the biggest challenges, I think, is to find a way to maintain the best possible relationships with Ireland, because the Brexit negotiations are going to lead to difficult situations in which Ireland and the UK will seek to protect their own national security, economy and culture, while trying to honour their obligations under the Good Friday agreement and work out an acceptable solution to Brexit. We will need those institutions—the British-Irish Council, the intergovernmental conference, the parliamentary assembly —and we will need the British-Irish Joint Ministerial Committee on EU Negotiations. It is a special case; it needs a unique solution.

The EU Committee recognised that because of the Brexit problem, Ireland faces many challenges not of its own making and that the responsibility for finding solutions lies with the British Government and with the European Union. However, there must be a recognition here and on the European side of the reality of the problems. These are political negotiations, and the right of politicians rests on the trust and confidence of the people. Where confidence has evaporated, as we have seen in many recent elections, there can be unexpected electoral results.

I draw your Lordships’ attention to something that is simple but which may be important. There are 650 MPs in the other place, and our website says that there are about 800 Members of your Lordships’ House. There is a problem as we embark on the passage of the European Union (Withdrawal) Bill and as we engage in negotiations with Europe. Of the 650 MPs, Sinn Fein has seven seats. The SDLP, for so long the voice of constitutional nationalism in the other place, no longer has a single seat. Sinn Fein is abstentionist. Its MPs do not take their seats, participate in debates, or engage with the issues in the Chamber or in committee. They will not do so. The result is that the voice of constitutional nationalists who live in Northern Ireland has been silenced in the other place. It will not be heard as these vitally important debates go on. There is no one to speak on behalf of the constitutional nationalist people, and that is a major problem.

It is a worse problem because there is no one to speak on behalf of anyone in our devolved Assembly. Stormont is no longer—we are facing direct rule. Who will government be able to engage with during the Brexit negotiations, in the absence of a Northern Ireland Executive mandated to speak on behalf of the people of Northern Ireland? No one. That has been a problem for a number of years now, as many noble Lords will know from sitting on committees here and seeking to take evidence from the Northern Ireland Executive. They could not agree a common voice, so there was no response, as the noble Lord, Lord Jay, said. It has been thus for a number of years.

Therefore, if there is nobody from Northern Ireland in the Commons, living with the problems there, facing the difficulties of Brexit as it affects Northern Ireland, who articulates the voice of those who are not represented by Protestantism as opposed to Catholicism, what is the case in your Lordships’ House? Of the Northern Ireland Peers, I am the only one who is Catholic. All the others are Protestant or something else. We do not represent anyone, as Members of the other place do, but it is an unfortunate reality that I am the only Catholic living in Northern Ireland who has the right to speak in this place or the other place. Does it matter that the voice of constitutional nationalism is not heard? Does it matter that we have no Assembly? We are in limbo.

Unionist voters will tell you that they voted DUP because they would take on Sinn Fein. SDLP voters will tell you that they voted for Sinn Fein because they would take on the DUP. But it is not working. Among many people in Northern Ireland there is a sense of a democratic deficit. There are many causes of the deficit, but how is government going to deal with it? What message does it send about the rights of Catholics, non-unionists or nationalists, and what are the risks attaching to that deficit in all its manifestations?

The fight against terrorism and organised crime is critical to the economic stability of Europe. Many think that our problem is solved. I am afraid that it is not. The PSNI statistics for the year ending March 2017 tell us that last year there were five security-related deaths, 61 shooting incidents, 29 bombing incidents, 66 paramilitary-style assaults and 28 paramilitary-style shootings, and 75 kilos of explosives and 2,635 rounds of ammunition were recovered.

We do not have an Assembly and we do not have true peace. A generation is growing up who have no experience of the Troubles as we knew them. They are less likely to be drawn into violence, but economically we are not in a good state, and it was in the marginalised and deprived communities that terrorism, both loyalist and republican, had its roots.

At this time of unpredictable, difficult-to-counter global terrorism, it is essential in the interests of all 28 states that we maintain co-operation on EU databases on crime, the European arrest warrant, exchange of information, Eurojust judicial cooperation, European investigations, and so on, because those processes facilitate fighting crimes such as human trafficking, drugs, black market economies and international terrorism.

Brexit could affect our fragile peace process. We need, even at this time, to remember those who were injured, maimed and bereaved in Northern Ireland but also those who live here—those who still bear the scars of the Troubles after the bombs and attacks in Birmingham, Warrington, Manchester and so on. We should remember and provide for those people but we are not doing so—I met a group of them last night.

The politicians could deal with these legacy issues—we know how to do it—and the Government could hand over the money that they have committed to it, but they have not done so. Just today, the Lord Chief Justice has expressed his frustration yet again that he cannot conduct many of the inquests of those who were murdered in the Troubles.

For many in Northern Ireland, Ireland is and was the “Free State”—that tells you how they regarded Northern Ireland. Those issues of a people divided are part of our history but they are also part of our present. We were fractured in many ways. Our common EU membership and the courage of many people enabled peace—visibly and psychologically our divisions became less. The border disappeared, and the EU was a big part of that. Northern Ireland will have a problem with immigration unless there is a mechanism by which immigration is allowed across the borders from European states and which will facilitate not least the 30,000 cross-border workers and the 7% of employees from the EEA. Sixty per cent of our agricultural income derives from Europe. There are so many things that need to be done to protect us.

We need a soft border. No one has yet identified technology capable of maintaining an accurate record of the cross-border movement of goods without physical checks. The other day I heard a man on the radio say, “Are they going to get all the sheep out of the lorry and count them and then put them back in again? That’s what they used to do”.

If we withdraw from the single market and we do not negotiate some form of agreement with the EU or a bilateral UK-Irish agreement, all the evidence is that we will have to have some form of border or customs checks on parts of the 300-mile border between Northern Ireland and Ireland. They were not effective in the past; there is nothing to suggest that they would be effective in the future; and they would be very damaging.

The situation in Northern Ireland is very difficult at the moment. The problems of our internal divisions and our inability to govern ourselves using devolved powers are crippling our health service, our education and other infrastructures, we have an ongoing terrorism situation and confidence in our constitutional process has been eroded. The Brexit negotiations cannot result in the predicted economic difficulties as a consequence of something for which the people of Northern Ireland did not vote. Nor should they result in further constitutional instability. There is too much at risk here.

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[Lord Kerr of Kinlochard]

I will bow to the House if it feels I should say no more. I want to make two more points but if the House thinks that I should not make them, I will sit down. Shall I carry on?

[Baroness O'Loan]

Yes.

[Lord McAvoy (Lab)]

Sit down.

Northern Ireland Political Situation

Baroness O'Loan Excerpts

Monday 3rd July 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I am most grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Murphy, for his contribution. Once again, he did not allude to his personal experience, but I know that he has vast experience in Northern Ireland in many respects, not least as Secretary of State.

I agree about the involvement and engagement of the Prime Minister. That is important, and it is happening. The Prime Minister is constantly involved, but the lead at the moment rests with the Secretary of State. He is very much involved with the talks, flying backwards and forwards to Northern Ireland, engaging with the parties and progressing things. While that remains the case, I think that that is the best approach.

[Baroness O'Loan (CB)]

My Lords, it is nearly two years since the Northern Ireland Assembly did anything bar pass a Finance Act. I do not know whether your Lordships are aware of the consequences of that—the noble Lord, Lord Empey, spelled out some of them. Where does the Secretary of State’s optimism come from? I looked at the response of the political parties to the Statement. Sinn Fein says that there will be no agreement in the short term, the DUP says that Sinn Fein is introducing more demands, the Ulster Unionists are saying that there is no further clarity and Colum Eastwood says that we are on the path to direct rule. That is actually what the people of Northern Ireland think. We do not know what is happening, but it looks like we are on the way to direct rule.

Can the Minister do something useful that would raise spirits in Northern Ireland? That might be handing over the money for legacy inquests and giving effect to that one small part of the rule of law which has been neglected in Northern Ireland. Secondly, could he look at having an Act on party donations? Could we have something that will provide pensions for those young people who were terribly injured in the Troubles and who now have no pensions and no money? Could he think about providing other support for the victims and injured in the Troubles, because no one is helping them?

We all know what has to happen: the noble Lord, Lord Empey, set it out. Can the Government not bring some hope and reassurance other than just the words that they are hopeful?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I seek to reassure the noble Baroness that it is not just words at issue here, it is the fact that the Secretary of State has been very closely involved in the discussions. The discussions are progressing. I note what she says about statements by political parties engaged in talks, but she will know from the history that that is nothing particularly new. We want to ensure that we adhere to the Belfast agreement, and taking direct powers over relevant issues here would be very much contrary to it. That is not what we intend to do: we are wedded to the Belfast agreement and we are seeking to ensure that it is implemented.

Independent Monitoring Commission for Northern Ireland

Baroness O'Loan Excerpts

Wednesday 18th January 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness O'Loan]

My Lords, I would like to express my thanks to the noble Baroness, Lady Harris, for securing this debate. I would also like to pay tribute to the members of the commission, who have done a wonderful job in securing the trust of the people by the way in which they went about their work.

The commission's 26th and final report includes three important issues. The first is that a “culture of lawfulness” is,

“evidently lacking in communities dominated by paramilitaries”.

The second is that,

“Dissident republicans are an active and serious threat ... Some members and former members of all groups remain heavily involved in a wide range of serious crime”.

The third is that,

“The fundamental principle of the Northern Irish peace process … is that politics is the way to address communal challenges and to draw the whole society into full acceptance of the institutions of democracy”.

Our troubled past still impacts on our perception of the rule of law. The noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Eames, did valiant work as co-chair with Denis Bradley on the Consultative Group on the Past. They identified areas in which action was necessary, from memorials to storytelling to victims. There has been no real movement since the publication of that report three years ago. We currently have a perception that there are people who have committed crimes for which they have not been made amenable, so the two issues are the application of the rule of law and the responsibility of politicians. The systems currently established for dealing with the past involve three institutions, each of which may be involved in one case: the Historical Enquiries Team, the Police Ombudsman for Northern Ireland and the Police Service of Northern Ireland. This is a cumbersome set of arrangements and is beset by legal difficulties for all parties, which inevitably result in significant cost.

So how do we manage the past? The difficulties are perhaps best explained by reference to two recent developments. The first is the publication under the 30-year rule of papers relating to the hunger strike in 1981. IRA spokespersons have consistently insisted that no concessions were made by the Thatcher Government which were sufficient for the hunger strikers to bring an end to the hunger strike. The published material contradicts that assertion. It appears to indicate that lives could have been saved. Despite the facts that some of those involved are still alive, there is no threat of prosecution and that no amnesty is required, we do not have an agreed version of what happened. The second involves the recent controversy surrounding the British application for the tapes recorded by former IRA member Dolores Price and stored in an archive at Boston College in the United States. Since making that tape, Ms Price has indicated that she drove a number of the disappeared to their deaths at the hands of the IRA. Police investigating the abduction and murder of Jean McConville, a mother of 10, require access to the tapes for investigative purposes. The Boston project was predicated upon assurances that the tapes would not be disclosed until after a period of 30 years, or the death of the individual. It is obvious that such assurances could not lawfully be given. Journalists and academics are subject to the rule of law as the rest of us are, and material can and will be recovered by the police according to the law for investigation purposes.

It is now being suggested that the only way to deal with the past would be a truth commission, with an amnesty for all individuals who appear before it. To suggest this is to ignore international law, which provides that you can have no amnesty for gross violations of human rights. The South African Truth and Reconciliation Commission, which is often held up as a model, would not satisfy the requirements of international law. If we did what it did, we would have to establish an amnesty committee that would sit in public, before which people would have to appear to seek amnesty, and in the course of which they could be cross-examined by victims and their families. In South Africa 7,000 people applied; 849 were granted amnesty. Such hearings in Belfast could hardly be expected to consolidate the peace process. The consequential truth commission would hear testimony from individuals who chose to appear. Experience to date suggests there would be a very low participation rate.

Let us go back to the investigations. A number of impediments exist. Offences committed before 1998 can only carry a maximum sentence of two years. The Northern Ireland Arms Decommissioning Act provides that you cannot use anything recovered from the process of decommissioning. The Northern Ireland (Location of Victims’ Remains) Act provides that you cannot recover anything that may be found in the process of recovering the body. A number of people have also been dealt with under the Royal Prerogative of Mercy, and a variety of pardons have been granted to an unknown number of people. Our situation is as complex as that of most post-conflict societies. We need to establish the rule of law in order to limit the ongoing prospect of further recruitment by the dissidents, and further recruitment and criminality by loyalist paramilitaries.

If we accept that we cannot just allow people to tell their stories to journalists with impunity and without challenge, because the law does not permit that; if we accept that a truth commission is unlikely to be able to provide blanket amnesties, because the law does not permit that; if we accept that the hands of investigators have been tied, what is left? There is the normal activity of storytelling; and there is a single independent unit to investigate all the unsolved murders of the past in an attempt to pick up from where we are now and to carry forward the investigation of individual cases in a coherent manner—accepting that few of them may lead to prosecutions but that the families will be told what can be told.

We still face a significant challenge in Northern Ireland. The warnings of the IMC are very clear. Our politicians and our people have a duty to act. What positive action can the Government take to encourage this?

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[Baroness O'Loan]

With respect, I would like to point out that the report indicates that there is ongoing loyalist activity as well as ongoing republican activity.

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

I do not know whether I said dissident republican—I think I said just said “dissident”—but if there is dissident activity, whether loyalist or republican, that is embraced in my remarks.

Although it is not really a matter for this particular debate on the IMC, I understand the real concerns of the noble Baroness, Lady O'Loan, about dealing with the past. The Secretary of State intends to meet the political parties in Northern Ireland again to seek views on how consensus can be found. While this Government have a role to play, any successful outcome will be possible only if agreement is found within Northern Ireland.

I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Lexden, that the 26th report is a really impressive document. It was a pleasure to read it in the sense that the team had really considered how the seven years had been spent. It may well be of interest to lots of people to understand how we came to undertake what we have been doing. I see the point that he makes.

I think that I have covered most of the points. I clearly agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, that stability is precious and that the economy is important. Of course, in her initial remarks, my noble friend Lady Harris raised the point about the incredible resources that come from the taxpayer to support Northern Ireland. Noble Lords will be aware of the work of my right honourable friend in the other place who has certainly taken the initiative in rebalancing the economy and on corporation tax. We discussed that on an earlier occasion.

I think I am out of time and that I should conclude on that. If there is anything that I have not covered, I shall endeavour to write to noble Lords. In the words of us all, we thank the IMC for a piece of work well done.

Patrick Finucane

Baroness O'Loan Excerpts

Wednesday 12th October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Maginnis of Drumglass]

My Lords—

[Baroness O'Loan]

My Lords—

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, may I remind the House of the benefits of short questions in order that my noble friend the Minister can take as many questions as possible? Perhaps we should start with a former Secretary of State for Northern Ireland and then go on to the noble Lord, Lord Maginnis.

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[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

My Lords, I will have to write to the noble Lord on that precise point about limitations. All I would say is that we should not forget that when the report by the noble Lord, Lord Stevens, was produced, in the end it was not possible for prosecutions to take place. Other matters may come up and people may contact Sir Desmond, but we cannot say what will happen. The idea is to get the truth about what happened with a murder. That is the position, and what happens subsequently is something for another day. However, on that specific point, I will have to write to the noble Lord.

[Baroness O'Loan]

My Lords, I wish to address two points raised by the Minister. First, the significance of the apology in the Bloody Sunday inquiry was that it followed an acknowledgement of the facts that had been revealed by that inquiry. The apology alone without the inquiry would not have addressed the issue. Secondly, I would like the noble Lord to confirm that this is a review, not a criminal investigation, and that therefore there will be no prosecutions following this review by Sir Desmond de Silva.

I am one of the few people in this House who has actually read all three Stevens reports, and I am aware of the extent of obstruction by the state in the course of those inquiries. I am also sighted of much further information in relation to the activities of loyalists over the years, and I am very clear that had the noble Lord, Lord Stevens, been allowed to do the inquiry that he wished to do and had that inquiry led to prosecutions, we would have been spared a very significant number of murders, intimidation, shootings and bombings.

My question to the Minister reflects the fact that the Finucane family has always been concerned that the full story of what happened should be told. The terms of reference of the inquiry appear to be limited to the incident of the murder. The Finucane family has been concerned about what happened prior the murder and the collusion that did exist, as identified by the noble Lord, Lord Stevens, between loyalists and representatives of the state. There will be no arrangements that will enable any challenge to any decision that will be made by Sir Desmond—and I am in no way impugning Sir Desmond when I say this—but there is no accountability in this process until it is finished.

Therefore, my question for the Minister is: can he give us an absolute, categorical, unqualified assurance that access will be given to all Special Branch and MI5 intelligence in relation to anybody who may have had any association of any kind with the murder of Patrick Finucane, or with those connected with the murder of Patrick Finucane? As a former Police Ombudsman for Northern Ireland, I am acutely aware of the games that can be played in releasing intelligence. You have to get the question absolutely right or you do not get the intelligence. I therefore ask the Minister for the assurance that there will in reality be no empty promises of full co-operation but that full access to all the intelligence will be given to this inquiry.

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness and pay tribute to her work in Northern Ireland over many years. She is concerned about whether Sir Desmond has the opportunity to look at the papers. The review will have the full support and co-operation of all government departments and agencies in carrying out its work. There is no intention whatever to restrict Sir Desmond in looking at these papers. That has been clearly said and I repeat that in saying that he has free access to look at these things.

Bloody Sunday Inquiry

Baroness O'Loan Excerpts

Wednesday 13th October 2010 Lords Chamber

[Baroness O'Loan]

My Lords, before I move to the subject of this debate, I should like to record my congratulations to the noble Lord, Lord Macdonald, on his eloquent maiden speech. I was a law student at King’s College, London, when the tragic events of Bloody Sunday occurred. I remember coming to this place in disbelief and horror to try to find out what had happened and how it was that Bernard McGuigan, Gerald Donaghy, Hugh Gilmour, John Duddy, Gerald McKinney, James Wray, John Young, Kevin McElhinney, Michael Kelly, Michael McDaid, Patrick Doherty, William McKinney, William Nash and John Johnston had been shot dead, and 13 other people wounded. The Widgery report was a travesty. Lord Widgery indicated that some of those killed had been handling weapons and nail bombs, which was relied on for decades by certain politicians and has been recorded extensively in publications.

The families and the people of Derry waited a very long time for the truth to be told. As the Saville report states:

“The firing by soldiers of 1 PARA on Bloody Sunday caused the deaths of 13 people and injury to a similar number, none of whom was posing a threat of causing death or serious injury. What happened on Bloody Sunday strengthened the Provisional IRA, increased nationalist resentment and hostility towards the Army and exacerbated the violent conflict of the years that followed. Bloody Sunday was a tragedy for the bereaved and the wounded, and a catastrophe for the people of Northern Ireland”.

The families of the dead and the injured on Bloody Sunday conducted themselves with huge courage, determination, dignity and integrity in their long fight for justice. It was so good to see the scenes in the Guildhall Square in Derry when the Saville report was published. It was good, too, to hear the Prime Minister apologise unequivocally. This was an important moment for everyone affected by these terrible events.

There must be learning from Bloody Sunday. British forces serve in many places across the world. Their sacrifice must always be remembered, but learning must take place. As the Prime Minister said in another place:

“Openness and frankness about the past, however painful, do not make us weaker; they make us stronger”.—[Official Report, Commons, 15/6/10; col. 741.]

In Northern Ireland, almost everyone has been affected in some way by the Troubles. I was 26 when I was caught in a bomb explosion. I was pregnant and as a consequence of my injuries my unborn child died. It is not easy in such circumstances to move on. I know that personally; yet my pain was as nothing compared to so many—compared, for example, to the pain of the noble Lord, Lord Tebbit, who has spoken today.

The pain of those whose loved ones have died and who have never had the benefit of a proper investigation is an ongoing and terrible sore. Eleven people were killed in incidents involving the Parachute Regiment during three terrible days in Ballymurphy in 1971. These events have been referred to earlier today. It all started on 9 August 1971 on internment day. Over those three days 11 people were killed—Francis Quinn, Father Hugh Mullan, Joan Connolly, Daniel Teggart, Noel Phillips, Joseph Murphy, Edward Doherty, John Laverty, Joseph Corr, John McKerr and Paddy McCarthy. There have been no proper inquiries into these deaths. All that happened just five months before the Bloody Sunday shootings and both events involved officers of the same regiment.

As noble Lords have heard, there have been many atrocities in Northern Ireland—too many. Many of them received only the most perfunctory of investigations for a variety of reasons, some of which were simply the number of atrocities and the small number of police officers to investigate them. But the families of those who died were often left uninformed and alone. I met one UDR widow who told me that the only contact she had after her husband was murdered was when officers came to collect her husband’s gun. Another lady said that police officers told her that they would find the killers of her UDR husband and that they could come back and tell her. For 30 years she sat looking out of the window and waiting, but nobody came. I have also worked with the families of the disappeared, whose loved ones were abducted by the IRA. Their bodies, as we all agree, need to be returned to those who grieve for them but have no grave to visit.

All the bereaved families of Northern Ireland still grieve. Some of it happened a very long time ago and some of it more recently. As the police ombudsman, I reported on many cases, but the most complex investigation was that into the activities of a group of UVF police informants in North Belfast. A man came into my office in 2002 and told me that his son, Raymond McCord, had been murdered by UVF informants who had been committing the most serious of crimes for over a decade, that many of these crimes were known to the police, and that those informants were not made amenable for the crimes which they committed. It seemed to me unlikely that this could have happened. Nevertheless, it was my statutory duty to investigate, and I did so. He was right. A group of UVF police informants were linked to at least 10 murders, 10 attempted murders and at least 76 other serious crimes committed between 1991 and 2002. I have to tell noble Lords that before 1994, they murdered Catholics, and after the ceasefire, they murdered Protestants. Some police officers had deliberately colluded with those informants and allowed them to go on committing crimes, deliberately obstructing the efforts of other officers to bring them to justice. These findings did not destroy, but enabled a stronger and better police service and a community in North Belfast that once again is working with the police. As a consequence of that investigation, 11 men now stand charged with the most serious crimes, including murder. The investigation continues.

The deaths and atrocities of the Troubles are not ancient history. I think of the recent attempted murder of PC Peadar Heffron and the murders of Sappers Patrick Azimkar and Mark Quinsey. Dissident republican paramilitaries are still trying to murder people. Loyalists, too, are not at peace. Just last month, the Independent Monitoring Commission reported that the murder of loyalist Bobby Moffett on 28 May this year was sanctioned by the UVF. The commission, of which the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, is a member, stated that the reasons why the UVF sanctioned the murder were to,

“stop Mr Moffett’s perceived flouting of UVF authority, and to send a message to the organisation and the community that this authority was not to be challenged”.

We still have a serious problem.

Much has been said about the cost of Saville, and this is used as an argument to close down the past. With the deepest respect to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Carswell, it is surely inappropriate to refer to those who seek investigations into the murders of their loved ones as “picking at scabs”. It is said that the investigation of past atrocities costs too much and that it could undermine the peace. Indeed I was told on occasion that I should not report because I would destroy the peace process, destroy the RUC, destroy the PSNI, et cetera. None of this happened. As the Prime Minister said, the revelation of the truth makes us stronger. I have listened to endless calls for us to move on, but the reality, as the American poet Maya Angelou said, is that:

“History, despite its wrenching pain, cannot be unlived, but if faced with courage, need not be lived again”.

I know that justice and policing have now been devolved. Notwithstanding that, the Government have a clear interest in the security situation in Northern Ireland, and recent warnings by MI5 in relation to dissident republican activities are chilling. We have to find a way to deal with the past; we cannot ignore it. Currently, four bodies investigate the past in Northern Ireland: the Police Ombudsman for Northern Ireland, the office I held, investigates deaths which may have resulted from police misconduct. The Government also asked us to investigate a number of other cases in which the security forces killed people, and into which there had not been an investigation that was compliant with Article 2 of the European Convention on Human Rights. In that context, for example, the alleged “shoot to kill” deaths investigated by John Stalker and later by Colin Sampson were referred to my office. I initiated the work, having read the lengthy investigation files created by Mr Stalker and Mr Sampson. The work is massive, but the United Kingdom does have legal and moral obligations.

So the Police Ombudsman investigates; the coroner investigates; the Historical Enquiries Team, established by the PSNI and part of the PSNI, reviews deaths occurring before the Good Friday agreement. The HET reports on inquiries in cases where there can be no investigation to lead to a prosecution; it does not investigate those cases. If it finds that there is scope for an investigation it passes the case on to the PSNI for investigation, which then starts again.

All this produces duplication of work and complex legal situations. For example, when I was investigating a case in which it was alleged that a police officer and a civilian were involved in a murder, the law required me to investigate the police officer and the PSNI to investigate the civilian. The consequence of this was that the police officer was my suspect and the civilian was my witness; and for the PSNI, the police officer was its witness and the civilian was its suspect. I do not need to explain to noble Lords the legal difficulties in disclosure and process consequential upon this situation.

In Northern Ireland four different organisations, at least, are responsible for investigations—I have not referred to the Health and Safety Executive, for example—but I am sure that the resulting complexities and inefficiencies were not intended when the various pieces of legislation were passed. Nevertheless, that law now exists. In addition, there continues to be concern in some quarters about the fact that the actual historic investigations are carried out not by HET, which has some independent personnel, but by the Police Service of Northern Ireland. I do not make any attack on the integrity of the PSNI in saying this; I simply report one of our unfortunate realities.

There has been much news in the papers recently about the Metropolitan Police investigation and recent arrests in relation to the murder of Police Constable Colin Blakelock, who was murdered in October 1985 on the Broadwater Farm estate. There is an ongoing process here in Britain of reviewing cold cases and there have been significant successes, particularly as a consequence of developments in forensic science. If the relatives of those murdered in England, Wales and Scotland can expect investigation, why must the situation be different in Northern Ireland, which is part of the United Kingdom? To decide not to investigate is effectively to give impunity to all those who have killed.

I know from experience that many of these investigations will be profoundly difficult. Over the years, witnesses and suspects may have died, memories will fail, dementia will afflict some witnesses and forensic opportunities will have been lost because of the failure to manage exhibits properly and the passage of time. The RUC routinely destroyed evidential exhibits which were contaminated by blood—noble Lords will understand that many exhibits in murder investigations are contaminated by blood—files were lost as a consequence of explosions and files were contaminated by asbestos and destroyed. None of these is a reason not to try to investigate.

The people of Northern Ireland lived for 40 years in a situation in which even agents of the state were involved in both unlawful killings and other unlawful and, indeed, criminal activity. In these circumstances, confidence in the rule of law was inevitably seriously undermined. As we seek to establish a new Northern Ireland—which is still part of the United Kingdom—we should surely do all we can to consolidate that peace so that it does not break down again and so that we do not see the re-emergence of terrorism as a daily problem in our lives.

I have previously suggested—I do so again—that there should be one independent investigation unit charged with investigating all the unsolved deaths of the Troubles. It should have full police powers and be properly resourced; it should incorporate the Police Ombudsman’s historic inquiries, the HET inquiries and any current police investigations of deaths which occurred during the Troubles. This would obviate the necessity for the current duplication of work and it would be cheaper to run because one could utilise the current combined costs of the PSNI historic investigations, the HET and the Police Ombudsman historic investigations.

There are accounts which can be given to families even where there can be no prosecution—I have done this. In so doing, it is profoundly important that the families are given every piece of information except that which may imperil life or jeopardise current investigation or anti-terrorist methodologies. We do not need to protect the methodologies of the past.

As Saville concluded, Bloody Sunday was a tragedy for the bereaved and the wounded and a catastrophe for the people of Northern Ireland. There are still things to be done to address the consequences of the Northern Ireland Troubles and I urge the Government to think about the establishment of one unit to investigate the past. I record my thanks to the noble Lord, Lord Shutt, for organising today’s debate.

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[Lord Morrow]

My Lords, I welcome the opportunity to speak in this debate. Coming in at No. 20 behind a list of eminent speakers, I think that much that I would have referred to has perhaps been said, but noble Lords will forgive me if there is some repetition in my comments.

In a 30-year reflection on any event, there is sometimes a tendency to look at matters through rose-tinted glasses, although I suspect that, on close examination, we could all be guilty of that. Two hundred million pounds is a large sum of money by anyone’s standards. Were this House to have such a colossal sum at its disposal, what an appreciable difference we could make to the lives of all the people of Northern Ireland. Instead, in an economic climate such as this, this £200-million Saville inquiry—perhaps the most expensive foregone conclusion in history—borders on the obscene. It is a misappropriation of taxpayers’ money that, to be truthful, has changed very little in Northern Ireland’s society. It is the epitome of excess—the ultimate example of profligacy. And to what end? For this is the fundamental problem: a vast sum, a huge report and an astonishing 12 years later, nothing much—perhaps a few millionaire barristers aside—has changed. It is staggeringly ironic that, £200 million further on down the road, Martin McGuinness is on record as saying that an apology would have been sufficient.

The outcome was doomed from the start, as I shall explain. It was ever apparent that, no matter the result, at best one section of the community would be sceptical over the findings, feeling disfranchised and alienated and regarding it as a sop; at worst, some would have resorted to more violence on the streets, had they not got the result that they wanted.

The sad truth is that, yet again, the Protestant community was resigned from the start to the inevitability of the outcome going against its views of the events. Such resignation stems from past experience of government policy over at least two generations, which has been to appease those who shout the loudest and to acquiesce in the views of those who could prove the bigger threat. The harsh reality is that the predictability of the findings is further proof of the extent to which successive Governments and the establishment at every level have incessantly pandered to those who are contemptuous of the rule of law in the UK. They behave thus in a vain attempt to keep the seemingly acceptable face of republicanism on the supposed straight and narrow political path. However, your Lordships need no aide-memoire on the futility of feeding the proverbial crocodile. This inquiry was part of the deal, which has its roots in the Belfast agreement, to entice republicans away from terrorism and into the political process.

Evidence was heard from none other than Martin McGuinness, who admitted to being the IRA’s second in command in the area on the day in question. That is the same Martin McGuinness who now sits as Northern Ireland’s Deputy First Minister and who would probably be recognised as a statesman. In June, one national newspaper said of Saville that,

“nobody, but nobody, would order an inquiry into him”—

Martin McGuinness. It went on:

“This is one-directional justice. Each individual will have to work out for themselves whether this constitutes the mature behaviour of a democracy at its very best, or a wasteful exercise in appeasing a political sympathy that has been appeased for too many years”.

Mr McGuinness, as we are all aware, suffers from selective amnesia. Over the summer, we learnt that he forgot that he had spoken to a priest named Father Chesney, who was the prime suspect in the Claudy massacre. Claudy is not that far from Londonderry. Initially, Mr McGuinness vehemently denied even knowing this man; indeed, he could not remember talking to Father Chesney on his deathbed, which one would suspect would be an emotional, evocative and unforgettable experience. Paradoxically, he can clearly remember incidents from 30 years ago on Bloody Sunday, in which, he claims, he was not involved. However, as he cannot appropriately account for his whereabouts over some 25 minutes that day, it appears rather convenient that his memory of that in which he was involved, as events unfolded, is apparently not so sharp. We are told in the report:

“We consider it likely that Martin McGuinness was armed with a Thompson submachine-gun on Bloody Sunday and we cannot eliminate the possibility that he fired this weapon”.

There can be no doubt that the IRA was represented in the Bogside that fateful day and that Martin McGuinness was a member at that time.

To put the events in context, 1st Battalion the Parachute Regiment was on site as tensions were running high following the slaughter of two RUC officers three days before. The civil rights march, as we have been reminded, was not a legal march. Gunfire broke out against the Army, which returned fire—Lord Widgery described it as being done “recklessly” and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Saville, describes the actions as “unjustified”. The outcome of both inquiries is fundamentally the same. Saville, of course, was much more expensive.

As I have previously told this House, we had no need for a £200-million inquiry to establish that there was no premeditated plan to shoot civilians on that day. We did not need an inquiry of this length to inform us that, as a consequence of IRA actions prior to that day, parts of Londonderry “lay in ruins”, to use the words of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Saville. Therein is an injustice itself.

Many murders, bombings, shootings and hijackings were perpetrated against innocent people in those 30 years of Northern Ireland’s tragic history—all without a public inquiry. It should be remembered that no one has ever been charged, let alone convicted, of the murders of the two RUC men that effectively sparked the events of Bloody Sunday. Moreover, the RUC lost more than 300 of its officers during the Troubles and, for more than 200 of those murders, no one has ever been tried, convicted or put before a court. Of course, for those officers of the law there will be no public inquiries. There will be no inquiry into the Remembrance Day massacre at Enniskillen; the massacre of the innocent at the La Mon House Hotel; Bloody Friday, when a series of bombs were planted strategically across Belfast leaving few routes of escape; Teebane, where workers were slaughtered in their van as they returned home; Kingsmill, when the IRA separated the Protestants from the Roman Catholics and gunned them down in cold blood; the Ballygawley Road/Omagh Road massacre of soldiers; Narrow Water, when 18 paras were massacred; and Darkley, when a small Pentecostal church was invaded by the IRA and people were murdered as they worshipped. There was the murder of Lord Mountbatten and the bombings at Hyde Park, Warrington, Brighton and Canary Wharf. I could go on. The list is seemingly endless.

It has been said in this House that there is but one inquiry that needs to be dealt with. I think that I have demonstrated quite clearly that there is more than one. It strikes me that there are 101. So why was there a Saville inquiry? The answer is abundantly clear. Political expediency was the order of the day, although that is no reflection on those who carried out the inquiry. This had absolutely nothing to do with truth and justice. Purely and simply, this was an attempt to appease the unappeasable—to soften the iron will of those who had terrorised Northern Ireland in a systematic campaign of annihilation and who were increasingly demonstrating their capacity for destruction and mayhem on the mainland.

The report has pilloried the Army for its actions on that day. The truth is that the soldiers had a job to do in exceptionally difficult circumstances. It should be remembered that, but for their presence in Northern Ireland, many more lives would have been lost. I want to get that on record. I want to pay tribute to every soldier who served in Northern Ireland during those dark 30 years of misery and for the sacrifices that many were called on to make, including the laying down of their lives.

When the Saville report is stripped of its glossy cover, millionaire lawyers and high-profile status, what remains? Certainly, in the wake of this 12-year inquiry, there are lessons to be learnt. So many ineffectual reports from numerous commissions have been produced; this has been the second run at a report covering the events that are now known in common parlance as Bloody Sunday. But for how much longer and how many more times will we be forced backwards to trawl through the ashes of the evil deeds that have gone 30 years before? I suspect that some would be content to carry on with such fruitless endeavours until the past is completely rewritten to suit them and their purposes.

The people of Northern Ireland want to move on. They have severe economic challenges to face and consider that money could be better spent on delivering services to enhance the standard of their lives. Let me be clear: the people of Northern Ireland are done with money pits that deliver very little. They have no appetite for further public inquiries or the nonsense of a proposed truth commission.

[Baroness O'Loan]

My Lords, the noble Lord speaks with some apparent authority about the views of the people of Northern Ireland. I do not know on what he rests his authority, but I am aware from my seven years working with the victims of the Troubles across the whole community that there are many such people. Is he not aware that there are many people who would like the answers to what happened to their loved ones?

[Lord Morrow]

I have heard what the noble Baroness has said. I have been an elected representative for some 35 years, during which time I have presented myself continually to the electorate and have been returned at every election, so that may be some authority. In relation to people wanting answers, the noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, is quite right. People want answers, but I am not sure that they want to be trawled through more endless inquiries. There has to be a better way. Quite frankly, we have made a new start in Northern Ireland. Let us give it a chance and try to move forward. Are we are going to continually go down the road of selective inquiries? Bloody Sunday was a real tragedy and people lost their lives, and I do not minimise it in any way, but are we going to go down the road of setting a hierarchy of victims? Is that what we want to achieve? I hope that the noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, takes that point.