Care Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Northover and Lord Patel of Bradford

Monday 29th July 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Northover]

My Lords, we understand and respect the desire of the noble Lord, Lord Patel of Bradford, to achieve the best that he possibly can for people with severe mental disorders and pay tribute to his many achievements in the mental health field over many years. We are indeed, as he said, on the same side. We recognise the special vulnerability of this group, and I listened very carefully to what he said.

The Government’s view is that our proposed definition of aftercare services meets the objective of providing clarity on the duty to ensure such provision. That will give greater certainty to those needing or providing aftercare so that it can be provided when it is needed. The inclusion of a definition of aftercare services followed a recommendation by the Law Commission that aftercare services should be defined in accordance with a two-limbed definition from the Mwanza case. This case law defined the services to mean services necessary to meet a need arising from the person’s mental disorder and aimed at reducing the likelihood of the person’s readmission to hospital for further treatment of the disorder.

The Government’s definition of aftercare services builds on the definition recommended by the Law Commission. That was the starting point for the definition. We accepted the recommendation of the Law Commission as a sensible starting point, but we have gone further. The clause now clarifies that the Section 117 duty requires services to be provided to meet needs arising from or related to the person's mental disorder, as well as reducing the risk that the person’s mental condition could deteriorate, requiring their readmission to hospital.

Following public consultation, the Government expanded the proposed definition to put it in the Bill in what we feel is a much improved form. The noble Lord’s amendment omits the first limb of the Government’s definition while making changes to the second. In particular, his amendment weakens the connection between the services required to be provided under Section 117—I assure the noble Baroness, Lady Wheeler, that we are fully committed to continuing those—and the specific needs linked to a mental disorder, meaning that the scope of the definition would be unclear.

The Government are concerned that this amendment may confuse rather than clarify the circumstances in which aftercare services should be provided. That would run counter to the purpose of introducing a new definition. If there are disputes over the aftercare services to be provided, the wait that some people would have to endure before the aftercare services would be in place to enable them to leave hospital could be prolonged, something which the noble Lord wants to avoid. In our view, given that it omits the criterion that services must have the purpose of,

“meeting a need arising from or related to the mental disorder of the person concerned”—

I can assure the noble Lord that the definite article does not simply mean something singular but encompasses the plural as well, something to which he briefly referred—the amendment is likely to give rise to more disputes and administrative uncertainty than would be the case with the clause as it stands. Examples of disputes arising under the current Section 117, with no definition, highlight why a statutory definition will add clarity. As highlighted by the Law Commission, having no definition means that the interpretation is left to case law, which has provided varying interpretations.

Nothing in Clause 68 will change the guidance in chapter 27 of the code of practice. It covers housing, employment counselling, and cultural and spiritual needs. The professionals involved include mental health professionals, GPs, employment experts, independent advocates and others. The proposed definition sets out the essential elements and requirements for services to fall within Section 117. The Government do not wish to be more prescriptive as aftercare services should be agreed by health and social care professionals as guided by the code. I hope that that reassures the noble Lord. This has to be done, of course, in the light of each patient’s particular needs.

Finally, the current clause introduces a purpose for Section 117 services to reduce the risk of deterioration in a person’s mental condition, which the noble Lord’s amendment leaves out. I found myself looking at his examples as he went through them. I could not see that they would be excluded by the definition in the Bill, so we see no compelling reason to alter the definition of aftercare from what has been proposed, which is based on research and consultation by the Law Commission and the Government. Perhaps I should propose to the noble Lord that we meet between now and the Report stage to discuss his concerns and make sure that they are not well founded. I am very happy to take this forward and see whether we can involve my honourable friend Norman Lamb in those discussions. I hope that, on the basis of this response, the noble Lord will be happy to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Patel of Bradford]

I suppose the only bit of that I was pleased about was the proposal that we should meet. Unfortunately, I disagree with everything the Minister has said. The Law Society, the Mental Health Lawyers Association, Mind, and the Care and Support Alliance—an alliance of over 70 organisations—agree with me that the Mwanza case is completely unique and off the wall. It concerned someone who was sectioned nine years ago and had nothing to do with Section 117 services, but his lawyers were trying to use that as a basis to get free accommodation.

[Baroness Northover]

Does the noble Lord accept what I have just said: that it was doubt over cases like that which led the Law Commission to come up with a recommendation that there should be a definition as a starting point for where the Government would then take this?

[Lord Patel of Bradford]

I still have a problem because the definition is very clear, as the noble Baroness has said. It is about being related to “the mental disorder”. I know that the Minister said that this is standard legislative language and that it is not intended to be a singular disorder, but I disagree. First, the definition does not give us a sense that aftercare should be holistic and thus in line with the underlying well-being principle. Secondly, the use of the definitive article in “the mental disorder” is completely out of keeping with the Mental Health Act. I can give a couple of examples from some of the trigger sections of the 1983 Act. Section 1 of that Act defines mental disorder but Sections 2 and 3, which refer to mental disorder, have no definite article. The wording is completely separate from that of the Mental Health Act, so officials should go back to the drawing board and look at it a bit more carefully. It is very unclear and it poses huge legal arguments, as people will say that this is about “a mental disorder”.

[Baroness Northover]

Under the Interpretation Act 1978, words in the singular may include the plural.

[Lord Patel of Bradford]

I completely agree that legally that is what it means, but the 1983 Act does not use the word “the” in front of “mental disorder” in any of its important trigger sections. What is important is that it is not in keeping with the 1983 Act at all. Moreover, we have already seen local authorities trying to use this case. We should be dictating what happens. I am not sure whether the judge in that case—I do not know if I should be saying this—was by any stretch a mental health expert. I think he was a family court judge, so it was completely different. The Stennett case, which was appealed to the House of Lords, clearly stated a definition that was very different from this. We should not be dictated to by that; Parliament should dictate. The Bill will dictate what aftercare services are.

I am prepared to look at the definition I have crafted and without doubt there might be something that we can improve on. However, I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, that this is crucial because it is the only piece of statutory provision we have to make sure that statutory health services, the voluntary sector and social services work together. Time after time over the past 30 years local authorities have used any opportunity they can not to provide Section 117 aftercare services. It goes to legal action and then they back off. Why do it when we can resolve this? We do not need the first bit that says “the mental disorder”. Why introduce that level of doubt? We are on the same side and we can move forward on this, and we do not need to introduce any doubt. I am pleased that we have something to think about and to work together on and I am sure that between us, as we did last time, we will come to an amicable conclusion. In the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Northover]

My Lords, I thank noble Lords for tabling the other amendments in this group on these very important issues. On the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Patel of Bradford, we agree that a person with care and support needs should be protected against abuse or neglect wherever they are. As I have already set out, prison governors and directors have in place procedures to follow in response to allegations of abuse or neglect. Governors and directors will provide assurance to the National Offender Management Service and Her Majesty’s Chief Inspector of Prisons, through their inspection regimes, that those procedures and their implementation provide similar protection to that available in the community. The Prisons and Probation Ombudsman will investigate individual complaints and incidents. I can assure the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, that the Ministry of Justice and the NOMS have acknowledged that there is a need for improved directions to the Prison Service and probation trusts in this area. They will be working with officials from the Department of Health and stakeholders to develop instructions and guidance that will give clarity about the roles and responsibilities of the Prison Service and probation trusts in safeguarding adults in their care. In addition, prison governors and other prison staff will be able to approach their local Safeguarding Adults Board for advice and assistance in improving their arrangements. The MoJ was, of course, fully consulted on the provisions relating to prisons in the Bill and will be working with the Department of Health and NOMS to develop detailed guidance so that people who are concerned about the safeguarding issue will know exactly how to raise it and get advice on how to approach it. The MoJ is fully involved in the development of all parts of this clause.

The noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, also raised the issue of a statutory obligation on the senior management of prisons to take responsibility for the care and support needs of prisoners. The governor or, in the case of contracted prisons, the director, has the primary duty of care for prisoners and is the appropriate first point for reporting concerns. There is an investigations procedure in place for cases in which prisoners suffer significant harm. Prisons are monitored by a range of inspectorates, including the CQC.

[Lord Patel of Bradford]

I just want to get this point on record and then perhaps we can come back to it. I understand that prisons have a whole range of safeguarding measures in place. When there is a real problem that a prison has not resolved, why can a local authority not have an inquiry for a person who is vulnerable and at risk? That is my first question. If somebody is in approved premises, such as a bail hostel, and living in the community like anybody else, and they have been abused or are neglected or at serious risk, why should a local authority not have an obligation to have a safeguarding inquiry? I just cannot fathom why such a person would be excluded.

[Baroness Northover]

The point is that if local authorities must also conduct inquiries in prisons and approved premises, we run the risk of duplicating inquiries. Prison governors and directors have the primary responsibility for preventing abuse or neglect of prisoners with care and support needs. Prison governors already have a duty to care for and safeguard prisoners. If we duplicate this responsibility, we run the risk that the lack of clarity will mean that safeguarding concerns fall between agencies. Noble Lords will be extremely familiar with how this has happened in the past in other sectors. Therefore, a decision has to be made as to where the expertise is and where the primary responsibility is. The decision made in discussions with the MoJ and NOMS is that the primary responsibility is with the prisons. We have to make sure that they carry forward that responsibility. Obviously, they will draw on advice in the way that I described, but we need to make sure that there is one body with ultimate responsibility.

We agree that prison staff should have access to local safeguarding expertise if, in their particular circumstances, it would be useful, so we agree that the second half of the subsection, from the second “officer” onwards, should be removed. However, because prisons have their own safeguarding procedures, we believe that it should be left to local discretion to determine whether it is appropriate for a governor or other prison staff to become members of safeguarding boards rather than a statutory duty. That is the intention of the first part of subsection (7).

I now turn to Amendment 105Q, in the name of my noble friend Lady Browning and the noble Lord, Lord Touhig. It raises important issues about how future statutory guidance will be issued under the Bill and how it may interact with existing guidance. The noble Baroness, Lady Wheeler, also asked about this. We intend to develop a single, consolidated bank of guidance for local authorities covering all their care and support functions under this part of the Bill. We will replace all existing guidance that covers this territory to remove the potential for future misunderstanding. Current statutory guidance for local authorities is issued under Section 7 of the Local Authority Social Services Act 1970. Future guidance on adult care and support will be issued under Clause 71 of the Bill. The amendment also proposes to require a consistent application of the definition of an “NHS body”. We agree, of course, that definitions must be clear and consistent in guidance and regulations and we will keep this in mind in drafting regulations and guidance to ensure that key terminology and definitions are consistent. I can assure the noble Baroness, Lady Wheeler, that guidance remains in place until it is superseded by new guidance.

My noble friend Lady Browning and the noble Lord, Lord Touhig, referred to guidance for people with autism. As they said, unlike other statutory guidance related to care and support, this is issued under a specific requirement included in the Autism Act 2009. I can assure noble Lords that it is not our intention to repeal these provisions by this Bill. The duty to issue guidance on autism will continue. I hope noble Lords are reassured by that.

I now turn to Amendment 105R, to which the noble Lord, Lord Low, spoke. The Government believe it is right to allow local authorities the flexibility to delegate their care and support functions to third parties. However, when a local authority chooses to delegate any of its care and support functions, this must not be a way of relieving itself of its responsibilities for how those functions are carried out. This clause does not absolve the local authority of its legal obligations with respect to care and support functions. However, we believe it is necessary that, when a local authority arranges with a third party to carry out a public function, the local authority should have contractual recourse against that third party for breach of contract. Subsection (7)(a) ensures that this is the case. It is not a limitation of the local authority’s ultimate responsibility for the performance of its functions.

The noble Lord, Lord Low, asked to be reassured about the application of the Human Rights Act. I can assure him that the Human Rights Act applies to the discharge of public functions, so even when a local authority delegates its public function to a third party, that function must still be carried out in a way that complies with the Human Rights Act. Local authorities retain legal responsibility for anything done or not done by the third party when carrying out the function. It follows that any failure to carry out the function in a way that is compliant with the Human Rights Act will be considered a failure by the local authority. We do not think that this needs to be specified in law as it is covered. The function must be carried out in a way that is compliant with the Act. By specifically referencing the Human Rights Act in legislation there is a risk that this could imply that the Human Rights Act does not apply in relation to various other pieces of legislation where it is not specifically referenced. I hope that the noble Lord is reassured.

Care Quality Commission: Morecambe Bay Hospitals

Debate between Baroness Northover and Lord Patel of Bradford

Thursday 20th June 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Patel of Bradford]

I am coming to the question.

As the former chairman of the Mental Health Act Commission, I was assured when those organisations merged that the CQC would keep the focus of those commissioners, those skills and that methodology, and that specialist focus and attention would be given. That is legally required under the Mental Health Act, but it has not happened. Over the last few years the expertise of Mental Health Act commissioners has been eroded. Can the Minister assure me that this focus will be renewed, and the focus of Mental Health Act commissioners returned? Will the Government consider having a chief inspector of mental health? That was one of the original ideas when it was formed.

[Baroness Northover]

I remind noble Lords that brief questions are allowed. As the Companion states, this is not the occasion for an immediate debate. I note that many noble Lords want to speak, so the briefer the better, please.

Health and Social Care Bill

Debate between Baroness Northover and Lord Patel of Bradford

Monday 5th December 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Northover]

My Lords, I am happy to cover both those eventualities in the discussions. Moving on to Clause 51 concerning death certification reforms, this amendment to the Coroners and Justice Act 2009 places responsibility for the appointment of medical examiners and related activities on local authorities in England instead of the PCTs. The Government are committed to implementing the reforms of the process of death certification set out in the Coroners and Justice Act 2009. These are important and long overdue reforms, which will involve a medical examiner providing an independent and proportionate scrutiny of cause of death in all cases not investigated by a coroner. The reforms will improve the quality of information on cause of death, increase transparency for bereaved families, and strengthen local clinical governance and public health surveillance arrangements. As your Lordships will be aware, these reforms form part of the response to the recommendations of the Shipman inquiry and, of course, the noble Baroness played a key role in taking these changes through.

The clause moves responsibility for the appointment of medical examiners from PCTs to local authorities and makes similar changes to the arrangements for performance managing and funding the medical examiner service. This change is needed because of other provisions in the Bill which will abolish PCTs from April 2013, despite the quote that was made earlier. Establishing the medical examiner service in local authorities should enhance the availability and accessibility of important public health information and intelligence. It will also align the service with other existing local authority responsibilities, including coroner and registration services.

I now turn to the fee payable for death certification, which, clearly, is a very difficult and immensely sensitive issue. Many people, including my noble friend Lady Jolly, have questioned whether there should be a fee at all and whether the state should pay for certification of death. It is the Government’s policy in line with the proposals set out by the previous Government in 2009 that the medical examiner’s independent scrutiny and confirmation of cause of death stated on the certification should not result in an increase in costs. It is also important to remember that the payment of the fee is already the case as regards the 70 per cent of people who are cremated, with this fee forming part of undertakers’ fees.

The current economic situation means hard choices are inevitable and the need to ensure that certification of death is cost neutral is one of those challenges. With regard to how the fee is paid by individuals, I am aware of the problems. Let me make it clear: it is neither the Government’s desire, nor intention, that this fee should be paid upfront. We would like to come to a solution that fully recognises how difficult a time this is for families and we do not want to add to the heavy burden which is felt at such a time.

As such, we have already started discussing with stakeholders and others how to arrive at an appropriate method for payment of fees. We will be consulting fully on this topic and want to hear the full range of views before making a decision. Given the sensitivities, if any Member of the Committee would like to discuss these issues further with me or officials, we would be very happy to take that forward. In due course, I will move that this provision stands part of the Bill.

[Lord Patel of Bradford]

I am very grateful to the noble Baroness for her response. I am particularly grateful to noble Lords who have contributed on the amendment standing in my name. We have had the benefit of the huge expertise and experience not only of the voluntary sector but of eminent psychiatrists who understand what happens to patients detained under the Mental Health Act. We should not simply ignore those views or brush them under the carpet. My problem is that we have heard a number of times in this Committee that, “Such-and-such is not an intention of the Bill, and the new arrangements will ensure that quality and outcomes are the prime drivers in decision-making rather than cost or expediency”. No doubt that is what is intended, but as we all know, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

This is not a technical issue, or an issue that can be left alone in the hope that matters will resolve themselves and things will work out. This is about a fundamental principle of law that seeks to protect the vulnerable. The noble Lord, Lord Adebowale, gave a perfect example of what happens to real patients. If we cannot act now in the best interests of those who cannot speak for themselves by virtue of being detained under the Mental Health Act, who are by definition vulnerable and dependent on the state to make the right choices for them, then I do not know what we are doing here today.

The amendment tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, exemplifies why we have to be very careful about decisions that we make for this group of patients—the unintended consequences could be enormous. It is wonderful that the Minister said that the Government will review this next year. That is welcome. However, how many more lives will be ruined in the next 12 months? We have made mistakes in the past and we continue to make them. In terms of this amendment and Section 117, the danger with simply moving forward and saying, “This will be okay—that is not what we intend”, does not sit comfortably at all.

My amendment is very simple: it will ensure that CCGs and social services authorities continue to have a joint duty. I cannot see why we should not insist that CCGs and local authorities should have a joint duty in relation to this very vulnerable group of people. It will ensure that the joint duty includes maintaining co-operation with relevant voluntary agencies. We are asking the voluntary sector, “Please take over services and help us deliver”, and all the rest of it. Why can we not maintain the co-operation that exists?

The amendment will also ensure that the duty remains free-standing, as was the clear intention of the Appellate Committee of this House, so that aftercare services are not limited to other provisions but can actually meet the patient’s needs. By doing so it ensures that patients who have been detained under the Mental Health Act and require aftercare services do not find themselves having to pay for those services.

The noble Baroness said that there is no intention regarding payment. However, I think that I gave enough examples in my speech to show why I think that will be challenged. I am not a lawyer or an expert on these things but I did look at the judgment. What is interesting about the judgment that was given way back in 1999—when we did not have austerity measures and there were plenty of resources—was that, on three occasions, three local councils tried to force four people detained under the Act to pay for aftercare services. They had three different appeals. By the time they got to the fourth appeal in this place, one of the patients had died. That emphasises my point about how long people have to wait. If they were trying to charge then, what is going to happen now when we are desperate for resources in health and social care? People are really going to be pushing this.

I am afraid that that does not hold water for me at all. I tabled this amendment in good faith but I am concerned that clauses in this Bill will clearly have unintended and detrimental consequences. We chose not to reject this Bill out of hand under the rightly justified position that it is the proper place of this House to amend and improve legislation through a robust process of scrutiny. I believe that my amendment is the right and proper way to correct the Bill and to prevent significant harm arising.

[Baroness Northover]

I did not directly address the Stennett case and I must do so. The Stennett case indeed makes clear that such services have to be provided free of charge and the Bill in no way overturns that. It does not challenge that. What comes under Section 117 remains as it was—what is provided by it is still free of charge. This does not in any way challenge the Stennett conclusion.

[Lord Patel of Bradford]

The clause actually says—again, I am not a lawyer; I am looking at this in layman’s terms—that you do not need to have this consultation. As the noble Lord, Lord Adebowale, said, Mr Bloggs could then leave hospital and receive some accommodation, daycare and counselling through the health service, but the local authority could then decide unilaterally to say—as it can—“Right, the daycare and the accommodation have gone. We are not going to pay for them”. It does not even consult the patient or the CCG. It can do that. The legislation states that. The clause says that local authorities can do that now. It is okay.

We are being foolish if we think that local authorities or CCGs are not going to opt out of this where they can. They will opt out of providing bits of services. The voluntary sector will be lumbered with them. It will be told to pick up the tab, but organisations such as Turning Point do not have the resources to pick up the tab.

[Baroness Northover]

I repeat my invitation. The noble Lord makes a cogent case. I invite him to come into the department and make that case. I am saying that his worries are ill founded, but if he is right and there are things that need to be done to ensure that the case that I am making is indeed watertight, please will he help us to do that?

[Lord Patel of Bradford]

The noble Baroness is almost as persuasive as the noble Earl. I gratefully accept the invitation, and I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Adebowale, will also be very happy to sit with officials. Like I say, I do not think for one second that the department is being malicious. There are some unintended consequences that are worth exploring further to see if we can make this legislation better. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.