House of Lords: Allowances
Debate between Baroness Northover and Baroness Smith of Basildon(3 years, 12 months ago)
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Baroness Northover (LD)
I, too, am speaking in favour of my noble friend Lord Alderdice’s amendment. Having come through the virus, I am able to be here and am glad to have the opportunity. Many of my colleagues, of course, cannot be here.
The United Kingdom is going through an extraordinary crisis and the Government have much that they must tackle. This is a global crisis with huge implications. As the noble Baroness will know, over 200 Members of the House that she leads have written to the Lord Speaker, making the point that it is our duty as Members of the House of Lords both to help the Government and hold them to account. Given the gravity of this crisis, we need urgently at least to return to our normal sitting pattern. We rightly allowed the Commons to be prioritised in setting up hybrid procedures. Now that it has been done, the same must urgently happen here. As the letter says, the implications of the pandemic are huge. There are issues of health and safety, economic damage, civil liberties and human rights, and many aspects of each. There is so much to cover. Just yesterday, the Lords examined the financial stability report, which had passed unseen by the Commons because it had not even been published when they waved it through.
Internationally, some Governments and others seem to be taking advantage of the cover of coronavirus. It is our responsibility to make sure that a spotlight is shone there too, given that the United Kingdom aspires to global leadership and is a member of the UN Security Council. Therefore, there is more for us to do, not less, so all effort must be put into the Lords returning as the second and scrutinising part of Parliament, and impediment must not be placed in the way of that. However, it has been, as the noble Lord, Lord Shinkwin, and my noble friends Lord Stoneham, Lord Newby and Lord Alderdice have made plain.
I hear what the noble Lord, Lord Shinkwin, said about a ministerial pension. I was an unpaid Minister through most of the coalition. The Government Chief Whip said at the time that none of us would lose out. Clearly, we need a sunset clause for this proposal, which assumes that we will be working less, not more. If this proposal is to go through, clearly the salaried members of the commission must show leadership by voluntarily taking a pay cut, not to 80% but along the lines that will result from this proposal. The sooner we at least move back to our usual days and hours in this crisis, the better.
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
My Lords, it is quite clear from the comments we have heard already that we indeed live in extraordinary times for our country. Indeed, I do not recall ever speaking to such an empty Chamber. That is not because I am a brilliant speaker whom everyone floods in to listen to; it is because Members take their responsibilities seriously and are in the Chamber to take part in the work that we do.
On the very day it was announced that the number of deaths in the UK from coronavirus is now the highest in Europe, we also got more information on the alarming number of deaths in social care situations. It is very sobering for us to be here today talking about the issues before us. What is happening across the world brings enormous responsibilities not only for the Government but for the opposition parties. Parliament also has responsibilities—to ensure that those on the front line have the equipment, the protection and the support that they need, and that those trying to manage their lives through this crisis and beyond know that they have all the support and information which government and society should provide for them.
The Government decide the Order of Business. I am sorry that the first item up today was allowances. It has been reflected in the speeches that we have heard. Not one person has talked about the allowances without talking about how the House operates. My noble friend Lord Adonis has some amendments on this later, but he touched on it when he spoke earlier. Indeed, the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, when moving his Motion, spoke about how the House operates and our responsibilities. I would prefer the allowances Motion to be much further down the agenda. I hope that the Minister can take that back and discuss it with the usual channels. It was not the most important item before us today. Having said that, it is important, and has caused a lot of discussion.
I will speak briefly on some of the other issues, but on the issue of allowances the Minister’s comments about the difficulties in reaching this compromise Motion before us reflect the inadequacies of the current system of allowances that we have heard about from others. Those deficiencies cannot be corrected in a Motion during a crisis. The existing system and the new system being proposed also reflect the perception of Parliament. Both are predicated on being physically or virtually in the Chamber, and now we have the added criterion, which the Minister supports, that at Oral Questions, even if someone is on the list to speak, they have to be engaged in listening at least 30 minutes beforehand. If somebody else speaks for too long and goes over—and I do not want to curtail Ministers from giving complete answers to questions—and do not get in, that is no longer deemed a participation, even though they are present in the virtual chamber.
Violence Against Women
Debate between Baroness Northover and Baroness Smith of Basildon(10 years, 10 months ago)
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Baroness Northover
It is, indeed, a widespread problem. Last year, 88 women were killed by a partner, 60,000 women were raped and 400,000 were sexually abused. The report talks about a “watershed moment” in relation to child sexual abuse and other violence against women and girls, as shown by the concern about the Savile investigations, and so on. We have to make sure that it is indeed a watershed moment and that things start to improve.
Baroness Smith of Basildon
My Lords, the noble Baroness will be aware of the value of women’s refuges, which allow women to remove themselves from immediate danger of physical or sexual violence towards them or their children. A number of refuges are reporting serious financial difficulties at the moment. Will the Government consider carrying out some kind of review of the impact of local government cuts and of stopping the ring-fencing of financial support so that we can assess that impact and see what can be done to ensure that these refuges have the finance that they so desperately need?
Baroness Northover
Across government, we are determined to make sure that we do everything we can to protect the victims of domestic abuse. I know that colleagues across government have looked at this issue. If the noble Baroness has more specific information, I would welcome receiving it.
Energy Bill [HL]
Debate between Baroness Northover and Baroness Smith of Basildon
Baroness Northover
My Lords, we are very sympathetic to the concern expressed behind the amendment and we have debated both in Committee and on Report the issue of compensation for oil pollution. The main concern in these debates was that arrangements should be in place to ensure that companies could meet any liability arising from oil pollution during their licensed operations.
We explained in these debates that there are indeed appropriate requirements in the licences and that the industry has in response formed a voluntary liability pool, the Offshore Pollution Liability Association—OPOL. OPOL membership requires operators to demonstrate provision to meet clean-up costs and associated damages of up to $250 million on a basis of strict liability in the event of a pollution incident. OPOL also collectively provides a back-up mechanism that in the event of default by any operator, the other members will meet claims for clean-up and associated damages up to the same financial limits. That liability pool is unique to the North Sea, and we believe that it provides a very solid assurance that all pollution liabilities will in practice be met. I particularly stress the significance of the acceptance of strict liability by OPOL members, which means that anyone who has suffered loss as a result of pollution from an oil installation does not have to show that the operator is at fault. He or she merely has to establish that the damage or loss is a result of the pollution. As I have said, it is unique to the North Sea.
Since Report, my noble friend Lord Marland has written to the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, with further details of this arrangement and I thank her for her very positive response to that correspondence. This amendment, however, addresses a slightly different point from the amendments tabled in Committee and on Report. We made the point that the amendments tabled then were unnecessary as appropriate requirements were already in place. The focus of this amendment is rather that the Secretary of State should publish a report on the arrangements in place, the amount of insurance cover provided, and so on. We are wholly sympathetic to the idea that more public information should be available on these matters. As the noble Baroness notes, further work is ongoing under the auspices of OSPRAG, in which government and industry are working together to review the industry’s practices in the light of what has been learnt from the Macondo disaster. One of the OSPRAG working groups is specifically addressing liability and indemnity issues. We are happy to undertake that the Government will make an appropriate statement in the House on the outcome of this work and any changes that may appear necessary or desirable. I hope that that reassures the noble Baroness.
As for future developments, the department is committed to laying an annual statement before the House, and we will, of course, use that to report on any new developments or proposed new measures. In the light of those reassurances, I hope that the noble Baroness will feel able to withdraw her amendment.
Baroness Smith of Basildon
I am grateful to the Minister for her response. It covers a number of the points that I was seeking to address, mainly transparency and the responsibility of government in reporting back to Parliament. On the basis of her response, I am happy to withdraw the amendment.
Energy Bill [HL]
Debate between Baroness Northover and Baroness Smith of Basildon
Baroness Smith of Basildon
My Lords, I proposed a similar amendment to this in Committee and was greatly encouraged by the Minister’s response, which prompts me to bring it forward again today. In some ways, we might call this the big society amendment. My last role in Government was as Third Sector Minister and in it I saw—as I am sure many other noble Lords in their time in different departments, former Members of the other place in their constituencies and indeed noble Lords in their work in the community all have—how the role of the charitable sector and social enterprises in helping the most vulnerable in society, particularly those who are fuel poor or fuel vulnerable, is something society as a whole has welcomed. I know the Government want to attract those kinds of non-profit making or third sector organisations into public sector provision. However, there is an opportunity here for the wider charitable and social enterprise sector to be involved in the kind of work that it does best in conjunction with Government.
Although the Minister was very encouraging in Committee, I think some noble Lords misunderstood my explanation of this amendment, which merely seeks within the framework regulations, where a fee is payable for the initial or continued authorisation of the scheme, that the fee be reduced for those organisations such as charities and social enterprises. I am perfectly happy, in the welcome spirit of co-operation that the Minister has displayed today, to look at alternative definitions and for him to come back with one.
I accept that many—indeed most—of the providers, installers and operations will be, as the Minister said, market-driven. However, we should do everything we can to encourage those charities, social enterprises and non-profit-making organisations that have a special and specific role in helping the vulnerable, those with special needs, the disabled and those with learning disabilities. I found the Minister’s response last time very encouraging so I thought I would give him another opportunity to come forward. He has been very gracious today in accepting the proposal that has been put forward and I know that he would not want to see—as I would not—any potential assessor or installer excluded from the market when they have the ability to help those that most need it.
The amendment is also about ensuring that we have a Green Deal that reaches as many people as possible—I know we all want to see a big take-up. Attracting those charities, social enterprises and voluntary sector organisations into the market can only help increase the number of households that take up the Green Deal, as well as giving that specific help and support to the poor and the vulnerable. I look forward to the Minister’s response. I feel strongly on this issue and I know he does as well. I hope he can satisfy me on this issue and we are able to withdraw the amendment. However, if we are unable to, we will want to test the view of the House on this.
Baroness Northover
I thank the noble Lords for their suggested amendments. This amendment seeks to ensure that where the code of practice specifies that an authorisation fee is payable by Green Deal participants, it should be reduced for charities and social enterprises. We recognise that these bodies will have—must have—an important role to play in helping to deliver the Green Deal. We are already considering how secondary legislation could allow for authorisation fees to be set at a variable level, depending on the nature or status of the organisation. We appreciate noble Lords’ desire for more clarity on this matter and I assure them that we are continuing to consider this issue further and will bring back a government amendment if necessary to this effect in the other place. We are seeking to make sure that this is as comprehensive as possible.
I am sure the noble Baroness would agree that we do not want to end up in a situation where, by specifying one or two organisations, we thereby exclude others. We fully accept the notion she is putting forward that the authorisation fee might be variable. We are seeking to work out how best you take that forward so that it is as effective and inclusive as possible, as opposed to being too specific around some particular groups that might be identified now, thus inadvertently excluding others. That is why we are still looking at this. However, we fully support what the noble Baroness seeks to do and if this is best put in primary legislation, an amendment will be brought forward. That will probably be in the other place because of the timing, but we are seeking to work out how best to achieve it. That is why we ask her at this stage to withdraw her amendment so that we can work this out better. We invite her to contribute to the discussions about how best to achieve that. I therefore invite the noble Baroness to withdraw her amendment.
Baroness Smith of Basildon
My Lords, the Minister’s encouragements to me were certainly not misplaced and I am very grateful to the noble Baroness for that answer. I entirely agree. It was never my intention to specify individual organisations or their categories. The variable fees approach is very much the way to proceed and I am happy to work with her to see how best we can achieve that. I look forward to seeing the amendments, if necessary, in the other place. On that basis, I am again happy to withdraw my amendment.
Baroness Smith of Basildon
Once again, I am grateful to the noble Baroness for her comments, which show that the Government have listened to what was said in Committee. She referred in particular to the provision of information where a property changes hands through an executor following a legacy. That issue was raised by my noble friend Lord Davies of Oldham, and I am grateful to the Government for looking at it.
I am very pleased that she has told us now about amendments that she will seek to have tabled in the other place, which will want to scrutinise those proposals. We have concerns—we will have to look at the detail of how this works out—that additional compensation may be charged for early repayment. Indeed, that was a concern raised by the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, in Committee, so I appreciate her informing us now of the Government’s intention.
Another point that I want to make is that I was very pleased at her opening comments on the importance of disclosure of information about charges. She may recall that one of our amendments—I cannot recall whether it was tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, or by myself, but it was supported by us all—was on pre-payment meters, which often mean that people pay much higher rates for electricity or gas than those of us who pay by direct debit or in response to a bill. One of our proposals in Committee, which was not accepted at the time but which I think the Government said they would look at again, was that greater information should be provided for those customers about exactly how much the Green Deal costs them and how much their energy bill costs. If the Government are bringing in greater transparency so that information on charges can be disclosed, we would like to see that point included. Therefore, perhaps that issue can be looked at at the same time.
Baroness Northover
I thank the noble Lady for her very positive response to these amendments. We will indeed look at the issue that she has raised.
Energy Bill [HL]
Debate between Baroness Northover and Baroness Smith of Basildon(13 years, 2 months ago)
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Baroness Smith of Basildon
My Lords, I hope that noble Lords will forgive me for not standing up because I may fall over. I thank the Minister for his comments and for his good wishes to my foot, which were gratefully received. I hope that he will not mind if I do not take him up on his offer to take my wheelchair through the voting Lobby. I will rely on my noble friends to ensure that I get into the right place. On a serious note, I am grateful to him for agreeing to suspend last week’s Committee sitting so that we could sit today and I could be here. I am grateful to noble Lords for their indulgence on that.
I thank my noble friend Lord Whitty for bringing forward this amendment. It has invoked a lively discussion. I am not sure that there is as much disagreement between us as might seem apparent from some of the debates. We are all trying to seek a sensible energy mix and to ensure that there is access for all forms of energy. The Government have targets for renewable energy. If those targets are to be met there has to be some certainty for the renewable energy industry.
It is worth reminding ourselves that my noble friend’s amendment is not anti-oil or anti-gas—I did not see it in that way at all—but tries to find a way in which both can coexist sensibly on a level playing field and one does not undermine the other. Like the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, I pay tribute to the work of RenewableUK, which has been trying to seek the kind of protocols, or guidance, required that means that problems can be addressed before they arise so that we do not have to move to the position we would have to under this amendment.
However, there may be cases where a proper disputes procedure has to be in place to ensure that we are not in the position that we are at the moment. If oil or gas is always a priority, there will be a difficulty in ensuring investment in renewables. Indeed, the amendment talks about a site that is developed or operated for renewables, or is intended to be developed or operated, or for transmitting electricity from renewables,
“in respect of which the Crown Estates that have granted a lease license, agreement to lease or agreement to license for that purpose”.
It is not just a site that has been chosen but a site that has been granted a licence already.
The proposed new clause says that the Secretary of State is not able to grant a licence for activities within an offshore renewable energy site without the agreement of the holder of the lease, licence or agreement. One problem is that, with no disputes procedure, there is no compensation for a licence-holder if their licensed renewable site is to be overridden for access to gas and oil.
I do not think that there is much disagreement. There is, and has been, a clear wish within this Committee to ensure that we maximise all our resources for all energy sources. However, I have concerns that, if some kind of dispute procedure or something along the lines suggested in the amendment is not put in place, the Government could be unable to reach their targets on many renewables. If a licence can be revoked purely on the order of a Secretary of State, that lack of certainty will lead to a lack of investment.
I understand that the Minister may have concerns about the wording and the way forward. It would extremely helpful, however, if he could take this away and give some thought to the principles behind the amendment to look for a way forward that gives certainty to licence-holders of renewable energy sites.
We believe that both the offshore wind industry and the oil and gas industry are needed and can successfully coexist to ensure the nation’s energy needs are met. DECC is working with both industries and their trade associations to encourage effective co-ordination and co-operation in their respective development processes. Our expectation is that suitable consultation, planning and phasing of the respective operations will in most cases allow both developments to achieve their objectives in full, or with only minor compromise. I note what the noble Lords, Lord Oxburgh and Lord Jenkin, said on this.
At the stage of formal consent, an application from either industry to exploit the natural resources of our marine environment would be considered as part of the standard procedures of the relevant authority and be consulted upon with interested stakeholders. Any user of the sea—including oil and gas and offshore renewables industry players—is able to make representations at a number of stages, including the formal consent process and the environmental impact assessment. We recommend that interested parties do so, so that their views can be taken into account in any decision-making.
It is worth noting that the Government are well aware that this issue is causing concern, particularly to the offshore wind industry. Therefore, the department is working on a solution that is acceptable to all parties. I hope that that will help to reassure the noble Lord, Lord Whitty.
Clearly, in terms of the financial compensation that has been referred to, if the oil company is not prepared to offer appropriate compensation, there is no question of the Secretary of State intervening to override what is happening there.
We understand the motivation behind what the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, is proposing, and it is extremely important that there is equal treatment. I am a great believer in equal treatment. Therefore, we understand why he has brought this forward. We do not think it appropriate at this stage to agree this amendment to primary legislation—to hardwire it in—but we understand the issue. It is being looked at currently in DECC. Obviously we do not want any situation to develop that will disadvantage what we are trying to do with the Bill as a whole. As the noble Lord, Lord Judd, pointed out, it is the vision of where we are going as a whole that is important in this Bill. That is apparent from the Bill and everybody's involvement in it. If we bear that in mind, it is important that these issues are resolved and DECC is looking at that at the moment. I hope that in the light of that explanation, the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw his amendment.
Baroness Northover
I confirm that Clause 101 mirrors the clause and extends the powers to Scotland, so I hope that it is not room 101.
Baroness Smith of Basildon
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness who I think has taken on board my comments about Schedule 7. I apologise if I was not more explicit when I asked the noble Baroness the question, but will there be extra funding to go with those extra responsibilities for the Coal Authority?
Baroness Northover
To clarify, this is not an extra responsibility. It extends the powers of the Coal Authority. This would not lead to an additional call on the public purse as the authority would be able to charge for this additional non-coal work if it wishes to undertake it. It is not appropriate even to be thinking about whether this should be a further charge to the public purse.
Energy Bill [HL]
Debate between Baroness Northover and Baroness Smith of Basildon(13 years, 3 months ago)
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Baroness Northover
My Lords, this chapter is designed to replace the current legislation on third-party access to upstream petroleum infrastructure. Perhaps I can further clarify what information the noble Baroness has already received; she obviously has a good grasp of what this section seeks to do. It relates to access to offshore pipelines, platforms and processing facilities and to the onshore terminals and pipelines to which they connect. The existing provision, which in part dates back to 1975, has grown piecemeal. As the noble Baroness said, it is scattered over four Acts of Parliament. The procedures are not fully consistent; the definitions are not well aligned and some kinds of facilities are not explicitly covered, which is why the provision needed to be updated.
The need for third-party access is increasingly important. This is the significant point. Even after four decades of exploitation, there are 20 billion barrels or more that might still be produced from the UK continental shelf. The remaining pockets of oil and gas are typically individually small. Many are not large enough to justify dedicated pipelines or processing facilities. Economic development of these discoveries will increasingly depend on getting timely access to existing pipelines—where these have spare capacity—and on getting reasonable terms for that access. This is the kind of shift that helps to explain why this has been brought about. The time is therefore right to overhaul the existing legislation and to make sure that it is fit for purpose in this situation.
Of course, dispute resolution should not be a routine process. Third-party access can be and in the overwhelming majority of cases has been, as the noble Baroness acknowledges, agreed amicably between the parties involved. We have every intention that this should remain the case. We are fully engaged in and fully support the industry’s work to develop its own voluntary code of practice for infrastructure access. Disputes will nevertheless happen and negotiations will from time to time break down, so it is necessary that the Government should have the means of resolving an impasse where it occurs. This chapter therefore re-enacts the existing legislation, but as a unified process that has full coverage of all relevant pipelines, platforms and terminals.
Clause 78 sets out the basic procedure for resolution of disputes about access. It specifies the scope of the procedure—that is, the pipelines and other facilities to which it applies; the right of a person seeking such access to apply to the Secretary of State for the rights if unable to secure them by negotiation; the procedure that is to be followed; certain matters that are to be taken into account; and appropriate safeguards for the interests of the owners and others with existing rights. Finally, subject to that procedure and the safeguards, it sets out the powers of the Secretary of State to issue a notice granting appropriate rights to the applicant.
These provisions make two key changes. First, the current legislation provides a safeguard for the reasonable requirements of the owners for transport or processing of oil and gas and for the entitlements of other users who already have rights to the infrastructure for transport or processing. The Secretary of State must be satisfied, before making an access notice, that doing so will not prejudice these requirements or rights. In general principle, this is clearly right but, on reflection, we think that an unqualified requirement on this point will prove unduly restrictive. There will be circumstances in which introducing a third party into an existing facility will reduce, at least temporarily, the capacity available to others. If nothing else, the making of a physical connection is required, which entails a risk of interruption to operations.
We think it desirable that the Secretary of State should have a similar flexibility in determining terms for access. Accordingly, we have qualified the safeguard provision for existing capacity requirements or rights so that such rights and requirements can be effected, provided that suitable compensation is available to the affected users. The other innovation is that the access notice has effect only if accepted by the applicant within a defined time. This meets a concern that has been raised in discussion with the industry. We think that it will provide a helpful degree of clarity for all involved.
The noble Baroness made reference to this being left to the market. I emphasise that the market model applies to the Green Deal, and we are moving on to another part of the Bill here. I hope that she can see the case that is being made for why, in these circumstances, these measures need to be taken forward.
Baroness Smith of Basildon
I am grateful to the noble Baroness for giving a detailed explanation, although I am not really sure that she understood fully the points that I made. I apologise if there was not enough clarity in what I said. I have asked that a copy of the brief that was e-mailed to me today by her department should be given to her as well. I shall make sure that she receives that.
We have heard so many times about what the market mechanism will provide under the Green Deal. Previously, in this area of policy, it has been more about the commercial arrangement than market mechanisms, but the Government seek to alter that—as I understand it, on the basis of one case in which the Secretary of State has been asked to intervene. Is this an appropriate way in which to progress? Although the Secretary of State has been asked to intervene, the new clause gives the Secretary of State powers to seek information on how negotiations are going and then to issue a notice granting rights. I am concerned that the Government feel that they could be acting on behalf of one of the participants in a commercial arrangement. I am not sure that that is prevented from happening in the clauses we are discussing.
I am happy for the noble Baroness to take this away and come back to me on this matter. There was another point that she did not address. Some companies have put it to me that such a clause, whereby there can be direct intervention by the Secretary of State in what was a commercial arrangement, could impact on the investments of those companies in the industry. That is quite a serious matter, and I asked whether there had been any discussions with the industry on investment. I appreciate that she does not have the information to hand, but if she could let me know it would be very helpful.
Lord Teverson
I like this part of the Bill. Good questions have come from the noble Baroness, which we would not have dealt with in Committee otherwise. First, as the Minister says, these provisions give the opportunity for small oilfields to be exploited when the infrastructure and investment in that would not otherwise allow that at all. Secondly, to pick up the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan—although he is not in his place—it must make it possible for smaller, independent oil companies to exploit those opportunities, which would not otherwise be there if there was no sharing. The pipelines that are already there are in a certain way a ransom strip. They are a monopoly of a facility that has been invested in, rightly, by those organisations, but they give undue leverage to those organisations. Also, the fact that this legislation is here means that commercial deals will almost certainly be done, whereas they might not be if it was not here. So this is a good clause in the Bill.
Energy Bill [HL]
Debate between Baroness Northover and Baroness Smith of Basildon(13 years, 3 months ago)
Grand CommitteeRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Baroness Smith of Basildon
I appreciate the clear willingness of the noble Baroness to answer quickly. I wish to raise a very similar point, about how this legislation fits in with the existing climate change legislation in Scotland. The Scottish Parliament has preceded us on some provisions. Can the noble Baroness give us some information on discussions with Scottish Ministers, and tell us what their response has been? Many of the issues that we have raised in relation to the Green Deal and other issues would apply to these provisions as well. Obviously we would not want to have the same discussions again; but if the noble Baroness can give some outline of the discussions she has had with Scottish Ministers, it would be very helpful.
Lord Whitty
My Lords, I was not expecting to be provoked to speak on this amendment or this clause, but I speak in my capacity as former chair of Consumer Focus. It was always a little uncertain where the boundaries between reserved legislation and responsibilities applied in this area. Fuel poverty is a devolved matter, as are most aspects of energy efficiency; but, of course, Ofgem regulation is a reserved matter. I feel that quite a number of the clauses that we are about to consider stray across both areas. I am not necessarily saying that we should hold up proceedings and delay consideration today but, before this Committee finalises its activities, it would be helpful for us—and, I think, for my colleagues in the Scottish Parliament—to have a clearer delineation of which jurisdiction applies to each area of intervention. It has caused some confusion in the past under the previous Government, and we are compounding it here if we leave these clauses precisely as they are at the end of our deliberations.
Baroness Smith of Basildon
I am grateful for the noble Baroness’s response, but perhaps I may ask for clarification on one point. She said that Scottish Ministers would be consulted about the amendments. I was trying to probe whether Scottish Ministers should be consulted pre-amendment. Have there been discussions about these clauses with Scottish Ministers?
Baroness Northover
Yes, indeed. I had hoped that I had made that clear. There are ongoing discussions and there have been a lot of discussions about the Bill, the amendments, and everything in relation to this issue. The noble Baroness can be reassured that that dialogue is very much ongoing, and we regard it as extremely important.
Energy Bill [HL]
Debate between Baroness Northover and Baroness Smith of Basildon(13 years, 3 months ago)
Grand CommitteeRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Baroness Smith of Basildon
My Lords, we have discussed before the issue of skills and whether there will be enough people with the skills required to undertake the Green Deal. Amendment 20DZA would require the Government to report to Parliament before any orders or regulations were made to state where we are on the issue of skills and, in particular, on introducing Green Deal apprenticeships. When we discussed this issue, there was wide agreement on the need to ensure that the workforce has the skills available. At the weekend, the Minister for Skills made an interesting statement that recognised the need to appreciate and value skills in manufacturing and engineering. Clearly, if we are to reach the desired level of Green Deal take-up, we will need significantly to upgrade skills in engineering as well as in science and technology.
I recommend to the Minister the Aldersgate Group’s report, Mind the Gap: Skills for the transition to a low carbon economy, which was published in November 2009. The group is a high-level coalition of businesses, environmental groups, individuals who have been involved in employment and trade unions, all of whom are keen to ensure that we capitalise on the number of jobs that can be made available through environmental work. The group believes that high environmental standards could ensure that we are an international leader in the field. The report—the outcome of a project chaired by former TUC president John Edmonds—is, I found, very helpful. Its key point is that, whatever the speed of our transition to a low-carbon economy, we need to fix the skills shortage in those areas. We are not talking about a completely new skills set so we do not need to build up new skills from scratch, but we certainly need training courses and further work to enhance the current skills set.
The biggest problem identified in the Aldersgate Group report is that, because the debate on the workforce skills has moved on so quickly, people at various levels in engineering and manufacturing in the UK—including at the highest management levels—have not really understood the implications of the degree of change that needs to be made. If we are to meet the significant challenges that we want the Green Deal to overcome, we must ensure that the skills are available. Companies will need to understand the nature of the change and explain the required skills to the workforce.
A number of recommendations in the Aldersgate Group report and in other reports—including some from the Government—deal with very similar issues. What is clear from all the reports that I have looked at is that business needs certainty from Government if it is to invest in skills and equipment. The Government have the responsibility to work alongside industry and those involved in training to ensure that we have the right kind of training programmes at the right time, with the right level of skills and the right kind of skills.
These are significant issues that the Government need to address. All that we ask today is that the Government take this away, look at the level of change that is required and ensure that there are Green Deal apprenticeships in place so that we have the take-up, which will initially come through owner-occupiers—we will come later to the issue of the delays that are currently envisaged in the private rented sector. We need to ensure that we have the necessary number of people who are fully trained to undertake the jobs required.
Amendment 20DZA is a probing amendment. I will be interested in the response from the Minister, but we may want to return to the issue, as we feel that it is crucial to the success of the Green Deal.
Baroness Northover
My Lords, the Green Deal will require a trained workforce to install measures in a safe, competent and professional manner. This will be assured by a new Green Deal quality mark and accreditation framework. The noble Baroness is right that this is going to be an area for jobs growth, and the Aldersgate Group is right to highlight that. It is estimated that, as a result of the Green Deal, 100,000 jobs will be created by 2015 and 270,000 by 2025. Business does indeed need certainty, and this Bill is part of providing that certainty and the way forward.
As the noble Baroness will know, this Government have previously pledged to increase the number of apprenticeships available across all sectors. It is a promising sign that the insulation industry has already launched a pilot apprenticeship scheme, which it hopes to expand over the next year in anticipation of the Green Deal. We welcome this development and we will work with the industry to promote the use of apprentices where possible. We will be speaking further with ministerial counterparts in the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills about this matter and we will continue to liaise with them over this.
However, we feel that Amendment 20DZA as drafted may interfere with the degree of flexibility necessary to tailor the Green Deal training to the needs of the sector and may risk forcing training opportunities down an inappropriate route. We understand the purposes behind the amendment. On that basis, I hope that noble Lords will be happy that the amendment be withdrawn.
Baroness Smith of Basildon
I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment 20DZA withdrawn.
Clause 33 agreed.
After Clause 33
Baroness Northover
I thank the noble Baroness for her straightforward amendment and acknowledge her concern about the funding of any additional burdens on local authorities. I can assure noble Lords that should we require local authorities to carry out any new duties, we will make a full assessment of the costs of such actions and how they might be appropriately funded. We are already committed to ensuring that new burdens on local authorities are properly funded to avoid pressure on council tax. With this explanation and assurance, I hope that the noble Baroness will be content to withdraw her amendment.