Children and Families Bill

Baroness Northover Excerpts

Wednesday 23rd October 2013 Grand Committee

Relevant document: 7th and 9th Reports from the Delegated Powers Committee, 3rd Report from the Joint Committee on Human Rights.

[Baroness Northover (LD)]

With the leave of the Deputy Chairman of Committees, I hope it might be helpful to everyone taking part in this Grand Committee if I draw attention to the revised calendar for this Bill, published with today’s edition of forthcoming business. The calendar shows that the usual channels now hope that we will complete the Committee stage of the Bill in 11 sessions in total—that is, seven more sessions including today. It also sets out the clauses that we hope to cover each day so that people who want to take part in a particular part of the Bill can plan their diaries. The calendar is not binding but it has support across this Committee. We hope we can complete our work here on 18 November. Can I encourage everyone here to try to reach the target today, the group led by Amendment 81, so that we can complete the stage in good order?

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

My Lords, perhaps I might make a point, as a Cross-Bencher, about the amount of time that may be allowed on Report. It is a matter of some concern that this Bill has been committed to a Grand Committee when a number of people who are concerned about the Care Bill would have liked to be here. Those people may well wish to speak on Report when they would otherwise have spoken in Grand Committee. Consequently, we may find that Report lasts a bit longer than the Government would choose. Therefore, it would be helpful if the usual channels took that on board in arranging the number of days appropriate for Report.

[Baroness Northover]

I thank the noble and learned Baroness for that comment. I will of course take it back to the usual channels.

Clause 15: Care plans

Amendment 65

Moved by

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[Lord Low of Dalston]

It is me again so soon. Amendment 65C is the only amendment in this group, which means that I should be able to speak to it somewhat more briefly. The amendment is about the rights of disabled young adults. In using the term “disabled people”, I include those with SEN. Referring to disabled people will help to anchor the notion that the Bill, as we discussed as regards the previous group, should be about disabled people without SEN as well as those with SEN.

The Bill does not clearly distinguish between the rights of children and those of young adults. As the age range covered by the Bill goes from birth to 25, the rights of young adults need to be clearly differentiated. Parental responsibility for decision-making is in place until the age of 18. While that is subject to some flexibility in certain areas, such as consent to medical treatment and Gillick competency, the position is different from that relating to those aged more than 18 who have their own rights and responsibilities, and where parents do not have a specific legal role unless the young person lacks competency.

I am concerned that the Bill does not make this distinction clearly enough. Therefore, it has the potential to blur the right of young, disabled adults aged more than 18 to be involved in decisions about their own education. Amendment 65C makes clear that disabled young people must be consulted and involved in their own right, and supported to participate as fully as possible in the process. Other young people would not expect decisions about their future to be made for them, so nor should this be the case for disabled young people. I beg to move.

[Baroness Northover]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Low, for tabling this amendment. The SEN provisions bestow important new rights on young people—that is, those over compulsory school age—for the first time and the noble Lord is right to draw our attention to the distinction that we are making here.

I assure the noble Lord that the Bill already makes the distinction between children in relation to whom decisions are made by their parents and young people who make those decisions themselves. A local authority would be in breach of its duties if it failed to make such a distinction. Clause 27 requires local authorities to consult young people when it reviews its special educational provision and social care provision. Regulation 4 of the local offer regulations is very clear that local authorities must consult with young people directly over the local offer. That may be an implementation challenge for many local authorities but it does not require a change to legislation. For young people with education, health and care plans, which may be particularly relevant to what the noble Lord has just raised, it is they, not their parents, who must be consulted about their assessment and plans.

It would be impossible for a local authority to fulfil its statutory duties under these clauses without having due regard to the distinction between children and young people. The draft code is also very clear on this point: paragraph 3.2 says:

“Where there is a conflict of interests between the young person and the parent, it is the view of the young person that prevails”.

Parents are not ruled out, of course; they can still support and help a young person in whatever way the young person wants them to. Chapter 3.2 of the draft code acknowledges that,

“some young people will need support from a skilled advocate to ensure that their views are heard and acknowledged”,

and Chapter 3.3 says it is clear that,

“staff working directly with young people should be trained to support them and work in partnership with them, enabling them to participate fully in decisions about the outcomes they wish to achieve”.

I hope that this reassures the noble Lord, and I urge him to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Low of Dalston]

My Lords, there seems to be a good deal in the Minister’s response that should potentially provide quite a bit of reassurance. I want to read it, but I certainly do not intend to argue the toss about it or prolong the debate at this stage. I am happy to beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

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[Baroness Howe of Idlicote]

I will not keep the Committee for long. As my name is attached to a number of amendments in this group, I want to emphasise what the noble Baroness, Lady Howarth, has said so ably. It is crucial that from the moment at which a child can speak, their views are sought. To an extent, that may depend on how much value can be given to what they say and on their age. Nevertheless, it is important to hear what they have to say. As you get older and have great-grandchildren as well as grandchildren, the more you are aware of exactly what you are learning from their experiences, which can change your views quite considerably. I very much support the noble Baroness, Lady Massey.

[Baroness Northover]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Storey for his welcome of Clause 19, which was echoed by other Members of the Committee in this mini-debate. We fully understand the intention behind the amendments—the desire to ensure that the views of the child and his or her parent or carer, or the young person, are fully taken into account; that they are informed and can participate in making decisions, with the information and support that they need to make those decisions; and that the child or young person is supported to achieve the best possible outcomes.

I assure noble Lords, particularly my noble friend, that Clause 19 enshrines the principle that children and young people should be involved in decisions about their lives. I hope it reassures him and other noble Lords that this applies throughout Part 3, including to the clauses on assessment and planning. This is reflected in the draft code of practice, which sets out in Chapter 7.3 that in determining whether an assessment is necessary, the views, wishes and feelings of the child should be taken into account.

I point my noble friend Lord Storey and the noble Baroness, Lady Massey, to Chapter 7.4 of the code of practice, where we are explicit in setting out that:

“Children, young people and their parents are key partners in the process, and their views on how, when and to what extent they would like to engage must be taken into account. They should feel confident that they will be listened to and their opinions will be valued”.

However, I hear what noble Lords have said and I heard what the noble Baroness, Lady Hughes, said, about any inconsistencies. I am sure that we can double-check to ensure that what was intended runs through both the Bill and the code of practice.

One would normally expect parents to make decisions on behalf of their children where those children are too young or otherwise unable to make decisions, but we would also expect parents to be discussing these issues with their children and explaining to them what was going on. As I have already said, we wish to engage children, as well as young persons, as fully as we can.

We think it is right that local authorities are formally required to consult the parents of children of compulsory school age while at the same time seeking the views of the child wherever possible. For young people over compulsory school age, the Bill is clear—I hope—that it is the young person to whom consultation and notification should be directed, rather than their parents. This is an important step forward to ensure that young people can take control of the support that they receive. Of course, we recognise that parents and other family members are also likely to continue to be involved in the care of young people with SEN.

I shall briefly address Amendment 121 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Hughes, which would place specific requirements on the format of the advice provided to parents and young people. We agree that materials should be in a range of accessible formats but we do not think putting this level of detail in the Bill is the best way to go about it. We take her point that local authorities should have the discretion to produce materials in any format that they deem necessary but our worry would be that if there were a list, as it were, local authorities might focus on that. We understand fully what she is aiming at but nevertheless do not feel that it is something to put in the Bill. We believe that the code of practice is the place where we should set out what is expected in terms of formats. I also assure the noble Baroness—this is built into her amendment, although she did not flag it up—that such information, advice and support must be provided free of charge.

I assure the noble Baroness, Lady Massey, who is a trustee of UNICEF, as was I, that we are interested in looking further at how children can be directly involved, hence we are piloting a right to appeal for children. The pilot will enable us to find out whether we can take further steps towards empowering children in future.

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[Lord Ramsbotham]

My Lords, looking at the clock, I am a little alarmed. Will we rise at 7.45 pm or will we go on until this group is finished? I am already on borrowed time.

[Baroness Northover]

We plan to rise as close as we can to 7.45 pm, having completed the group. I trust that acts as a focus for what we may be able to cover. We have to bear in mind the various rules and Hansard.

[Lord Ramsbotham]

I am very grateful to the Minister, but I am extremely concerned about that because this group introduces very serious issues to do with speech, language and communication needs. I cannot promise to be short over this because there is a number of things to say, and I know that a number of noble Lords wish to speak. I am concerned that we should rise and continue when we resume because, as I say, I have serious timing problems.