National Insurance Contributions (Secondary Class 1 Contributions) Bill Debate

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Department: HM Treasury
Lord Eatwell Portrait Lord Eatwell (Lab)
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I agree, but adding more exemptions is adding to the pile. What we desperately need is a reform of our tax system that removes exemptions and forces Governments to make policy by deciding which goods and services they are going to subsidise.

Baroness Noakes Portrait Baroness Noakes (Con)
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My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, on simplification of the tax system; indeed, I have made many speeches on that subject in the past. I also agree that as a matter of principle it is not good to layer exemptions on to any taxes, but we have to see here that the Government have chosen to use a very blunt instrument to raise taxes, so we are faced with a problem. Do we just accept this blunt instrument bludgeoning whole sectors of our community or do we try to make it a bit better? I think that, on grounds of public policy, it is reasonable to make exceptions in order to ameliorate the effect of a dangerously wide imposition of these additional taxes on employment.

Lord Blackwell Portrait Lord Blackwell (Con)
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My Lords, as the noble Baroness said, the easiest way to avoid exemptions would be not to raise this tax at all; then we would not have to deal with the sectors that will be hit hard by it. I very much support the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Scriven, and I hope that it will come to a vote on Report, so that we can all support it. As other noble Lords have said, I particularly want to extend that to other charities, which I think are covered by Amendment 5 in this group.

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Baroness Noakes Portrait Baroness Noakes (Con)
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Is the Minister going to address the amendment?

Lord Livermore Portrait Lord Livermore (Lab)
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Yes, I am. I said that I wanted to set out some context at the outset. I know that the noble Baroness may not like that context, but it is why we are here today, after all.

That meant taking some very difficult decisions on welfare, spending and tax, including those in the Bill. I recognise that this involves asking some businesses to contribute more and that the impacts of the Bill will be felt beyond businesses. These are difficult decisions—not ones we wanted to take—and I understand and respect the very legitimate concerns that have been raised, both during today’s debate and outside this House. Crucially, however, and I may find myself making this point repeatedly during these debates, noble Lords who oppose the measures in the Bill must be clear. Do they propose instead more borrowing, lower spending or alternative tax-raising measures? That is the key question at the heart of these debates.

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Baroness Noakes Portrait Baroness Noakes (Con)
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My Lords, the whole Committee has, I know, great respect for the immense knowledge and expertise in economics of both the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, and his colleague, the noble Lord, Lord Layard. Laying out a theoretical argument about what happens to employment and demand in the economy is entirely valid, but it ignores what actually happens at the level of the individual enterprise, employer or employee.

In her amendment, the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, talks about the impact on a specific group of employees. There is nothing in what the noble Lord had to say about the overall macroeconomic impact, which will affect the attractiveness of continuing to employ veterans if the cost of employing them is going to go up. In debating the previous group, we talked about whether community pharmacies could stay in business, given the additional costs that would arise for those businesses. We have to remember that this is not a highly theoretical exercise: the imposition of these massive national insurance changes is going to have a huge impact at the micro level. That is what we are trying to explore in many of the amendments we will look at in Committee, today and next week. They are not answered by theoretical answers at a macro level.

Lord Altrincham Portrait Lord Altrincham (Con)
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My Lords, I rise to speak to this group of amendments surrounding the exemption of veterans’ salaries from this NI jobs tax; the lead amendment was moved by the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Newnham. This is a helpful group of amendments to remind us—just as my noble friend Lady Noakes has reminded us—that the social costs of this taxation initiative will fall on individuals. Although we talk about economics in an aggregate manner and debate it in the aggregate, there are social costs, and they are very real.

In the aggregate, the Treasury may do quite well from this rise because of wage inflation. Wage inflation is a tremendous friend to the Treasury and will more than make up for the gap that the noble Lord mentioned at the start, which is that we need to find other sources of revenue. Wage inflation is going to support the Government quite nicely through this, but that cuts both ways: obviously, it has an aggregate and fiscal benefit, but it hits hard because the cost of employment goes up a lot. There is a double effect and we are probably seeing that right now.

Putting aside the theory about whether we lose jobs in one place and offset them somewhere else, we know that we were down 50,000 jobs in December; the OBR number is an aggregate loss of 50,000 through this initiative. That is a tremendous estimate, of course—who is to say that it has any better insight than anybody else?—but it is already down by 50,000 in December. It is probably a combination of wage inflation and expected tax rises, but that is 50,000 people who are out of a job. As we look through these amendments, we might pause and reflect. Who are these vulnerable employees? Who is actually going to bear the social cost of this change?

These amendments perfectly encapsulate the problem, which is that these changes will fall on people who are, and have already been identified as, vulnerable in one form or another. Observations about tax complexity may have been well made by the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell and, by the way, it is not just tax avoidance that is a burden to the economy. Tax compliance is a burden to the economy, as all forms of taxation in this country have become very complex and are a tremendous drag on the economy as things stand. However, that is how we manage our affairs.

While we look at this issue, we might pause and think about where the costs fall on individuals—in this case, on veterans. The previous Conservative Government ensured that veterans were a priority. They guaranteed that the funding was sufficient to support veterans in securing highly paid and skilled employment in key sectors across our economy, utilising the skills that they developed in the military.

In April 2024, veteran employment was at an all-time high of 89% owing to various initiatives, including the 12-month national insurance relief for employers hiring a veteran into their first role out of military service. This tax incentive was highly beneficial for veterans and business. Following its introduction in 2022, this relief was extended in 2023 and again in the following year, 2024. Following the Government’s decision to impact business through this tax decision, will the Minister at least confirm that they intend to continue this business relief to ensure that our veterans are able to find employment after their service and that businesses are able to benefit from their unique skills and experience?

Our military deserve the utmost respect for the service they provide to our country and, as such, the veterans deserve that same level of respect. This tax will be harmful to these people, and if the Government are unwilling to exempt them, at the very least they must explain how they have arrived at the conclusion that it will not be exceptionally detrimental to the employment rate of veterans.

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Lord Livermore Portrait Lord Livermore (Lab)
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My Lords, in answer to the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, as I have said, the Government and the OBR have already set out the impacts of the policy change. The information provided is in line with the approach for other tax changes and the Government do not intend to publish additional assessments.

Baroness Noakes Portrait Baroness Noakes (Con)
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My Lords, before the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, speaks again to her amendment, the Minister said that what the Government have provided is in line with what they did for other tax changes. I remind him that this is not a tax. The reason we are scrutinising this Bill is that it is not a tax; it is national insurance. I do not think that the Minister can run a line saying that, just because this Bill comes from the Treasury, the Treasury is allowed to produce whatever minimalist, large-font document, with no information in, that it wants. There is an obligation on government to produce impact assessments for major policy changes—and, my goodness me, this is a major policy change and I do not think we will be giving up this particular pursuit in Committee.

Lord Livermore Portrait Lord Livermore (Lab)
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HMRC has provided a tax information note, as it does for all similar policy changes. The Government have no intention of publishing additional assessments.

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Viscount Stansgate Portrait The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Viscount Stansgate) (Lab)
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We now move on to the next group. I call Amendment 6 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe.

Baroness Noakes Portrait Baroness Noakes (Con)
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My Lords, before we start on that amendment, it is 7.28 pm and the Committee is due to finish at 7.45 pm. It always used to be the custom that if we would cover only a very short part of a group, we would normally draw stumps at that stage. That is the way it has always been done in the past. Obviously, we do not absolutely have to finish every group, but we do not normally start a quite significant group with a large number of amendments when there are so few minutes left, so I would like clarification on what will happen in this Committee.

Viscount Stansgate Portrait The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Viscount Stansgate) (Lab)
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In answer to the noble Baroness, I am in the hands of the usual channels.

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Baroness Blake of Leeds Portrait Baroness in Waiting/Government Whip (Baroness Blake of Leeds) (Lab)
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I understand that Amendment 17 has been withdrawn in the Chamber.

Baroness Noakes Portrait Baroness Noakes (Con)
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I am grateful to the noble Baroness for those comments. In the spirit of good will in the Committee, this would be an appropriate time for us to draw stumps.

Viscount Stansgate Portrait The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Viscount Stansgate) (Lab)
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In the spirit of good will, the Committee is adjourned.