Trade Union Bill

Debate between Baroness Neville-Rolfe and Lord Kerslake

Tuesday 3rd May 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe]

In the circumstances, it would be right to hear the noble Lord, Lord Kerslake.

[Lord Kerslake]

I am very grateful to the House for giving me the opportunity to speak. I was going to convey my apologies for lateness for the exact reason given by the noble Lord, Lord King—I had a different understanding of the timetable. All I can say is that I am learning fast.

I wholeheartedly welcome the movement on electronic balloting, and the Minister will know how passionately I feel about this. The fact is that it is both a secure and effective system for testing the opinion of different groups. It has been used on many occasions by many organisations for very important votes, and I believe passionately that it should be made available to the unions, particularly where we have set thresholds that must be met before they can take industrial action.

Trade Union Bill

Debate between Baroness Neville-Rolfe and Lord Kerslake

Wednesday 16th March 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe]

My Lords, I have explained that we already have the power, and we also have the will to move in this direction. However, for the reasons I have stated, we should not agree to the review set out in the amendment. As I was saying, other countries have struggled to implement online voting successfully and sustainably. The Speaker’s commission identified 14 countries that have tried internet voting for binding elections, which included five countries—the UK, Finland, the USA, the Netherlands and Spain—which either piloted or fully adopted electronic voting and then decided to discontinue its use.

There is a problem here. The only country that has succeeded with a sustainable system is Estonia, and that is because its ID card system makes it unique. I met with the President recently and we had an interesting discussion about this. Of course, it is possible there because their system is different.

On the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Kerslake, of course, the concept of a review is not new and, as I said, a lot has already been done to review the case for electronic balloting. I have spoken of the Speaker’s Commission on Digital Democracy, which published a report on 26 January last year. Obviously, the Electoral Reform Services looked at the case for e-voting for trade unions in the UK and published its findings—indeed, they were published online—and WebRoots Democracy published a report on 26 January on secure voting with contributions from global experts and academics in the electronic voting field. Therefore, we are not short of reviews.

Against that background and despite the excellent points made by noble Lords, I cannot agree with the amendment because it irrevocably commits the Secretary of State to press ahead with a strategy for the rollout of electronic balloting, irrespective of any problems the review finds. I have tried to explain that another review could find problems—it is not absolutely dead easy. As I have said, we have the power to permit e-balloting, and we will use it when we are convinced that all the concerns have been addressed. This is why the current legislation is framed as it is, and for good reason.

I am conscious that this all sounds rather negative but, rightly, noble Lords want to know what problems prevent us agreeing to electronic balloting and I hope I have given a flavour of them. There has been a good deal of positive progress in the way technology can help to address these issues, and that is reflected in the reports I have cited.

I hope that I have been clear. I have listened to the case for the amendment and the case made at other stages of the Bill but, for the reasons I have given, the Government do not support the amendment and I encourage the noble Lord to withdraw it.

[Lord Kerslake]

My Lords, I am grateful for all the contributions to this debate. In the interests of time, I will not go through every single one but I am deeply grateful for what noble Lords have said. A number of noble Lords expressed puzzlement about the Government’s position, but I fear that the Minister’s response has not ended my puzzlement.

Perhaps I may briefly take up a couple of points before I conclude. The first is that security is relative. We are not talking about absolute security here; we are talking about whether electronic balloting can be as secure as postal balloting. I hope I made it clear beyond doubt that, specifically in respect of balloting for industrial action, there is no argument: it is as secure. One might have a debate about it in relation to elections but, for this purpose, it is as secure.

Secondly, we are clear that this is an independent review. My amendment says that the Secretary of State should consider that review and come back with a strategy. Of course, if the review concluded that the whole thing was impossible, we would have to think again, but from everything I know, I am absolutely convinced that it is not; indeed, electronic balloting is now used for very important elections.

I am very sorry that we have not seen more movement from the Government on this issue. I am deeply disappointed and I am afraid that I wish to test the opinion of the House.

Trade Union Bill

Debate between Baroness Neville-Rolfe and Lord Kerslake

Tuesday 23rd February 2016 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills and Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Baroness Neville-Rolfe) (Con)]

I thank noble Lords for these amendments, which allow me to try to clarify on which public sector employers the regulations could impose publication requirements by virtue of Clause 12. As I mentioned, the purpose of the government amendment we agreed earlier was to provide the clarification the amendments seek. The government amendments I outlined I think go further than the concerns reflected in these opposition amendments. They also respond to the concerns voiced in the other place regarding the importance of public authorities knowing whether they will be required to publish information. I had hoped that sending a letter would help, but I am not sure it has, so let me try to respond. I say in advance that I will look at the issue again in the light of the comments that have been made this evening and the point that the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, made about delegated powers.

The first point is that since the debate in the other place the facility time regulations will now apply only to public sector employers with 50 or more employees to make sure that any burden is not placed on small employers. That will include smaller heritage institutions. In fact, this will reduce the number of employers who will be affected from the estimate which we set out in the impact assessment for this clause. Whereas some categories of public sector employer have a set definition, such as government departments, which are listed clearly on GOV.UK, there are public sector employers for which there is no such readily available definition or list.

The noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, asked who will be included in the list of public-sector employers. When determining which bodies will be required to publish information, regard was given to those bodies, as I think she said, classified by the Office for National Statistics as public sector bodies within the national accounts. We ran into the ONS, of course, when we debated the Enterprise Bill in relation to the Green Investment Bank.

We propose to include within the regulations those bodies that are funded wholly or partially from public funds, that provide functions or services of a public nature, that have more than 49 employees, as I have said, and that have at least one trade union official. I agree that,

“funded wholly or partially from public funds”,

probably needs to be the subject of my review.

An example is the definition of “public authority”, which I understand has a commonly understood meaning, but where the precise boundaries are is not clear. There are employers whose functions are of a public nature, and which are publicly funded, that may not be considered to be a public authority for other purposes. In that respect I cannot agree with the proposed use of the term in Amendment 81, as it would not capture the appropriate range of public-sector employees or provide the clarity that we need.

Amendment 82 expresses the concern that regulations would be applied to, for example, private companies receiving a small amount of public funding and, in turn, the reserve power to cap facility time in Clause 13 could then be applied to those organisations. That is not and never has been our intention, as my letter explained.

The noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, queried the position of academies. Academies are established in different ways from other publicly funded schools, but they are still publicly funded so it is right that they are accountable for how the money is spent.

[Lord Kerslake (CB)]

I would like to raise a question that is relevant to this debate. In doing so, I declare my interest as chair of Peabody. Peabody is a housing association that the Minister will know was classified, along with other housing associations, as a public body. The Government have rightly recognised that that was inappropriate and wrong, and are taking steps to deregulate for housing associations in order to take them away from being classified as public bodies.

I am unclear where that leaves this regulation. Would we see them as “in”, and therefore regarded for the purposes of this Bill as public bodies? In another Bill that is being taken through at the same time, we are trying very hard to get them out of public-body status.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe]

I thank the noble Lord for his comments. As part of my checking up on this, I will look at that point, but my recollection is that, as he says, we are trying to get housing associations out of being public bodies, so they should not be covered for the reasons that I have already stated.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe]

The noble Lord makes a fair point. As I have said, we would consider all relevant factors before using the reserve powers, and our impact assessment addresses some of those. If you are looking to use a reserve power, you obviously look at both sides of the argument.

I have not had time to do much about this amendment and I am not promising a concession but I would be very happy to meet the noble Lord and other interested noble Lords to discuss further the concerns around the amendment. In the mean time, I ask the noble Lord to withdraw the amendment.

[Lord Kerslake]

I apologise for the lateness in tabling this amendment and therefore for the short amount of time that the Minister has had to consider it. I would be very happy to take up her offer of a meeting to discuss it.

There is indeed a cost attached to the amendment but, for me, it is a cost of good government: when decisions are made on issues of this importance, the information, the facts, the analysis and the benefits should be available. In effect we are going to be taking decisions with only a partial picture of the impact, and what is proposed in the amendment would be a way of properly securing a full picture.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe]

I would just add that a lot of the provisions in the Bill reflect clear manifesto commitments. We have sought to make an assessment, although it is not perfect in every respect. I am obviously very happy to debate this matter further—that is what Committee stage is always about—but I think that some of the provisions that we have put forward have merit. You cannot always do every bit of cost-benefit analysis, although everybody in the Committee knows that I am probably keener on that than any other Minister in the Government.

[Lord Kerslake]

I thank the Minister and beg leave to withdraw the amendment.