16:26 - Division on Amendment 3 - Ayes: 320 / Noes: 181 - Amendment 3 agreed.
18:13 - Division on Amendment 9 - Ayes: 320 / Noes: 172 - Amendment 9 agreed.
19:30 - Division on Amendment 20 - Ayes: 248 / Noes: 160 - Amendment 20 agreed.
The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Lord Bridges of Headley) (Con)
My Lords, I begin by saying that I have read the previous debates and have met a number of your Lordships; I thank those I met for their time. I acknowledge the misgivings that have been expressed about this policy and I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, for extending the hand of friendship and co-operation on this. Before I address the point on scope, I repeat a key point to your Lordships that I wish no one to forget: it is not the intention that facility time is to be banned. As has been said—I repeat again—trade union representatives provide a valuable role in many organisations and facility time will always have a role to play throughout the public sector.
On scope, we are clear in our aim to cover core public bodies—employers that the taxpayer would expect to be covered by public sector transparency regulations. To meet this aim, our approach is to include public sector bodies in the regulations only if they meet the following policy aims. First, bodies that we wish to capture are already listed in Schedule 1 to the Freedom of Information Act 2000 or the Freedom of Information (Scotland) Act 2002—I refer to both of them as FOIA. We believe that whether a body is in scope of Schedule 1 to FOIA is a good indicator of whether they are a public authority for the purpose of Clause 12. However, to include all the employers on Schedule 1 to FOIA would be too wide for our aims. I totally take the point that the noble Baroness makes about small organisations. We will filter organisations out of this list where their inclusion would not be appropriate. The regulations will place obligations only on employers with more than 49 employees and at least one trade union representative. FOIA Schedule 1 includes several bodies that do not currently meet this criterion and will thus not be obliged to follow the publication. They will, however, appear in the regulations and it will be for any such body to appropriately exclude itself if it does not meet the criteria. This is in recognition of the fact that the size of organisations and their trade union membership is likely to fluctuate over time.
Next, in the event that at some point in the future the Government were to identify a body that is not in Schedule 1 to FOIA and not capable of being added, we would seek to capture such a body, relying on the powers in Clause 12(9), only where the body has not been set up to function in a predominantly commercial, competitive, or market-facing way; has more than 49 employers and one or more trade union representative; and has functions of a public nature and is funded wholly or partly from public funds. Furthermore, if the Government wish to add new bodies that pass these tests, they propose to amend the Bill so that the powers in subsection (9) are exercisable by affirmative resolution. This House would then have the chance to scrutinise and debate any regulations that the Government bring forward to include these bodies that are not public authorities but carry out functions of a public nature.
In the light of the noble Baroness’s wish to consider the content of my letter and potentially revisit this issue at Third Reading to discuss it further, I hope that the approach set out my letter, which the Government intend to stand by, will enable us to avoid revisiting this issue in depth at Third Reading. I have already also referred to the Government’s commitment to make the extension of the list an affirmative resolution procedure before the Bill leaves this House. On this basis, I hope that the noble Baroness will feel free to withdraw her amendment this evening.
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town
I thank the Minister for that. I think we have made progress. The Bill will probably need to be amended to take account of the approach that the Government are now taking. On the basis of our looking forward to future discussions and returning to this, we hope very quickly, at Third Reading, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord McKenzie of Luton (Lab)
My Lords, I support Amendment 20 and the arguments advanced by the noble Lord, Lord Kerslake. I will concentrate my brief remarks on the provisions in the Bill that relate to safety reps, and in doing so I declare my interests as president of RoSPA and a vice-president of the LGA. Concentrating on health and safety reps is not in any way meant to undermine the broader thrust of the amendment as it applies more generally.
As a preamble, I reiterate points raised in Committee about the importance of TU safety reps and the positive impact that they have on the safety culture of their employers. There is an abundance of evidence about the importance of effective health and safety systems and that these systems work best when trade unions and employers work together. That is why the Health and Safety at Work etc. Act gave legal backing to union safety reps and why, rather than seeking to undermine or weaken the system, the Government should be concerned with its promotion and enhancement.
I would argue that the Government are in error in including health and safety reps’ time as facility time. Facility time is time off from an individual’s job granted by the employer to enable a representative to carry out their trade union role. We have heard why this should not be constrained in the manner proposed in the Bill. A safety rep, however, although appointed by a trade union, does not fulfil a trade union role as such. It is a specific legal position with defined functions, and the regulations state that in this capacity it must represent all workers in a workplace, not just union members.
This comes about not only from the Health and Safety at Work etc. Act but by Article 11 of the 1989 EU framework directive which deals with consultation and participation of workers. The directive specifically states:
“Employers must allow workers’ representatives with specific responsibility for the safety and health of workers adequate time off work, without loss of pay, and provide them with the necessary means to enable such representatives to exercise their rights and functions deriving from this Directive”.
There is no limit on this, but it would have to be reasonable. The UK regulations use the phrase “as shall be necessary”, which will obviously vary from workplace to workplace and from time to time. The exercise of reserve powers under Clause 13, which are triggered by consideration of the information requirements of Clause 12, would be entirely inconsistent with the directive, which focuses on the need for adequate time off to exercise rights and functions. The latter must have regard to the circumstances of individual workplaces, which, as I say, can vary from location to location and from time to time.
Moreover, the legal requirement under the directive is for the employer to comply in allowing time off. This is as it should be, because it is generally the employer who creates the risks which have to be managed. It is not for the Government to second-guess in respect of either public sector workplaces in aggregate or individual workplaces in particular. Can the Government spell out for us the circumstances in which they envisage using these reserve powers to limit the time of safety representatives otherwise agreed between an employer and a trade union? What evidence do they have that there is an abuse of the system as the law stands? The Minister in the other place, Nick Boles, is on record as acknowledging that:
“An employer must allow them”—
safety reps—
“as much paid time off work as is necessary or reasonable to perform their statutory functions, and we absolutely do not propose to change that rule”.—[Official Report, Commons, Trade Union Bill Committee, 22/10/ 15; col. 352.]
In that case, why they are potentially subject to reserve powers in Clause 13 and why will the Government not remove those powers?
There is one other point. The Bill applies only to trade union representatives. The Minister will be aware that there are two sets of regulations covering workplace representatives: the 1977 regulations, which apply only to trade union reps, and the 1996 regulations, which apply to representatives for workplace safety in non-unionised workplaces. If the Bill is passed in its current form, the Government will be able to restrict time off given to trade union representatives in the public sector but not to non-trade union ones. Is this the intention and why do the Government seek to discriminate against trade union reps in this manner? Can the Minister tell us how this measure is consistent with the fairness obligation that was set out at the start of our proceedings?
Lord Bridges of Headley
My Lords, I am grateful for the contributions this evening. I will try to keep my remarks relatively brief but hope to explain why I believe this measure is both proportionate and reasonable. First, as has been said, the reserve power may never need to be used. Our intention is that the transparency measures that I have outlined before, as noble Lords know full well, should encourage employers to moderate their spending where necessary. To pick up on the point that the noble Baroness, Lady Watkins, made, managers will, for the first time, be able to easily compare their spending with others in their sector. However, if for some reason inefficient spending is not addressed, it is only right that there is a reserve power to ensure that wasteful use of taxpayer funding does not continue.
Noble Lords should remember that even if this power were to be used, as I have said before, facility time will not be banned, as the Government note the considerable contribution that it makes. That brings me to the process that would have to be followed if these powers were to be exercised. First, as the reserve powers are subject to the affirmative resolution process, this House would have the opportunity to debate and scrutinise any cap that may be proposed. Secondly, crucially, implementation of the reserve powers must be rational and evidence based. Ministers must have regard to the relevant information to make their decision. If Ministers do not do so, they invite upon themselves the prospect of judicial review proceedings. The cap is a power of the last resort, and cannot be applied without due and proper consideration of all relevant factors.
I now turn to what might trigger the cap. The reserve powers are most likely to be triggered in one of two circumstances. First, if unjustifiably high patterns of spend were found to persist in certain parts of a sector, that would signal a need to investigate further why they were happening. If the answer were to be that particular parts of a sector needed to do more to control spending, a decision may be taken to apply a cap to that sector or part of that sector. Secondly, if a significant proportion of the cost of facility time is spent on trade union activities as opposed to duties—a key difference—across a sector, we may question why expenditure for which there is no statutory entitlement is being given such priority. We may conclude that such spending does not reflect reasonable prioritising of public funds and suggest applying a cap at a level we believe is reasonable.
If either of these situations were to arise, the Minister must present the case for using the reserve powers to Parliament to secure affirmative resolution. Before the Minister can do that, as I have said, they will have gathered trend data showing patterns of spend to support a rational, evidence-based case for why a cap should be made at a particular level. If Ministers do not feel they have sufficient data to arrive at a decision, they may also choose to consult the relevant sector. This House would of course have the opportunity to debate that cap.
I note the concerns that this is anti-localism but if a cap were to be imposed, it would still be up to local managers to decide how to manage facility time within the cap: for example, by deciding how they should prioritise trade union duties as opposed to activities. Working within budgets, while still meeting statutory duties, is not a novel concept in the public sector.
Turning specifically to devolution, I would argue again that this matter of industrial relations is entirely within the legislative competence of the United Kingdom Government. If an organisation is publicly funded, it should be held to account for how taxpayers’ money is spent. Taxpayers in Scotland and Wales have the same right to transparency about how much money and resource is dedicated to industrial relations—a reserved matter—as taxpayers in England.
A valid concern was raised about the effect of a very restrictive cap, were one to be placed on facility time spending, and what that might do as regards health and safety obligations. I cannot envisage any circumstances under which this Government would introduce such a restrictive cap that important statutory obligations could not be met. We would certainly take account of what was necessary to ensure such union duties could be properly performed. After all, to do otherwise would leave the Government exposed to challenge by judicial review. For that reason, we do not expect there to be any conflict with employers being able to meet their statutory duties, but we are not going to dictate to them the minutiae of how they may do that. As a final reassurance, if required, the Bill contains the power to make exceptions to the cap to meet statutory obligations.
At the end of the day, by removing the cap entirely, the Government would be able to point to where taxpayers’ money could be saved or better spent, but be unable to do anything about it. Government needs the power to act in a reasonable and accountable way. Under our proposals, this House will have the opportunity to scrutinise any cap, were one to be introduced. Ministers must have regard to relevant information to make their decision; failure to do so risks judicial review. Union duties such as health and safety will remain a statutory obligation. With that in mind, I ask that the noble Lord withdraws his amendment.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
Before the noble Lord sits down, could he just deal with the point about the difference between non-trade union reps being covered under one set of regulations and trade union reps under another? Why is that discrimination being allowed in the Bill?
Lord Bridges of Headley
My Lords, we need to make sure that taxpayers’ money is properly accounted for, wherever it is spent. My understanding is that that is the rationale behind this.
Lord Kerslake
My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for giving his response and for the contributions to this debate, which have been most valuable. This provision can be described only as overweening central power, with no justification whatever. The Minister said that public bodies—in the main, local authorities—should be accountable for what they spend. Yes, they should be, but to their local electorate. That electorate will be able to see exactly how much the authority spends and what they get for it, and to form their own opinion. Do we seriously think that the process of democratic control cannot deal with less than 0.2% of the pay bill? It is, I am afraid, absurd and it has not been defended.
I will make one last point before we go forward on this. The Minister said that there would be flexibility within the cap to decide what arrangements there would be. Within this clause, there is provision for the Secretary of State to say: “I don’t like the fact that you are doing 100% time, trade union representative: I would like to change it to 50%, or maybe 25%”. There is not even the ability to make the decision on the deployment of whatever cap is created. This is overweening centralism, so I beg to test the opinion of the House.