House of Lords (Hereditary Peers) Bill

Baroness Neville-Rolfe Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 1st April 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Leigh of Hurley (Con)]

I am coming to the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, in a minute.

Of course, we would not do that. Likewise, I believe we can respect where we come from and recognise our rich fabric of community by allowing people who are proven to be good at their job and represent how democracy came to this country over centuries, as power was wrestled from the monarchy, to be allowed to continue to have a presence here.

As a meritocrat, I accept the argument that the best people should be appointed to this House, and it is not as if we would start from here by appointing new hereditaries—although my mum keeps telling me that she reckons I am up for an earldom, but I think that is unlikely. I hasten to add that, in my view, as the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, said, anyone in this House who does not contribute sufficiently and appropriately should be asked to leave forthwith. This amendment would allow people who are clearly capable, and who have the hugely valuable assets of institutional memory and years of experience, to remain.

I had in my script to say that the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb, is right—it is not an expression I am used to, but she none the less makes the point that the hereditaries in this House fought to come in, through an election, because they wanted to serve.

If we are totally honest with ourselves, there is, as the noble Baroness, Lady Mallalieu, said, a certain randomness as to why any of us are here. The little that I know about the appointment process has shown me that it is perhaps more random than is generally recognised. I suggest to the Committee that to adopt the amendment is to do the right thing for people who have served us well and continue so to do.

We are told that poll after poll supports the abolition of hereditaries, and that might be true—I am not so sure. Even if it is, I think most people would accept that there is room for a very small percentage of Members of this House to come from a hereditary background and be allowed to serve their time. This amendment is in another fine British tradition: for a suitable compromise to be acceptable.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

My Lords, this is an important Bill, and I am sorry not to have spoken on it before, owing to my commitments on the Front Bench at a busy time for the economy. My noble friend Lady Mobarik is right to press the Government on the transitional arrangements. I will focus on two points in that context. The first is the loss of talent and experience that we face, and the damage that that could do to our scrutiny function at a time of great challenge and change in our country. The second is the pressure that will grow for an elected House if all our hereditary Peers disappear overnight, as currently planned.

I have been reading a book called Judgement at Work by Andrew Likierman, a former dean of the London Business School. He defines judgment as

“the combination of personal qualities with relevant knowledge and experience … to make decisions or to form opinions”.

Length of time in a role, or a succession of roles, improves judgment because prior experiences remain accessible sources of knowledge and provide an understanding of success and failure.

We are lucky to have many long servers among our hereditary Peers—280 years of service, in the words of my noble friend Lord Shinkwin. Many also have experience of responsibility outside government and have learned, over time, to cope with complexity and risk, to listen, to work with others and to know who to trust. Those are all ingredients of judgment—soundness of judgment—as well. In view of what the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, said, I should add “hard work” as a very important quality that has been demonstrated by the hereditary Peers.

They also come from across the country. We heard from my noble friend Lady Mobarik about Scotland and from my noble friend Lady Foster of Aghadrumsee about the importance of Northern Ireland representation. They provide a good mix, as we have seen today, with other Members of the House who are often from political backgrounds and very focused on the south-east.

To develop the argument, I will cite three examples. The first is our deputy Conservative leader, my noble friend Lord Howe. He has sat in this House for 40 years and is a master of the art of scrutiny in the most courteous and compelling way. When I arrived, he was a Health Minister and the person whom I and most others chose to model ourselves on—effective at the Dispatch Box, in the tea rooms and in Whitehall. More recently, he steered the difficult legislation on infected blood through the House, working across party to excellent effect. All that experience as a Minister of Agriculture, Health, Defence and at the FCO, and in opposition, is helpful to the Government of the day and to the House as a whole.

My second example is the noble Lord, Lord Londesborough, with whom I have had the pleasure of working on amendments to the national insurance contributions Bill. He worked as a foreign correspondent at the start of his career, but he is a serial entrepreneur and was able to produce spreadsheets on the impact of the NICs changes on small businesses he was involved with—which the Treasury unfortunately had refused to provide. It would be a great pity to lose that practical business voice. Some life Peers, including myself, speak in the House with the benefit of business spectacles, but, of course, we get out of date as we cease to be involved with business day to day. Keeping voices such as that of my noble friend Lord Londesborough would help us to reach sound, common-sense judgments from experience.

Thirdly, the noble Lord, Lord Vaux of Harrowden, has an impressive background in finance and he brings that to our debates and committees. The noble Lord, Lord Shinkwin, noted the hereditaries’ important role in committees. I highlight the valuable role the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, played in particular as chair of the House’s Finance Committee. He may not thank me for saying so, as the concept probably will not see the light of day, but he suggested to me the brilliant idea of dealing with the restoration of the Palace of Westminster by building a small US-style service tower in one of the courtyards, no doubt in Pugin style, and then concreting in the basement services. This novel idea would reduce the risk of fire and of asbestos contamination during the renovation and, I suspect, would cost much less. The point is that it shows the value of critical thinking—we must not lose that.

That brings me on to my second theme. I think the current mixture of Peers appointed by successive Prime Ministers, especially if there are not too many of them, Bishops and the historic element, just about works, partly because of the mix of views, experience, age and skills that are represented. Without those who are currently hereditaries, it becomes much more difficult to justify a wholly appointed House. Moreover, giving a lot of power to the great and the good on HOLAC would not help at all. I believe that, if we indulge the brutal decapitation of the hereditary Peers later this year, we will rightly face growing demands for an elected House. Noble Lords should reflect on this and on the discussions today around my noble friend’s amendment before they vote on this Bill. In the words of the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of St Albans, we need evolution, not revolution.

Plan for Change: Milestones for Mission-led Government

Baroness Neville-Rolfe Excerpts

Thursday 12th December 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

First, on the nutrients neutrality issue, the noble Lord will be aware that the previous Government’s proposal was to override environmental concerns. We were very concerned that there should be mitigations in that legislation to ensure that it did not just override environmental concerns but took those into account. I have listened to some of the discussions on the environment and housing, and the two should go hand in hand: we should be looking to create good-quality housing and a good environment at the same time. I have looked at some of the proposals. The noble Baroness, Lady Taylor, and I both come from new towns, and there are some great examples and some poor ones. Where you have green lungs in new towns, green gyms surrounding housing and nature areas within developments, those are really important. Our commitment is both to the environment and to increasing housing.

On immigration, I can understand the noble Lord’s embarrassment about the last Government’s record. I think we were all shocked when we saw how much the figures had gone up and how inaccurate the previous Government’s figures were. It is fundamental to our polices that economic growth, secure borders and the security of the nation go hand in hand. Some £700 million was spent on a bound-to-fail, flawed Rwanda immigration policy, and we can all think of ways that could have been much better spent—actually processing asylum claims and securing our borders. The Prime Minister has undertaken work, building up relationships with other countries and looking for agreements with them. Some people leave their country and seek refuge, asylum and a better quality of life here because they are fleeing war or poverty, for example. We should be working internationally to address those issues and not just spending a lot of money on flawed policies.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

My Lords, I was glad to hear the Leader of the House talk about the use of external expertise in moving forward these milestones and missions. As somebody who came from business and has worked within government, I think different perspectives are very helpful. That is particularly important with very difficult challenges on things such as skills, especially in construction and planning. It is obviously vital that we progress that fast, so I welcome the efforts that have been made. I just wanted to pick up something my noble friend Lady Finn asked, which was about how the mission boards would work, who would be attending, who would be involved and how that fitted in with Cabinet committees and so on.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

I do not have an organogram in front of me, so that is detail I probably cannot supply. But the purpose of the mission boards is to follow the missions we have in government. This is a way of having cross-governmental working, bringing key people together. If the Prime Minister is not available, the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster is. On that cross-government working, Cabinet committees work, in some ways, and some may still do so, but we felt that the mission boards better reflected the missions we have outlined and made a commitment on.

G20 and COP 29 Summits

Baroness Neville-Rolfe Excerpts

Monday 25th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, my noble friend’s experience, and his work with John Prescott, really shone through in that question. There are some exciting developments in the US on clean energy and clean power. Our relationship is with the Government—whichever Government are in power, we maintain that relationship—but also with, as he says, companies, civic society and the people of the US. We have a lot we can learn from them and share with them. I can give him an assurance that that will continue. It is a very important relationship for this country.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

My Lords, I agree very much with the Leader of the House on the need for continued international diplomacy, whatever the issues. Lord Prescott indeed played a distinct and valuable part in that work.

China is no longer a developing country, so why is it not contributing directly to the $300 billion fund for loss and damage rather than just counting what it is already doing towards the important climate change objectives agreed at COP?

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

The noble Baroness is right that China is still defined as a developing country, but I think we found a greater willingness to engage, and I hope we can make progress from that. That dialogue, and the fact that China is playing such a role and wants to play a greater part, is something that we should be optimistic about and try to build on, rather than reject.

Lords Spiritual (Women) Act 2015 (Extension) Bill [HL]

Baroness Neville-Rolfe Excerpts

3rd reading
Tuesday 22nd October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank noble Lords who spoke in the debate on the Bill and have otherwise indicated support and commented on the Bill. There have been no amendments throughout the Bill. I wish that could be said for many other Bills, but I suspect that may not be the case as we proceed. This is a straightforward Bill, limited in its scope, requested by the Church of England with the simple aim to extend by five years the arrangements in place for the appointment of Lords spiritual contained within the Lords Spiritual (Women) Act 2015.

I particularly thank the Convenor of the Lords Spiritual, the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of St Albans—and the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Leeds for being here today—for his support during the passage of the Bill, along with other noble Lords who spoke and engaged in the debate.

Your Lordships will know that, as a result of that legislation six female Bishops have already been appointed to your Lordships’ House more quickly than would otherwise have been the case. In fact, we are about to see the benefits of this legislation in place again. Following the retirement of the Bishop of Worcester, the Bishop of Peterborough will replace him in the House of Lords in due course under this legislation. I thank the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Worcester for his 12 years of dedicated service in this place, and I very much look forward to welcoming another female Bishop to the Bishops’ Benches.

Finally, I thank my officials and those from the Church of England, who worked together on the Bill. I thank the Official Opposition for their support and other noble Lords too. I hope it will have as smooth a passage in the other place. In that spirit, I beg to move.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

My Lords, I welcome the fact that the Bill has strong support in the House, and that support includes these Benches. We are pleased to work with the Government in cases such as this where our objectives are aligned. I am proud of our record supporting women in this House, and our women Bishops have made many valuable contributions to Parliament since they first became Members of your Lordships’ House. As a frequent member of church congregations, I can confirm that this reflects the sterling work of female clergy right across the country.

Finally, I thank the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of St Albans, who is not in his place but has so eloquently led for the Bishops on this matter, and the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Leeds. I thank the noble Baroness the Lord Privy Seal for her work on this Bill and I thank the officials involved. As she has said, I hope the other place looks upon the Bill favourably.

[The Lord Bishop of Leeds]

My Lords, I think it is down to me to thank the Government. All the other Bishops are at a House of Bishops residential elsewhere. I thank the Government for taking this on and thank those who contributed to the debate at different stages. This is a mechanism to allow us to make the progress which we need to make more quickly. I am grateful to the Government and the House for their support.

Ministerial Gifts and Hospitality

Baroness Neville-Rolfe Excerpts

Wednesday 16th October 2024 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the reporting and acceptance of Ministerial gifts and hospitality.

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Smith of Basildon) (Lab)]

My Lords, transparency is a critical part of restoring public faith in politics, and the Government recognise that changes are needed. At present, ministerial data on gifts and hospitality is published quarterly, compared with the parliamentary requirement in both Houses to publish monthly. The Government will correct this imbalance in future. The Government will publish a register of Members’ gifts and hospitality on a broadly equivalent basis to that which is published in the registers of Members’ and Lords’ interests.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

My Lords, the Government pledged to act with trust and integrity, and it is extraordinary that, 100 days in, we have witnessed scandal after scandal—from cronyism to cash for access, from Sue Gray to spectacles, and from designer freebies to Taylor Swift tickets and associated police outriders. Really: this seems to portray a staggering lack of judgment by the Prime Minister. Would it not be wiser to come clean and admit these initial mistakes?

Lords Spiritual (Women) Act 2015 (Extension) Bill [HL]

Baroness Neville-Rolfe Excerpts

2nd reading
Tuesday 10th September 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the Leader of the House for her clear introduction, which I will not attempt to repeat. Like her, I also thank the Church of England for making the request. I look forward to hearing from the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of St Albans, Convenor of the Lords Spiritual, and the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Derby.

I say straightaway that we support the Bill on this side of the House. It rightly rolls forward the arrangements debated and agreed without a Committee stage in 2015. This is an even shorter Bill—it simply extends the sunset clause that was agreed then and provides that female bishops will join the Lords spiritual slightly sooner than they would otherwise have done.

Of course, the presence of the Lords spiritual reflects the enduring constitutional arrangement of an established Church of England, with our monarch and Head of State as its supreme governor. Since the last debate, we have a new monarch, following the sad death of our much-loved Queen Elizabeth II and the accession of King Charles just two years ago. I was delighted at church on Sunday to hear our vicar thank the Government for making a fine portrait of our new King available for free to his and other churches across the country. I pass on these thanks to the Minister and to those in the Cabinet Office, who I know have been working so hard on this appropriate memento of the new Carolean era.

We also thank all those women bishops who have served in our House since 2015, including the now retired Bishop of Newcastle, who became a friend. We are appreciative of all they have done, leading us in prayer as well as bringing a new perspective to debates.

Looking back at the debate on the last Bill on 12 February 2015, I see there was some discussion about whether it was right to leave untouched the five ex officio sees—those led from the historic cities of Canterbury, York, London, Durham and Winchester. I think it is right that these sees should remain open to a wider pool of experience and I note with approval that, since the last debate, these have come to include both a female Bishop of London and a former Archbishop of York.

There was also concern about fairness in the debate, particularly in relation to those senior clerics, such as the then Bishop of Lincoln, whose elevation to Parliament might be delayed. But there was agreement that there was a generosity of spirit from him and others that meant this would not be a problem in the event. I am so sorry that my noble friend Lord Cormack, who was taken from us so suddenly, is not here to contribute and bear witness to the success of the changes that he was very concerned about. On a wider note, he loved Lincoln Cathedral and helped to get it to the top of a national poll of favourite cathedrals. My own favourite, Salisbury Cathedral, also did well. One of my greatest pleasures as a DCMS Minister was to visit the many cathedrals for which the last Government provided funding under the First World War centenary cathedral repairs fund and to hear some of our wonderful cathedral choirs.

Other absent friends who spoke included Baroness O’Cathain, Baroness Perry and Baroness Trumpington. I mention them because all three charted an important path as female flag-bearers and mentors. They understood the vital role women priests have played in keeping the Church of England afloat in challenging times, making the position of women bishops in the House of Lords particularly important.

It was agreed at the time that the 10-year span of the previous Bill was sufficient to provide the space needed to look at how well this legislation was working and what would happen thereafter. In the event, this was insufficient, and the result is today’s Bill, which I fully support; hopefully, this is the last such request. With six women bishops now in our House, fewer I suspect than expected, my only gentle question to the noble Baroness the Lord Privy Seal, and to those speaking for the Church, is why a five-year extension has been chosen rather than 10. Does this presage work taking place on some alternative pattern of reform and, if so, what is envisaged? I feel we should be told. Certainly, it would be wrong to find ourselves being asked for another extension in just five years’ time.

Civil Service: Recruitment

Baroness Neville-Rolfe Excerpts

Wednesday 4th September 2024 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the political neutrality of Civil Service recruitment following recent appointments to Civil Service roles.

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Smith of Basildon) (Lab)]

My Lords, the impartiality of the Civil Service is one of its fundamental principles. Civil Service appointments must follow the correct rules and processes. Previous political activity is not prohibited, but all appointees must be able to comply with the Civil Service Code. The majority of Civil Service appointments are undertaken by fair and open competition. The use of appointments by exception are set out in the recruitment principles and have been used by successive Administrations.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

My Lords, despite the assurances the noble Baroness has given, there has been widespread and, I believe, legitimate concern about the politicisation of Civil Service appointments since the election, with 10 Labour staffers having been appointed as civil servants by exception, and not as special advisers. The speed, scale and seniority have been quite new, and this is very worrying for those of us who support a politically neutral Civil Service. One way of improving matters would be to increase the transparency of the appointment process. Does the Minister agree? Would the Government ensure that any appointments made in the Civil Service by exception where the appointee has a record of recent political support for the government party are made public—and made public immediately?

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, I welcome the noble Baroness’s commitment to this issue—however recent it may be. Perhaps I can tell her that around 80,000 people were hired through open competitions and around 9,000 were hired through the different exception routes. She should look at this, because there is a very different role for special advisers and civil servants and there are criteria by which, if people are appointed to the Civil Service, they have to be agreed by the department following certain criteria and they need to abide by the Civil Service Code. I am sure she is aware of that. The same process is undertaken now as it was under previous Administrations.

House of Lords: Nominations for Appointment

Baroness Neville-Rolfe Excerpts

Tuesday 30th July 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, that is one of the considerations that those making nominations for appointment should take into account. It is very important that we continue with that breadth of expertise, and also that we renew our expertise as well so that people with more recent experience can contribute. The noble Lord makes a very valid point, as the noble Baroness did, that the experience we have in your Lordships’ House covers a range and breadth.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

My Lords, this House has a vital scrutiny and review function, it exudes history, and therefore I think everybody is right: we need a system that delivers a wide mix of Peers, and we need that to be over the long-term—it is a long-term matter, not just a short-term matter. We are glad to welcome the flush of new colleagues to the Front Bench and we accept the need for new appointments of Labour Peers, but that does not mean that the changes the Government are proposing are necessarily the right ones. We are getting rid of some of our most effective hereditary Peers and distinguished colleagues over the age of 80—experts whom we may not be able to replace—and forcing “participation”, whatever that means. Does the Minister agree that we should tread with care and proper reflection? I welcome her promise to take soundings.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, we have been treading with care and reflection for a long time now. I have lost track—I am sure somebody can advise me—how many times my noble friend Lord Grocott brought forward his Bill to end hereditary Peer by-elections. We offered the then Government the opportunity to take that forward, and they chose not to do so. That has added partly to the imbalance in numbers. I always regret when Members leave this House for any reason. What worries me is that, too often, we do not pay tribute to those who spent many years contributing; we do not say thank you to people very often. That should be borne in mind as well. Of course, at all times we tread with care and reflection.

Government Standards

Baroness Neville-Rolfe Excerpts

Thursday 25th July 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

Having just promised to give full answers, I do not have a full answer for my noble friend. I will look into that and come back to it, but we want to get moving on issues like this as quickly as possible. In his first speech in Downing Street, the Prime Minister said we have to prove to people that we will do things differently and do things well. It is not about saying something but about how we act—and how we act in getting to the bottom of some of the issues that have caused enormous concern is very important. I assure him we will do that as quickly as possible.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

Does the Leader of the House agree that one of the most serious problems we face in many areas of government has been groupthink? Does she agree that Parliament benefits from a wide range of experience of Members, both in our debates and in our committees? Does she further agree that any new rules on propriety or ethics—for example, on second jobs in either House—need to avoid discouraging informed and expert contribution so that we get different perspectives coming together in the public interest?

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

Of course. It is a given that for good decision-making it is necessary to have good input from different sources. I am unclear why the noble Baroness asked that; I would have thought it was an automatic requisite of good decision-making.

Her Majesty the Queen’s Platinum Jubilee

Baroness Neville-Rolfe Excerpts

Thursday 26th May 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

My Lords, it is a real pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Khan of Burnley, with his special—and much more youthful than some of ours—perspective. I rise to support the Motion in the name of my noble friend the Leader of the House, who made an excellent speech, and, as others have done, to congratulate Her Majesty the Queen on the 70th anniversary of her accession to the Throne. As the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, said, it is a very joyful event for the people of our country and for those of the Commonwealth.

I have always been conscious that I was born in the year of Her Majesty’s Coronation, so I am a coronation baby and still the proud owner of a commemorative coin given to me to mark the occasion. I collected stamps from an early age and grew to love that handsome sideways head on increasingly decorative stamps from across the globe. For the brief period that I was the Minister responsible for recommending the design of new postage stamps to the Queen, I discovered that she also has a very fine collection. Later, I was responsible for the Royal Mint in Wales when we issued the new 12-sided, bimetallic, counterfeit-resistant £1 coin, which bore the unmistakable portrait of the Queen. I should add that in my early years as a civil servant, I had a wonderful black leather briefcase with “E II R” stamped on it in gold, which I carried with great pride. I am not a new or late supporter of the Queen.

Throughout my life, the Queen has been someone I have admired. She is probably the most famous woman in the world, and a supreme professional to make every career woman amazed by her composure, her work ethic, her charm, her humour and her judgment. She has also been a loving wife, mother and grandmother at the same time—how much she must miss her rock, HRH the Duke of Edinburgh, after their many years together. That was a tragic loss during Covid, as the noble Baroness, Lady Chapman of Darlington, described so well.

I met Her Majesty for the first time in my Tesco days at a Red Cross reception to meet those of us involved in helping after the 2004 Boxing Day tsunami in Thailand. She spoke with much obvious affection for Princes William and Harry, who had been working with us, packing relief parcels for some of the unfortunate victims.

Finally, I should mention Her Majesty’s passion for racing and for breeding racehorses, so well described by my noble friend Lord de Mauley, the Master of the Horse, that there is nothing to add. I just wanted to say that, sadly, she does not have a horse in the Derby next week, but I will be cheering to the rooftops if—as I am sure and I hope she will—she wins at Royal Ascot.

It is a great honour to speak today. Like others, I offer my thanks for Her Majesty’s duty, fortitude and sacrifice, and my warmest congratulations on her unrivalled, record-breaking Platinum Jubilee.