Wales Bill

Debate between Baroness Morgan of Ely and Lord Howarth of Newport

Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Monday 7th November 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Howarth of Newport]

My Lords, it is simply demeaning for Wales that public order and policing should not be devolved. Why should Wales, which has a mature Assembly and is a nation anxious to take more responsibility for its own affairs, not be allowed the same level of responsibility as Northern Ireland and Scotland? I have not heard a good reason. I do not believe that there is any greater necessity to have a single system embracing England and Wales than there is for other parts of the United Kingdom.

If the Government would be a little bolder and allow devolution of responsibility in such matters as drugs and alcohol, everybody might benefit because Wales would have the opportunity to experiment with policy. In the field of drugs and alcohol, for example, we know very well that the existing orthodoxies, practices and policy are not working particularly well. Often they are working downright badly. We have huge problems with regard to drugs and alcohol. Surely it would be better to allow Wales to pioneer and develop policies of its own. Wales would obviously have to take responsibility and a degree of risk, but it is surely better that it should be able to take responsibility and to experiment than that we should simply carry on in Wales with orthodoxies that have failed in the United Kingdom as a whole. No harm has been done by Wales having a degree of independence in education policy—in schooling, for example—so surely that is the right principle.

There will, of course, be questions of resources if more responsibilities, particularly the major responsibility for public order and policing, are to be devolved. In consideration of that we have again to go back to the question of the devolution of income tax-varying powers. We debated that issue earlier this afternoon. I shall very gently make a point to the noble Lord, Lord Crickhowell, who disputed whether a manifesto commitment was being broken by the Government. If he looks at the Second Reading debate in the House of Commons on 14 June, at col. 1653 he will see his Conservative colleagues Mr David Jones, the former Secretary of State, and Mr Chris Davies, the Member of Parliament for Brecon and Radnorshire, bemoaning the fact that the Government have, in fact, broken a manifesto commitment in that regard. I do not want to labour the point, but it ought to be corrected for the record. Certainly we have to consider, in conjunction with the question of what reservations are appropriate and what reservations the Government may decide after all to abandon, the associated question of resources—because it is no good willing the end without enabling the Government of Wales to have the means.

[Baroness Morgan of Ely]

My Lords, I know it is very late, but this a critical group of amendments. This is the first time we have discussed the reservations, and it worth pausing a moment to think about them and the way the Government have approached this issue.

There are a number of reasons why I think the Government’s approach to how they have included certain reservations is lacking. I shall refer to some key quotations. The first comes from a letter from the First Minister to the then Secretary of State for Wales after the Secretary of State announced in November 2014 a programme of work designed to produce a new devolution settlement for Wales. The First Minister expressed his support and said that,

“previously, under administrations of both political colours, the development of a clear and robust settlement has … been hindered by a nit-picking reluctance on the part of particular Whitehall Departments to acknowledge the case for further transfers of responsibilities. It will be important that that reluctance should not re-emerge”.

However, I am afraid we have seen it again.

Wales Bill

Debate between Baroness Morgan of Ely and Lord Howarth of Newport

Monday 7th November 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Howarth of Newport (Lab)]

I have one very naive question, in which I shall simply display my ignorance—but I am puzzled by the explanation given in the Explanatory Notes that Clause 18(1) inserts a new section into the Government of Wales Act which,

“confers common law type powers on Welsh Ministers”.

That is the passage that the noble Lord just quoted. I thought that the judges and the courts created common law; I did not think that the Ministers created it. I would be most grateful if someone, presumably the Minister, could educate me on that point.

[Baroness Morgan of Ely (Lab)]

We have quite a strange group of amendments here but, rather than uncouple them, I would like to suggest a degree of support for the points raised by the noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas, and the question from my noble friend. We believe that our amendments, notably Amendment 29 in the next group, will achieve the same result of a better alignment between the Assembly’s legislative competence and Welsh Ministers’ executive powers. I shall save my comments on the general principle of aligning legislative and executive powers until the next grouping.

I shall address the specific issue of fishing, addressed by one of the government amendments in this group. At present, Welsh Ministers have powers to exercise fisheries functions in relation to Wales and the Welsh zone. The Welsh zone includes a zone of 12 nautical miles next to the Welsh coast and the territorial sea, which, because Ireland is to the west of most of Wales, reaches beyond that point significantly only in the south-west of Wales, on the Pembrokeshire coast. Unfortunately, the extent of Welsh Ministers’ powers do not reflect the arrangements in England and Scotland, with those Administrations having executive powers in relation to their relevant areas. My understanding is that the Welsh Government have pursued a solution to this for several years, so it is encouraging that the amendment has been brought forward.

The amendment goes some way to addressing requirements, but it requires further work to work properly. For example, as currently drafted, the amendment would permit functions under Section 5 of the Sea Fish (Conservation) Act but not Section 5A, which permits functions to be exercised for “marine environmental purposes”. A number of other aspects need to be considered. It would be better if the amendment mirrored the scope of the Welsh Zone (Boundaries and Transfer of Functions) Order 2010, which covers the sort of functions required. It would help to achieve a degree of consistency around who controls fisheries management measures. While we support the Government’s amendment on fisheries as far as it goes, we hope that further work can be done on this matter before Report to ensure that the provisions are fit for purpose.

Wales Bill

Debate between Baroness Morgan of Ely and Lord Howarth of Newport

Tuesday 11th November 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Howarth of Newport]

The Electoral Commission has certain duties that are defined under statute and it offers authoritative advice. However, ultimately, these matters remain to be determined by the elective bodies in question, and that is how it should be.

I want to say a word about Amendment 5, proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas, which seems to ask no more than that the National Assembly of Wales should take responsibility for its own standing orders. How could we possibly deny it that?

[Baroness Morgan of Ely (Lab)]

My Lords, I add my appreciation of the fact that we have seen some significant movement during this debate, and I hope that we can continue in that vein for the rest of the day. I want to talk specifically about the agreement or necessity for the Assembly to agree to electoral arrangements. That is very much where the Labour amendment comes from. We have a proposition in this Bill, and we think it would be incorrect for the Assembly not to have a say.

In Committee, the Minister underlined the fact that the majority of the electoral proposals contained in this Bill had been discussed and agreed by the Welsh Government. That is important; there is an important principle here that should be respected. But the principle of devolution also means that it should be a formal process; the Assembly needs to agree to these measures formally and legally rather than have them handed down, even if it is through an agreement that is not as formal as we would like. It is important for us to move to a more legislative approach, and that is what we seek to do with our amendment.

It is also important to note that the Scottish Parliament has the power to make arrangements about Scottish parliamentary elections. That is a divided power between Scottish Ministers and the Secretary of State. So we are simply asking for a degree of consistency. This is a discussion that will go further when we come to Silk 2 and other arrangements. In the context of what we are talking about here the electoral arrangements being proposed should formally and legally be approved by the Assembly.

The Minister spoke in Committee about the danger of a piecemeal approach to devolution and said specifically in relation to elections that there was a need for a “comprehensive approach” across the UK for powers and conduct of elections. That is precisely what we are asking for here—a similar system to that which already exists in Scotland. We do not quite understand why there is a reluctance on this. Could the Minister specify whether there is a principled objection to this or whether this is a question of timing?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Howarth of Newport (Lab)]

My Lords, we should be grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Norton of Louth, for inviting us to reflect on the principle involved here. When he comes to respond to the debate, perhaps he would give us the benefit of his thoughts on how his principle would apply if, as has been proposed, there should be a senate of the nations and regions of the United Kingdom. Admittedly, I understand that the proposition is that members of the senate should be indirectly elected: they should be sent from the Assemblies and Parliaments of the nations and regions of the United Kingdom. However, I should be grateful for the noble Lord’s guidance as to what principle ought to apply there: whether he considers that a dual mandate in those circumstances should be permitted by law, discouraged or something that the rules of the political parties should embrace—or would he advise a degree of caution in the matter?

[Baroness Morgan of Ely]

Briefly, it is a good idea in principle for there to be a cross-fertilisation of people from Westminster to the Assembly. That principle was particularly important when the Assembly was set up. However, there is a recognition that there is a time commitment to both the institutions. We now have a situation where the people in the Assembly already do not have the time. We will be talking later about possibly needing more Assembly Members. We do not have the people to do the job at the moment. My point back to the noble Lord is that, although I understand that there should be a principle that the electors can choose who they want, there are other principles that need to be considered. There are the practicalities of how that would work but also the needs of the institutions themselves. Those points should also be taken into account.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Morgan of Ely]

My Lords, I turn now to the issue of fair funding for Wales. The Labour Party is keen for this Bill to pass because, for the first time, the Welsh Government will be allowed to borrow money. That is essential to help kick-start the economy, following years of government cuts, which have impacted in particular on the infrastructure budget—essential for investment and driving the economy of Wales.

We agree that in order to help leverage this funding, Wales should have landfill tax and stamp duty tax devolved to it. As we suggested in Committee, the Labour Party does not object in principle to income tax devolution to Wales but we have a key concern. Before embarking down this route, which must have the support of the people of Wales—demonstrated in a referendum—we need to be sure that Wales will not be left worse off than it is now.

We have real concerns that the funding issue in Wales has still not been comprehensively addressed. We now know that the Barnett formula will remain in place, but there is widespread acknowledgement that it has done no favours to Wales. It does not reflect the needs of a nation that has an older, sicker population and a more rural make-up, thereby adding to the costs of providing essential services. We accept that negotiations on this issue have been taking place between the UK Government and the Welsh Government and that there is recognition that a floor should be put in place to ensure that Wales does not lose out. That process was started through a statement in 2012, which acknowledged the problem, but we are looking for a more definitive agreement.

The four-party, cross-party agreement that came from the Assembly in the past month asked for,

“an updated assessment of the current level and likely future direction of Welsh relative funding”.

The Assembly asked for those talks to be completed by January 2015, and this seems to be realistic in terms of a timetable, as the Secretary of State for Wales suggested. He wants a devolution settlement by St David’s Day, 1 March. We are therefore happy that we know that something will happen, at least by 1 March, in terms of reserved powers. We are looking ideally for another little present for us for St David’s Day.

The Minister suggested in a recent answer to a question on the Barnett formula in your Lordships’ House that, in terms of funding, Wales now receives 114% of the UK average. This is welcome information but it would be useful for us to have sight of this evidence. Would the noble Baroness or the noble Lord be willing to share the data that demonstrates that 114% has been reached? It is worth noting that the figure quoted by the Minister was at the very bottom of the range that Gerry Holtham, in his report, indicated was an acceptable and fair level of funding, which ran from 114% to 117%.

There were a few factors that determined the lower levels of funding that arose as a result of the funding formula. The 114% could be considered fair only if we did not undertake to include Welsh-language education provision in Wales, for example. They do not do that in England, so it is not included in the Welsh figures. Also, Wales has already made an upwards adjustment on council tax receipts. If England applied the same formula, Wales would be eligible for more money in the block grant. Those two examples alone mean that fair funding should probably be more like 116%, rather than 114%.

We also know that Wales will lose out once public expenditure starts to rise again, which is why we need this sorted once and for all with a long-term commitment. If we can secure a commitment to the floor being in place—even if that does not happen in practice until Wales holds a referendum on income tax powers, alongside the outcome of the continuing discussions on the off-set required in Barnett—I believe we will then be well on our way to securing a decent and fair funding outcome. However, we are not there yet, which is why, central to the introduction of income tax powers for Wales, we need to be assured that the Welsh Government are happy with the outcomes of those negotiations. That is why we have tabled the amendment.

[Lord Howarth of Newport]

My Lords, I support the amendment that my noble friend has just moved. It is as important as any other that we have debated today. I cannot see a satisfactory future for devolution in Wales until the Barnett nettle has been grasped. It is scandalous that no Government have dealt with this problem since the mid-1970s when the formula was introduced. Cumulatively, since devolution was introduced, Wales has lost out on some £5 billion of funding that it ought to have had, had there been a fair funding formula based on needs rather than on population.

It is true that the gap between what Wales ought to receive and what it does receive has narrowed somewhat in recent years, but we have to anticipate that, as economic growth continues to recover, so the gap in funding and the unfairness of funding will be exacerbated again. It is therefore imperative that there is no further procrastination on this and that the Government agree, with real urgency, to act to secure a just settlement for Wales. The Government were quick to respond to political pressures in Scotland. Political pressures in Wales have been expressed in gentler terms so far, but there will be a continuing sense of injustice that will undermine all the other efforts that we make to establish harmonious and satisfactory political arrangements on devolution for Wales. There are, of course, wider issues affecting the relationships between the nations and regions of the United Kingdom as a whole. I look forward to the Minister giving us a very positive response to the amendment.

[Baroness Randerson]

My Lords, I always enjoy the conversion of the Labour Party to the idea that the Barnett formula is unfair. The noble Lord, Lord Howarth, made a very important point, which is that it is scandalous that this formula has lasted for so long without anyone inquiring into it. I can assure noble Lords that the Government are aware of the issues and have taken measures to ensure that they are addressed.

This amendment would make the devolution of an element of income tax conditional on changes in funding arrangements. Specifically, the First Minister has raised this issue on numerous occasions, saying that he would not be prepared to recommend devolution of income tax unless fair funding were obtained. The amendment suggests that the Welsh Government have to confirm that they are content with the way in which funds are allocated to Wales from the UK Government before the element of income tax can be devolved.

This Government have already recognised that there has been convergence between the levels of funding in England and Wales since devolution. We took steps in the matter just two years after taking office. In October 2012, we set up a joint process with the Welsh Government to review the levels of funding in Wales and England in advance of each spending review. If convergence is forecast to occur over the spending review period, there will be a joint discussion of options to address the issue in a fair and affordable manner. That system worked well in advance of the 2013 spending round and confirmed that spending is not forecast to converge during the period up to 2015-16. It also established that relative funding levels in Wales were within the range that the Welsh Government’s own Holtham commission regarded as fair. In that context, the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, quoted the 114% figure that my noble friend Lord Newby referred to last week. I am happy to write to her, and to set out further detail on that figure.

In relation to ongoing discussions about the funding situation, following the first meeting of the Joint Exchequer Committee between the UK and the Welsh Governments last month, we have now further committed to revisit jointly the review process in the light of the powers in the Bill. In other words, we have agreed to find a way of facilitating fair funding. The Government therefore believe that there is a sound basis for an early referendum to be called and I urge the Welsh Government and the Assembly to do so as quickly as possible.

I hope that I have assured noble Lords that the Government are aware of the issues on funding and are addressing them in discussions with the Welsh Government, who are fully conversant with our plans. I urge the noble Baroness to withdraw her amendment.

Wales Bill

Debate between Baroness Morgan of Ely and Lord Howarth of Newport

Wednesday 15th October 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Howarth of Newport]

My Lords, it is enough to make one weep that, in the run-up to the Scottish referendum, political leaders felt themselves driven by expediency to pledge to retain the Barnett formula. As my noble friend Lord Richard explained to the Committee, it is one of the great injustices and malfunctions of government in this country over the past 40 years and a lamentable lack of statesmanship has prevented it being reformed. There was a great opportunity in 2010. The Conservatives had nothing to lose in Scotland. With universal recognition of the need for austerity, there was a political opportunity to deal with it then. That has been made infinitely harder now by the rash and unprincipled pledges that have recently been made.

The report of the committee of my noble friend Lord Richard is unanswerable. We debated it in your Lordships’ House and there was not a scintilla of a persuasive argument to defend the status quo. Indeed, I do not recollect anybody even trying to defend it. The pledges that have been made will come back to bite their authors because I cannot foresee how we can make progress towards new constitutional arrangements in this country following the referendum in Scotland and following the pledges that have been made in respect of devolution so long as there is such a fundamental inequity in public financing. I cannot see how there can be a fair and acceptable new set of arrangements while the Barnett formula is retained.

The noble Lord, Lord Wigley, spoke extremely well and constructively with his practical suggestions as to how we might try to develop a sort of fallback position. My noble friend Lord Richard suggested that if the Scots are to retain their advantage, it may none the less be possible to find ways at least to reduce the inequity for Wales. However, it seems to me that that path also bristles with political difficulties because, if public spending is a zero-sum game, if there is to be more for Wales, then it has to come from somewhere and if the Scots are allowed to retain their present advantages, then it will come from Northern Ireland or, more likely, from England. However, there is, rather belatedly, a growing recognition in the regions of England that the Barnett formula is a lousy deal for the English. I cannot see that there is a path towards remedying at least a part of the injustice from which the people of Wales suffer if it is to be done directly at the expense of the people of England. Hasty pledges have placed us all in immense difficulty but I look forward to hearing from the Minister or the noble Lord, Lord Bourne, who may be able to pluck a solution out of the hat, although I somehow doubt it.

[Baroness Morgan of Ely]

Today, the First Minister called again for a new funding system that meets the public service requirements in Wales. He likened the Barnett formula to,

“fixing a hole in the roof with Blu Tack and cardboard”.

It is no secret that Wales does not do well out of the Barnett formula. However, we know, following the Scottish referendum, that that formula is not in danger of dying any time soon. Indeed, the Prime Minister made his sentiments on the issue quite clear last week, when he reiterated that he had no intention of reopening the debate on providing a fair funding mechanism for Wales. That seems very different from the position of the Secretary of State for Wales, who said yesterday that he is prepared to address the issue. It would be nice to hear which one of those statements is correct.

At present, the block grant provides 113% of the English level of spending on devolved services, while the Holtham report found that Wales’s relative needs were between 114% and 117%. The noble Lord, Lord Newby, has asked me to be more positive, so I will give it a good go. The good news is that an arrangement was put in place in October 2012 that established a process to review the relative funding of Wales to England in advance of every spending review. If it looked like convergence were happening—for example, if the level of funding between England and Wales looked like it was becoming more equal, despite Wales’s needs being greater, due to things such as ageing population and rurality—then the Government would discuss options to address the issue in a fair and affordable manner. That is the good news.

The problem is that there is no guarantee. It is purely up to the good will and subjective decision-making of the respective Ministers in Cardiff Bay and Westminster. The Labour Party has acknowledged that there is a specific funding problem in Wales and that we will address the issue when we are in office.

I am sorry, but I am afraid that I must return to my negatives. One of the problems with the income tax recommendations is that this issue is compounded by the problem of the devolution of income tax in Wales. It is clear from David Cameron’s insistence that Wales should just pick up that offer of income tax powers that he has not understood the link between underfunding in Wales and the method through which the block grant will be reduced in future, should Wales pick up the option of introducing the Welsh income tax. While it is worth re-emphasising that we agree with the principle of income tax devolution, it is also worth underlining the risks that Wales would be undertaking if we were to devolve income tax powers without changing the Barnett formula.

The idea is that, if the Government suggest that in the first year of operation 10 points of personal income tax receipts are yielded to Wales, then the equivalent amount will be deducted from the Welsh block grant. That cut is then adjusted proportionately in subsequent years. The Government have suggested that the indexed deduction method, as recommended by Gerry Holtham, is used as a method to determine what that proportional cut would be. The problem is that if the block grant fails to produce a fair level of funding relative to need at the outset, as every subsequent change will be based on that initial level of funding, any cut in grant in future, however it will be adjusted, will probably make matters worse as convergence happens.

On the one hand, we are saying that we need fiscal accountability in Wales. On the other hand, we need to ensure that before we set out on this path we start from a fair position. It is critical that a fair funding mechanism is established from the outset, otherwise that unfairness will be locked into the system for the long term.

I know that the Minister is intensely aware of this issue. She has her fingers all over it and has been discussing it for years. However, I ask her to reiterate what the Secretary of State said this week: that he is prepared to look at this issue.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Howarth of Newport]

If my noble friend Lord Anderson’s Amendment 57 is passed it will be a very long time before the provisions of this Bill are brought into force. I am against that delay because I want the Welsh Government and the people of Wales represented by them to have the new borrowing powers that are built into the Bill. However, if there is to be a constitutional convention, I am in favour of it taking its time. In the field of constitutional reform, more haste means less speed, as we saw rather painfully in the attempt at reform of your Lordships’ House in this Parliament.

I also think that the constitutional commission, if there is to be one, should be very much at arm’s length from the political parties and the Westminster and Whitehall establishment. It will be important that the public should not suppose that this is any kind of stitch-up or a device for the existing establishment to protect its own interests. The public would want to see that members of the commission were deeply versed in constitutional theory and constitutional law, and that while they may have close affiliations and loyalties to the different nations and regions of this country, they were prepared to take, as far as they could, an objective view of the long-term interests of the United Kingdom.

It would also be essential that they should receive submissions from the public. Those submissions would be numerous and would take a very long time to consider. I am sure that if a committee of wise people formed on these principles were to set to work, they would perform a valuable task in clarifying the issues, educating us all and pointing the way forward. They would probably succeed in coming up with a blueprint for a new federal model of the United Kingdom. However, it is one thing to come up with a blueprint; it is quite another to implement it, and then politics would re-enter. I anticipate that the processes of constitutional change would then be, as has always been the case in this country, incremental, and they would be the better for that.

I cannot support my noble friend’s amendment, but as we reflect on what we might be seeking in a constitutional commission we should disentangle it from our continuing day-to-day requirements of legislation and politics. We should get on with enacting this Bill. We should get on with implementing it and think generously, spaciously and patiently about how to develop a future framework for the government of the United Kingdom.

[Baroness Morgan of Ely]

My Lords, we have to understand what the Scotland referendum was really about. It was a cry from the people of Scotland who feel cut out of the political process. Of course, that has had an impact not just in Scotland because of the commitments that were made in the last days of the referendum, but it is having and will have an impact across the whole of the United Kingdom. It makes sense for us to place the discussion within a broader context.

We are not in favour of stopping this Bill in its tracks. A lot is in the Bill and there is a lot more to come with Silk 2. It is important that the Welsh devolution process does not stop because of a huge transformation in Scotland. However, it is worth saying that we have to think in a broader way about the constitutional arrangements of our country. What happens in Scotland is having an impact in Wales. Those commitments on Barnett are already having an impact in Wales and there is a problem if they continue to do so. We need to get the balance right and we need to have a broader discussion.

For two years the First Minister of Wales has been calling for a constitutional convention to be established where a discussion about the power relationship between Wales and the rest of the United Kingdom would be undertaken. Who would be on such a constitutional convention? Obviously there would have to be representatives from the devolved Administrations and local government representatives from England. But, crucially, we would also want to see representatives of civil society and the general public. The disconnection between politicians and the public absolutely has to be halted. We would need to work to a clear timetable. The last thing we want is a discussion that goes on for years and years without end. We would also need to think clearly about what the convention would do. We would have to define the core elements of a new constitution that would enshrine a programme of fundamental reform for the UK. The new settlement, while recognising the different circumstances of the four nations, must be based on common principles that reflect the multinational and multi-union character of our United Kingdom.

The referendum in Scotland was a wake-up call for all members of the political class. We must acknowledge the depth of disillusionment in this country and the distance that people feel from the political process. Through establishing a convention, we would have a one-off opportunity fundamentally to reform the system of governance of this country. A constitutional convention is needed and it is well overdue. We recognise, however, that the Wales Bill is not the ideal mechanism for introducing the idea of a constitutional convention, but it seems rather odd for us to be ploughing on with constitutional changes as if nothing has happened. As Carwyn Jones, the First Minister of Wales, has said, the current constitutional settlement is dead. We recognise the need and the demand for more devolution in Wales, but we need to set the whole within the broader UK framework. To proceed in isolation from the wider discussion would be to miss the opportunity to elaborate on a new vision and a constitution for this country, a constitution that would involve, include and invigorate the population so that people would feel as if they had ownership of their own country.