Health and Social Care Bill

Debate between Baroness Morgan of Cotes and Grahame Morris

Tuesday 13th March 2012 Commons Chamber

[Nicky Morgan]

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. After many, many weeks on the Health and Social Care Bill Committee, there is no danger of the hon. Gentleman agreeing with any of the points that I make, but that will not stop me making them.

My hon. Friend the Member for South West Bedfordshire (Andrew Selous) talked about mental health. Those who spent time on the Public Bill Committee will know that I am particularly involved and interested in mental health, and I hope that we will have a debate on mental health in the Chamber soon, but what has struck me in discussions of the Bill is that mental health service users want to be involved in decisions about the commissioning of their services. They have that opportunity in the Bill through the health and wellbeing board, HealthWatch, the clinical commissioning groups, the involvement of the voluntary sector, and, as hon. Members have said, the integration of health and social care services. The Secretary of State talked about shared decision making. It is incredibly important that that is allowed to flourish under the Bill.

My next point—a damning and depressing one for a Member of Parliament to make—is the misinformation that has been perpetuated about the Bill. Tonight, we heard the shadow Secretary of State say that time is running out for the NHS. An hon. Member said that the shadow Secretary of State spoke in December of our having 72 hours to save the NHS, and another said that their constituents are worried about the services that will be on offer. All that is scaremongering, and it is unfair on those who do not have the time, capacity or inclination to read the Bill. We need to talk about the reality.

[Grahame M. Morris]

On the charges of scaremongering, is the hon. Lady aware that the George Eliot hospital in Nuneaton is engaged in conversations with two private sector providers—Serco and Circle—on taking over that provision? In my 30-odd years involved in the NHS, I have never known that to happen.

[Nicky Morgan]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his point and the measured way in which he made it. That is welcome in the debate on the Bill. As a midlands MPs, I am aware of what is happening in Nuneaton, but it is not my constituency so I will refrain from saying too much. I will say only that the hospital management have asked in other providers because they are concerned and want to ensure the best possible care. Is that not what we want?

[Grahame M. Morris]

They are private providers.

[Nicky Morgan]

That could be the voluntary sector or the community sector. They are all private. If someone has a physio appointment, it could be with a private provider. At the end of the day, we want the best care for patients and constituents. That is what we all want.

Health and Social Care (Re-committed) Bill

Debate between Baroness Morgan of Cotes and Grahame Morris

Tuesday 6th September 2011 Commons Chamber

[Grahame M. Morris]

I am privileged to have the opportunity to speak in this debate on an issue close to my heart. A number of Opposition Members—and perhaps Members across the whole of the House—have taken advantage of the opportunity to spend a day with the NHS to see at first hand some of the issues and problems and to discuss with staff and patients their concerns. Many Members have received e-mails and letters from constituents and from various interest groups, and the issues we are considering this evening are very important.

As my right hon. Friend the Member for Holborn and St Pancras (Frank Dobson) said during his contribution, the NHS holds a very special place in people’s affections. In many respects it is viewed not unlike a religion, in so far as it is loved and cherished. Members who have had the opportunity to travel to other countries and see different health systems will no doubt be well aware of the high esteem in which our own health service is held throughout the world. It is a real exemplar—a model of a publicly funded, publicly provided health service. As an aside, I point out as a member of the Select Committee on Health that we have a very frugal Chairman, and the furthest we have travelled is to Hackney. My knowledge is therefore based on reading and on evidence submitted to the Committee.

Let us consider the problem we face with the Bill and the amendments and new clauses. I listened carefully to the Secretary of State’s statement, and the real concern among patients, the public and the Opposition is, what are the motivations behind these reforms? I worked in the health service for a dozen years or more and have taken the trouble to look into the various options in some detail. Ministers have said that there are precedents for Bills of this complexity, but I would be staggered to find that there are. It is incredibly complicated and has been subject to numerous amendments. As members of the Bill Committee who are in the Chamber this evening know, many of the arguments originally made by Government Front Benchers were turned on their heads in Committee, and some of those that were rubbished by the Opposition were taken up and rehashed as part of the Future Forum.

[Nicky Morgan (Loughborough) (Con)]

I am listening very carefully to the hon. Gentleman, as I did in Committee. Indeed, those of us who served on both Committees—the original and the re-committal—deserve a badge of honour. He talks about the Bill being complex. Does he not think that the process has been made more complex by the use of misinformation and emotive language, and by campaigners obscuring the Bill and needlessly causing patients to worry about their ability to access the health service once the Bill has been passed? The point is that free access at the point of need is not changing, and that is what most patients care most about. Does he not agree?

[Grahame M. Morris]

I am afraid I do not agree with the hon. Lady, as she might expect. The Secretary of State said that it was a question of communication, but I suspect that part of the problem with the Bill is that, far from there being additional clarity, the more that Members of Parliament, the medical profession, health care workers, members of the public and informed commentators have examined the proposals in detail, the greater the number of concerns that have arisen.

If the Secretary of State had been open and honest about the direction of travel and the motivation for these health reforms, perhaps we could have avoided some of the confusions that have arisen. There is no electoral mandate for a huge structural review and reorganisation. I suspect that there is something seriously wrong with the whole privatising agenda and philosophy, which the Secretary of State denies.

--- Later in debate ---

[Grahame M. Morris]

Absolutely. At this late stage in the process, however, these are huge and significant changes.

[Nicky Morgan]

Just to help the hon. Gentleman, a number of the amendments relate to the continuity of services, which his party and those on his Front Bench asked to have considered by this House on Report rather than being left to the Lords. I am sure that the Ministers can help, but if that subject was not included, I suspect that the number of amendments would be significantly smaller. It is right that they should be considered in this House at this time—does he not agree?

[Grahame M. Morris]

That is a fair and reasonable point and I concede that.