Water Fluoridation (Consultation) (England) Regulations 2022

Debate between Baroness Merron and Baroness Brinton

Tuesday 25th October 2022 Grand Committee

[Baroness Brinton (LD)]

My Lords, I welcome the Minister to consequential SIs from the passage of the Health and Care Act. Some of those present will remember the long debates we had during the passage of that legislation, some of which the noble Lord, Lord Reay, has returned us to today.

I will start on water fluoridation. My points were actually about consultation, and I will return to those, but the noble Lord has a point: there are now scientific records to show that excess levels of fluoride do cause damage. There is a very good academic article entitled “Assessment of fluoride levels during pregnancy and its association with early adverse pregnancy outcomes”. It concludes that this happens mainly in developing countries where the level of fluoride is not managed. I echo the point that the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, just made, that if the four Chief Medical Officers for the four countries of the United Kingdom believe that it is safe, that should be enough for us.

Of course all care must be taken and monitoring must continue, but the other point I want to make is from a dentist in Australia, who was very supportive of Australia’s move to fluoridation a while ago. He said that the region where he lives was one of the last to add fluoride. He talks about the experience of having to give very small children repeated anaesthetics and pain relief, and the effect on them. He says:

“Since fluoridation was introduced to Geelong in 2009, my colleagues are much happier, as severe dental abscesses requiring tricky anaesthetic techniques are much less common, and tend to mainly come from areas in the region which still aren’t fluoridated.”


He goes on to say:

“The other anecdote … was that one of my colleagues who had worked in Europe for a few years went away with 3 children under the age of 6, who were the same age and social demographic as our own children. When they returned … 2 of his 3 children had needed dental treatment”


under general anaesthetic. The key point is that they went to unfluoridated places. Although I hear the concerns of the noble Lord, Lord Reay, I hope we can be reassured that everything we debated during the passage of the Health and Care Bill shows that this is being done very carefully.

During the passage of that Bill, my noble friend Lady Pinnock made a very important series of points about how to decide where to consult about fluoridation of water, given that we have so many reservoirs where water goes in lots of different directions. Often, you cannot identify each of those areas. Although it was good to hear the Minister talk about the way that consultation will happen, and it is good news that there has been broad consultation in the north-east and that there are some resources there, might the Minister comment on how it is possible for civil servants to identify the relevant areas for consultation? This was one of the reasons why we said during the passage of the Bill that there needed to be very broad consultation.

Moving on to the other statutory instrument on training on learning disabilities and autism, and on virginity testing and hymenoplasty, I signed both of those amendments during the Bill’s passage. Each time it came back I spoke to both of them. It was wonderful that the Government listened and accepted the amendments on training for health staff working with people with learning disabilities and autism. I know that this is only a technical amendment to remove the CQC, but this is a moment to thank the Government for listening to the concern of those of us who work with and know many in the learning disabled and the autistic communities, who have often found that they have been treated by people who do not understand their conditions, which makes it that much harder to communicate with them.

I will now move on to virginity testing and hymenoplasty—I welcome the Minister to the language that we have all had to learn. We were very pleased that the Government decided to support measures on this. I have one question for the Minister. He mentioned that this was about the suitability of foster parents or of their household. It is not clear how wide that household is regarded; is it literally the people who live in that house, or, as in other safeguarding issues, would it also include a member of the foster parents’ family who might be visiting that house on a regular basis and who, in any other safeguarding terms, would have to be notified? If the Minister cannot answer that today, I would completely understand, but I look forward to the answer because I have a particular interest in safeguarding. Apart from that, I support all three elements in front of us today.

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

My Lords, I start by thanking the Minister for bringing these regulations forward today. They very much flow from the measures supported in the Health and Care Act, and we are very glad to support them.

I will first refer to the instrument dealing with fluoridation. My noble friend Lord Hunt and the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, rightly made the point that this is not the time to reopen the whole matter as to whether fluoridation is a good thing. I feel that that has been exhausted in the debate. I am familiar with the concerns that the noble Lord, Lord Reay, has previously put before the House and which he referred to today. However, every independent review of fluoridation has confirmed its safety. As the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, and my noble friend Lord Hunt said, the UK Chief Medical Officers back this measure, and I do not believe that they do so lightly. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Reay, may come round to the way of thinking that explains why this measure is important in the Act and why we need the regulation today.

I have a few questions for the Minister. Regarding consultation, the necessity of taking responsibilities away from local authorities and to the Secretary of State reflects reality, because there are real difficulties when boundaries are different, yet fluoridation needs to be brought in. Also, it is important to take communities with us in this process, and the consultation measures in this regulation provide that opportunity.

Can the Minister comment on plans to extend fluoridation nationwide? What is the plan—the vision— bearing in mind that only 10% of people have fluoride in their water at present? What timeline might we be talking about? Do the Government have a target for the percentage of the UK that will benefit from fluoridation at the end of the process? I also wonder how the Government will spread awareness of the evidence of the benefits of fluoridation and gain buy-in for them, as that is extremely important.

In the course of evidence sessions in relation to the Health and Care Act we heard from experts that many families do not habitually drink water, and that many people who suffer tooth decay are now too far down the line to stave off tooth loss. It would be helpful to hear whether the department has any plans for a wraparound strategy on dental health generally.

I note from the Explanatory Memorandum that a separate impact assessment, beyond that of the Health and Care Act, has not been done for this regulation. Can the Minister comment on that? It is important to have an analysis of how the movement of powers in respect of consultation beyond local authority boundaries will play out.

East Kent Maternity Services: Independent Investigation

Debate between Baroness Merron and Baroness Brinton

Monday 24th October 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

My Lords, I start by thanking Dr Bill Kirkup and his team for bringing together a report of harrowing events. This litany of failures makes for very difficult reading, and it marks another landmark for a further group of families fighting for justice who should not have had to do so. Forty-five babies could have survived had they received care at the nationally recognised standards. I am sure that the thoughts of the whole House are with the bereaved families at this extremely painful time.

This is, regrettably, yet another example of women’s voices being ignored and silenced, to the extent that some were told that they were to blame for the deaths of their babies. At a time when women are at their most vulnerable, they were let down by the very people who they were relying on to keep them safe. However, this is not a one-off: East Kent is the latest in a long line of maternity scandals, including at Shrewsbury and Telford Hospital NHS Trust and Morecambe Bay, while the upcoming review of services in Nottingham is expected to be highly critical. Dr Kirkup said that avoidable deaths happened because recommendations that had been made following reports into other scandals had not been implemented. I would be grateful if the Minister could respond to this.

We know that no woman should ever have to face going into hospital to give birth, not knowing whether she and her baby will come out alive. Those who allowed this culture of neglect and what was referred to in the report as a disturbing

“lack of kindness and compassion”

to take root must be held accountable. Can the Minister tell your Lordships’ House how this may happen?

It is shocking that there is a pattern of avoidable harm in maternity units across the country. Half the maternity units in England are failing to meet safety standards. Pregnant women were turned away from maternity wards more than 400 times last year. One in four women are unable to get the help that they need when in labour. The Government need to fully accept all the recommendations in Dr Kirkup’s review without delay. I hope the Minister will today confirm that this is the case.

In the wake of the Ockenden review, the former Health Secretary announced additional funding for maternity services to help deliver the reform that is clearly needed. Can the Minister tell your Lordships’ House how that funding has been spent and how its impact will be measured? Indeed, it would be very helpful if the Minister could bring a further report to this House on progress in the improvement of maternity services.

Underpinning the issues in maternity care and across the NHS is, of course, the workforce. But more midwives are leaving the profession than are joining it and there is now a shortage of some 2,000 midwives in England alone. Can the Minister indicate where we can find the workforce plan to get the staff needed to provide good and safe care in the short, medium and long term? It is evident that the Government must provide the staff that maternity services desperately need to provide safe care across the health service.

I am sure we were all concerned to read the Care Quality Commission’s report published just two days after Dr Kirkup’s report. It also makes sobering reading. It says that maternity services in England have deteriorated to their lowest level, services are worsening and, time and again, there are issues with the leadership and culture in maternity units.

The CQC’s chief executive said that the failings were systemic in the NHS, with two in five maternity services now ranked as requiring improvement or inadequate. This is a wholly unacceptable situation. Does the Minister share the view of the regulator that the issues in maternity services are a “national challenge”?

This CQC report shows that there has been a deterioration in maternity services overall and in relation to their safety, describing progress on improvement as “slow”. The proportion of maternity services ranked as inadequate or requiring improvement is, we see, the worst it has ever been. What actions will the Government take? Will the Minister be meeting the CQC urgently to discuss its findings? How will a major change in maternity services be brought about?

All that women and their loved ones ask for is to have confidence that they and their babies will be safe. This really is not much to ask. I hope the Government will provide the means to deliver this.

[Baroness Brinton (LD)]

My Lords, I want to start from these Benches by sending my deepest sympathies to the bereaved families and to say that we admire the parents for their campaigns over many years against the dreadful treatment by the east Kent hospitals trust for more than a decade. I echo the thanks and gratitude from the noble Baroness, Lady Merron, to Dr Kirkup and his team. Once again, he has risen to the challenge of providing a very clear picture of what has gone wrong at a hospital trust.

The trust failed to read the signals over an 11-year period. The Kirkup report puts this very bluntly and is exceptional in the way it uses evidence. Yes, there is the evidence of the voices of mothers and their families and the evidence from staff, but equally important is the use of data, especially the CESDI data from the Confidential Enquiry into Stillbirths and Deaths in Infancy. In the section headed “What happened to women and babies”, paragraph 1.16 says that

“we have not found that a single clinical shortcoming explains the outcomes. Nor should the pattern of repeated poor outcomes be attributed to individual clinical error, although clearly a failure to learn in the aftermath of obvious safety incidents has contributed to this repetition.”

This short paragraph encapsulates how failings have become cultural in the trust. Paragraph 1.19 says that

“we have found that the origins of the harm we have identified and set out in this Report lie in failures of teamworking, professionalism, compassion and listening.”

It is really worrying to have the report from the CQC of a few days ago, which echoed these exact points but more broadly across maternity services in England.

As has been mentioned, there is a wider problem. We know that. The reports on Morecambe Bay, Shrewsbury, Telford and now Nottingham, where Ms Ockenden is now working, show that systemic and cultural failures, especially with the complexity of regulators, are creating real problems. There is the idea that clinical staff will allow favouritism and the opposite of growing and supporting staff, while letting things fester and not caring to drag patients into their concerns.

Can the Minister outline the timescale for the independent working group report referred to in the Statement? The creation of the group is welcome; its main remit is to advise the maternity transformation programme in England—but by when? Is the work of the group revealing that other maternity services have problems, even if we do not know how severe they are or if they are as severe as East Kent?

In the section on the actions of the regulators on page 9, at paragraph 1.50, Dr Kirkup identified that

“the Trust was faced with a bewildering array of regulatory and supervisory bodies, but the system as a whole failed to identify the shortcomings”.

It is good that it is reported that NHS England and Innovation sought to bring about improvements, but every other trust is also facing that same complexity of different regulators. Are the Government looking at the roles of regulators and how their competing demands can be streamlined to avoid this problem?

The Commons Minister said that she would review all the recommendations and provide a full response once she has had time to consider it. I think we all appreciate that the NHS has a very large workload at the moment, but can the Minister say roughly what timescale we are looking at?

One key problem in many maternity services is with the workforce, especially midwives. Although NHS England made an exceptional grant in March of £127 million as a boost for

“safer and more personalised care”,

can the Minister say—I echo the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Merron, which he will not be surprised to hear—where the workforce plan is for the next decade for maternity services? A year’s extra money is not going to help with training the midwives of the future and ensuring that maternity units are professionally and adequately staffed.

Dr Kirkup also criticised NHS England for firing chairs and chief execs too frequently, indulging in a blame game that reinforced the culture happening inside East Kent. It is no longer good enough to say, once again, that this must never happen again. This is the third devastating report in under seven years, and another is now being prepared in Nottingham. What will the Government do in the next three months to ensure that further appalling practice will be uncovered and dealt with immediately?

Health and Social Care Update

Debate between Baroness Merron and Baroness Brinton

Monday 10th October 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

My Lords, it may have been some weeks since this Statement was made in the other place, but its subject matter is as relevant today as it was when it first saw the light of day. The big questions remain: among them, where are the costings and how will it be funded?

The NHS is facing the worst crisis it has ever seen, with patients waiting longer than ever in A&E, stroke and heart attack victims waiting an hour for an ambulance and some 378,000 patients waiting more than a year for an operation. Those figures date back to the summer—before we even get to the winter and the challenges winter always brings.

At the time of the Statement, the NHS Confederation’s verdict was that

“these measures will not come close to ensuring patients who need to be seen can be within the timescales set out … they will have minimal impact on fixing the current problems that general practice is facing over the winter”.

But has not the situation got even worse since this Statement was first heard? The scale of the challenge faced by our health and social care services, the people who work in them and the public who rely on them has worsened as the state of the economy worsens. The country is now experiencing spiralling inflation which far exceeds the assumptions on which budgets were set, while those who work in the health and care services are struggling with the cost of living. What will be the response to this? How and where will the so-called efficiency savings demanded by the Treasury be found?

What we do know is that the impact will not be equal. As the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of London addressed at the weekend, it has been reported that the Government’s long-promised White Paper on health disparities has been dropped. Can the Minister confirm this? If that is not the case, can he advise on when can we expect this crucial plan to narrow the widening inequalities in health outcomes between the poorest and the wealthiest, between white and black, Asian and minority-ethnic people and between those in the north and south?

The Statement says that patients will be able to get a GP appointment within two weeks, but let us remind ourselves that, prior to 2010, the guarantee of an appointment was within two days, not merely an expectation of two weeks. Can the Minister provide more detail as to how the two-week expectation will be met? I ask this in the context of the record numbers of GPs indicating that they will be retiring or leaving the profession, where burnout and low morale are at an all-time high. How will the numbers stack up when 4,700 GPs have been cut over the past decade, and the long-promised 6,000 GPs are not on course to be delivered? With 330 practices having closed in just the last three years, where will these appointments take place? Are there plans to open new practices?

The gaping hole at the heart of the Statement is, as we know, the lack of a workforce strategy. In the ABCD plan presented by the Health Secretary, the only reference is under D, which refers to doctors and dentists. They are important—there is no doubt about that—but what about the nurses, paramedics, technicians, care workers, cleaners and caterers? Without a plan to tackle the whole staffing crisis, there is not a plan for the NHS.

What are the Government going to do about the staff shortages of 132,000 in the NHS today? This cannot be overlooked. Earlier today, the Minister told your Lordships’ House that there were 200,000 more staff in the NHS than 12 years ago. Perhaps he could elaborate further. Are these full-time equivalents? Where are they and what roles do they perform? Crucially, does the Minister accept that there still needs to be a fully costed plan to deliver the workforce that we so desperately need?

The Statement refers to some £500 million to speed up delayed discharges. Can the Minister help with some more detail on this? Is it a new investment or a re-announcement? How will it be funded? It is indeed right to say that if patients cannot get out through the back door of the hospital because care is not there in the community, we get more patients at the front door and more ambulances queuing at the front. That is exactly the situation we see today. The crucial point is that unless the Government act on care workers’ pay and conditions, employers will not be able to recruit and retain the staff they need. What is the plan to address this?

Finally, can the Minister reassure the House and patients across the country that the response to the crisis in the NHS will not be to lower standards for patients but to raise performance instead? I am sorry to say that this Statement misses the target. I hope the Minister will reflect on the points that I have raised, and other noble Lords will undoubtedly raise, and take the opportunity to use his new and important position to make proper change and improvement.

[Baroness Brinton (LD)]

My Lords, I echo the comments of the noble Baroness, Lady Merron, about the nature of the plan. It is full of warm words and aspiration, light on detail, especially on funding, and seems to disregard the reality on the ground at the moment. I also echo her concern about the rumours of the White Paper on inequalities being shelved. That is really important. Many of us spent a lot of time in your Lordships’ House during Covid hearing about the problems of people with Covid, particularly those from ethnic minorities and deprived backgrounds. There is a lot of data to say that those people have really struggled.

The workforce plan is something else that from these Benches we asked for consistently long before work started on the Health and Care Act, but absolutely consistently since then. Turning to the plan itself, on ambulances, the announcement in July was welcome but three months on—and this was an emergency announcement—it feels as if nothing has changed. The number of delayed discharges remains stubbornly high, and we know that there is a new wave of Covid rising: the ZOE study figures today suggest around 230,000 new daily cases and 2.2 million active cases. That is going to continue to rise: all the medical experts in this area say we are now definitely at the beginning of this wave.

B stands for backlogs, and I am afraid that that is not really improving either. Although it is good to see that the two-year waiting list is reducing, the under-two year list continues to grow: 6.8 million at the end of last month. The plan talks about patients being redirected from hospitals, but our primary care system—GPs, community nurses, physios, speech and language therapists in the community, and especially social care—is already at breaking point. It is good to be offering Covid boosters, but why are under-12s excluded unless they are immunocompromised? Children at schools without proper ventilation were drivers of the last two waves of Covid, and it just seems ridiculous that they have not been included, because that would be an easy win.

In my question earlier today, I asked the Minister about care and particularly about virtual hospitals. It is good that the plan is picking up on some excellence in the NHS, and I am very proud of my local hospital for doing it, but the Minister did not actually answer my question, which was: given that this work of virtual hospitals creates more work for GPs, community nurses, physiotherapists in the community that in the past would have been done in hospitals, will there be extra resources for primary care? Without it, primary care is already at breaking point; they cannot just magic extra time and energy to do it.

The section about GPs is admirable in spirit, but doctors have repeatedly said that their main problem is a lack of doctors. We also know from the BMA survey back in the spring that GPs’ workload has increased by 30% on clinical administration alone. It is not Covid; it is mainly to do with digitisation and complex systems. It is all very well talking about getting administrators in to do it, but these are administrative tasks that doctors have to do themselves. Unfortunately, it is causing a problem, and I do not see any solution in the plan.

Whenever Ministers talk about doctors, they talk about the highest number ever—indeed, the Minister did so earlier—but there are two problems with that. There are more patients than ever, and that is never reflected in any comments by Ministers. Government funding for doctor training has not been sustained. This year, far too many—hundreds, just under 1,000—newly qualified doctors, fresh out of university, could not get training places because there was no funding for hospitals to be able to do it. The exodus of NHS staff was reported in the Times just last Saturday. The net change is not positive now; it is negative.

On dentists, it is very good news about the simplification of government rules regarding overseas dentists qualifying to work, and we look forward to seeing the regulation shortly, but the main problem is the drastic need to overhaul the government contract. While the Statement says first steps are being taken, I ask the Minister when the major work funding for it will be concluded. Will he also tell your Lordships’ House what provision there will be for the 3 million people who are either immunosuppressed or immunocompromised—for example, because of blood cancer or because of strong medication which has to suppress their immune systems? The government advice on the web page still says that people in this group should not mix with people who are not fully vaccinated or may possibly be brewing Covid, but a year ago all support to this group was ended. Along with other people in this group, because I am one of them, I am about to have my sixth Covid jab, but I have no idea how long I am going to be protected for—that is why I wear a mask a lot of the time in the Chamber. Half a million of the most severely immunocompromised people cannot make any antibodies in response to the vaccine. They were promised antiviral medication or Evusheld. Five million doses of antivirals were ordered, but only 50,000 were handed out, and the Government have just refused to allow Evusheld to be used. What will the Minister do to ensure that this group of people will be protected?

Finally, the Health Service Journal has said that two out of three integrated care systems have fallen off track on their financial plans because of the impact of inflation, Covid cases not being funded this financial year and higher spending on agency staff. This plan will not work if the new integrated care systems cannot work. It is vital that the Minister tells us what plans there are to make sure that ICSs will be supported properly.

The plan for patients has many warm words for delivery. I know this is something the Minister cares greatly for, and we will support him, but the words on their own will not do it. Our NHS and care sector are on their knees already. The Nuffield Trust report says that data shows that even without the pandemic, the backlog would have been well over 5 million. It says the NHS was already stretched. I look forward to hearing the Minister explain how the NHS and care sector will be able to deliver on this plan in their current state.

Food and Feed Safety (Miscellaneous Amendments and Transitional Provisions) Regulations 2022

Debate between Baroness Merron and Baroness Brinton

Monday 21st March 2022 Grand Committee

[Baroness Brinton (LD) [V]]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his introduction to the Food and Feed Safety (Miscellaneous Amendments and Transitional Provisions) Regulations 2022, which propose three very differing amendments to existing food safety measures. He was right to start by saying that ensuring the highest levels of food safety is absolutely vital.

The Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments has pointed out that the second and third regulations come into force on the day after the day on which these amendments are made, so once again they breach the 21-day rule. It is such a shame that SIs and regulations seem always to be dealt with as emergency items, because this reduces the time available for Parliament to effectively scrutinise legislation.

The first amendment is to Article 53 of the retained general food law, to manage a problem that has arisen as a result of the Northern Ireland protocol. I note that the Explanatory Memorandum calls it a “deficiency”. It might perhaps be more honest to call it a problem of the Northern Ireland protocol and the practical effect it has had on border issues for those living in Northern Ireland—how they have to juggle the tensions of a border in the Irish Sea when third-party goods come into Great Britain via Northern Ireland and where a serious risk to human health has been identified with those goods.

It is right that the UK Government must correct regulations that are not fit for purpose, and we note that these amendments to Article 53 do not change the purpose or function of the original provision but there is now full protection for such emergency measures, regardless of where the goods have come from.

The second amendment relates to the authorisation of provisions for feed additives and for GM food and feed, which will now be through legislation, bringing them into line with other retained EU food and feed law. That is particularly welcome. There is a lot of suspicion about GM food and feed, and it is important that there is a vehicle through which it can be scrutinised carefully. Parliament is the right place for that to take place.

The third and final change is a sensible step to ensure that businesses have a slightly longer period to move from EU to UK labelling requirements, until 30 September this year. For some time, food businesses have been asking for a longer period, as well as for labelling requirements to be as close as possible to the EU requirements. The latter is not covered by this SI, but I hope that the Minister will continue to listen to UK food businesses which want to continue to sell into the EU and which must also abide by the EU labelling requirements. I thank the Government for the extension to the period during which the EU ones can be used.

The SI brings us back to the wider issues of the Northern Ireland protocol. That is obviously not on the agenda for today, but I want to say that, from these Benches, we always warned that there would be problems for goods travelling into Great Britain via Northern Ireland and for businesses there, which continue to express real concerns about the UK’s decisions and legislation between 2018 and 2020. Whether one agrees with them or not, it is good that these three corrections and amendments will at least sort out some of those minor problems.

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for setting out the rationale behind this eminently sensible statutory instrument, which deals with a number of significant technical issues relating to the Food Standards Agency, some of which have come about because of the Northern Ireland protocol. They need to be resolved, and from these Benches we are of course happy to support this statutory instrument.

I add that the Explanatory Memorandum is very helpful in outlining the approach that the FSA is taking. I will just pick up on a few points. First, paragraph 7.7 refers to

“An analysis of the emergency powers for”


food and feed control, which revealed that these powers could not be deployed as effectively as required. I am interested in exploring the context. It would be helpful if the Minister could advise on whether this analysis was through a hypothetical desk-based exercise, or whether the situations referred to actually occurred. For example, did goods identified as presenting a serious threat to human health enter Great Britain through Northern Ireland or did that not happen in reality?

I welcome the clarification that the GM and feed additive authorisations will be dealt with through an SI. It would be helpful if the Minister could confirm whether this will be through the negative or affirmative approach. Also, are there any implications for the Government’s longer-term strategy for GM products, given the recent statutory instrument that changed some of the rules on research and gene-edited crops?

On the issue of labelling, it would also be helpful if the Minister could comment a bit on whether he feels that the date in place is the right one. I say that because the food production sector finds itself under pressure, of course, and we want to ensure that this is a practical step.

Throughout the consultation, the National Farmers’ Union has sought clarification on the UK’s relationship with the European Food Safety Authority. The NFU has stressed the importance of the UK’s close collaboration with the EFSA on equal terms. Can the Minister comment on the Government’s intentions for their relationship with the EFSA in the context of this statutory instrument, given its importance to our food industry? I would be most grateful.

I have a final point to raise. With regard to the consultations, one observation by the sector was about the expectation that these changes to the regulations could be read through in under an hour, such that businesses, regulatory agencies and councils would be able to work out in that short period how to apply the changes to their organisations. I know that this was regarded as somewhat overoptimistic, but has any further thought been given to an assessment of just how easy it will be to work with these regulations? With those comments, I offer our support for these regulations and thank the Minister in advance for the reply that I know he will give.

Health and Care Bill

Debate between Baroness Merron and Baroness Brinton

Lords Hansard - Part 2 & Committee stage
Wednesday 26th January 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Brinton (LD) [V]]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, has set out the tensions underlying the Bill about returning to the Secretary of State powers over independent, arms-length bodies; specifically, in this amendment, the inspections carried out by the Care Quality Commission in its role as a regulatory body. He rightly reminded us of the current arrangements, which give the CQC the ability to set its indicators and which, frankly, work well. I will not repeat his arguments, except to say in a slightly wider context that almost every piece of legislation brought to Parliament by this Government has given Ministers more powers—including, as in Clause 26, the power to intervene and to change remits.

The noble Lord’s amendments maintain the independence that the CQC—and other regulatory bodies—need to be able to inspect and make rulings without fear of favour or influence from politicians, while ensuring that the CQC must consult the Secretary of State when it revises indicators of quality for the purposes of assessment. That seems to me to provide the requirement for the CQC and the Secretary of State to engage in dialogue, but without the political intervention outlined in Clause 26(2) and (5).

Can the Minister explain why the Government feel the need to remove the independence of the CQC—whether this is an issue of management, as the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, said—and how giving the Secretary of State these powers can maintain the independence of a regulatory body?

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

My Lords, it is essential that we get the arrangements for the Care Quality Commission right throughout the Bill, and I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, for trying to do that through these amendments. If the health and social care provided is to be of the highest standards, we must ensure, through the powers of scrutiny and review in your Lordships’ House, that we enable the watchdog to have the proper tools and framework to achieve that, so I support the amendments.

As the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, emphasised, this is about putting the responsibility in the right place to ensure that a key inspectorate can do an independent job and support proper integration and delivery. I hope the Minister will accept the good sense in these amendments.

Coronavirus Act 2020 (Early Expiry) (No. 2) Regulations 2021

Debate between Baroness Merron and Baroness Brinton

Tuesday 30th November 2021 Grand Committee

[Baroness Brinton (LD) [V]]

My Lords, this is beginning to have the feeling of “Star Trek”, which is certainly not my intention. Thank you, Deputy Chairman. I declare my interest as a vice-president of the Local Government Association.

From these Benches, we will not oppose the expiry of these 12 provisions, although we have some comments on them. It was really good to hear the Minister outline the “hands, face, space” guidance, readopted in the past couple of days. Will there be a public communications campaign to reinforce it because, sadly, I suspect that not many people will have heard it in Grand Committee today in Parliament, let alone in the outside world?

Yesterday, in the Statement repeat, we debated masks and self-isolation; we will do so again tomorrow when we look at the SIs. On vaccination, it was good to hear the Prime Minister and the Secretary of State refer to the clinically extremely vulnerable in this afternoon’s press conference. I promise the Minister that I will not repeat all the questions I asked him yesterday, but not one of them has yet been answered. Delivering either the fourth, or a booster, jab for 3.7 million clinically extremely vulnerable people will not work effectively without clearer information systems on exactly who the CEV are and which jab they should get; there is still a lot of uncertainty there. I thank the Minister for his offer of a meeting during yesterday’s Statement. With today’s announcement, vaccination is becoming urgent; I look forward to hearing from him shortly about when it can happen.

From these Benches, we want to make a brief comment on the assessments for local authority care and support. I note that the Explanatory Memorandum says that only

“eight local authorities used these powers between April 2020 and June 2020. No local authorities in England have used them after 29 June 2020.”

That is good to hear, but it is evident that assessments are still happening very slowly. It is one of the problems that hospital trusts across the country are facing, with people in beds awaiting an assessment. Some of that is much more about workforce availability, both in the NHS and in the local authority system, than about the arrangements to reduce these assessments.

Reference has already been made to local authorities having virtual meetings. Members from these Benches and others objected when the Secretary of State decided that all local authority meetings had to cease being virtual in January this year. It has meant that a number of councillors have been unable to attend their council meetings through no fault of their own. If the Lords can have a handful of people contributing virtually, and with cases going up and certain areas having problems, is it possible to return to virtual meetings and leave the matter as a choice for the local authority concerned?

I note that the Explanatory Memorandum says:

“This instrument does not relate to withdrawal from the European Union/trigger the statement requirements under the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018.”


However, it is only fair to point out that Section 25 gives early expiration to the power to require information relating to food supply chains to avoid serious disruption. In principle, we do not have a problem with that as a provision during the pandemic, but I say to the Minister: that statement may be true in treaty and UK legislation terms but, as we face this Christmas, there are increasing concerns about disruption to food supply chains, for three reasons.

One is a direct consequence of Brexit. European providers of food and many other products have significantly reduced or stopped exporting to the UK because of the complex, slow and, for both exporter and importer, expensive costs now that we are outside the European Union. Since Brexit, the reduction in the number of EU abattoir workers—as they leave the UK—has meant, this week and for the past month, thousands of pigs and other livestock being culled but not brought into the food chain. Worse, the increase in avian flu cases and the restrictions placed on all poultry farms mean that there are concerns about the supply of birds for the Christmas dinner table. Thirdly, there is a delay in foods and other goods coming in from around the world as a result of the pandemic. This is what one might describe as a perfect storm. Is the Minister confident that, given all these factors as well as trying to manage omicron in its early stages, it is appropriate to expire this particular provision?

We accept the expiry of emergency volunteering leave and compensation for emergency volunteers, although I do want to comment on the problems with the Bring Back Staff scheme, especially for doctors and some nurses. It was absolutely fine in principle, until it hit human resources in trusts. I know of two doctors who had recently retired and were kept hanging around for five months. One was a doctor teaching trainee doctors; however, she was unable to be used because the system just made it impossible for her. If there is any cause to reintroduce this particular provision, will the Minister ensure that we do not gold-plate the complex HR arrangements, making it impossible for staff, former staff or those who might come back on a temporary basis to do so?

We do not believe that the extension of time limits for retention of fingerprints and DNA should remain. We objected to that a year ago, when it was brought in.

Finally, I wrote to the Minister earlier today with real concerns about the problems that some returning international travellers are facing, following the new regulations that came into force at 4 am today, arising from concern over omicron. This is a logistical problem with the change from lateral flow to PCR tests and the passenger locator form. As of this morning, it was still possible to put only the details of your lateral flow test on to the passenger locator form, not the arrangements for the PCR test. One cruise company has 700 people coming into a UK port tomorrow and, despite talking to officials, it cannot get a sense of how the passengers will be able to get off if their details are not on the passenger locator form. I hope another method has been found, otherwise this may be a bit of a problem.

It is right that the Government made the provisions we face today, even if we do not agree with all of them. But I say to the Minister that, as with other statutory instruments, holding on to some of these provisions for a little longer, even if unused, might be useful in case the pandemic takes us down a course that not one of us wants, as the Government and other public services might need to call on them at short notice.

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his most helpful introduction to these regulations, which we will not be opposing. As he acknowledged, when the original Act came into force, we were in extraordinary times and they required unprecedented legislation. However, as time moves on and experience and circumstances change, it is right that we seek to remove powers that are no longer needed. The move to do so today is welcome because, in those circumstances, such provisions should not remain in statute.

Examples of those include Section 56 and Schedule 26 powers relating to magistrates’ courts; Part 1 of Schedule 16, which provides for the temporary closure of education and childcare settings, and was not used; and Section 78 powers around local authority meetings, which need to go because the provisions are simply out of date. On this, I add my voice to a point I made previously in Grand Committee: as the Minister has heard from noble Lords today, surely how a local authority meeting is conducted must be the responsibility of the local authority itself. In the case of these regulations, I accept that the provision is out of date, but perhaps the Minister will apply his consideration to that more general point. The provision of powers to detain infectious people was particularly controversial and it is right that it is removed, having been used only 10 times, the last being October last year.

I will raise a few points with the Minister and I first emphasise the need for clarity of communication from the Government. With that in mind, I refer to the comments of Dr Jenny Harries, the head of the UK Health Security Agency, which she made on BBC Radio 4’s “Today” programme. She said:

“If we all decrease our social contacts a little bit, actually that helps to keep the variant at bay”.


However, a spokesperson for Prime Minister Boris Johnson said that he does not share her view. I understand that the Government have sought to reassure the public that they have no plans to tell people to limit their social contacts with others, which is in direct contrast to the view of this leading medical expert. I would be extremely grateful if the Minister could clear this up for us today.

Food (Promotion and Placement) (England) Regulations 2021

Debate between Baroness Merron and Baroness Brinton

Tuesday 23rd November 2021 Grand Committee

[Baroness Brinton (LD) [V]]

My Lords, I declare an interest as a vice-president of the Local Government Association. I thank the Minister for his introduction to these regulations. The comments of the noble Lord, Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe, as chair of the APPG on obesity, were particularly helpful.

These regulations sit behind recently revealed alarming figures showing that nearly a quarter of children are overweight or obese when they start primary school. That figure has risen to a third by the time they leave at 11. The Government are right to be concerned about the overconsumption of food and drink high in calories, sugar and fat, which leads to obesity and associated obesity illnesses. I will come on to the regulations shortly, but from these Benches we want to make two other comments.

First, the Conservatives in government have consistently cut public health budgets to local authorities over the last six years. The King’s Fund says that, on a like-for-like basis, the 2019-20 budget is 15% less than that of 2013-14, including a more than 5% cut to obesity services. In addition, the reduction in school nurses as well as health visitors over the last decade has meant that some of the vital early face-to-face advice on nutrition to parents of young children has gone.

Worse, some of the excellent work done by chefs such as Jamie Oliver and by the campaign of Henry Dimbleby—both of whom over the years encouraged much healthier eating in schools—has been reduced if not lost. In fact, recent reports say that high-fat, high-carbohydrate foods such as the dreaded turkey twizzler are re-emerging on to school menus.

The second issue from these Benches is the decline in fitness of our primary school children. This has been a long-standing problem, but the sale of playing fields and focus in the curriculum on core subjects have all led to a reduction of time when children can exercise, take up sports and essentially get the habit early, which will also impact on their weight. This January, Sport England noted that children’s activity levels were down in 2019-20—pre pandemic—with only 44% of children and young people meeting the Chief Medical Officer’s guidelines on taking part in sport and physical activity for an average of 60 minutes a day. Now is the perfect time, as restrictions have been relaxed, to increase the time that young children can undertake sports and exercise. Can the Minister say what influence the Department of Health and Social Care has with the Secretary of State for Education in remedying this matter and what plans there are to fund more opportunities for young children to participate in sport and exercise?

Turning to the regulations, I note that this follows a decade of trying to encourage large supermarkets to reduce salt and sugar in their own direct products, as well as encouraging their suppliers to reformulate. However, not all of them have achieved enough, nor have they changed their attitudes towards promotions.

If the Grand Committee will permit me an anecdote, one of my adult children used to work as a buyer for a major supermarket, and its department had been asked to go back to suppliers to ask them to reduce sugar, salt and fat. My son was responsible for, among other things, dairy products. Most products and many suppliers were happy to work with the supermarket to achieve reductions, but both sides were completely stumped by one product: brandy butter. It has not just sugar and fat, but alcohol too. On this occasion, it was agreed there was very little they could achieve, other than to highlight its very red traffic light and recognise that it was a truly seasonal product that was not part of people’s everyday habits. But it is good they were thinking about it.

While the public health responsibility deal has improved matters a little bit, it is not nearly enough. One key area remains obvious. That is the influence of promotions targeted at children and their parents, both in store and on television. Other speakers have referred to multibuys, end-of-carousel promotions and queuing eye-catchers—far too often, junk food and sweets. While the public health responsibility deal has helped a bit in those larger supermarkets, it is certainly not enough, and it is good that healthier choices will be much more visible in shops and that buy one, get one free and three-for-two offers on high fat, sugar and salt products will be restricted.

On food scope, it was worrying to read in the past few days that a high level of juice in baby and toddler food, which has a very high fructose content, is not labelled as high sugar because the juice is natural and not added, processed sugar. Most parents of babies and small children believe that such products are not high in sugar. Surely, this needs to be added to the formulation list for HFSS products. Is the department looking at this?

It is right that environmental health food authorities should be responsible for enforcing this in localities, but I ask, as others have, whether there will be extra funding for environmental health to be able to carry this out. We need to remember that members of environmental health have many other responsibilities too, including the vital role during the pandemic of test and trace, working with local resilience forums. The Government cannot keep loading extra responsibilities on to beleaguered local authorities without funding them properly. Will there be funding for this for the enforcement bodies?

From these Benches, we regret that the food sector has not responded well enough to remove the need for this regulation, but we believe that the long-term health implications for our children are being damaged by current custom and practice. But this cannot be done without other actions too: funding more sport and exercise opportunities and funding enforcement are just two critical elements. The minimum of another five years to implementation, as outlined by the noble Lord, Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe, is too slow. Can the Minister please ensure that these changes are speeded up?

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

My Lords, I appreciate the intent behind these regulations and thank the Minister for his introduction to them. I want to comment on the current situation and raise a number of questions following on from those that we have already heard, because I feel that it is the detail of the regulations that is wanting rather than what they are about.

To emphasise the points that have already been made in this debate and have been heard in your Lordships’ House on many occasions, the UK has among the highest childhood obesity rates in western Europe. One in four children is overweight or obese when starting primary school, and the number is one in three by the time a young person gets to secondary school. These children are obviously more likely to become obese adults—let us remind ourselves that, at present, one in four adults is obese—and therefore at greater risk of conditions such as diabetes, heart disease, fatty liver disease, cancers and mental ill-health. As we know, the situation is worse in poorer communities. Indeed, one in three adults in the most deprived areas is obese, compared with one in five in the least deprived—a clear inequality if ever we saw one. The discrepancy among children is even more alarming: more than twice as many children are obese in the most deprived communities as in the least, and that gap has nearly doubled under this Government.

There is no doubt that in-store promotions are incredibly effective in influencing what we buy. Research shows that we buy 20% more than we intended when faced by promotions. Cancer Research UK has shown that greater volumes of high fat, sugar and salt are likely to be purchased by those who are already overweight or living with obesity, so we see a correlation between promotions and obesity, and it is right that these regulations seek to tackle that. So, yes, it is right to take action to address this situation, not by limiting people’s freedom of choice but instead by supporting them to make healthier choices.

However, these regulations alone will not be enough, and it is this point that I want to emphasise to the Minister. We need a radical obesity strategy that goes much further, ensures that families are able to access healthy food and supported local leisure facilities, and ensures that poverty can be tackled. Without that, there will be no levelling up. All we will see is a continuing widening of the already considerable gap between those who have the means to manage their weight and those who do not.