Local Government Finance Bill
Debate between Baroness Meacher and Baroness Hanham
Baroness Hanham
My Lords, I have listened with sympathy to the noble Baroness, but I think that she is tackling the wrong end of the spectrum. If it was as she suggested, we would certainly need to do something about it. I may need to give the following explanation.
The clause is intended to allow flexibility to create offences similar to those already in existence relating to council tax benefit. It does not create any additional offence beyond those. The offence that exists is under Section 111 of the Social Security Administration Act 1992. It is that of refusing or neglecting to comply with a requirement to enter into arrangements allowing authorised officers to access electronic records. It is also an offence under that section for a person to refuse to provide information or produce any document when required to do so in accordance with the legislation.
The information may be required from one of several classes of persons and bodies: for example, from banks, employers or utility companies. We seek the flexibility to create a similar offence in regulations where a person falling under those categories fails to comply with the requirement to supply information needed in relation to the council tax support scheme. To be clear, that would relate to circumstances where an individual or organisation holding information about a council tax payer has failed to provide information when required to do so. A small number or persons, such as the self-employed, might fall into both categories, but this is not about requesting information directly from vulnerable taxpayers, as has been suggested. I hope that the noble Baroness will be assured on that point.
Baroness Meacher
I am grateful to the Minister, but she referred to the fact that failure may not necessarily apply to the person themselves. My concern is that it can apply to a vulnerable person—just out of hospital, for example—who has not opened their mail and who unwittingly therefore falls foul of compliance with regulations. That is my concern. There may be all sorts of crimes in relation to bankers and what have you, but my concern is for vulnerable people. It seems from the wording that those people could be caught up in those crimes.
Baroness Hanham
My Lords, I am seeking advice from the Box about the words, “not necessarily”. My understanding is that this is not about the person concerned; this is about organisations from which information may be sought with regard to the ability to pay council tax or possible fraud. It is not about the individual taxpayer.
Perhaps I may read what has been passed to me, because it is important. To be clear, the powers that the noble Baroness seeks to amend relate to powers to require information about a council taxpayer—for example, about their income. Many investigations take place across the system. The powers recreate those which exist in relation to council tax benefit, as I said, and regulations made under the powers are subject to the affirmative procedure, so will be subject to debate in both Houses.
What the noble Baroness seeks to achieve is not part of the provision, because it does not affect the person themselves—the noble Baroness described accurately people who might not be able to give that information, who may be vulnerable and who should be looked after in a different way by the council.
I share the desire of the noble Baroness to protect vulnerable taxpayers, but the amendment will not, for the most part, impact on them. It affects powers that would apply only to those who hold information about the taxpayer—I say this again because we need to be clear about it—not to council tax payers themselves and only in certain circumstances which recreate offences which currently exist under council tax benefit. Those are criminal offences, as I outlined.
Council tax payers who accidentally or unintentionally fail to provide information to the local authority should not be prosecuted or convicted for a genuine mistake, but that is not what the power provides for.
I recognise the concerns expressed by noble Lords, but I think that the noble Baroness is shooting at the wrong fox. When the regulations come to this House, which they will in due course, we will be able to make that absolutely clear. I have done my best to assure the noble Baroness that this is not about individual taxpayers who should not be pursued, but is about where information may be required to see whether it is appropriate to undertake further investigation. I hope that with those explanations the noble Baroness will withdraw her amendment.
Baroness Meacher
I am very grateful for the Minister’s response and to my noble and learned friend Lord Lloyd, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay, and the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, for their contributions to this debate. I have to say that if I am shooting at the wrong fox, the fox is very well camouflaged because I do not see it. It is not clear to me—perhaps it should be, but it is not—that the person and their advice worker, who is also feeling very vulnerable in this situation, cannot be caught up in this legislation. Therefore, I ask the Minister for further discussions about this to see whether there is a way of improving the wording to clarify that the council tax payer and their adviser will not and cannot be charged with a criminal offence when they have acted in good faith.
Baroness Hanham
My Lords, it is not possible to change the legislation because we are in the last dying hours of passing it through this House, but the regulations will come to the House for the affirmative procedure. I am happy to have further discussions with the noble Baroness in the interim.
Baroness Meacher
I am very grateful for that reassurance. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Local Government Finance Bill
Debate between Baroness Meacher and Baroness Hanham
Baroness Hanham
My Lords, I acknowledge immediately that carers play a vital role in society. We all know of people who have provided enormous support and care to their families and others, and I accept exactly what the noble Baroness says in that some of them must feel very isolated and find things very difficult.
The Government expect local authorities to consider what provision to make for carers as part of their broader responsibilities to those with protected characteristics under the public sector equality duty. In exercising that duty under the Equality Act with regard to the design of their council tax reduction schemes, local authorities should have regard to the treatment of carers associated with those who are, for example, disabled or older people, given their general duty to eliminate discrimination. I am happy to clarify this point for the record and to bring it to the attention of local authorities that they have that responsibility.
County council tax benefit makes provision for people who are carers through a specific income disregard and a premium towards their applicable amount. Local authorities will be free to do the same under localised council tax support. To facilitate this further, the Department for Communities and Local Government, as I said last time, is working with the Department for Work and Pensions to ensure that local authorities will continue to receive data on current benefits and the universal credit. I cannot give the noble Baroness the news that I think she is asking for, but as soon as those consultations are in position I will make sure that she is made aware of them.
As I have said, local authorities already have an existing framework of statutory responsibilities in relation to individuals who are vulnerable, and I do not think it necessary to create new guidance or highlight specific groups, which would risk cutting across this. I reiterate that the introduction of the transitional grant will give those authorities that undertake to avoid significant cuts to awards in the first year time to find other, more helpful ways of managing the reduction.
Amendment 107ZD would remove the powers to make regulations creating criminal offences in new Section 14B of the Local Government Finance Act. The noble Baroness is looking slightly puzzled. Have we not got to Amendment 107ZD?
Baroness Hanham
I apologise; I noticed the noble Baroness’s face and was getting a bit alarmed.
We have been asked about how we are talking to local authorities about this and other recent legislation. We are regularly communicating with them and will use this regular communication to bring to their attention recent legislation relating to carers. I think that we had some guidance, which I am also happy to discuss with the noble Baroness and, if necessary, reissue.
I apologise to the House for not realising that Amendment 107ZD had not been moved. I hope that the noble Baroness will feel satisfied with my response and will withdraw her amendment.
Baroness Hanham
I could do that, but I notice the words of the noble Lord and for the moment I will leave out the transitional arrangements because what the noble Baroness is asking for is not transitional but permanent. I am afraid that again I am not going to be able to accept the amendment.
The noble Baroness will be aware that we have consistently made clear that local authorities must take into account the needs of vulnerable groups in designing their schemes. Our draft regulations set out how the default scheme will take universal credit into account. Local authorities may wish to take this into account as they finalise their schemes in relation to people of working age. Under our proposals for the default scheme, universal credit income will be assessed as part of the means test for council tax support. Therefore the level of income, whether from universal credit or earnings, will be calculated in the means test determining the level of award. It is open to local authorities to take a similar approach in their own schemes.
The amendment would require that central government provides sufficient additional funding for councils to cover them to provide 100% support for the groups the noble Baroness was speaking about. As I explained earlier in relation to the set of amendments on funding, the saving from localisation is an essential contribution to tackling the deficit. The amendment also completely undermines the strengthened incentive for local growth. Making councils financially responsible for providing support brings incentives to get back to work.
I note what the noble Baroness said about the small amounts that potentially have to be collected from vulnerable people. I reiterate that we have drawn vulnerable people to local authorities’ attention and indicated that we think they must be taken very much into account. These proposals leave this in the hands of local authorities, and we are not prepared to change that for this group. Therefore, I hope the noble Baroness will withdraw her amendment.
Baroness Meacher
I thank the Minister for her response. The difficulty we have is that local authorities are squeezed to pieces. I have been very close to local authorities until very recently. They are cutting CAMHS services. They are cutting all sorts of things such as care homes and support for elderly people in their homes. They are desperate. Therefore, they are not going to be able to be generous to people in the situation we are talking about today. It is only at central government level that one can make rational decisions about where the pain should strike. The argument of this amendment is that it should not strike the very poorest people any more. They have already been pinched a very great deal. On that basis, I want to test the opinion of the House.
Local Government Finance Bill
Debate between Baroness Meacher and Baroness Hanham
Baroness Hanham
My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for moving this amendment. Again, we had some discussion about it in Committee. I have some sympathy about the way in which these enforcements are carried out and the fact that, as the noble Baroness said, sometimes they may simply not be known about.
Again, this is a matter for local authorities. They have to recognise that they have to treat this issue sympathetically, pragmatically and sensibly. I know that it is felt that they do not always do that. I do not think that it is a government direction to do that but—I notice the expression on the noble Baroness’s face—I do think that we can do something in terms of guidance on how they go about this. I will combine, if I may, the two points about guidance because the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, raised the question of the MoJ consultations. We know that those have been concluded, and we also know that there has not yet been a result from them because we have been pressing to see whether we could get anything for today. The MoJ is looking at the question of bailiffs very widely, and we need to look at it from the point of view of enforcement of council tax issues.
I would like to suggest to the noble Baroness that we issue guidance from the DCLG, and that she and her advisers have an opportunity to talk to us about how that guidance should be set up and what should be included. I do not guarantee that we will take it all on board but I think that there is much experience around there that would be helpful. Once the MoJ comes to a conclusion and gets its guidance sorted out, we can pull these together so that there is a comprehensive document. Given that I understand the noble Baroness’s concerns and that we will respond in this way, I hope that she will be willing to withdraw her amendment.
Baroness Meacher
I thank the Minister very much for that understanding and good response. I very much welcome the fact that the consultation on the regulation of bailiffs has been concluded. I was arguing for that 20 years ago. People always say that it takes 10 years—or is it 20 years?—for a good idea to come to fruition. I am pleased that the department will issue guidance and would welcome the opportunity to talk about it. With those assurances, I am happy to withdraw the amendment.