Operation of Air Services (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2018

Baroness McIntosh of Pickering Excerpts

Tuesday 18th December 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

I do not. It is not just Michael O’Leary who has said that. I am trying to be briefer than usual, but if I was going to go on for longer I could mention many other examples. But if Michael O’Leary is wrong, we need to be told unambiguously that this is not one of the real threats from a no-deal Brexit.

Among the 700 statutory instruments required for the crazy prospect of a no-deal Brexit, the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee drew special attention to these regulations because they,

“give rise to issues of public policy likely to be of interest to the House”.

That is why I negatived them in Grand Committee, so that we could have a debate in the House. That statement is certainly true, and the more we know about the potential implications, the greater the interest will be in this—and, I think, the greater the anger is likely to become. For example, how many people realise that it is not only flights within the European Union that are threatened by a no-deal Brexit? The whole basis of our aviation relations with the rest of the world is via the European Union. In all, the EU governs direct UK aviation access to 44 other countries, including the US and Canada. My second request for a guarantee is: what guarantees can the Minister give today on a smooth transition, which means no groundings or delays, for these routes beyond? Remember—we are going to keep careful note of this.

Also, what steps have been taken to guarantee that our safety and maintenance regimes, which again are framed within the EU regime, will be acceptable to every country in Europe and the wider world after 29 March? According to the European Aviation Safety Agency, certificates previously issued by the CAA before exit day would no longer be automatically accepted in the EASA system after 29 March. Has there been any progress on a definitive answer to the massive implication of that statement? How is it to be resolved?

When we last discussed these matters, the Minister was unable to say how many extra staff the CAA has taken on, or will take on, for its hugely increased workload. This is one of the many costs of preparing for Brexit; it is already taking on more staff. Can she give us an indication today of how many staff will be needed to deal with route licensing in that hugely increased workload, as well as its other responsibilities? These are huge questions. We are only three months away from our potential exit from the European Union, unless some hand of fate intervenes. We do not want vague assurances that discussions are continuing. They will guarantee nothing, and both business and private travellers now need specific, hard and clear assurances from the Government who have led us into this cul-de-sac.

I am not going to press this to a vote today. I would have liked to have done so, but some of my colleagues have said, “Let’s give the Government an opportunity to answer these points”. It is not because I am in any way satisfied, but I will give the Government the opportunity to make their explanation and give us the guarantees today. I am sure that the Minister will recognise that this in no ways absolves the Government from finding a solution that avoids a no-deal Brexit, thereby eliminating the extremely serious threats to civil aviation that we are discussing. Let us hope that sense prevails and we are not faced with a no-deal disaster—otherwise I believe that the kind of things I have predicted today will cause tremendous problems after 29 March. I beg to move.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, I am delighted that this little debate has been called. I declare my interests at the outset, as a former transport spokesman in the European Parliament and a one-time rapporteur on a civil aviation report. Subsequently, I was a spokesman in the House of Commons for the Conservatives when in opposition.

I would like to put a number of small questions to my noble friend the Minister today. The House has been particularly well served by the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee’s report on these regulations, which raised a number of policy issues that need to be addressed. I must say that I find the amendment to the Motion that the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, has put before the House quite attractive.

My question relates to the implications for air service agreements with the EU and the EEA. There is also a broader question which does not seem to have been addressed in these regulations which I know is causing great concern. I omitted to say that at the time I married my husband he was an airline executive and is now in receipt of a pension from Delta Air Lines. I have not consulted him on my notes today, but perhaps it would have been better to have done so.

American carriers are concerned about cabotage and their right to fly internally within the EU. We are currently part of the common travel area. Will my noble friend address what happens when the United Kingdom leaves the European Union on 29 March regarding the fourth and fifth freedoms and US and other international carriers? That does not seem to be addressed in this regulation, but I know it will be exercising many of the airlines at this time.

Page 4 of the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee’s report raises a number of issues and I think the House will take a great interest in the Minister’s reply. Paragraph 16 states:

“In the event of no agreement, EEA airlines will now also need to apply for a foreign carrier permit to operate in the UK”.


As suggested, I would like to press the Minister about the basis on which these expectations are founded and what co-operation and negotiations she is having with EU carriers to ensure that the necessary permits will be in place before 29 March so that there is no gap in aviation post Brexit. How long does the Minister think it will take to apply for these permits? What cost will there be to the airlines in this regard? Will she take this opportunity to correct what I hope are incorrect newspaper reports over the weekend that passengers are being told not to fly after 29 March next year because it is all too difficult to know what rights will be in place and what permits will be required for passengers to apply for visas or permits to travel?

I would also be grateful for a response from the Minister on this question. When she referred to the current wet leasing arrangements, she said that this will be in relation to reciprocity. How will this carry on after 29 March, particularly as it is understood that carriers may not benefit from the current arrangements once we have left the European Union?

The amendment to the Motion tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, asks for UK membership of the European common aviation area. Does my noble friend have a date for the application that we intend to make to that area?

I shall conclude with a general point. I understand that these regulations might have been put forward as a draft negative, in which case I am not sure that we would have had the chance to consider them. If that is the case, the House was given a very clear understanding during the passage of the EU withdrawal Bill that no policy should be decided by secondary legislation and that all policy should be decided by primary legislation. My fear is that the statutory instrument before the House today is getting perilously close to determining policy. I hope that the Government will put down a marker that when it comes to other Bills, such as the Agriculture Bill and the environment Bill, no policy will be applied through regulation but will be in the Bill. When we were in opposition that was always our very clear understanding.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, I can well understand the sense of frustration that led the noble Lord to table his amendment. Indeed, “sense of frustration” is a massive understatement. The chaos which has prevailed in the Government for more than two years has turned lately to a deliberate intention to frustrate the will of the people and a determination to stifle debate in the other place and run down the clock to a point where MPs will be denied any meaningful vote. The chaos is not helped by the antics of the leader of the Official Opposition, to whom we would normally look for some guidance. A completely blank space is there, so it is good to see the spirit being shown here by the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes.

I was in Brussels at the weekend—I go there frequently for family reasons. I talk to people who live there, both British and many other nationalities. Over the months, I have noticed their sense of sadness turn to irritation and then to frustration; now, they are almost laughing at us, because of the chaos we are in. They are doing it with great sadness, because they have always looked to the British as the people who would get on with it and make the sensible decisions.

Last week, the EU Sub-Committee on the Internal Market, of which I am a member, reviewed the evidence that we had a year ago from representatives of the aviation industry. Then, they had brushed aside the possibility of a no-deal Brexit when we put that question to them as simply not a likely scenario or not credible. They also stressed the need for their industry to have the deal done by the end of August or September this year at the latest. We are now 70 working days away from 29 March. We are asking our businesses and our industries, and not just the aviation industry, to do an impossible job. Unless we just carry on as we are, it is too late for them to prepare for any change in situation.

This SI is part of the Government’s rather pathetic preparations for a no-deal scenario. When we discussed it in Grand Committee a couple of weeks ago, the Minister still managed to sound pretty confident, but a lot of plans have come unstuck since that time.

In Britain, we have the third largest aviation industry in the world. We are a nation that loves to travel and we have a highly competitive aviation market based largely on cheap air fares. If there is no deal, UK and EU airlines will lose the automatic right to operate services between the UK and the EU without the need for advance permission from individual states. The Minister told us that the Department for Transport expects to grant permission for EU carriers to fly to and from UK airports and for that to be reciprocated by other countries in the EU. However, a more recent report of the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee on another, related SI—the draft aviation safety regulations—indicates that the European Commission has confirmed that licences, certificates and approvals issued by the CAA before 29 March will no longer be automatically accepted in the EASA system by other EU countries after exit day. The DfT’s hope of mutual recognition after a no-deal Brexit may be overoptimistic.

One thing is for certain: the CAA will have to shoulder many more responsibilities, some of which are set out in this SI, in the other SI to which I referred and beyond. We will have to consider those other SIs in future. Can the Minister explain to us in detail what additional resources have been given to the CAA already and what more resources the Government plan to give it in future?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Sugg]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, for initiating this debate, and other noble Lords for their contributions. Following the speculation in the media over the weekend, I am also grateful for the opportunity to provide clear reassurance on the Floor of the House that planes will continue to fly after 29 March 2019, and that people can continue to book their holidays with confidence.

As I said, these regulations are an important element of this Government’s sensible contingency preparations. Obviously the debate has not focused quite on the detail; as the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, said, we focused on that in Grand Committee, so I will address my comments to the contributions from noble Lords.

In the amendment to the Motion, the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, calls on the Government to seek membership of the European common aviation area. That is a multilateral agreement and, as he will know, signatories to it are the EU and its member states, Norway, Iceland and the western Balkan states. We are already putting in place replacement arrangements with the eight non-EU signatories for that agreement. We have got three—very nearly four—of those agreements signed, and others are progressing well.

It would not be straightforward for the UK simply to sign up to the ECAA agreement. That would require the active consent of all the EU 27 and the eight non-EU parties to that agreement. As I said, we have arrangements in place with many of the non-EU parties. As for the EU 27, the Commission has been clear that it will negotiate separately on that. As the noble Lord points out, the ECAA agreement also necessitates full and continued application of EU legislation and, with regard to the interpretation of the agreement and the associated legislation, it is the European Court of Justice that will decide. As the noble Lord will be aware, the Prime Minister has set out red lines for the UK’s future relationship with the EU, one of which is to end the jurisdiction of the ECJ in the UK.

Civil aircraft are not at risk of being grounded after 29 March. That would be in nobody’s interests and is entirely avoidable. As Donald Tusk said earlier this year, he is,

“determined to avoid that particularly absurd consequence of Brexit that is disruption of flights between the UK and the EU”.

That confidence is shared by industry as well as the UK Government. Ryanair, to whom the noble Lord referred, last month reported that its forward bookings for flights to and from the EU remain strong, as we have seen across the sector. Its chief marketing officer was quoted as saying that even if we were in a no-deal Brexit, flying would be fine.

The noble Lord, Lord Adonis, mentioned Heathrow. He is quite right that we need to ensure that we have these regulations in place to avoid disruption. John Holland-Kaye of Heathrow said yesterday that he was confident that planes would still fly and people could book with confidence. But I understand noble Lords’ concerns and it might be helpful if I set out in a little more detail our position and the Commission’s published position on this.

We set out in September in our technical notices, to which the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, referred, that we envisage granting permission to EU air carriers to operate to the UK. In its own contingency action plan published on 13 November, the Commission set out that it would also bring forward measures to ensure that UK air carriers could operate to the EU. Explicitly, in its contingency planning note of 13 November regarding traffic rights, to which this statutory instrument refers, the Commission said that it will propose measures to ensure that air carriers from the UK are allowed to fly over the territory of the EU and make technical stops, as well as land in the EU and fly back to the UK. The Commission said that these measures would be subject to the condition that the UK applies equivalent measures, and we have provided that reassurance as set out in our technical notices and as this SI actually delivers.

On aviation safety, which is of course important both to ensure that planes keep flying and that we keep our passengers safe, the Commission has said that EASA will be able to issue certificates only once the UK has become a third country, which will not be until after we have left the European Union. But it said in its notice on 13 November that it would propose measures to ensure continued validity of such certificates for a limited period. Those measures will be subject to the condition that the UK applies similar measures. Again, we have set out that we will recognise the EASA certificates for up to two years in our technical notices. That position was detailed in the aviation SI that was laid earlier this month and will be debated in your Lordships’ House in the new year.

I can give an update since Grand Committee to show further progress. On 29 November, following a meeting between the EU 27, we received a further update from the Commission on its position. On market access, the Commission has confirmed that it will propose a regulation to ensure basic connectivity for EU-UK flights on the basis of reciprocity. On aviation safety, the Commission will propose a regulation for continued validity of type certificates and organisation approvals, and for UK certified parts and appliances placed on the EU market before the withdrawal date. On aviation security, the Commission has confirmed that it will adopt an implementing Act to list the UK for the one-stop security system, which will include cargo security. We do not yet have a timeline on that, but we are working closely with the Commission to deliver it. Noble Lords are quite right to point out the importance of the reciprocity in this, but we are delivering our commitments through this programme of secondary legislation. The EU has confirmed that it is doing the same.

Not all our aviation relationships are governed through the EU. We already have in place 112 separate bilateral agreements with other countries. They will continue as they are today as we leave the European Union. I can provide noble Lords with some updates on further negotiations around bilaterals. We have recently concluded a new bilateral air services agreement with the UK and the US. That is confirmed and signed. That will come into effect once the EU-US air transport agreement ceases to apply to the UK. That is a good deal that guarantees the continuation of our really important transatlantic routes. It means that airlines can continue to operate as they do now and it will allow them to develop new services.

We have also concluded agreements with many countries where the current arrangements are governed by EU-level agreements. We have concluded agreements with Albania, Canada, Georgia, Iceland, Israel, Kosovo, Montenegro, Morocco and Switzerland. We are working very closely with other international partners to agree replacement bilateral arrangements designed to come into effect with the other countries currently governed under an EU agreement. Those countries are Bosnia and Herzegovina, Jordan, Liechtenstein, Macedonia, Moldova, Norway and Serbia. Talks on those are progressing well. We expect these arrangements to be in place well ahead of exit day.

Some noble Lords asked about resources for the CAA. The CAA is of course making appropriate contingency preparations to deliver the continuity of service we want. That includes ensuring it has the appropriate staffing levels to deal with any increase in workload. It is recruiting 59 additional staff in preparation, 39 of whom are already in position. It is important to remember that the additional functions the CAA would take on in a no-deal scenario are limited. They are mostly for aviation safety, particularly in design certification. The EASA system works for the most part on the basis of automatic recognition of certificates issued by national authorities, so the CAA is already our competent authority for most approvals. As I said, both our and the EU’s positions have said that we will recognise those certificates for a limited period after we leave the European Union.

I turn to some questions from my noble friend Lady McIntosh. I again add my thanks to the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee for its continued work on our lengthy SI programme. It brings many SIs to the House’s attention, and I thank it for doing so. My noble friend asked about the CAA burden. I have already mentioned its resourcing. Specifically on route licences, as I said, the CAA already provides regulatory oversight on all UK-licensed air carriers and has the resource in place to ensure it can continue to provide that oversight. All holders of a type A operating licence, which is the majority of aircraft over 20 seats, already hold a route licence. All holders of type B operating licences have already been individually contacted and invited to apply for a free route licence from the CAA. The CAA is absolutely confident that those route licences will be issued in advance of exit day.

My noble friend also asked about reciprocity of wet leasing. Maintaining the current wet-leasing arrangement is the right thing to do for the industry as a whole, as well as for passengers. We are making every effort to minimise disruption to aviation on a no deal. Maintaining the current system for wet leasing of foreign aircraft is part of that effort.

Noble Lords raised some questions about the transport SI programme. We are expected to lay approximately 65 EU exit SIs. That number is approximate because ongoing EU business means that further legislation might come into force. Of those 65 SIs we have laid 36 to date. That is over half. Of those laid so far, 18 have been affirmative and have been debated on the Floor of the House or in Grand Committee, and 18 have been negative. There are 14 aviation SIs, 10 of which have been laid so far. Noble Lords have referred to the important issues of safety and security, and passenger rights and compensation. Those SIs have been laid and will be debated early in the new year. The remaining SIs will be spread between now and exit day to make sure we have a fully functioning—

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering]

I am very grateful for my noble friend’s response. I asked a rather techy question about fourth and fifth-freedom rights, but currently there are routes that fly, for example, from London through Shannon to the US. Has that been resolved in the context of the new UK-US agreement to which my noble friend referred?

[Baroness Sugg]

The current direct operations from the UK to the US will continue to stand. Obviously, if there are flights through the EU, that will be subject to the negotiations.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering]

To be very clear, I am asking about routes that I think still operate from London via Shannon in Ireland to the States: has it been resolved that they will continue?

[Baroness Sugg]

I am sorry if I was not clear. No, the current UK-US deal deals only with direct flights between the UK and the US. Obviously, a flight that stops off at Shannon will be part of our discussions with the EU.

I hope I have been able to provide reassurance on this. I think that the EU Commission has been very clear in setting out its position and we have been very clear in setting out our position. They are broadly the same position: they both rely on reciprocity. We are delivering our position through this series of statutory instruments and, as I said, the EU is working on a timeline of when it will deliver its position. While we are working hard to get parliamentary agreement to the deal with the EU, we of course have to continue to make responsible preparations to ensure that, in the absence of that agreement, we will be able to avoid disruption. This SI and the others we have debated and will debate over the coming months are a key part of those preparations. Both we and the EU have published contingency plans, of which these regulations are just one small element. Taken together, those plans will ensure that planes can continue to fly to and from the EU in the event of a no-deal exit. They will ensure that our legal and regulatory framework for aviation is ready so that flights can continue whatever the outcome of the negotiations.

Railways: East Coast Main Line

Baroness McIntosh of Pickering Excerpts

Tuesday 30th October 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Sugg]

My Lords, I am happy to give some more information on the timings. The first trains were due to enter service in December this year, but LNER has recently announced that these will not be introduced until early next year. There remain challenges relating to electromagnetic capability, ORR approvals and train design. Of course, this is disappointing for all involved, but when introduced the trains will provide more seats and faster journeys. As I said, the full rollout of the east coast fleet is still scheduled for completion in 2020.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, my noble friend will be aware of my interest in this. I congratulate the Government on their involvement in this programme. Can my noble friend put a date on when the trains will actually run the full route to London? How will this coincide with the improvements to King’s Cross station that have been announced?

[Baroness Sugg]

My Lords, I am afraid that I am not able to give a definite date. We are trying to introduce the trains as soon as possible, but there remain issues that we need to work through. LNER has said that it hopes to start introducing the trains early next year. On my noble friend’s point about King’s Cross, we are carrying out essential works on King’s Cross to replace the expired track and signalling to ensure that we can see the full benefits of the east coast main line enhancements.

Civil Aviation (Insurance) (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2018

Baroness McIntosh of Pickering Excerpts

Wednesday 24th October 2018 Grand Committee

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Sugg) (Con)]

My Lords, these draft regulations will be made under the powers conferred by the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 and will be needed if the UK leaves the European Union next March without a deal. The regulations amend EU regulation 785/2004, which sets out insurance requirements for air carriers and aircraft operators, and the domestic legislation made to implement this regulation.

EU regulation 785/2004 requires air carriers and aircraft operators to be insured in respect of passengers, baggage, cargo and third parties and against other risks such as acts of war, terrorism, hijacking, acts of sabotage, unlawful seizure of aircraft and civil commotion. It also requires air carriers and aircraft operators to demonstrate their compliance with the minimum insurance requirements set out in the regulation and makes provision for exceptional situations where a failure of the insurance market means that carriers are not able to demonstrate that they are adequately insured in respect of all the risks specified in the regulation.

The withdrawal Act will retain in UK law EU regulation 785/2004 in its entirety on exit day. The draft instrument that we are considering makes the changes necessary so that the EU regulation continues to function correctly after exit day, alongside the domestic Civil Aviation (Insurance) Regulations 2005, which were made to implement the EU regulation. This is essential to ensure that the regulatory regime in place after exit continues to make the UK a safe place for passengers to travel by air.

The changes that the draft legislation makes are technical in nature. Both the risks against which air carriers and aircraft operators must be insured and the levels of insurance required, which are measured in special drawing rights—an international reserve asset created by the International Monetary Fund—remain the same.

To illustrate some of the proposed changes: they ensure that the scope of the retained EU legislation is correct so that it applies to “the United Kingdom” rather than,

“a Member State to which the Treaty Applies”,

and ensure that EU processes set out in the regulation, which will not apply to the UK after exit, are replaced with equivalent domestic processes. The EU regulation also makes provision for certain legislative functions. For instance, Article 7 sets out the minimum insurance cover in special drawing rights per accident for aircraft according to mass, and the EU regulation provides that the values in Article 7 may be amended where this is required as a result of changes to multilateral treaties, such as the 1999 Montreal Convention.

As the EU legislative procedure prescribed in the regulation will not apply to the UK once it has left the EU, this SI makes provision for the Secretary of State to amend these values by regulations if, and only if, required as a consequence of changes to international treaties. To ensure that any use of these powers is subject to appropriate scrutiny, we have provided that any such regulations must follow the affirmative resolution procedure and be approved by both Houses of Parliament.

We remain confident of securing an agreement on aviation with the EU. Across Europe, people benefit from liberal aviation market access, and we are focused on securing the right arrangements for the future so that our aviation industry can continue to thrive and passengers across the UK and the EU can continue to benefit from high levels of connectivity and choice. However, irrespective of the outcome of negotiations, it is crucial that we prepare our regulatory and legislative framework so that it continues to enable the UK’s aviation industry to operate safely and effectively in all scenarios. I commend these regulations to the Committee.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, I congratulate my noble friend on moving these regulations. I will take the opportunity to raise a number of personal concerns. I declare an interest in that when I was an MEP, I was Conservative spokesman for aviation in the European Parliament for a number of years, and at the time I met my husband, he was working for Delta Air Lines.

I imagine that the list my noble friend gave is not exhaustive, but there are increasingly incidents of drones—indeed, there has been a near miss. Is this currently covered by the EU legislation, and will that also transfer? Is this an opportunity that my noble friend and the Government may wish to look at in order to increase the cover? As I understand, there was a near miss involving a passenger aeroplane at a London airport, which would have had devastating consequences. I remember once looking at my insurance policy when I lived in a rented flat in Brussels, and one of the exclusions was from a plane falling from the sky. I wondered what the chances were of that happening, until a cargo plane did just that at Amsterdam airport, and the consequences were obviously absolutely devastating, not just for the passengers on the plane but for those in the apartments underneath.

I do not know whether this is the correct time to ask, but can my noble friend confirm that we will continue to have reciprocal cover, so that we will recognise the insurance cover of European carriers and other international carriers who use our airspace, emanating from EU airports? I understand that that is covered at the moment, but reading the specialist press, there seems to be some concern about whether this will carry on.

As my noble friend will be aware, there is deep concern among the airline industry, and no doubt airports as well, that we will continue to enjoy use of European airspace, and that our membership of EASA, the European Aviation Safety Agency, will continue. Does that fall within the parameters of these regulations or will my noble friend have another opportunity to update those of us who are concerned?

In her latter remarks, my noble friend said that the value of the insurance cover will continue to be reviewed. From memory, these values are set by either the Geneva or the Warsaw convention. Is my noble friend able to tell us when these values were last reviewed and whether in future we will continue to review the values of the insurance cover on a multilateral, reciprocal basis with our existing EU partners and others, such as Norway and Iceland, with which we will have reciprocal arrangements—I imagine that through the EEA they are already members of EASA—or is it the intention of the Government to do that on a bilateral basis? I believe that would be highly regrettable.

Merchant Shipping (Monitoring, Reporting and Verification of Carbon Dioxide Emissions) (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2018

Baroness McIntosh of Pickering Excerpts

Wednesday 24th October 2018 Grand Committee

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for introducing these draft regulations. Before I get into the substance, I would be interested to know how much monitoring has happened in the UK up to now, both in the ports and on the seas between the ports. As the Minister implied, and taking the Dover Strait as an example, ships going in a south-westerly direction may be going from a continental port to somewhere else in the world but they are still in UK waters for a time. It would be interesting to know what monitoring has taken place inside and outside the ports.

I declare an interest: until last year I was a trustee of Plymouth Marine Laboratory, which developed a very interesting means of checking the emissions from ships from up to five miles away; it was mainly CO₂ but other emissions as well. It tested it off Rame Head in Plymouth. I think it found that the few naval ships that were running on this kind of fuel were the worst offenders but I am sure that has changed. It does not really matter; the point is that it could do it. The idea would be to put this equipment in the middle of the Dover Strait, for example, where you could check ships going both ways. I do not know where that has got to, but it is important that monitoring is carried out not just in the ports but out at sea where the emissions can still be quite dangerous.

Can the Minister explain what the difference will be when we have left the EU? If a ship in the Dover Strait has set off from Rotterdam and is due to end up in China, how will we monitor the emissions, let alone enforce any limits? What are we going to do about that? It is all very well having these regulations. I believe that there is another regulation which requires cleaner fuel to be burnt when you are travelling in the English Channel, which I think is to the east of Lizard or Scilly and up to the North Sea. I think that that is going to change in a few years’ time in order to cover the whole of the UK. Has that position changed as a result of our potentially leaving the EU? How will the monitoring be done?

It is good that the Minister has brought forward these regulations, but my doubts are around whether there will be any monitoring at all, whether there is any monitoring, and what action will be taken if a ship is found to be exceeding the limits. I look forward to hearing her comments.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, I will follow the noble Lord in the same vein by asking a simple question. I remind the Committee of my historic interest as the Conservative spokesman in the European Parliament on transport issues. Can my noble friend the Minister explain the current enforcement mechanism if either a UK-registered ship or an EU-registered ship breaches the carbon dioxide emissions limit? How does she imagine that that enforcement mechanism will change in the future? Presumably the whole point of having carbon dioxide emissions limits is to ensure that, along with every other form of transport, maritime shipping abides by air quality standards. Will we be able to enforce this unilaterally going forward?

I turn to something that is very topical. Is there currently any jurisdiction for the European Court of Justice over a breach of these emissions standards?

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

My Lords, I should declare that I am a board member of the Marine Management Organisation. I do not think that it conflicts with what we are considering here, but I mention it for the avoidance of doubt. I would like to respond to the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh, by saying that in her role as leading the group in the European Parliament when the Conservatives were part of the EPP, which is exactly where they should still be, she was a fantastic advocate for her position. I was in a different group that sometimes became involved in things like trans-European networks, and I noted that she was very successful in what she tried to do. She presented a difficult opposition.

I want to come back to a few points about carbon budgets, which is what this comes down to. In her remarks the Minister alternated between talking about carbon emissions and greenhouse gas emissions. There is a very important difference between those two phrases. I would be interested in understanding whether these regulations are in fact concerned with greenhouse gases or carbon dioxide emissions. I know that they refer to carbon dioxide, but most of the monitoring that is done is for greenhouse gases. Although emissions of methane are lower, it is a much more potent greenhouse gas. The difference is important and I presume that it is particularly relevant to the shipping industry, given its emissions.

I congratulate the Minister on reminding us that international shipping is the one area where we still have not solved this issue internationally. In aviation we have this rather dodgy—if I am honest—offset system. We will see how it works, but I suspect that the Amazon rainforest will not grow at the rate that aircraft emissions will. Given that sympathy, I am interested to understand whether, given the fact that we have international paralysis, and with the Government perhaps frustrated by the fact that that sector is not represented within European or British carbon budgets, the UK, as the Climate Change Committee has often advocated, will take on its leadership role in this area again and start to reconsider whether the sector should be. I am not expecting a policy decision today in the Moses Room, but I will be interested to know if the Government will start to look at that issue.

When it comes to individual matters of these particular regulations, I shall quote from the Explanatory Memorandum as the legislation refers to European regulations all the way through and it is very difficult to read, as I am sure the Minister understands:

“The amendments … remove what will become redundant requirements on the UK to make certain reports to the Commission”.


I wanted to clarify whether those requirements, whatever they are, or those reports will actually now be made within the UK anyway.

I am in particularly interested in documents of compliance. I do not know much about this topic although I am sure the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, is clued up on them. I presume that they will be issued by the Marine and Coastguard Agency. I am interested to understand whether these are existing EU systems. If they are, are we having to replace the IT systems? Are they ready? How many of these things do we issue at the moment and how many are we going to have to issue after March 2019, or after the transition period if we manage to come to an agreement? As we all know, IT systems and the increase in documentation and red tape are one of the biggest challenges in making Brexit work.

I have to ask about this ability to expel ships from a port, which we are getting rid of because we already have the ability to get rid of ships for safety and environmental reasons. I am interested to understand, in terms of EU legislation, what other scenarios the Government were thinking of in that legislation other than safety and the environment, in order to understand what rights we are forgoing.

Heathrow Airport

Baroness McIntosh of Pickering Excerpts

Thursday 7th June 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

Will my noble friend put my mind at rest? I should perhaps say in passing that I was Conservative transport spokesman in the European Parliament for nine years. There is concern across the north of England that a number of direct international flights, which have built up very successfully from regional airports such as Leeds Bradford Airport, Doncaster Sheffield Airport, and perhaps East Midlands Airport as well, will lose those direct connections as part of the deal that has been negotiated with the expansion of Heathrow Airport. That would be a very regrettable step, and I hope that my noble friend will take this opportunity to put my mind at rest. Will we continue to enjoy a raft of choices for international flights, directly from regional airports across the north of England, to make sure that we are not adding to congestion at London Heathrow?

[Baroness Sugg]

My Lords, I am happy to confirm to my noble friend that we absolutely continue to support regional airports. With an expanded Heathrow, we will still see regional airports growing and benefiting from long-haul flights, such as the recent introduction of the flight from Manchester to China, which has been so successful.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering]

My Lords, in the event that I perhaps did not express my question as well as I might, it is particularly the point-to-point regional flights between airports such as Leeds Bradford through Amsterdam, and onward to international connections, that I have in mind. Can my noble friend give me a categorical assurance that these will not be poached by Heathrow?

[Baroness Sugg]

I am afraid that I cannot predict exactly what is to happen with future flights. All I can do is to reiterate our support for regional airports. Another announcement we made yesterday was on making best use of existing capacity, which will allow regional airports to grow as long as they get permission from the local authority area. As I said, regional airports are supportive of Heathrow expansion and, even with that expansion, we expect them to continue to grow.

Rail Timetabling

Baroness McIntosh of Pickering Excerpts

Monday 4th June 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Sugg]

My Lords, the noble Lord is quite right to point out that many of these issues have been caused by not having enough trained drivers to run the routes. Manchester, the north-west and the north-east have been particularly affected because of the recently completed infrastructure upgrades such as the Ordsall Chord, at Liverpool Lime Street and the tracks between Manchester and Liverpool and Manchester, Preston and Blackpool. There is an issue around rest-day working for drivers on Northern, which has exacerbated the situation and means that it has been unable to train the drivers as quickly as it had hoped. However, I assure the noble Lord that driver training will be closely looked at by the review.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, does my noble friend agree that one of the problems with driver training is that small companies such as Northern trains and the TransPennine Express train the drivers and then the larger companies—such as the one that will now be called “London whatever”—poach them? A particular problem has emerged this week because not all the trains are now stopping at Northallerton and many passengers are being abandoned at York on their return journey from London because of the shortage of drivers. Will my noble friend agree to look into that to see how passengers can safely reach their ultimate destination?

[Baroness Sugg]

My Lords, I will certainly look into the point that my noble friend raises. She is quite right to point out that, because of these changes and the reduced timetable that has been brought in, trains are not stopping at every station. It is important that we deal with the train operating companies and do all that we can to communicate with them. However, I will certainly look at the provision available to transport passengers if they are not able to get off at the stop that they wish to.

My noble friend raised an interesting point about driver training. The necessary driver training was not completed in time and my noble friend is quite right to point out that sometimes train drivers move to other franchises. We are hoping to benefit from that in this situation. We are working across all train operating companies to see whether we can use other drivers on these lines to deliver better services. But the point about the transfer of drivers to different franchises is certainly something that I can take back.

Railways: East Coast Main Line

Baroness McIntosh of Pickering Excerpts

Wednesday 23rd May 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Sugg]

My Lords, that is a key question. As the noble Baroness pointed out, they have delivered an incredibly high passenger service and we should absolutely pay tribute to them for doing so. They have seen a number of changes in the train operating companies over the years. We can reassure staff that changes will not impact on their continued employment; it will be no different from a normal franchise change. Staff will be transferred and their existing terms and conditions of employment will be protected.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

Will my noble friend confirm that the new trains planned for the east coast route will come into service next year?

[Baroness Sugg]

I can confirm to my noble friend those services planned for next year will come in. The good news also is that we fully expect the new intercity express trains to be introduced on the east coast main line from the end of this year, as planned. That will bring an increase in seat capacity and enable reductions in journey times.

Rural Bus Services

Baroness McIntosh of Pickering Excerpts

Wednesday 14th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Sugg]

My Lords, I certainly agree with the noble Lord that buses can be a lifeline in rural areas. The Bus Services Act, which I mentioned earlier, provides extra powers for local authorities to work with bus operators to improve the bus services in rural areas. We are also encouraging local authorities to deliver better rural services through efforts such as our Total Transport pilot schemes, which have explored ways of commissioning publicly funded transport so that services and funding are able to go further.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, does my noble friend agree that one issue that has a perverse result is concessionary fares in rural bus areas? People travel out of towns into rural areas and the concessionary fares camouflage much of the subsidy that goes to rural bus fares. We support concessionary fares but, when they were set up, the local councils were not given the funding to run the level of service that has come into effect.

[Baroness Sugg]

My Lords, as I said, we fully support the concessionary fare programme and we want to continue the £1 billion a year we spend through local authorities to guarantee that service. It certainly supports bus services and that is something we want to carry on with.

Railways: East Coast Main Line

Baroness McIntosh of Pickering Excerpts

Tuesday 13th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Sugg]

My Lords, of course there were some errors in the granting of this franchise, and the suggestion concerning passenger numbers was indeed incorrect. We have learned some lessons and introduced new measures to deter overbidding, and have improved our financial modelling and stress testing. With this added testing, the department can forecast bids which are likely to default and exclude them in the future. On fares, the Secretary of State for Transport has underlined our aspiration to move from RPI to CPI but we must manage this transition properly and take into account staff costs, which are a third of operating costs.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

Will the Minister join me in congratulating the east coast operator on taking brand new trains into service in 2019? These are built locally to a very high specification, and will reduce the journey time to London considerably.

[Baroness Sugg]

My Lords, I certainly join my noble friend in congratulating east coast on this, which again will not be affected by the decision on who is to run the franchise. As my noble friend has said, the Azuma trains are due to start being introduced on the east coast network from the end of this year, and I am sure that passengers will enjoy the benefits.

Railways: Fares

Baroness McIntosh of Pickering Excerpts

Tuesday 12th December 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Sugg]

The noble Baroness mentions the freezing of fuel duty, which is obviously widely welcomed by motorists, following the Budget. I am afraid that we cannot freeze rail fares because by doing so, we would have to decrease investment in our railways, which is sorely needed.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

Can the Minister explain why, exceptionally, rail fare increases are tied to RPI, when every other cost of living increase is tied to CPI?